Will Dollhouse survive a 2nd season? by piratenews

After seeing Epitaph One, I will say yes.

What the show needs to do is focus on a multitude of characters other than just Echo, while still keeping Echo the one that grounds the show. I once heard in an interview that the biggest lesson for Joss from doing Angel was to have a larger cast of characters to work with. He has that here, so he should work with it. Get into Boyd's history, flesh out Sierra's story from Needs (and bring back Vincent Ventresca from The Invisible Man), show some growth from Topher, and show some more of Dewitt and why she believes the Dollhouse is a force of good. Do these things, but don't rush them, and it will survive.

The simplest way to start this would be to change the opening titles. This is the only Joss show to not feature the whole main cast in the opening titles, and I think it deters the viewers who aren't huge Eliza fans.

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People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Sunday, August 23, 2009 12:34 PM

RAHLMACLAREN

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb

As long as season 2 has several brilliant episodes to start with, to get good reviews.
(Good Reviews = 2 new viewers)

And if they move the show to Tuesdays. (Not gonna happen)

And if the PTB pass a law stating you can't preempt a Joss Whedon show, unless a MAJOR national disaster.
(It damn well better be a nuke!)

Then the show might make it past December.

--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Sunday, August 23, 2009 1:07 PM

WHOZIT

Just a little more news.

http://blog.zap2it.com/frominsidethebox/2009/08/keith-carradine-report
edly-to-play-with-dollhouse.html

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Sunday, August 23, 2009 1:34 PM

KINGEICHOLZ

does anything survive a 2nd season on FOX?

sikakeewlekcka

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Sunday, August 23, 2009 1:40 PM

WHOZIT

Quote:
Originally posted by KingEICHOLZ:
does anything survive a 2nd season on FOX?

sikakeewlekcka

Dark Angel
Tru Calling
BONES
House
24
The Simpsons
Family Guy
Cops
Americas Most Wanted
American Dad
King of the Hill
Bverly Hills 90120
Melrose Place
Alley McBeal...and for some strange reason "Til Death"

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Sunday, August 23, 2009 11:43 PM

DMAANLILEILTT

dark angel didn't and neither did family guy (it just got renewed alot later)

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Monday, August 24, 2009 1:50 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Will it survive a second season?

Only if it matures.

I don't mean to be cruel because I love Joss' work but Dollhouse felt a little juvenile.

It needs to take a leap forward and become as gritty as it implied -- given that the humour, which is a key factor in Joss' work was tempered, it now needs to engage the viewer on a more profound level, and give us questions that we really want to know the answer to.

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Monday, August 24, 2009 4:11 AM

I would love to see more Sierra. She really intrigues me. And multi-doll assignment like in Echoes would be good too.

@TheSomnambulist It feels juvenile because they're like babies with no personalities when they're not imprinted. That gives us little to attach ourselves to. They dont have their own personalities and that's what keeps it somewhat distant and unattached for viewers to connect to.

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Monday, August 24, 2009 4:29 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

They understand 'em just fine; they just don't care. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, August 24, 2009 5:29 AM

I don't think so. Unless it drastically improves and somehow finds an audience. I don't see either happening easily. This is one of those shows that is not simple to jump into. When you already have bad ratings it seems unlikely that anyone is going to come along and jump on board. I think it's destined to die this season.

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Monday, August 24, 2009 12:59 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Patchist wrote:

Quote:
-- It feels juvenile because they're like babies with no personalities when they're not imprinted. That gives us little to attach ourselves to. They dont have their own personalities and that's what keeps it somewhat distant and unattached for viewers to connect to.

Hi Patchist.

I wasn't really thinking in terms of the characters. It's more with the premise of the show and the way it's been dealt with. Aside from a few risqué outfits worn by Echo -- really the show could be made for kids.

Ideas need to be realised all the way through.

Ballard struggled to find the Dollhouse but clients seemingly have no such problem. Why? As an audience watching this we're asked to merely go along with the premise, but I think this is brushed over without any real explanation.

Similarly when Boyd and Ballard chase after Alpha and Echo, Alpha manages to evade them, yet Ballard and Boyd seem totally uninterested in that point. They're just content that they have Echo back.

In terms of the audience the reality of that situation really should be dealt with and with some (I say some because it is a fantasy show after all ) but some credibility.

There are other points but I don't want to unleash them all because really I liked the show. I just feel, given the competition out there (24, The Wire, Lost, Fringe, Dexter, Burn Notice etc) Dollhouse needs to aim as high -- for the sake of further seasons.

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Monday, August 24, 2009 3:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

Ballard struggled to find the Dollhouse but clients seemingly have no such problem. Why? As an audience watching this we're asked to merely go along with the premise, but I think this is brushed over without any real explanation.

Similarly when Boyd and Ballard chase after Alpha and Echo, Alpha manages to evade them, yet Ballard and Boyd seem totally uninterested in that point. They're just content that they have Echo back.

First, the whole Alpha thing got cut from the final cut of the episode. I assume it ran long and this just did flow well. But it is in the deleted scenes on the DVD.

As with Ballard not being able to find the Dollhouse but clients can, I find it easy to believe that the rich upper class citizens who use the Dollhouse can keep this secret from the FBI. First, it's a referral basis. You're not going to find the Dollhouse in the ads, and even if you did know about it you're not going to find the location unless the Dollhouse wants you to. Even if you knew the location of the building, you need to find a way into the office in the first place (unless you have a psychotic ex-doll to help you). Besides, rich people keep things from the authorities all the time (at least on film, I'm not gonna try to judge rich people I don't know), so it's safe to assume they can keep this from the Feds.

As for the show, I think it will keep it's momentum from the second half of the first season and finally break it's stride. It really isn't that hard for new viewers to get into right because there really wasn't a whole lot of ground breaking issues resolved in season 1. There's a rogue Doll out there (still), and the basic idea of the Dollhouse is easy to pick up. As long as they mention the Rossum Corporation in the first few episodes, there isn't a whole lot you need to know except for the growth of Echo. And I'm pretty sure they'll address that too in the beginning of the season.

It does need some good advertising, though. That never hurts.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Monday, August 24, 2009 7:42 PM

I agree, TheSomnambulist. Developing Echos character was the major plot in the first season. And the subplot was that the dollhouse is something more than just people for hire. I think that is what they should explore more. Get some of the dolls to talk to Ballard for him to continue with his investigation. I think that is what the bigger picture should be. Make the subplot for season 1 the major story line and make doll character development somewhat smaller and maybe give other dolls like Sierra and Victor some more lime light. It kinda feels one dimensional with the Echo story.

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Monday, August 24, 2009 7:42 PM

Ooups sorry for the double post.

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Tuesday, August 25, 2009 4:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
It really isn't that hard for new viewers to get into right because there really wasn't a whole lot of ground breaking issues resolved in season 1.

Really? What's a Doll? Why is this Ballard guy at odds with everyone else he works with? Who's this Whiskey and November they keep talking about? How come people keep calling that main character Echo and Caroline?

I think there are plenty of questions a brand new person would ask themselves if they tuned into a random episode. So many that I don't think they'd be able to understand what it is they're watching. They almost need something like the little intro monologues that Fox put before episodes of Firefly. "Here's how it is..."

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Tuesday, August 25, 2009 5:50 AM

BYTEMITE

You know, I really expected that Joss was going to use the child-like nature of the blank slates to inject some light-hearted humour and personality into the dolls. We saw that now and then, but I was disappointed that we didn't see more personality from the dolls. I understand the limits based on the premise... Still.

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Tuesday, August 25, 2009 6:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
It really isn't that hard for new viewers to get into right because there really wasn't a whole lot of ground breaking issues resolved in season 1.

Really? What's a Doll? Why is this Ballard guy at odds with everyone else he works with? Who's this Whiskey and November they keep talking about? How come people keep calling that main character Echo and Caroline?

I think there are plenty of questions a brand new person would ask themselves if they tuned into a random episode. So many that I don't think they'd be able to understand what it is they're watching. They almost need something like the little intro monologues that Fox put before episodes of Firefly. "Here's how it is..."

It's not like it's a show like Alias, Fringe, 24, or X-files that has a huge and complex backstory. Dollhouse has only 13 episodes of backstory, no much to learn. And most of the questions you posed can be easily answered with a few lines of dialogue or an engagement with the Dollhouse, which is a likely episode for the season opener.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
It's not like it's a show like Alias, Fringe, 24, or X-files that has a huge and complex backstory. Dollhouse has only 13 episodes of backstory, no much to learn. And most of the questions you posed can be easily answered with a few lines of dialogue or an engagement with the Dollhouse, which is a likely episode for the season opener.

Alias, Fringe, 24 and X-files are all based on concepts that everyone understands. FBI agents and such. Anyone can jump in and then start to wrap their head around the other worldly events in the characters world. Dolls are not a commonly accepted concept. If someone misses the season premier are they going to understand what the heck is going on in the next episode? This isn't a show about lawyers, doctors or law enforcement. They don't have a basic premise to latch onto. I think that's a big problem for building an audience at this point.

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Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

Alias, Fringe, 24 and X-files are all based on concepts that everyone understands. FBI agents and such. Anyone can jump in and then start to wrap their head around the other worldly events in the characters world. Dolls are not a commonly accepted concept. If someone misses the season premier are they going to understand what the heck is going on in the next episode? This isn't a show about lawyers, doctors or law enforcement. They don't have a basic premise to latch onto. I think that's a big problem for building an audience at this point.

But this is something that is repeatedly explained throughout the episode to date, and I don't see that changing in season 2 cause it doesn't really hinder the flow of an episode. DeWitt is has mentioned what the Actives do many a time, and since the imprinting process happens during every episode, so if someone sees 1 or 2 episodes they can pick it up. Then they go buy season 1 on DVD to catch up, it becomes profitable, and the show stays on. In a way, you want them to ask questions, just not too many. And I don't think there are a whole lot of them.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:45 AM

Well I don't think we're going to agree, but we'll see based on ratings who's hypothesis is more correct. :-P

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Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Well I don't think we're going to agree, but we'll see based on ratings who's hypothesis is more correct. :-P

It's funny that you said that, cause I was ready to agree to disagree with you.

EDIT: that sounds a little vague. What I'm saying, Zeek, is that you're right. We'll just have to wait and see
________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Tuesday, August 25, 2009 2:11 PM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
It really isn't that hard for new viewers to get into right because there really wasn't a whole lot of ground breaking issues resolved in season 1.

Really? What's a Doll? Why is this Ballard guy at odds with everyone else he works with? Who's this Whiskey and November they keep talking about? How come people keep calling that main character Echo and Caroline?

I think there are plenty of questions a brand new person would ask themselves if they tuned into a random episode. So many that I don't think they'd be able to understand what it is they're watching. They almost need something like the little intro monologues that Fox put before episodes of Firefly. "Here's how it is..."

It's not like it's a show like Alias, Fringe, 24, or X-files that has a huge and complex backstory. Dollhouse has only 13 episodes of backstory, no much to learn. And most of the questions you posed can be easily answered with a few lines of dialogue or an engagement with the Dollhouse, which is a likely episode for the season opener.

I say anyone who's not a complete moonbrain can jump in and catch up with a show like Dollhouse, X-Files, Fringe, LOST, or whatever, within a single episode. Sure, there's always some background detail missing, but it ain't exactly higher math. There's programmable Dolls; one is called Echo, the Other Victor, yet another one Sierra. By the time someone drops the name Whiskey, you should have gotten the picture. If not, it's back to your colorbook.

It's no different for, say, X-Files: one is the half-rogue young FBI agent, always on the lookout to uncover alien conspiracies, the other is paired up with him for the (original) purpose of debunking his theories. Together they investigate. Oh, and there's a bit of sexual tension between them. Trust me, people 'get' all of that inside of ten minutes.

And if the above weren't so, none of these shows could essentially be watched by anyone, 'cept for those lucky few that happened to catch the first episode.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:02 PM