So the Senate passed it... by Niki2

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

So the Senate passed it...

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:39
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Monday, November 23, 2009 8:53 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

...complete with the most "robust" public option we may be able to get (if that). Whaddya think?

I'm fascinated by all the talk about the public option, yet little or no discussion of the individual mandate. Why do you think that is? Health insurance lobby being so strong, it not seeming as important, or something else? Nobody seems interested in debating THAT (in the outside world, or here...)

And I see Reid got his 60...does that mean (as some suggested) that the holdouts only did so to get attention or "gimmes" like the one for LA, or what?

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Monday, November 23, 2009 9:30 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Here's a link to the legislation, if you got a few minutes to scan it.

Only 2074 pages.

http://finance.senate.gov/sitepages/leg/LEG%202009/111909%20patient-pr
otection-affordable-care-act.pdf

Section 1321, page 164, concerns the State Exchange programs.

Section 1331, on page 201, talks about establishing the State public option programs.

The minimum standard of coverage for the public option (and pretty much any option) is found in Section 1302(B) which starts on page 103.

Sure would like to see a CRS summary.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 23, 2009 2:38 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Really? I was under the impression that they'd voted to move the debate about the bill forward, not that they'd voted on the bill itself.

A witty saying proves nothing. - Voltaire

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Monday, November 23, 2009 3:14 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
Really? I was under the impression that they'd voted to move the debate about the bill forward, not that they'd voted on the bill itself.

Yinyang wins a hot fudge sundae!

Yes, they've voted to move forward with debate. Now the real fun begins. :)

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Monday, November 23, 2009 3:28 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Oh, yeah, big fun. I'm planning on making popcorn, turning on C-SPAN, and just enjoying the sparks fly.

But, I really wish they would break up health care reform into smaller chunks. The length of this bill is ridiculous.

A witty saying proves nothing. - Voltaire

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Monday, November 23, 2009 4:40 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

My blood sugar must be getting low 'cuz I used to be excited by this debate, but now I think whoever "wins" just means they get to choose how to f*ck it up.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:50 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
My blood sugar must be getting low 'cuz I used to be excited by this debate, but now I think whoever "wins" just means they get to choose how to f*ck it up.

Oh it's not just you, I think that prettymuch sums up how most if not all of us feel about it.

-F

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Tuesday, November 24, 2009 4:13 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
My blood sugar must be getting low 'cuz I used to be excited by this debate, but now I think whoever "wins" just means they get to choose how to f*ck it up.

Oh it's not just you, I think that prettymuch sums up how most if not all of us feel about it.

-F

Maybe it's the Whine Flu? Sorry... sometimes it helps to pun...

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, November 24, 2009 8:38 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Sorry, if I wasn't clear that all they voted on was to BEGIN the debate, I apologize for the misunderstanding. I kinda assumed everyone here was aware of that, politically savvy as you guys are.

I'm in the same place as you exactly, Piz:

Quote:
I used to be excited by this debate, but now I think whoever "wins" just means they get to choose how to f*ck it up

It's gotten so far beyond ridiculous for me that I gave up paying much attention.

Still curious, however, as to why everyone is all hung up on the public option, yet nobody's talking about the individual mandate, which I think is incredibly insidious and, no matter what ends up, a total gimme for the insurance companies?

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Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:04 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
My blood sugar must be getting low 'cuz I used to be excited by this debate, but now I think whoever "wins" just means they get to choose how to f*ck it up.

Yup.

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Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:04 AM

JONGSSTRAW

It's the best national debate we've had in many years, although the only real debating it seems takes place in the media, not in Congress. There it's just about how much "bribe" money each Dem holdout needs to sell his vote to Harry Reid. But I really hope it passes in the long run. 65% of Americans are against Govt-run Healthcare, so I want to have it in place as the centerpiece of the Republican comeback in 2010 and 2012. Obama is now toxic, politically speaking. His 6 trips to NJ to campaign for the loser Corzine in one of the staunchest Dem states was just a sneak peak of what lies ahead for 435 Representatives next year. Everyone's getting voted out regardless of Party. Repubs should take back the House with ease. Same with the 30-something Senator seats up for grabs. Bye Bye Reid, Dodd, and so many others. So yes, give us that 2000 page healthcare bill. By the time Acorn & SEIU execs and staff are getting their Healthcare Advisory Offices set up, the change in power will arrive just in time to dismantle it all, piece by piece.

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Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:06 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:

Still curious, however, as to why everyone is all hung up on the public option, yet nobody's talking about the individual mandate, which I think is incredibly insidious and, no matter what ends up, a total gimme for the insurance companies?

Media focus. Ask why they don't want people to think too much about how bad of an idea the individual mandate is, and I guarantee the answer you'll think up has dollar signs attached to it.

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Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:12 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
It's the best national debate we've had in many years, although the only real debating it seems takes place in the media, not in Congress. There it's just about how much "bribe" money each Dem holdout needs to sell his vote to Harry Reid. But I really hope it passes in the long run. 65% of Americans are against Govt-run Healthcare, so I want to have it in place as the centerpiece of the Republican comeback in 2010 and 2012. Obama is now toxic, politically speaking. His 6 trips to NJ to campaign for the loser Corzine in one of the staunchest Dem states was just a sneak peak of what lies ahead for 435 Representatives next year. Everyone's getting voted out regardless of Party. Repubs should take back the House with ease. Same with the 30-something Senator seats up for grabs. Bye Bye Reid, Dodd, and so many others. So yes, give us that 2000 page healthcare bill. By the time Acorn & SEIU execs and staff are getting their Healthcare Advisory Offices set up, the change in power will arrive just in time to dismantle it all, piece by piece.

GlenBeck is steering you wrong, Rappy; you should stop taking all your talking points from him. This Republican tidal wave you envision may look larger than it really is, given that fewer than 20 people in 100 in this country self-identify as "Republican" today. And if Obama's appearances in New Jersey tanked Corzine, then you'd have to agree that Palin's and Beck's endorsements of the TeaBag candidate in the New York 23rd also tanked THAT candidate's chances, yes?

By the way, Palin's approval numbers are hovering a little under HALF what Obama's numbers are. There's your great white hope, right there. Her numbers are about equal to Dubya's at his lowest point - just around 23%.

Let me know how it works out for ya.

Oh, by the way - do you think the Democrats' "bribe money" would be better spent trying to buy votes from guys like John Ensign? Maybe they could "gift" some of that money to his mistress, like he had his daddy do for him last year, when he was supposed to be insuring that the Republicans didn't lose any seats in Congress.

And how did THAT work out for ya?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:15 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
By the time Acorn & SEIU execs and staff are getting their Healthcare Advisory Offices set up, the change in power will arrive just in time to dismantle it all, piece by piece.

Hmm. Maybe. I hope some of the parts in the bill about insurance coverage dropping will stick, because there are regular people getting hurt by insurance company policy failing them.

Seeing as ACORN and SEIU are just more special interest groups, I don't mind seeing their asses handed to them. Don't really understand the interest in the media about them, they only represent a small portion of the many sinister interests catering to both sides. But good riddance to ALL of them.

The public option... At times I want it, other times I think it's just going to be a massive screw-up/screw-over. Wish things were single payer and simple again, and wish we could figure out ways to help people who need it.

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Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:26 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

By the way, Palin's approval numbers are hovering a little under HALF what Obama's numbers are. There's your great white hope, right there. Her numbers are about equal to Dubya's at his lowest point - just around 23%.

Let me know how it works out for ya.

If you weren't such an arrogant and ignorant little prick you might know some things in the world. For example Sarah Palin, according to new Rassmussen Poll, is only a few points behind Obama in popularity. She's risen from 23% to the low 40's in a week and a half, and she is not running for any office. She may never hold an office again. Obama Reid Pelosi are tanking faster than the legitimate poll takers can poll, or that NBC polls can manipulate to show some positivity. Shove that little statistic up your pee goo. And just wait until next year when she is out there campaigning against the scum that votes for Obama's plans to destroy our economy. We'll see who it works out for.

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Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:16 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

Still curious, however, as to why everyone is all hung up on the public option, yet nobody's talking about the individual mandate, which I think is incredibly insidious and, no matter what ends up, a total gimme for the insurance companies?

The individual mandate is a done deal. It is unconstitutional, and a total screwing of the people, and a giveaway to the insurance companies, who are loudly opposing the whole thing publicly while laughing all the way to the bank. But it's gonna happen, period. That one's over- we're all gonna get screwed.

The "reform" is a total sham with the individual mandate, but without the public option. At least the public option would give folks a way to be covered without contributing to the profits of a private business.

So watch your Congressman-- if he votes for the mandate without the option, that'll tell you whether he's really interested in helping the people, or just in serving them-- up-- to the big business...

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Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Uhhh, ignoring the various assinine invectives (no self-control, have we?), I wonder if you'd give us cites to your "facts"? Mike is wrong about hers being half of Obama's, but the facts are:

Quote:
Sixty-six percent of Americans do not want to see Sarah Palin run for President in 2012 and 62 percent don't believe she has the ability to be effective in the office, according to a CBS News poll conducted Nov. 13-15.

Republicans don't want to see her run by 48 percent to 44 percent, independents pan the idea by 62 percent to 26 percent and you can guess what Democrats say.

The results are a little different for Republicans on the question of whether she has the ability to be an effective president with 43 percent saying "yes" and 39 percent saying "no." Independents say "no" by 58 percent to 29 percent.

Thirty-eight percent see Palin unfavorably compared to 37 percent who have a positive view of her with 37 percent saying they "have not heard enough," which is kind of a remarkable figure given her place in the spotlight since John McCain chose her as running-mate last year. An ABC News/Washington Post poll released earlier on Monday found 52 percent seeing her unfavorably and 43 percent regarding her favorably.

Republicans see her favorably by a 52 percent to 16 percent margin with 32 percent saying they haven't heard enough to express an opinion. Democrats view her unfavorably by 57 percent to 4 percent with 37 percent in the no opinion camp, and independents see her unfavorably by 36 percent to 21 percent with 40 percent expressing no opinion.

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/11/16/even-republicans-are-dubious-a
bout-palin-running-for-president/ Palin: new chapter, same challenges
If Sarah Palin's book tour is an opening salvo in a run for the presidency in 2012, she faces a steep uphill climb: a majority of Americans in a new Washington Post-ABC News poll say they would "definitely not vote for her."

Most - 60 percent - in the new poll say the former Alaska governor is not qualified to serve as president, and her favorability rating remains stuck well below what it was when she first emerged on the national scene at last year's Republican convention.

But she continues to have strident supporters, particularly among the Republican base, lifting her political influence. Overall, 52 percent of those polled say they see Palin in unfavorable terms, but among Republicans, her positive rating soars to 76 percent. Nearly two-thirds of all white evangelical Protestants hold favorable views of her.

If the goal is the White House, public opinion is now tilted against the idea: asked if they would consider voting for Palin in 2012, 53 percent say they would not. Just 9 percent say they would definitely vote for her; another 37 percent say they would consider it. The 53 percent who say they would definitely not vote for Palin now is nearly twice the percentage who said so of her 2008 running mate John McCain in the spring of 2006 (28 percent). Back then, 42 percent said they would definitely not support Hillary Clinton for the presidency.

Women tend to be more critical of Palin than are men, with female Democrats and independents more apt than their male counterparts to view her unfavorably, see her as not qualified for the presidency and say they would not support her candidacy.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/behind-the-numbers/2009/11/sarah_pali
n_new_chapter_same_c.html?wprss=behind-the-numbers

These are current; I had to hunt, because her older numbers are totally disasterous.

As to Obama's numbers, it's necessary to take into account a couple of things. First, the country's having bad times; that's always reflected by the President's numbers. Nonetheless, in an 11/24 Rassmussen, Obama's numbers (approve/disapprove) were 45/54http:// www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/
obama_approval_index_history. Given that and the fact that most Presidents' approval numbers drop after the honeymoon period, that's not bad.

Another puts him as of 11/19 at 55% approval to 39% disapproval http://www.pollingreport.com/obama_fav.htm , another at 49%/44% http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/data/popularity.php

His job approval numbers, throughout November, in average of polls is 50%/43%, with even Fixed News putting him at 46%/46% http://www.realclearpolitics.com/polls/

Polling Report has him more positive than negative (again, Fixed News 46/46) all through November, from numerous poll sources. http://www.pollingreport.com/obama_job.htm

Numbers go up and down daily, and polls are fickle, but 60% and 62% "unelectable" pretty much speaks for itself, and I'm unsure where you get the idea that she's "only a few points" from Obama. It's easier for someone NOT in public office to be viewed more favorably, if you don't know, as they're not responsible for anything.

Quote:
Public figures have “favorable” ratings; they also have “approval” ratings. Since Sarah Palin doesn’t have a job outside of her book tour, her “favorable” rating is all she has. Not only is it lower than Barack Obama’s favorable rating, it’s lower than a credible national candidate can really stand — Republicans argued that Hillary Rodham Clinton might be unelectable as a presidential candidate when her “unfavorable” rating was a good 10 points lower than Palin’s.

http://washingtonindependent.com/68788/the-approval-gap

As to

Quote:
Obama Reid Pelosi are tanking faster than the legitimate poll takers can poll, or that NBC polls can manipulate to show some positivity

polls are taken almost daily, so that's not possible.

Would you please link to the cites from where your numbers came?

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Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

"New", thank you:

Quote:
The individual mandate is a done deal. It is unconstitutional, and a total screwing of the people, and a giveaway to the insurance companies, who are loudly opposing the whole thing publicly while laughing all the way to the bank. But it's gonna happen, period. That one's over- we're all gonna get screwed.

The "reform" is a total sham with the individual mandate, but without the public option. At least the public option would give folks a way to be covered without contributing to the profits of a private business.

So watch your Congressman-- if he votes for the mandate without the option, that'll tell you whether he's really interested in helping the people, or just in serving them-- up-- to the big business...

Pretty much what I was guessing, tho' I still find it interesting that nobody's talking about it. I've said from the moment the mandate showed up that "mandate but no public option = NO!", but I don't think I have to worry about my representatives, as they are Boxer/Woolsey. IF one or the other voted the above, it would only because they believe "something's better than nothing", but I highly doubt it.

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