This really pisses me off; the anti-choice folks just keep finding ways, but this one really burns me:[quote]Critics Say Bill Could Lead to Unfair Murder..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Utah Abortion Bill: Punishing Miscarriages or Preventing Crime?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, March 5, 2010 08:23
SHORT URL:
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Monday, March 1, 2010 10:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


This really pisses me off; the anti-choice folks just keep finding ways, but this one really burns me:
Quote:

Critics Say Bill Could Lead to Unfair Murder Charges Against Expectant Mothers

A controversial abortion billin Utah meant to prevent planned assaults on unborn children may have opened a loophole that could allow women to be charged with murder if their reckless behavior causes miscarriages.

Gov. Gary Herbert has not indicated whether he will sign the bill into law or veto it, although supporters of the bill say they expect him to approve it. If Herbert does nothing by March 8, the measure automatically becomes law.

The bill was prompted by the case of a pregnant teenager last year who paid someone to beat her, hoping to cause a late term abortion.

But critics argue that allowing homicide charges if a woman's "reckless behavior" causes the unborn child to die opens up the possibility that prosecutors could seek a murder conviction against women who miscarry after not wearing their seatbelts or returning to a partner who has a history of physical abuse.

"This could be misconstrued or construed too aggressively," Democratic Utah state Sen. Ross Romero said. "We all make bad choices in our lives and most of them don't come with criminal burdens. This one does, or may, I should say."

Romero was one of only four senators to vote against his chamber's version of the House bill sponsored by Republican state Rep. Carl Wimmer.

Having passed through both chambers, the bill now sits on the governor's desk. He has until March 8 to either sign or veto the bill. If he does neither, it automatically becomes law.

Herbert's spokeswoman Angie Welling said in an e-mail that he has not taken any formal position on the bill.

"He understands that the intent of the bill is not to criminalize miscarriage, nor to restrict a woman's ability to seek a legal abortion. However, he is also aware that concerns exist about possible unintended consequences of the legislation," Welling wrote. "That will be key to his analysis of this legislation, as it is with all other bills with which he is presented."

Introduced to the state Legislature in the fall, the bill was in response to a 17-year-old pregnant girl from Vernal who was arrested and accused of paying someone to beat her to force a late-term miscarriage.

The attempted abortion failed and the child was born healthy. Aaron Harrison, the 21-year-old charged in the beating, pleaded guilty to second-degree felony attempted murder. He was sentenced to up to five years in prison, according to The Associated Press, but could serve as many as 20 for other unrelated felonies.

A judge, however, set the teen girl free, ruling that her actions were protected by the state's definition of an abortion. It was a ruling that shocked several of Utah's lawmakers, including Wimmer.

"It revealed a weakness and a loophole in our law, which we did not know was there," he said. "We thought all along, we have a criminal homicide law that deals with unborn children and we thought that law was adequate and we found out that it was wanting."

More at http://abcnews.go.com/Health/utah-abortion-bill-punishing-miscarriages
-preventing-crime/story?id=9955517&page=2




"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Monday, March 1, 2010 12:29 PM

BYTEMITE


Well, it's from my state, so that makes it interesting. I have to kind of process this, but this is basically the stupidity that results when desperation goes up against ideology.

I didn't even know we HAD a "criminal homicide law that deals with unborn children." What. And second degree felony attempted murder? I can't tell if that's for the "unborn child" or for beating the girl that paid him. The whole thing is like a circus of the grotesque. I don't even try to make sense of either side of the abortion issue anymore.

It's likely that the law in question is unenforceable anyway.

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Monday, March 1, 2010 5:58 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Again, the sensible solution would be solving the problem at the other end with education, access to contraception, and actually respecting peoples privacy...

But no, instead they close off all other avenues, quite deliberately, and then rant, rave and scream when the girls they've backed into a corner resort to the only choices they have left.

They're fucking monsters, them anti-choice people, and I make no bones about sayin so.

-F

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Tuesday, March 2, 2010 7:43 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yep, Byte, the guilty plea to "second-degree felony attempted murder" was the guy who beat her at her request; HOMICIDE charges are what's proposed against a mother they deem to have acted "recklessly", which leaves it open to MURDER charges...which blows my mind. Call or write your guys if you would, this is a couple of steps over the line by the anti-choice folk, in my opinion! It's sheer stupidity and unconscionable.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, March 2, 2010 8:03 AM

BYTEMITE


Um, yeah. That's really not going to work. You know how Utah is the mormon capital of the world? Did you notice how there are all of four Democrats in our (never voted out, permanent Republican supermajority, extremely corrupt, fighting the formation of a citizen initiative petitioned ethics council) state legislature who opposed this?

All but one of the democrats in our state legislature are from my county already. Most of those democrats are Blue Dogs. So our legislature is composed mostly of Blue Dogs and Republicans, and the ones who supported this are getting a nice campaign check from the mormon church.

The only thing that could conceivably be done is to try to get the case (and the law) challenged in the state (where it will lose) and then the federal supreme court (where it has a 60/40 chance of losing). Public outcry isn't going to budge them, because public support is on the anti-abortion side of the issue around here.

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Tuesday, March 2, 2010 8:19 AM

MINCINGBEAST


wow. why stop at murder? surely, protecting the god given constitutional rights of the pre-born justfies extending the criminal law even further!

for example, a pregnant woman who consumes caffeine has plainly exposed her child to a dangerous substance. this justifies a battery charge, at the very least, if not attempted murder.

and why stop with women? lets be fair. for example, a man whos briefs are too tight may actually be damaging his testes, hence millions of unborn children! plainly, he should be charged with attempted genocide, and if genocide is not a cognizable claim, at least a few million counts of assault or attempted murder.

how do i run for congress in utah?

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Tuesday, March 2, 2010 8:20 AM

BYTEMITE


I have trouble understanding how a attempted murder charge can be leveled at someone who was paid to administer the beatings, especially considering how murder clearly wasn't the intention. They already charged the guy for whatever homicide charge passes for abortion law here in Utah, the attempted murder charge suggests double jeopardy, doesn't it? Shouldn't it be assault and battery?

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Tuesday, March 2, 2010 8:26 AM

BYTEMITE


mincingbeast: I've gotten the distinct impression from my aunts and uncles that just having a menstrual period in their lives, ever, is an egregious sin. I can only assume that having menstrual periods BETWEEN a pregnancy is even worse, what with eggs being wasted and leaving the poor little children spirits still waiting in the preexistence without a proper physical vessel.

My uncle is a bishop. My aunt has had SEVEN children. She's had so many children, she actually caused damage to her kidneys and bladder. My uncle STILL claims he "hears" children he's supposed to father "calling" to him from the preexistence. Even considering he was putting his wife in mortal danger at the prospect of having more goddamn kids!

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Tuesday, March 2, 2010 8:35 AM

MINCINGBEAST


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I have trouble understanding how a attempted murder charge can be leveled at someone who was paid to administer the beatings, especially considering how murder clearly wasn't the intention. They already charged the guy for whatever homicide charge passes for abortion law here in Utah, the attempted murder charge suggests double jeopardy, doesn't it? Shouldn't it be assault and battery?



i too, have trouble understanding the charge. allow me to bang my head on the desk really, really hard. i call this "putting on my prosecutor's hat."

ouch, ouch, ouch.

ok, now i think i understand the charge.

whether or not murder was the conscious objective of the dude is besides the point. murder requires intent, "malice aforethought", which may be satisfied in some jurisdictions, presumably Utah, with recklessness. essentially, knowing indifference of the consequences of your actions might be enough to sustain a murder charge.

double jeopardy is a bit more complicated. i dont know all the facts, but a non-final judgment, or different legal standard, are a good way around that. its about the conviction, not the charge.

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Tuesday, March 2, 2010 8:40 AM

BYTEMITE


Hmm, okay, that makes sense. It's still fscked, and I'm troubled by how broad a definition "recklessness" could carry. It's like "resisting arrest" or "disorderly conduct."

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Tuesday, March 2, 2010 8:47 AM

MINCINGBEAST


byte: agreed that recklessness is troubling standard. perhaps there's a place for it in the law, but not in applying it to desperate teen age mothers. i wonder if the gut-punch would've been necessary if she had other options.

also, i recoil at horror at the thought of your uncle, the bishop. must be nice to have so many cousins, though.

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Tuesday, March 2, 2010 10:38 AM

FREMDFIRMA



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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Mincing, thank you for my first real giggle of the morning. And Frem, my first out-and-out laugh.

Byte, oh gawd, my extreme sympathies! Utah's even more deserving of sympathy than Texas! My husband having been born in and having family in Idaho, I fully understand, and then some! Jim's brother was in auto insurance; he became Mormon (as his wife was) partly to keep his business. And had six kids. He was a HORRIBLE father.

Yes, I fully understand the pregnancy thing, and it sickens me.

Did I ever mention I was a "dunked" Mormon? Got out lickety-split once I found out about their racist policies. My only excuse is I was young...

Can't you folks do ANYTHING about that idiot Hatch? Like drown him or something??? He's such an irritant...


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 12:59 PM

BYTEMITE


At this point, I think Hatch has a secret cabal of cultists that perform virgin sacrifice to give him limited immortality.

But yes, he's scum. A little old lady once asked him why he was supporting legislation to block medical imports so she could actually AFFORD her medicine, and he yelled at her. Total douchebag, and very much in the pocket of "I'll support whoever can pay me the most money."

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 1:51 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
wow. why stop at murder? surely, protecting the god given constitutional rights of the pre-born justfies extending the criminal law even further!

for example, a pregnant woman who consumes caffeine has plainly exposed her child to a dangerous substance. this justifies a battery charge, at the very least, if not attempted murder.

and why stop with women? lets be fair. for example, a man whos briefs are too tight may actually be damaging his testes, hence millions of unborn children! plainly, he should be charged with attempted genocide, and if genocide is not a cognizable claim, at least a few million counts of assault or attempted murder.

how do i run for congress in utah?




According to the Constitution, the unborn HAVE no constitutional rights, as they are not U.S. citizens. John Yoo will confirm this.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 2:02 PM

BYTEMITE


mincingbeast: I have ten uncles total. They all have kids...

Fun filled old-fashioned family Christmas is an unusual dilemma.

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 2:21 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Er... Byte? You should go easy on yourself about "antisocial" behavior. If I lived in that kind of society, I'd be antisocial too.

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 2:25 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
At this point, I think Hatch has a secret cabal of cultists that perform virgin sacrifice to give him limited immortality.



You have him mistaken with Dick Cheney, who actually DOES start his day eating babies.

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 2:29 PM

BYTEMITE


Actually, even though voting doesn't necessarily help, I do try to think up ways I could do SOMETHING. Some of my ideas could be considered anti-social. Haven't yet come up with anything FEASIBLE, but I hope to, someday.

The only thing around here that makes everything worth it is the MOUNTAINS. The mountains around here are amazing, and they're five minutes from my house.












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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 2:46 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


/threadjack

When I asked people why I should move to LA they said... Well, there are the beaches. And the desert. And the mountains. In other words... no reason at all to move to LA! (But maybe some reasons to move out.)

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 2:48 PM

BYTEMITE


Actually, I like hiking. So I've actually been most of the places I posted pictures of. Anyway, I'm just in love with the land. It makes it so I can put up with anything.

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 2:54 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


It's beautiful country. It would be hard NOT to feel blessed. When I visited my sis many years ago (she lived in Grand Junction) we drove through Telluride, Silverton and other places.... There were peeps there who would take any menial job, or eke out a living on the land, just to be so close to the sky. I desperately hated coming back to LA.

But the winters were brutally cold, and the older folks (that's me, now) opted to move down from the mountains to where they could survive. Are the winters very harsh where you live?

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 3:01 PM

BYTEMITE


Oh, I see what you did. Sorry about that, misunderstood what you meant. Move AWAY from LA to the beach/mountains.

It depends. Usually we spend most of our winters in the thirties getting a crap town of snow, with occasional inversion days where it's in the teens. And when we get inversions, we often end up trapping a lot of car traffic pollution in the valley. You probably heard that the Wasatch front has the worst air quality in the nation, well, that's why. But once again, if you go up INTO the wasatch, you can get out of it all. And if it gets too cold for you, you can head for the southern part of the state, which has it's own kind of desert beauty, and which tends to stay in the 50s for winter.

This was a very odd year. The southern part of the state has over seven feet of snow, and the north part of the state has no snow in the valleys and only 100 inches or so in the mountains. It's stayed forty to fifty most of the winter up here.

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 6:27 PM

FREMDFIRMA


I fail to see the detriment of being "anti-social" towards a 'society' as sick and sociopathic as most of america has, and it's not really unique to america, as I am in full agreement with Michael Zielenziger as to the cause of Hikkikomori, or reclusivism - that in many case it's a variation or combination of a AvPD and PTSD, but rather than rooted in a beings weaknesses of psyche, in cases like yours and mine it's more rooted in misanthropy, a general feeling of disgust and mistrust towards our own species and pure unadulterated revulsion towards it's social structures.

Our own humanity, hidden that it is beneath the layers we coat it with to protect it, recoils with horror at a society we cannot condone, and yet requires at least some degree of participation for survival, thus causing all manner of mental static that often enough manifests itself in outright hostility.

There's no crime in being anti-social towards a society that is, itself, a crime against humanity.

-F

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 7:36 PM

BYTEMITE


On that note, I tried to pick a career that I hoped would keep me out of the office as often as possible for my own sanity.

I am not out of the office as nearly as much as I hoped. I've started to believe everyone there is plotting against me, no matter how much I tell myself it's ridiculous.

The moment something goes wrong, people get called into the boss, and it's who gets the finger pointed at the fastest? And guess who, being fairly new, is the bottom sucking lowest rung on the totem pole? My perfectionist tendencies do not save me from inexperience, and every failure is a nasty blow.

This past week has been an entire week of people telling me, okay, you need to get ready for such and such happening today, and then it not happening, and I swear my boss is just doing it to compile reasons to fire me for not meeting performance expectations.

I like people in an nonpersonal way, I'm nice to people, but I can't ever, ever trust them, it's against my nature, even people who I consider close friends. I don't let anyone I know in real life in to anything that that could potentially be vulnerable. I don't let close friends who write and draw who I trust more than my own family see stuff I write or draw. And my own family, HELL NO.

As expected, I do not function well in an office environment. Everything creates a constant buzz level of anxiety and depression, and often my only relief is obsessive internet browsing and posting. That is, when I'm not busy being annoyed by the damn kids my age who keep talking way too loud about their sex lives or that one guy who's always yelling into his phone.

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 9:58 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Have you considered a career as a nightwatch person ?

Seriously, it's a good fit, you don't see many people, and you can be friendly to them in a distant sorta way - and the suspicious paranoia factor is actually a plus cause it encourages you to *make sure* of things like a good guard should instead of assuming.

Not to mention by your very nature, you, muchlike myself, will soon enough have at least a basic plan of action laid out in your head for everything from a lost pet to a building fire.

It's quiet, and honestly most DS I know are nocturnal anyways cause the psychic "noise" of all them other people when they're awake is a serious annoyance, grinding on your nerves to where ya can hardly think...

You get to be fairly autonomous, and for most things, at least in light residential, you are who they contact when something goes wrong, instead of who they yell at - you get a default level of respect, and by conduct, example and reputation you'll get more.

And best of all, you get LEFT THE HELL ALONE, unless someone really needs you.

It's got you written all over it, doll.

-F

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 2:47 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


I like people in an nonpersonal way, I'm nice to people, but I can't ever, ever trust them, it's against my nature, even people who I consider close friends. I don't let anyone I know in real life in to anything that that could potentially be vulnerable. I don't let close friends who write and draw who I trust more than my own family see stuff I write or draw. And my own family, HELL NO.



Wow. I thought I was the only one like that. I know it sucks, Byte, but that was actually kind of a RELIEF for me to read.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 4, 2010 5:43 AM

BYTEMITE


I might try security if I do get fired. I wouldn't really have anywhere else to go if that happened.

Um, wow, that really was a thread jack. So, how about brainstorming stuff that could be done to get people to abandon this stupid law?

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 7:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Gawd, Byte, it's exquisite! Being a mountain lover, I'm in love!! We only have one, a puny 2,000-footer, but I've been on every trail on it (and there are tons). I grew up next to the Santa Cruz Mountains, again puny in comparison, but frequently visited my ranger friend in the Sierras, so I just learned to love mountains. The most spectacular ones I ever saw were in a trip to Glacier, and I've always wanted to go back.

Don't think I could handle your snow, tho', I'm not a snow person. Here we can hike 365. But I know what you mean about wanting to stick; Jim's son lives in Mammoth, when there's no snow there's no work, he's got back problems, but will take ANYTHING that keeps him in Mammoth or Jackson Hole because he loves the mountains so much. Takes guts, in my book.

I envy you. I'm not "jealous" of you, because of the snow, but I do envy you the chance to get out to spoectacular places like your pictures.

Okay, that's my contribution to the thread jack (it's a lovely one)...back to that law!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 7:46 AM

MINCINGBEAST


excuse me, let me gets this out of my system: omgwtf teh byte is teh moar-man, for serious?

all better.

this law seems is part of a larger narrative of incremental restrictions on abortion. we start with late term abortion bans, and criminal laws that treat genetic material as people, with the goal of stigmatizing abortion. still not sure what the end game is: punishing people for being wicked?

and if anybody needs the good that abortion can bring, it is mormons of utah. note that if this sounds bigotted, it probably is.


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Thursday, March 4, 2010 8:01 AM

BYTEMITE


I have an idea. What about reframing the debate?

The most commonly recognized motivating factor here is a desire to legislate morality over autonomy of self and body. Choosing to abort is compared to choosing to murder. Which for me I have to admit is a somewhat convincing argument once a foetus has developed to a point where it can be self-sufficient outside of the womb (possibly with medical support). Ultimately my conclusion is that you can't legislate people to NOT be selfish, even if that selfishness could lead to someone's death, selfishness itself is not a crime. I also conclude that you can't really legislate what someone can and can't do with their body.

Another aspect could be psychologically a continuing desire to legislate "how women should act," that they should be good mothers and not be promiscuous. I'm less sold on this, but it could be a factor.

So how much of this is a desire to punish teenagers for being unruly and "bad?" It seems like there's a generation gap that looks on today's youth with horror, as delinquency waiting to happen, and intervention must be harsh to counteract the downward slide.

Could we repaint this as a "socialist" movement for people to inform on and punish other people's kids? Parents in Utah are pretty protective, and around here it's actually not so much the pregnancy that upsets people (yay babies! mentality and promotion of adoption) but the teenage premarital sex and unruly teen issue. And if parents are willing to still support their daughters through pregnancy rather than let them have abortion, then how much does the sex/unruly teen thing really bother them all? There's either a huge disconnect they have between sex (EVIL!) and pregnancy (Babies!) or they don't care enough about the sex to stop them from supporting the daughter, which means both cases are exploitable.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 8:39 AM

MINCINGBEAST


very thoughtful response regarding the disconnect between sex and babies. but in all fairness to crazed fundamentalists everywhere, it probably runs both ways. the hypothetical teen who uses abortion as birth control, and has like a million STDS, probably doesn't connect sex (yay! sex! i'm hot!) with babies (wtf? babies! they may interfere with being hot!).

i've long suspected that objection to abortion has less to do with the sanctity of innocent life, and more to do with the fear that somebody, somewhere, might be enjoying sex. i have this fear myself sometimes, but for whatever reason, my puritanical inhibitions have not made me into a pro lifer.

i do suspect that each generation assumes the one that follows is degenerate and vile, and requires lots of harsh correct to keep it in order.


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Thursday, March 4, 2010 8:56 AM

BYTEMITE


Hmm, true. And I supposed when the fundamentalist teenagers switch over from "Sex! I'm hot/loved/important" to "Sex! EVIL!" that they must carry that disconnect with them.

But ultimately, the main problem with abortion is that technically it's kinda murder. So we need a long-term solution that both gives people choice AND phases out the need for abortion.

And the best way I can think of to start is right here, fighting this fight. The only way long term to end abortion is to provide enough education that there aren't unwanted pregnancies, only wanted pregnancies. But you can't provide that information to the people who need it to help their decision making/preventative efforts because of this element of "teenagers! EVIL!" that wants to punish teenagers for being teenagers. So you have to fight them first, through high profile cases like this to shed light on the whole issue of rights for young people before adulthood.

It'd also help if we could figure out a way for sex ed to both be informative and reasonably thorough (short of showing or engaging in the act of sex), but also appropriate enough to address and respect regional sensitivity. I say we use PN as a sounding board, if a sex ed program doesn't freak him the hell out, it's appropriate for just about anyone.

EDIT: And oh GOD no I'm not a mormon. I've never even been "dunked," and I'm grateful I was in a household that didn't stress the importance of it. I've never been a member of the church, not now or ever. My extended family thinks my family are satanists. o.o Well, except my grandmother, who has something like common sense, tolerance, and decency in the expression of her faith.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Mincing, you nailed what I have long believed. There are articles and facts showing that, unable to do away with Roe v. Wade, the anti-choice folk are finding myriad other ways to make abortion either illegal or unobtainable. It worries me. Whatever their reasons, I hate it that they're finding so many effective ways to obstruct womens' choice, and circumvent or prostitute (no pun intended) the law.

I don't care what their reasons are; killing doctors and creating a situation where there are fewer and fewer abortion providers in the country are WRONG, period.

Oh, and Byte, it never occurred to me you might be Mormon yourself! In the time I've been here, whether we agreed or disagreed, I've had more respect for you than to believe that!!!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:42 AM

MINCINGBEAST


Momentary thread hi-jack: I have conflicting attitudes towards mormons that may prevent me from being fair in regards to this Utah law. See, one of my uncles pulled a Glen Beck, and converted so he could marry a mormon gal. Accordingly, I have hella many mormon cousins that feel like alien grafts on my family. One of them got married at 18 so that he could have sex. Now, still in his 20s, he has 5 kids that he can scarecely support, all of whom have bizarre names that only a mormon could think of. so i can't help but think abortion, reproductive rights, and mormons, without snarling a bit.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 10:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Boy, Mincing, does that fit with my mentality. The Mormon friend who got me involved was in a family of six kids, everyone tithed, and believe it or not, their last name was "Loveall". Seriously!

And yes, as I mentioned, Jim's brother in Idaho "became" Mormon for his insurance business, as hard-core Mormons only do business with other Mormons.

Smells of cult, cult, cult...and I fully acknowledge I'm prejudiced in my attitude, too. Nonetheless, I think the law is disgusting.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, March 5, 2010 1:42 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Quote:

i've long suspected that objection to abortion has less to do with the sanctity of innocent life, and more to do with the fear that somebody, somewhere, might be enjoying sex.

As Ethan put it - "Bah, they're just pissed cause THEY can't get laid anymore..."
Quote:

i do suspect that each generation assumes the one that follows is degenerate and vile, and requires lots of harsh correct to keep it in order.

Oh yes, a revolting and disgusting philosophy that's been off and on through many cycles of lesser and greater influence, the latest of which purported by that scumbag Dobson, and helped along by Sembler and Lichfield with the "All children are lying manipulators" bullshit meme they came up with to excuse their own actions and discredit the testimony of those abused by their hellcamps.

And all of that rooted in the nature-vs-nurture "debate", which for the most part as phoney as creation-vs-evolution and for much the same reasons, only with the added vileness of the "born wicked" excuse for the twin evils of failing completely as a parent AND abusing your kids.

Oh, but it's not MY fault, they were "born evil"... yeahhh, right.

The same way it *used* to be all the womans fault cause they were lesser, sinful creatures, uh huh, and we shoved THAT myth down their throat and made them choke on it, one down, one to go!


Anyhows, as I said, best handled at the OTHER end, by preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place - but the same dickheads who are so anti-abortion have NO room to bitch in my eyes when they do everything they possibly can to demolish all the means and education by which someone *could* avoid it, so for ME - it puts them in the moral position of having *deliberately* backed someone into a corner, and then having the goddamn NERVE to be upset when they resort to the only thing left to them...

As for bias, well it might do to mention that I've seen a pregnant Catholic girl deliberately poison herself to "make sure she got both" complete with a very vitriolic note towards her parents and local clergy crumpled in her tiny fist when I found her - since one of them "nice catholic boys" her family was shoving her at wouldn't take no for an answer and hoped the result would force a marriage upon her (something with too damn much historical precedent for my liking) and provide him with what he wanted and who cared what she thought of it.
She hired me to put mister nice guy in the hospital, and I woulda done it too, but she lost her nerve while I was en route and poisoned herself instead.

I've also worked as security for a clinic doctor before, who didn't much like the idea at all, but the fact that I very much *wanted* those assholes to try something was a tremendous discouragement to em - it's one thing to risk being arrested and maybe charged with petty crime, yet another to risk being beaten onto deaths very doorstep by someone who would ENJOY it oh so very much - and why the hell are they howling at the girl instead of the guy who ran out when the cake started rising, ehe ?

Bah, fuck it, people are GOING to have natural, human desires and act on them, and to try to dehumanize people in the name of religion warps them, the more repression and suppression, the more warped the form of those feelings when they do finally express, cause they WILL DO SO, like a tree root versus a sidewalk, nature ALWAYS wins.

It's unnatural, it's inhumane, and IMHO - THAT, is what qualifies as Evil.

Not that all Mormons are so fucked up, thankfully, one place we do get along right well is that most Mormons I know treat their kids a hell of a lot better than mainstream society, but the core church is very torn on that aspect cause by doing so you make it all but inevitable they will eventually see that church as an object of oppression and rightfully ridicule it.

Anyhows, I try to stay away from them kinda folks, especially the protesters, cause, well... should I happen to catch em out of the public eye, I ain't sure I could control the temptation to firmly instruct them on what it FEELS like when someone else decides THEY have the right to decide what to do with YOUR body (in this case, your body and my heavy boots!)

Grrr...

-F

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Friday, March 5, 2010 8:00 AM

MINCINGBEAST


frem, i like the cut of your jib, even if you are an anarchist propagandist and apparent hitman.

thank you for pointing out that those most opposed to abortion are also most opposed to contraception and sex education--things that could make abortion more rare. supports my obvious thesis that it's about sex-negativity, and not life. i cherish my puritanical inhibitions, but claim no right to inflict them upon others. anyway, in my more negative views, i beseech the devil, who is in hell, to impregnate all pro-lifers with retarded monster babies (ala trigg palin). i feel guilty, and stupid, for these thoughts, but they are tremendously satisfying nonetheless.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 8:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


How about just impregnate all of them? Don't need retarded children (and I wouldn't wish THEM as parents for any disabled kid!), just overload them with kids and see what happens. Uh, no, that wouldn't work, would it? They'd have them all, then indoctrinate them, and we'd be even MORE swamped with their mentality.

I see the "pro-life" thing as control as much as anything else. Men having control over reproductive rights, and women manipulated into going along with it. After all, the "church" is controlled by old men... But then, I'm a bit of a sexist, so don't mind me...


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, March 5, 2010 8:23 AM

MINCINGBEAST


good point.

i just made a solemn vow to impregnate all pro-lifers. including the dudes. that'll show 'em. that'll show 'em all!

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