There are some sick, sick people in our country. Or do you think she was justified? Personally, I agree with Medvedev:[quote]Russian President Medvedev..."/>
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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
Tennessee Mother Ships Adopted Son Back to Moscow Alone
Sunday, April 11, 2010 8:22 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Quote:Russian President Medvedev Calls Boy's Return a 'Monstrous Deed' A Tennesee mother's decision to send her 7-year-old adopted son back to Russia, alone and with a note that she no longer wanted him, has horrified officials and adoption experts in both countries. Angry Russian officials are calling for a halt to all U.S. adoptions until the two countries can hammer out a new agreement that spells out the conditions and obligations for such adoptions. Russian President Dmitry Medvedevcalled the boy's abrupt return "a monstrous deed." The Russian president told ABC News' George Stephanopoulos in an exclusive interview that he had a "special concern" about the recent treatment of Russian children adopted by Americans. Torry Hansen of Shelbyville, Tenn., put 7-year-old Artyem Saviliev -- renamed Justin Artyem Hansen in the U.S. -- on a plane to Moscow's Domodedovo airport with a note in his pocket saying she was returning him, that the boy had severe psychological problems and that the orphanage had lied about his condition. "I no longer wish to parent this child," the note read, calling the boy a liability. "This child is mentally unstable." Hansen wrote to the Russian Ministry of Education. "He is violent and has severe psychopathic issues/behaviours. I was lied to and misled by the Russian Orphanage workers and director regarding his mental stability and other issues." Adopted six months ago, the boy was traveling on an expired U.S. visa. He was taken to a hospital for a medical evaluation. Video footage showed Artyem looking bewildered as he is taken from the police station to the hospital by Russian social service workers. "On every level putting a little kid on a plane and shipping them somewhere is horrific behavior. If you have a problem, you deal with the problem," said Adam Pertman, executive of the Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute. "It is certainly the equivalent of abandoning your child." Sheriff: 'There May Be No Crime' Bedford County Sheriff Randall Boyce told ABC News that he had tried to visit Hansen Thursday and again today, but was told by Hansen's lawyer "they said they will meet with us later, sometime next week they said." "This is a touchy deal and I'm not sure if anything illegal has been done or not," Boyce said. The sheriff said, "Our plan is to have the adoption agency check with the people in Moscow or whatever part of Russia they're in and check with this child and see if they see signs of abuse." Boyce said he intended to move slowly and carefully in his investigation. "We're breaking new ground here," he said. "There may be no crime at all when you really get down to it. Maybe some bad judgment in the way she turned this child back." The Tennessee Department of Child Services also is looking into elements of the case. "DCS looks into child abuse and neglect," said Rob Johnson, the department's director of communications. "By statute we look into cases alongside law enforcement. We look at it from a child welfare point of view. "We have tried to visit the Hansen family today," Johnson added. "We are working alongside law enforcement on trying to interview them." Of particular interest to DCS would be the safety of any children that may be in the Hansen home, Johnson said. "We do not track international adoptions," Johnson said. "They are private adoptions."
Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:57 AM
FREMDFIRMA
Monday, April 12, 2010 6:28 AM
Monday, April 12, 2010 6:34 AM
CHRISISALL
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: Sickening, isn't it?? Blows my mind someone would be so totally...well, can't think of a word!
Monday, April 12, 2010 6:56 AM
AGENTROUKA
Monday, April 12, 2010 7:03 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AgentRouka: This is what makes international adoptions sort of scary, to me.
Monday, April 12, 2010 7:06 AM
Monday, April 12, 2010 7:12 AM
BYTEMITE
Monday, April 12, 2010 7:15 AM
Monday, April 12, 2010 9:29 AM
Quote:Originally posted by chrisisall: Quote:Originally posted by AgentRouka: This is what makes international adoptions sort of scary, to me. Thing of it is, you are GOING to get a kid in some kind of pain, barring babies. To adopt in this way means you HAVE to have a big heart, not a small mind. The serious Chrisisall
Monday, April 12, 2010 9:51 AM
Quote:Top officials from the U.S. State Department plan to travel to Moscow this week to push Russia to allow adoptions by U.S. families to continue. The trip comes after a U.S. family sparked outrage by sending an adopted 7-year-old boy back to Russia alone. Officials in Moscow have threatened to halt all adoptions by U.S. families. "We were certainly shocked, as was everybody, about the return of the child. We are hoping to work with the Russians to continue the adoptions of children," said Michael D. Kirby, principal deputy assistant for consular affairs. "We have had over 50,000 children adopted from Russia. The vast majority are doing great here in the United States." Families in the United States have adopted 14,079 children from Russia in the last five years, including 1,586 in 2009, according to the State Department. Russia is the third most popular country for U.S. families adopting children internationally, behind China and Ethiopia. The family that returned the boy said he showed violent and psychotic behavior -- and that officials in Russia had given no warning. "I am sorry to say that for the safety of my family, friends and myself I no longer wish to parent this child," Torry Hansen wrote in a note in the child's backpack. She added that Russian orphanage workers "lied to and misled" her about the boy, Artyem, who was renamed Justin Artyem when the family adopted him last year. In a phone call with CNN, Hansen's mother, Nancy Hansen, said the boy "had a hit list of people he wanted to hurt." No. 1 on that list: his American mom. The final straw, the adoptive grandmother said, came last week when the family caught him trying to start a fire in the home. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, in an interview with ABC News, called the boy's return a "monstrous" act. Kirby, speaking to CNN's "American Morning," said, "We have to talk about how we can follow up after the children are adopted. First, are the parents properly screened in the process? Are the agencies that are screening them doing all that they could do to ensure that they are prepared to be new parents?" He added U.S. officials also must work with Russians "to make sure that the children themselves are also fully understanding what is going to happen to them as they move to a new country in a strange place."
Monday, April 12, 2010 1:59 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: Do you think mankind can ever get to the point of viewing children as people? Hasn't happened throughout history, so while I desperately wish it were possible, I have my doubts.
Monday, April 12, 2010 2:11 PM
Quote:Originally posted by chrisisall: Niki, you know that "World peace" answer that runs its course in beauty pageants? If I could do ANY one thing, I'd create a world family city for kids that need homes, parents, food, love, cartoons... Take care of and love kids, and you'd GET world peace, IMO.
Monday, April 12, 2010 7:13 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Fremdfirma: I *do* however, find it tremendously offensive that everyone involved, including the media, is treating the kid like a pet or unwanted package, and not a single bloody one of em have asked HIS opinion on the matter whatever. THAT foolishness I mean to change, right up to my last very breath. -F
Monday, April 12, 2010 8:42 PM
MAGONSDAUGHTER
Monday, April 12, 2010 11:31 PM
Monday, April 12, 2010 11:44 PM
Tuesday, April 13, 2010 4:25 AM
JONGSSTRAW
Tuesday, April 13, 2010 4:59 AM
Tuesday, April 13, 2010 5:04 AM
Tuesday, April 13, 2010 5:19 AM
Tuesday, April 13, 2010 6:26 AM
Quote:The driver hired to deliver an adopted Russian boy from the Moscow airport to the Russian education ministry last week said he was "shocked like a crazy man" when he realized what was happening. Seven-year-old Justin Artyem was sent back to Russia alone by the Tennessee family that adopted him because of what they said was violent and psychotic behavior. Arthur Lookyanov said the child was in "a good mood" during the two-hour ride Thursday morning, drawing pictures and playing with his Spiderman toy most of the time. But near the end of the ride, he cried, saying he missed "Grandma Nancy," Lookyanov said. It was his adopted grandmother, Nancy Hansen, who bought Justin a one-way ticket on a United Airlines flight from Washington to Moscow and arranged for Lookyanov to meet him there. Lookyanov provided CNN with a copy of his e-mail exchanges with Hansen. "I am interested in hiring you for a pick-up from DME (Domodedovo Airport) to the office of the Ministry of Education and Science of the Russian Federation on Monday April 12th," Hansen initially wrote to Lookyanov, according to the e-mails. Lookyanov responded with an extensive e-mail that included references for his work as a professional driver for foreign visitors. His fee would be $120, he said. When Hansen later sent an e-mail to say she had booked a flight that would arrive on Thursday morning, she gave no hint that the passenger would be a child, Lookyanov said. "I had not big plans so I can meet you at Domodedovo," Lookyanov wrote back to her. "Where are you going to stay in Moscow?" It was not until Wednesday that Hansen told him his passenger would be a young boy who would be escorted through the airport by an airline employee carrying an envelope with two envelopes inside it, according to the e-mails. "One is an envelope for the Ministry of Education, Tverskaya Street, 11, Moscow," Hansen wrote. "The other envelope will be addressed to you. Inside will be your payment in US Dollars." Hansen instructed the driver to take the child inside the ministry and give the envelope to the receptionist. When Lookyanov and the boy arrived at the ministry, he knew something was "terribly wrong" when he realized that no one was expecting him. When several women came down to investigate why he was there, they opened the envelope intended for the ministry. "I am sorry to say that for the safety of my family, friends and myself I no longer wish to parent this child," wrote Torry Hansen, the adoptive mother. An angry phone call to the United States followed, with Lookyanov talking to Nancy Hansen first, complaining that he had been deceived, he said. Although the driver's duty was completed, he said, he stayed with the boy throughout the day as they waited for juvenile authorities to pick him up. While they waited, Justin used his pencils to draw "a beautiful house" with only one small door. He also drew another boy who he said was Logan, his 10-year-old friend, according to Lookyanov. At the end of the day, just before the boy was taken to a special hospital, he gave his driver two gifts. He handed him the United Airline wings he was given on the plane and a picture he had drawn while waiting at the ministry. Lookyanov said the experience has left him sad and depressed. But the most difficult thing, he said, has been the negative comments made in the Russian media reports, some suggesting that he is partly to blame for the boy's plight. He said he wanted people to know that he had no idea his passenger was an adopted child being returned to Russia.
Tuesday, April 13, 2010 9:10 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AgentRouka: I suspect the reason they don't ask the child is that they can probably not accomodate what the child would ask of them and need the most.
Tuesday, April 13, 2010 9:33 AM
Tuesday, April 13, 2010 11:16 AM
Tuesday, April 13, 2010 11:47 AM
Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:36 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: Frem, have you dealt with any of those kids who have that...is it "attachment-deficit" disorder? If so, did you have any luck, and how would you deal with this kid? Because it sounds to me very much like what he's got, and from what I hear, it's not only incredibly hard to deal with, sometimes you can NEVER truly help the child. Just curious--obviously NOT excusing what was done and won't even address the woman or I'd go all nasty icons on 'ya...think I'm going to stay pissed about that one for a long time...
Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:50 PM
Tuesday, April 13, 2010 1:50 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: "Most treatments involve increasing the responsiveness and sensitivity of the caregiver..." -Wikipedia But what if it's got to the point where the kid just wants to be left alone? <_< All of these personality disorders. Sometimes I think we oughta just leave people be. I also wonder about all of this blaming the caregiver stuff. Sometimes it seems too easy an explanation for all the complexities that go on in our brains. Yeah, there's abuse, yeah, abuse causes a lot of issues, but I don't buy that there's all these people remembering stuff that happened to them before they were three. Seems to me like psychiatrists taking advantage of the inherent suggestibility of memory. Again, I'm not saying that abuse doesn't happen, and RAD probably is caused by abuse. But I think some people don't actually have problems, and people go looking for causes anyway. What if this kid and Hansen just didn't connect? What if the adoptive mother is lying about the degree of problems the kid was exhibiting because she wasn't ready or because of that lack of connection?
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 4:57 AM
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 6:16 AM
Quote:it's not so much overdiagnosis as wanting to pigeonhole and category stuff rather than spending the time and effort on an individualized diagnosis, which is IMHO, where things start to go all wrong every time in conventional therapies.
Quote:once a conventional therapist starts pushing on a patient with issues, the patients issues can and will start pushing back
Quote:it was impossible for a conventional therapist to build the necessary trust-relationship required, and any/every attempt to force that issue would just make them worse, not better
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 6:22 AM
Quote:females tend to be far more resilient than males in that rebound
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 7:27 AM
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 8:36 AM
Quote:All of these personality disorders. Sometimes I think we oughta just leave people be. I also wonder about all of this blaming the caregiver stuff. Sometimes it seems too easy an explanation for all the complexities that go on in our brains. Yeah, there's abuse, yeah, abuse causes a lot of issues, but I don't buy that there's all these people remembering stuff that happened to them before they were three. Seems to me like psychiatrists taking advantage of the inherent suggestibility of memory. Again, I'm not saying that abuse doesn't happen, and RAD probably is caused by abuse. But I think some people don't actually have problems, and people go looking for causes anyway. What if this kid and Hansen just didn't connect? What if the adoptive mother is lying about the degree of problems the kid was exhibiting because she wasn't ready or because of that lack of connection?
Quote:The evidence is pretty clear these days that abuse and neglect, particularly in early infancy results in something akin to brain damage in a child. The brain doesn't develop properly when you are not held and treated with loving care. The ratio of carers in the Baltic state orphanages meant that most babies just weren't able to get enough of that loving care to thrive, it's not necessarily a criticism of the carers, just the system and of course, war which inadvertently leads to orphans. It's kind of official, war leads to generational brain damage.
Quote: Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) is a complex psychiatric illness that can affect young children. It is characterized by serious problems in emotional attachments to others. RAD usually presents by age 5, but a parent, caregiver or physician may notice that a child has problems with emotional attachment by their first birthday. Often, a parent brings an infant or very young child to the doctor with one or more of the following concerns: • severe colic and/or feeding difficulties • failure to gain weight • detached and unresponsive behavior • difficulty being comforted • preoccupied and/or defiant behavior • inhibition or hesitancy in social interactions • disinhibition or inappropriate familiarity or closeness with strangers. The physical, emotional and social problems associated with RAD may persist as the child grows older. Most children with Reactive Attachment Disorder have had severe problems or disruptions in their early relationships. Many have been physically or emotionally abused or neglected. Some have experienced inadequate care in an institutional setting or other out-of-home placement (for example a hospital, residential program, foster care or orphanage). Others have had multiple or traumatic losses or changes in their primary caregiver. The exact cause of Reactive Attachment Disorder is not known. Children who exhibit signs of Reactive Attachment Disorder need a comprehensive psychiatric assessment and individualized treatment plan. These signs or symptoms may also be found in other psychiatric disorders. A child should never be given this label or diagnosis without a comprehensive evaluation. Treatment of this complex disorder involves both the child and the family. Therapists focus on understanding and strengthening the relationship between a child and his or her primary care givers. Without treatment, this condition can affect permanently a child's social and emotional development. However, unconventional and forced treatments such as "rebirthing" strategies are potentially dangerous and should be avoided. Parents of a young child who shows signs or symptoms of Reactive Attachment Disorder should: • seek a comprehensive psychiatric evaluation by a qualified mental health professional prior to the initiation of any treatment • make sure they understand the risks as well as the potential benefits of any intervention • feel free to seek a second opinion if they have questions or concerns about the diagnosis and/or treatment plan Reactive Attachment Disorder is a serious clinical condition. Fortunately, it is relatively rare. Evaluating and treating children with complex child psychiatric disorders such as Reactive Attachment Disorder is challenging. There are no simple solutions or magic answers. However, close and ongoing collaboration between the child's family and the treatment team will increase the likelihood of a successful outcome.
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 8:51 AM
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 9:24 AM
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:00 AM
Quote:I still don't really want to have relationships with anyone in real life, people are too incomprehensible, frustrating, and demanding. Friendships take too much effort
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:08 AM
Quote: Bah, any pysch diagnoses MUST be individual to the patient, and individualized or you're just wasting your time. All too often modern medicine tries to pigeonhole classify stuff and then throw a pill at it and that works about as well as treating tuberculosis with cough syrup, ok ? And you can ONLY do a proper diagnosis by expending the time and effort observing your potentive patient over a substantial period of time in a controlled environment - that's not just talk, that's the bare minimum facts, hell, even diagnosing a behavioral disorder takes a minimum of 90 minutes of observation within a controlled environment... So yeah, when I see a 10minute question-checklist "diagnosis" steam starts rollin out my ears - I don't CARE how much paper they have from some so-called educational institution, I will bet my empiric diagnosis (which takes all day) versus their quickie checklist any day of the week, and I would lay good money on it to boot! Ironically, one of the best folk we ever had, and still do, to help make those kinds of diagnosis, or at least assist with em, is a dude who used to be a professional gambler specialising in poker - his ability to spot behaviorial traits and quirks that would often pass the notice of a less observant individual has been an invaluable resource, especially in combination with someone who has the skill and experience to add up those things and speculate as to the root causes behind them. But what it comes down to, with this, all of this, is that people are PEOPLE, human beings, each and every one as individual and unique as a snowflake, and every diagnosis and treatment MUST reflect that, or you're just wasting your time, potentially harming your patient and indulging in what I feel to be gross criminal negligence in your responsibility to them. Ergo, I take a very, VERY dim view of most conventional psych people, despite having no formal education at all - which matters a hell of a lot less to the poor folks asking you for help than whether or not you know what the hell you're doing - all they really have is a buncha theories, some of em from KNOWN liars and nutters, educated guesses, and the ability to prescribe drugs that can temporarily abate the symptoms, but for them trying to even find the root of the problem is like probing a minefield blindfolded cause they don't really *know* a damned thing for sure - nobody does, and trying to do it without a proper diagnosis in the first place is like stickin your arm into a running garbage disposal. Sorry, hot button topic for me, that one.
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:11 AM
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:44 AM
Quote:if you've ever read "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus", you'd get a wonderful insight into how our brains are wired differently.
Quote:By the way, rarely are people "born" with disorders. We carry the GENETIC PROPENSITY...it takes something to cause the gene to manifest. And that something, far more often than not, is childhood abuse or trauma, be it psychological, physical, sexual or the sort of abandonment that causes RAD. We can also manifest by later trauma, PTSD, or head injury, but from what I've seen, upbringing is by far the biggest cause. Back to "it takes a village..."
Quote:messing with people's minds and emotions is damned dangerous and just like religion, there's a component of power which can affect therapists unconsciously. Having that much trust put in a person's hands can make it far too easy to fall into a control position.
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:11 AM
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:14 AM
Quote:Read it, don't agree with all of it, but it is cute and insightful - it's just way oversimplified so that folk without heavy background can understand it, concept with training wheels on it, kinda like.
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 12:07 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: Other parts, thinking. To be honest, the more you talk about it, I do think I have something like what you have, but I'm not so sure it runs quite as deep. Maybe I just haven't been triggered as much as you, really. That might be what it is.
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 12:20 PM
MAL4PREZ
Quote:Originally posted by Fremdfirma: I not only cut it loose, I REVEL in it, a rabid explosion of violence and pent up rage and frustration so intense that the few times it's gone that way were sufficient fodder for the rumor mill to come up with all sorts of scary stories - but also like I said, the use of violence does psychic harm to the wielder as well as the target, so I have a warped kind of taste for it, like that little twinge a longterm alcoholic who has kicked the habit has whenever he stares at the bottle, the siren song of temptation, don't you know...
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 12:24 PM
Quote:My early childhood was pretty ugly, but never from my mother or within my household, all of the ugliness was external, and that is a different thing...
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 12:36 PM
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 1:06 PM
Quote:But what it comes down to, with this, all of this, is that people are PEOPLE, human beings, each and every one as individual and unique as a snowflake, and every diagnosis and treatment MUST reflect that, or you're just wasting your time, potentially harming your patient and indulging in what I feel to be gross criminal negligence in your responsibility to them.
Quote:And the invasive feeling when someone tries to make you feel better when you're having a sulk and don't WANT to feel better, or you're angry and have a REASON to be, fuck the happy smiley face, this is me, deal with it.
Quote:What lit the fuse, and so badly, during this discussion, is the very thing that lights mine, and while it is rooted in compassion, it's not a very NICE form of compassion because it manifests as pure rage at at world and society which can do these things.
Quote:what I kinda see as "easy solutions" that make people feel better, but may not solve the problem. Or ideas which may not respect who they just naturally are. I have issues with a number of mental and personality disorder diagnoses.
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 1:15 PM
Quote: Interactions with them generally weren't and aren't positive, but they were thankfully very limited. I did a lot of book reading.
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 2:53 PM
HKCAVALIER
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 2:58 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: I actually built myself a room in the attic, only accessible by ladder, to get away. I was given everything I could need in material objects, but there was a "price" for everything, emotional or material, and that's part of what fucked me up.
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