I'm growing rather proud of America for standing up to this thing; in a way it shows there are far more people who believe in civil rights and are willin..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Nationwide protests of Arizona law

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, May 7, 2010 03:13
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Saturday, May 1, 2010 9:05 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I'm growing rather proud of America for standing up to this thing; in a way it shows there are far more people who believe in civil rights and are willing to stand up for them than there are those who don't. In these turbulent times, it's a hopefull sign.

Demonstrations in support of immigrants' rights are scheduled today in at least 21 states, the District of Columbia and two Canadian provinces. In all, protests are planned for 47 cities.
Quote:

On Friday, two San Francisco, California, officials wrote a three-page letter to Major League Baseball commissioner Bud Selig to ask that the 2011 All-Star Game be moved from Phoenix, Arizona, if the law is not repealed.

The Major League Baseball Players Association, the players' union, is also voicing its disapproval of the law.

"The recent passage by Arizona of a new immigration law could have a negative impact on hundreds of Major League players who are citizens of countries other than the United States," Michael Weiner, executive director of the association, said in a prepared statement Friday.

"The Major League Baseball Players Association opposes this law as written. We hope that the law is repealed or modified promptly. If the current law goes into effect, the MLBPA will consider additional steps necessary to protect the rights and interests of our members."

Also Friday, National Urban League President Marc Morial announced that the civil rights organization is suspending consideration of Phoenix -- which had submitted a bid -- as the location for its 2012 conference "as long as this unfortunate law remains in effect."

In addition, the African-American Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity announced it is pulling its July 2010 convention from Phoenix and moving it to Las Vegas, Nevada, because of what its board called "the egregious immigration act signed recently by the governor of Arizona."

In addition, the African-American Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity announced it is pulling its July 2010 convention from Phoenix and moving it to Las Vegas, Nevada, because of what its board called "the egregious immigration act signed recently by the governor of Arizona."

One of the two lawsuits against SB1070 was filed Thursday by a police officer in Tucson, Arizona, who asked that local law enforcement be exempt from enforcing the measure. Officer Martin H. Escobar says in the federal suit that the law will "seriously impede law enforcement investigations and facilitate the successful commission of crimes."

The National Coalition of Latino Clergy and Christian Leaders also filed a federal lawsuit Thursday.

The Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund, the American Civil Liberties Union, the ACLU of Arizona and the National Immigration Law Center said Thursday they also plan to jointly file a lawsuit.

Supporters of SB1070 cite high levels of illegal immigration and crimes committed by unauthorized immigrants as a reason for the new law.

But statistics from the U.S. Customs and Border Protection agency and the FBI indicate that both the number of illegal immigrants and violent crime have decreased in the state in recent years.

According to FBI statistics, violent crimes in Arizona dropped by nearly 1,500 reported incidents between 2005 and 2008. Reported property crimes also fell during the same period, from about 287,000 reported incidents to 279,000. These decreases are accentuated by the fact that Arizona's population grew by 600,000 people between 2005 and 2008.

According to the nonpartisan Immigration Policy Institute, proponents of the bill "overlook two salient points: crime rates have already been falling in Arizona for years despite the presence of unauthorized immigrants, and a century's worth of research has demonstrated that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes or be behind bars than the native-born."

A Pew Research Center survey late last year found that Americans believe Latinos are discriminated against more than any other major racial or ethnic group in American society.

The Pew survey also indicated that about one-third of the nation's Latinos say they or someone they know has experienced discrimination. About 9 percent said they had been stopped by police or other authorities and asked about their immigration status in the year before the survey.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/30/arizona.immigration.law/index.h
tml?hpt=Sbin



"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Saturday, May 1, 2010 9:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


And there's more:
Quote:

Activists said outrage over Arizona's controversial immigration law "awakened a sleeping giant" Saturday as rallies demanding federal immigration reform kicked off in cities across the country.

In New York, labor organizer John Delgado said anger over the law — which requires local law enforcement to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they're in the country illegally — drew more than 5,000 people to a rally at Manhattan's Foley Square.

"She's awakened a sleeping giant," Delgado said, referring to Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer, who signed the law.

In Los Angeles, singer Gloria Estefan kicked off a massive downtown march to demand immigration reform and protest the Arizona law. Estefan spoke in Spanish and English atop a flatbed truck, proclaiming the United States is a nation of immigrants. She said immigrants are good, hardworking people, not criminals.

Cardinal Roger Mahony stood on the truck chanting in Spanish, "Si, se puede," or "Yes we can."

Organizers believe opposition to the law could be the catalyst to draw tens of thousands to rallies in dozens of cities. Four years ago, more than a million people across the country united to protest ultimately unsuccessful federal legislation that would have made being an illegal immigrant a felony.

Denver Public Schools has banned work-related travel to Arizona.

U.S. Rep. Luis Gutierrez, a Chicago Democrat who has sponsored a House immigration bill, said he plans to participate in civil disobedience at the White House on Saturday. In Chicago, several college students plan to "come out" as illegal immigrants on a downtown stage.

In Ann Arbor, Mich., more than 500 people held a mock graduation ceremony for undocumented immigrant students near the site of Obama's University of Michigan commencement speech.

"It's time to come together and show that undocumenteds have dignity. They're human," said Douglas Interiano, a spokesman for Reform Immigration for Texas Alliance, which is helping plan Saturday's march in Dallas.

He projected up to 100,000 could march in Dallas, with similar events planned in El Paso, Houston, Austin and San Juan.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wirestory?id=10526645&page=1

GO, sleeping giant, go!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Saturday, May 1, 2010 9:31 AM

WHOZIT


DAM! They're like the "Tea Party" protests, only they'll get nasty and leave a mess.

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Saturday, May 1, 2010 1:27 PM

FREMDFIRMA



The irony is that May Day, technically both a Union and Anarchist holiday, has also been in recent years given over to those in favor of immigration reform - wasn't that long ago some bi-lingual newsies came under attack during a mutual protest by law enforcement who were clearly both racist and way out of line, resulting in me getting back into the security biz initially as a consultant to them.

And immigration reform is a smart idea, considering one reason we have so many illegal immigrants is just how awful a byzantine nightmare of red tape immigration is - all the from the McCarran-Walter Act coming out of McCarthyism back to the Alien and Sedition act, immigrants have always been one of the targets by which the powers that be whip up the scare factor without regard to the fact that we are essentially a nation OF immigrants, nor any thought to the long term consequences of such legislation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarran-Walter_Act

I mean, my Ex is looking down the barrel of that right now, as her Fiancee is canadian, and even so, she has a stack of books, each one the size of a fucking Unix manual, that she has to learn just to keep up with the goddamn paperwork, any and all of which can be blocked without reason by any petty little beauracrat in the chain, just on a whim...

So yeah, when you make legal immigration impossible, you make illegal immigration inevitable, and if you wanna blame somebody, blame McCarthy and the racist, scaremongering pricks of the political arena - while saving a kick or two for race baiters who wanna use the problem to elevate themselves without ever actually solving it, cause they ain't innocent either.

Of course, as always, MY solution is...
"Hi, welcome to america, here's your W2!"

Give the IRS something to do besides fuck with us for once...

-F

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Saturday, May 1, 2010 1:39 PM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

The irony is that May Day, technically both a Union and Anarchist holiday, has also been in recent years given over to those in favor of immigration reform - wasn't that long ago some bi-lingual newsies came under attack during a mutual protest by law enforcement who were clearly both racist and way out of line, resulting in me getting back into the security biz initially as a consultant to them.

And immigration reform is a smart idea, considering one reason we have so many illegal immigrants is just how awful a byzantine nightmare of red tape immigration is - all the from the McCarran-Walter Act coming out of McCarthyism back to the Alien and Sedition act, immigrants have always been one of the targets by which the powers that be whip up the scare factor without regard to the fact that we are essentially a nation OF immigrants, nor any thought to the long term consequences of such legislation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarran-Walter_Act

I mean, my Ex is looking down the barrel of that right now, as her Fiancee is canadian, and even so, she has a stack of books, each one the size of a fucking Unix manual, that she has to learn just to keep up with the goddamn paperwork, any and all of which can be blocked without reason by any petty little beauracrat in the chain, just on a whim...

So yeah, when you make legal immigration impossible, you make illegal immigration inevitable, and if you wanna blame somebody, blame McCarthy and the racist, scaremongering pricks of the political arena - while saving a kick or two for race baiters who wanna use the problem to elevate themselves without ever actually solving it, cause they ain't innocent either.

Of course, as always, MY solution is...
"Hi, welcome to america, here's your W2!"

Give the IRS something to do besides fuck with us for once...

-F

Yea BLAH BLAH BLAH! Fact, you're X and them will leave a huge mess. The "Tea Party" folks would not. FACT!

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Saturday, May 1, 2010 1:54 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



This is wrong.

There is no 'civil rights' issue here. Illegal MEANS illegal. I'll gladly stand w/ anyone wants to come here legally, and join the U.S. family, by doing things the right way, and coming in the front door.

But this ? No way. This is a celebration of running over the very values of what BEING an American stands for.







Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Saturday, May 1, 2010 1:57 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
So yeah, when you make legal immigration impossible, you make illegal immigration inevitable, ...

Of course, as always, MY solution is...
"Hi, welcome to america, here's your W2!"

Give the IRS something to do besides fuck with us for once...



LOLOL.

As an immigrant myself, I can attest to the nightmare that is legal immigration. And I did it back in the easy days.

I actually entered the country illegally once.

I had a current student visa. I was also married to an American citizen. It turns out immigration law says that if you're married to an American, all your visas are automatically null and void. You can enter and stay in the country as a spouse, but you need to get a green card first.

A green card takes fucking 6 months to a year to come out. And I had an incredible opportunity to go to Europe and back for $149 for our honeymoon--but it had to be in 3 weeks. I couldn't wait 6 months.

So I went, and reentered the States with my null and void student visa (by not disclosing I was married).

Never mind I was a full time student at an American university, married to an American, and paid all my taxes. I was still an illegal immigrant.

"Illegal" is how you define it. Sometimes illegal doesn't hurt anyone at all.

Epilogue: When I finally got my green card, I was fined for entering the country illegally. But the trip to Europe was so worth it.

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Sunday, May 2, 2010 6:48 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

This is a celebration of running over the very values of what BEING an American stands for.
I wonder how he explains this? Unless it's the typical Crappy "I'll say something that will trigger others".

America stands for the LAW, FREEDOM OF SPEECH and CIVIL RIGHTS. This goes against both. USING the law to TRAMPLE civil rights, then denouncing freedom of speech protesting it? Yeah...real "American"...


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Sunday, May 2, 2010 6:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I'll gladly stand w/ anyone wants to come here legally, and join the U.S. family, by doing things the right way, and coming in the front door.
So, how do you feel about the Marielitos and other immigrant Cubans? How come THEY get to go the the front of the line, no pass required?

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Sunday, May 2, 2010 7:55 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

This is wrong.

There is no 'civil rights' issue here. Illegal MEANS illegal. I'll gladly stand w/ anyone wants to come here legally, and join the U.S. family, by doing things the right way, and coming in the front door.

But this ? No way. This is a celebration of running over the very values of what BEING an American stands for.



As always, you're wrong.

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Tuesday, May 4, 2010 7:05 PM

ANTIMASON


i see the real issues here as the the tax code/entitlement system/wellfare state, and the drug laws. we could do a lot to deal with the drug runners by changing our federl/state drug laws. in a free society, you would want to promote personal choice and liberty, and it removes the black market for drug lords and street gangs/criminals.

but the entitlement/wellfare system is the bigger issue. social security is a time bomb, its close to paying out more then it collects soon. thats going to be a permanant, exponentially increasing boon on the economy. its somewhat convenient that we have a 'crisis', calling for 'comprehensive immigration reform'.. when we're in desperate need of a population influx, and resurgance of birthrates , in order to feed this monster we've created. yet when it comes time to cut spending, they always cut vital services like police or hospitals, before they consider scrapping these pet projects. what was the obama stimulus, but a trillion dollar tax, divied up by politicians and special interests for pet projects?

but if we had a healthy, growing economy, based on sound principles, that provided the most oppertunity for people to succeed on their own, maybe illegal immigration would be less contentious- less consequential. we would need workers, they would be desirable(as it used to be). its the wellfare state that has made immigrants the scapegoat. as it is, a pregnant mother comes to america, has her child, and immediately qualifies for all the advantages of the american entitlement aparatus! that is simply not sustainable, none of this is. obviously we're all immigrants, but the circumstances of citizenshape have changed a lot




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Tuesday, May 4, 2010 10:51 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


Ok, this is a touchy subject, but one that can be resolved rather quickly. But first, let's take a look at the make up of the people in this country. All are foreigners, except of course for the natives who were here when the pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock.

Ok, maybe I'm going back too far. So imagine the native americans who lived in this country long before europe started to empty out their unwashed and unwanted, telling the visitors "Uh, uh you can't come here and just take over.

Ok, I'm being a dick here, but this country was founded on immigration. You know, the huddled masses yearning to be free (and rape, pillage and steal millions of miles of uncharted territory). what was it, 200-some odd treatys and all broken by the US.

The revolution occurred and "we the people" became "legitimized," the people of the more perfect union broke free from the tryant King George. Since then people have come to know this land as the land of opportunity. Free enterprise, the business of owning things, including other people. I'm rambling here, but it all seems odd that anyone in this country would stand for keeping people out of our free society.

To me it's more of an issue regarding overpopulation and limited resources, than of our American dream ideal. How many Russian illegals have made their way to our shores? Polish? Jewish? Chinese? Why not ban all who
seek out our way of life (such as it is). Coming in through the front door, porch or bathroom window all seek the ideal American dream; all seek a piece of the pie.

But I think now that people are becoming aware of the finite amount of the natural resources, well now we see things a bit differently. Of course, that's why we go to other countries to take it. But we poo-poo on others when they try to follow our lead.

Oh yeah, the simple solution" Make it legal. Hand those folks that come here a work permit or W2 and have them pay their taxes like everyone else. I know, too simplistic! Well gorram it, I'm fresh outta ideas.

As the immortal Yosemite Sam would say: "Imma thinking, my head hurts."


SGG

Tawabawho?

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Wednesday, May 5, 2010 2:26 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Mike:
As always, you're wrong.



lol.

Antimason,

Nice threadjack, but I think the issue here is institutionalized racism, which I thought had no supporters at all, but it appears to have Whozit. Oh, and Rap,. Hey, where's Wulf when you need him?

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Wednesday, May 5, 2010 3:15 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Gulp.... I'm with Auraptor. Calling racism is such a bs inflammatory tactic. At least for me it has nothing to do with skin color.

Niki, I would bet a lot of those groups listed just saw which way public favor was blowing and then - when it was safe and they could get a boost - they jumped on board.

As a midwesterner I wouldn't presume to know what it's like in Arizona, or feel like I had any right to tell them what to do. Whatever else you may feel about the politics of the state, this seems like a clear example of a state's issue.

Where do you draw the line on who we pay for? Frem, no one questions your charitable nature, but do you have any money left after getting gouged by the IRS to pay for an illegal's meds? Should we just start sending money to Mexico and cut out the middle men?

People talk about their rights... anyone think these illegals are getting health care from their employers? Or any other human rights considerations? Wouldn't they have more leverage as citizens?

I think a lot of people argue from public favor... or just against everything AU says.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, May 5, 2010 4:45 AM

DREAMTROVE


Pizmo

The only employer that every gave me health insurance wa the govt. Virtually every job I had made me work overtime, but I have never once been paid for it.

The benifits of being off the record exceed those of being on, IMHO, but that's not the issue. It's whether or not police can simply make life difficult for latinos, which is what they intend to do, to make them leave, not the immigrants, latinos in general



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Wednesday, May 5, 2010 5:38 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Pizmo

The only employer that every gave me health insurance wa the govt. Virtually every job I had made me work overtime, but I have never once been paid for it.

The benifits of being off the record exceed those of being on, IMHO, but that's not the issue. It's whether or not police can simply make life difficult for latinos, which is what they intend to do, to make them leave, not the immigrants, latinos in general




I don't know their (politicos or police) motivations, but Latinos have to be such an integral part of their economy and community that I can't believe this is an attempt to try and make all of them leave.

If cops are the kind that want to bug Latinos I really don't think they've been waiting for this bill to do so. I don't think the Latino community is without any influence in Arizona either.

Arizona is trying to deal with a problem and their desperation is showing.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, May 5, 2010 6:39 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Arizona is trying to deal with a problem and their desperation is showing.


Which raises the question, DO desperate times call for desperate measures? At what point are you willing to give up YOUR constitutional rights to be left the hell alone? After all, if we're so willing to throw others (Muslims, Hispanics, etc.) into that group and determine that our security trumps their civil liberties, where do you draw the line? Where do I get to decide what YOUR rights should be?

As Frem has pointed out, a "right" is universal, or it's not a right. Saying that this doesn't target Hispanics and latinos is pure bullshit, UNLESS you stop people based on the makeup of the population as a whole. In Arizona, that means about 30% of your stops can be Latino, Native American, and black, and the rest have to be whites. So I ask again, would YOU hand the police that ability to stop you and ask you for your papers at any time, for any reason (or for no reason at all)? And if not, why are you willing to throw other groups to the wolves?

If it ISN'T institutionalized racism and racial profiling written into law, what else would you call it if it isn't applied to all groups on an equal basis? If a law or enforcement issue is targeted at one particular group, isn't it the very definition of profiling? Wasn't this why the right was so upset with DHS's study saying that we should be on the lookout for "right-wing extremists"? Didn't they feel that they were being singled out for persecution simply based on who and what they were?

Again, I share the concerns about illegal immigration. What we're NOT doing, as a nation, is addressing WHY people are willing to come here illegally. Our immigration policies are a mess, and we give employers a free pass on hiring and harboring illegal workers. If there are fines levied, they tend to be far less than the overall contributions to the bottom line that are made by the illegals working for such companies.

If the right is really about "law and order" or "personal responsibility", let the business owners take the responsibility for hiring LEGAL, documented workers at a fair wage and obeying the law, and let's sharply ramp up the penalties for breaking those hiring laws. In other words, let's ask American business to pay more than lip service to the issue, and to put its money where its collective mouth is.

And I'll bet you a couple grand that that will never, ever happen. The parties want the fund-raising that comes with the immigration issue; they don't want to actually DO anything about the issue.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Wednesday, May 5, 2010 6:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anti, I don’t see SSI and Medicare as being a “permanant, exponentially increasing boon on the economy” (tho’ I don’t think from what else you wrote that you meant “boon”...?). Once us boomers are out of the way, and yeah, we gotta get through that (and I’m pretty sure we will; once you’ve started something like that, it’s hard to take it away), the population our age will go down drastically; it’s a cycle, and always will be, I think. The problem is getting the government’s FINGERS out of both programs—if that HAD been done, we’d be okay now, or at least okay-er! The money we put in would have gathered interest and be there, instead of having been pilfered. Tho’ admittedly the increase in population right now would be helpful, and immigrants paying into it would help, I grant you that.

I agree about drug laws, to an extent, as being part of the problem...has been for decades. The money put into the “drug war” (a joke if ever there was one) and incarcerating people for possession has been a drag on the economy and will continue to be, but I don’t believe in legalizing everything...!

Illegal immigrants DO contribute to the entitlement system as it is, and get no benefit from it. I posted some facts and figures on that and the taxes they pay, and it was an education for me. The “they cost more than they pay” thing is debatable. As to the illegal mother; she doesn’t qualify for entitlements as far as I know, but she works and many of them pay INTO that system...and the child grows up, legally, to contribute as a citizen. I don’t like illegal immigration, but I’m not as fervent as many. I feel more pity than anything; here in CA we have plenty of illegals, I see them lining the street by the dozens, hoping someone will pick them up to do day labor. Sucks to see, especially in really cold and really hot weather, and some live out on the marshes, I know, we’ve come across their “beds” among the high grasses. It’s just wrong, period; I don’t care how they got here, IMHO.

Shiny, I agree with a lot of what you said, except for one thing. Our natural resources and food production suck; people may see it in respect to sharing it will illegals, but if we FIXED it, they wouldn’t be a problem. We are incredibly wasteful and just the subject of corn alone is enough to make me hurl. As it is, illegals are used to keep prices down by virtual slave labor. If they were legal, they’d ALL pay taxes, make something like a decent living wage, and have expendable income to buy things.

By the way, your suggestion is close to what the Dems propose. Make a better effort to close the border. Then get those here to come out in the open, give ‘em 7 years on some kind of legal-alien status, paying taxes, etc.; after those 7 years, if they haven’t done anything illegal, they get a fine and green cards at the BACK of the line to start citizenship, which is another 6-7 years of green card before they get “resident” status and can start working toward citizenship. That and some kind of deal where day laborers can come in to work. I don’t know if it would work, it’s a helluvalong process; I think we’ll always have illegal immigrants, but it would be a start and put us back to less than 12 million running around scared to be caught.

Problem is, NEITHER side, for their own reasons, wants to deal with it, which is why it hasn’t been dealt with until now, and may never be. Personally, I think Arizona’s law is both pandering to those who resent them (whether for racist reasons or otherwise) and an attempt to push the feds into DOING SOMETHING. Whether THAT will work or not, I dunno either.



"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, May 5, 2010 6:41 AM

DREAMTROVE


But the policy is based on race. There is one set of laws for anglos, and another for latinos. This isn't the first time Arizona has gone white on us. I don't think there's any serious thought behind it. It's more in a category with the southern prison labor program. yes, black men, working, without pay, and then going back to prison. need more workers? go arrest more blacks. Oh, and did you know that corporations can buy prison labor in the south? Oh, we're moving along real fast...

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Wednesday, May 5, 2010 6:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Piz, for YOU maybe “it has nothing to do with skin color”, but I guarantee that for millions it DOES. It might not even be racists per se, more like prejudicial “resentment” in believing they take jobs (wrong), don’t pay taxes (wrong for the most part) and for the real racists, are just “inferior” (wrong). The problem is that when you call ANYTHING racist, the other side immediately cries “using the race card” to dismiss it, while racism IS very much alive in our country and people can come up with any excuse to say it isn’t.

As to illegals’ meds, please see the quotes and cites I put up in another thread on this issue; we don’t get “gouged” nearly as much as they’d like us to believe. Whether they contribute more here as illegals or cost more is a debatable point, and I don’t think anyone has the full answer. But it’s not as cut and dried as you put it. I do think they’d get a better life and there’d be less of a drain if they were legal, but that’s my opinion.

Regarding Crappy, you’re wrong. We argue with him because he makes outrageously ridiculous statements—he does it to get a rise, we’ll never know what he really thinks. He gets what he’s here for, but his “Repubs can do no wrong” and “it’s all the fault of the liberals” stances, as well as the tactics he uses to duck any facts that prove him wrong, are taken quite deliberately and made more over the top. He incites arguments; if he’s really as stupid and blind as what he writes makes it appear, he’s truly pathetic. But aside from Mike possibly, I don’t think anyone is just against anything he says. I’ve agreed with him more than once, so have others. One needs to take into account grudges and past experience for those who get their hackles up the minute he posts, no matter what it is.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, May 5, 2010 6:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


DT, I don’t think they want the Latinos leave; as Piz said, they’re so much a part of the economy in border states that it would be disastrous if all of them got up and left, legal and illegal. And again, I don’t know if the benefits of being illegal exceed those of being illegal, but I tend to doubt it. Once more, I posted some facts and figures about that, and when you add in living conditions, fear, and working conditions, I don’t think those are “benefits” of being illegal. I, too, think the Latino population has some power in Arizona—they’ve gotten people elected who are working in their interests and, again, financially they are valuable.

As to
Quote:

If cops are the kind that want to bug Latinos I really don't think they've been waiting for this bill to do so
you’re right, except that now they can do so LEGALLY, so they can’t get in trouble for it, they HAVE to do it to some sort of degree (tho’ nobody’s figured out quite WHAT degree) or they can be sued, and they get to harass LEGAL citizens, put them In jail for as much as a few months if they don’t have papers, and generally exercise any racist tendencies with impunity. And we KNOW there are those kind of cops, as there are prosecutions right now because of it.

To me civil rights are civil rights are civil rights. If we don’t respect them, we go even more downhill than waterboarding and all the other damned stomping on our civil rights the Dumbya administration put us on the road to.
Quote:

Arizona is trying to deal with a problem and their desperation is showing.
Bang on. I still think this move is intended to push the feds into dealing with the immigration problem, more than it is about racism, but I also believe racism makes it easier to push in this manner. As to it being states’ rights, I disagree; if you make something as drastic as this the right of individual states, innocent tourists and legal citizens traveling there are in danger; they might cross the border into the state for a day and become stuck there for at least months. It’s confusing enough with different laws in different states, I don’t think we need to compound that.

You're also right, DT, in that Arizona has put through other laws specifically aimed at Latinos; if anyone wants facts, I saw them when looking for other things and can find them again.

And finally, I am proud of my countrymen for standing up to this in such numbers and so many ways; if we don’t follow the ideals of this country, we are less than nothing and quite on the level of countries we despise for their treatment of the people there. It’s as simple as THAT, for me. The answer? Less simple.

I didn't know the thing about corporations and prisoners, that sucks! Yes, that is another way to get cheap labor, and it's awfully close to "slave labor" in my view. Thanx for that, I'll have to learn more.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, May 5, 2010 9:20 PM

ANTIMASON


i think as long as you on the left insist we maintain this pervasive wellfare state, what is the solution to illegal immigration? there is no doubt they draw more in wellfare then they contribute, because so do tax paying Americans! we have 100 trillion in entitlements! its the wellfare state thats the problem, not the 'immigrants'. its the state of citizenship that is being re-evaluated.

as a side note, just consider what damage supporters of the minimum wage laws have done to americans, in light of illegals working illegitimately

but most importantly, this is ultimately mexico/s. Americas problem. why shouldnt this debate be forced back on their shoulders? maybe it is internal revolutions, in their home countries, that these the fleeing migrants need.. not sanctuary. unless we plan on taking in all the worlds poor and desparate, indefinately.

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Thursday, May 6, 2010 1:43 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:


as a side note, just consider what damage supporters of the minimum wage laws have done to americans, in light of illegals working illegitimately



Just consider the damage done to America by opponents of minimum wage laws, who will hire people illegally to circumvent paying even a low minimum wage. That works both ways. You want to hold illegals responsible for doing illegal acts, yet you'll give employers a free pass for committing a crime in hiring them. In fact, you'll lobby that it shouldn't even BE a crime to hire illegals.

More than a li'l bit of a double standard there, wouldn't you say?


Quote:


but most importantly, this is ultimately mexico/s. Americas problem. why shouldnt this debate be forced back on their shoulders? maybe it is internal revolutions, in their home countries, that these the fleeing migrants need.. not sanctuary. unless we plan on taking in all the worlds poor and desparate, indefinately.



I take it that you're 100% pure native American, then? No immigrant blood in you at all? Because if you are, then you came from those same poor and desperate who fled their countries' internal revolutions, all the way back to the Mayflower and before. Look it up; we're a nation of people who bailed on their country and came here because it was easier than trying to overthrow whatever governmental system they left behind.

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Thursday, May 6, 2010 4:46 AM

DREAMTROVE


antimason

argh. not on the left, but i so disagree. arfghlsm. welfare is a bad economic model i'll grant, but it's hardly a drain on the system. Consider it a subsidy for capitalist enterprises. I certainly prefer it over a slave labor system.

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Thursday, May 6, 2010 5:18 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


I'm soooo not getting this. I consider myself more racist toward my own white peeps than other group but, I mean, who else is coming over the border illegally here? How do you make it look like it isn't racism and still address the issue? Start stopping Black women? So to avoid the truth of the situation we should start detaining law abiding citizens of all races?

I thought we were getting past the PC overload we experienced a few decades ago.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, May 6, 2010 5:24 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I'm soooo not getting this. I consider myself more racist toward my own white peeps than other group but, I mean, who else is coming over the border illegally here? How do you make it look like it isn't racism and still address the issue? Start stopping Black women? So to avoid the truth of the situation we should start detaining law abiding citizens of all races?

I thought we were getting past the PC overload we experienced a few decades ago.




That's the rub - how DO you apply a law that's racist at its core, and apply it in a way that ISN'T racist?

If you're after illegal immigrants, is it really fair to claim that ALL illegals are Hispanic or Latino? Plenty enough white, black, Asian, etc. illegals have poured into our country, and some still do. Heck, to hear some people tell it, there's a veritable FLOOD of white Canadians pouring across our borders to get our totally awesome best-in-the-world health care!

If you want to have a law that is racist in its very being, that's a discussion we can have. What I won't do is pretend it's not racist just because it would be more convenient to others if I ignored its core racism.


Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, May 6, 2010 7:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Uh, Anti, what about all the Tea Partiers who are scared their Medicare and/or SSI will be taken away? You don’t think THEY’re insisting we maintain this pervasive wellfare state“? It’s not that cut and dried to blame the “left” for everything.

Mike’s responses go for me as well on the other points (except that other immigrants came here illegally, as opposed to illegally, which is the question), as does DT. SSI wouldn’t be in trouble if it hadn’t been raided (also by the “right”). It would have been collecting interest all this time and better able, if not completely able, to do what it was supposed to do.

Pizmo: It IS racism in that it is directly aimed at people of one “race”. As long as it’s thus, perfectly legal Americans can be stopped and have their “papers” checked. If they can’t, and there are instances of this, they have been arrested and put in jail for up to MONTHS before it’s cleared up. You’re in favor of that?? The answer, as I see it, is some kind of federal immigration reform; those who make a profit from virtual slave labor should be held responsible, we have to come up with SOME kind of viable solution to the millions of illegals now in the country, and do something to let fewer of them come in. Stopping anyone who “looks” a certain way is racism, pure and simple, and it’s counter to everything this country stands for.

Also, Mike, the question of who comes illegally is kind of disingenuous--the majority are Latinos, that's just a fact. The difference is the law GOES AFTER illegals from the South more than anyone else (unless they break the law). Jo was here several years illegally, but nobody came after her or questioned her legal status. The problem on the border states is the numbers, and I can at least sympathize with how they're perceiving that influx, even if I disagree with how they're trying to go about "fixing" it.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, May 6, 2010 7:35 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Mexico’s illegals laws tougher than Arizona’s

Mexican President Felipe Calderon denounced as "racial discrimination" an Arizona law giving state and local police the authority to arrest suspected illegal immigrants and vowed to use all means at his disposal to defend Mexican nationals against a law he called a "violation of human rights."

But the legislation, signed April 23 by Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer, is similar to Reglamento de la Ley General de Poblacion — the General Law on Population enacted in Mexico in April 2000, which mandates that federal, local and municipal police cooperate with federal immigration authorities in that country in the arrests of illegal immigrants.

Under the Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony, punishable by up to two years in prison. Immigrants who are deported and attempt to re-enter can be imprisoned for 10 years. Visa violators can be sentenced to six-year terms. Mexicans who help illegal immigrants are considered criminals.

The law also says Mexico can deport foreigners who are deemed detrimental to "economic or national interests," violate Mexican law, are not "physically or mentally healthy" or lack the "necessary funds for their sustenance" and for their dependents.

"This sounds like the kind of law that a rational nation would have to protect itself against illegal immigrants — that would stop and punish the very people who are violating the law," said Rep. Steve King of Iowa, ranking Republican on the House Judiciary subcommittee on immigration, citizenship, refugees, border security and international law.

"Why would Mr. Calderon have any objections to an Arizona law that is less draconian than his own, one he has pledged to enforce?" Mr. King said.

Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona, the ranking Republican on the Senate Judiciary subcommittee on terrorism and homeland security, described Mr. Calderon's comments as "hypocritical to say the least."

"I would have expected more from Mr. Calderon," said Mr. Kyl, who serves as the Senate minority whip. "We are spending millions of dollars to help Mexico fight the drug cartels that pose a threat to his government, and he doesn't seem to recognize our concerns. He ought to be apologizing to us instead of condemning us."

Mr. Kyl, along with fellow Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain, has introduced a 10-point comprehensive border security plan to combat illegal immigration, drug and human smuggling, and violent crime along the southwestern border. It includes the deployment of National Guard troops, an increase in U.S. Border Patrol agents and 700 miles of fencing, along with other equipment and funding upgrades.

He said skyrocketing violence on the border, including the recent killing of an Arizona rancher by an illegal immigrant he had gone to assist, has not gone unnoticed by the public, adding that until the federal government provides the necessary funding and manpower to adequately secure the southwestern border, Arizona will not long remain the only state to pass legislation to do it on its own.

Rep. Ted Poe, Texas Republican and a member of the House Judiciary and Foreign Affairs committees, described Mr. Calderon's criticism as "arrogant and hypocritical." He said Mexico's immigrations laws are "even tougher than those in the United States" and it was inappropriate to denounce the Arizona law when "Mexico does the very same thing."

"Mexico wants people to come to the United States and to send their money home," he said. "They want to make their problems our problems — that's their foreign policy. President Calderon should spend more time focusing on problems in his own country instead of criticizing Arizona for doing what Mexican law requires its own to do."

Rep. John Culberson, a Texas Republican who has advocated for stricter border enforcement policies, said the Arizona law was enacted as a result of the nation's "failed immigration policies."

"We should focus our time and resources on enforcing policies that work, like zero tolerance, which has reduced crime and illegal immigration dramatically along our southern border," he said.

Ricardo Alday, a spokesman at the Mexican Embassy in Washington, did not return calls for comment.

But the embassy has said the Mexican government is "deeply concerned by the potential dire effects" that the Arizona law will have on the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in the United States — about 450,000 of them in Arizona.

"As it has been raised by national Latino and immigration rights organizations, initiatives that exclusively criminalize immigration create opportunities for an undue enforcement of the law through racial profiling," Mr. Alday said in an April 15 statement.

The ambassador also warned of the "likelihood of negative effects that this measure … may have for the future development of friendship, commercial, tourist and cultural ties" between Mexico and Arizona.

The Arizona law, which is set to take effect in midsummer, authorizes state and local law enforcement officers — during lawful stops only — to determine the immigration status of people for whom there is "reasonable suspicion" that they are in the country illegally. Known as Senate Bill 1070, it was enacted in response to a dramatic rise in violence along the Arizona-Mexico border.

Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard requiring that before someone is arrested or detained there must be reasonable belief that the person has been, is or is about to be engaged in criminal activity.

A Rasmussen Reports poll has found that 70 percent of likely voters in Arizona approve of the legislation, while 23 percent oppose it.

Half of the nearly 1 million illegal border crossings into the United States each year occur in Arizona, according to a report by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), which also said Arizona taxpayers spend more than $2 billion a year on education and health care for illegal immigrants and their children.

"The porous border is virtually a welcome mat for criminal organizations that run drugs and other contraband through the state," the immigration watchdog group said, adding that kidnappings in Phoenix are at a record high.

Rep. Luis V. Gutierrez, an Illinois Democrat who was arrested Saturday during a rally at the White House calling on Congress and the Obama administration to enact immigration reform, said more states "could adopt Arizona's draconian law" if Congress doesnt act now.

"We must have fair and balanced reform to ensure immigrants are full participants in our economic recovery," said Mr. Gutierrez, chairman of the Democratic Caucus Immigration Task Force, for which he is the party's leading strategist and spokesman on immigration issues. "Enforcement-only tactics break up families, disrupt businesses, distract local law enforcement and drain local budgets."

In signing the bill, Mrs. Brewer said she would "not tolerate racial discrimination or racial profiling" and emphasized an amendment to the bill that prevents law enforcement personnel from using a person's race as the only factor in implementing the law.

"This protects all of us — every Arizona citizen and everyone here lawfully," she said.

The key legal issue, according to attorneys on both sides, will be whether the state law interferes with the federal government's duty to handle immigration.

Criticism of the Arizona law has come from several sources, including President Obama, who described it as an example of "irresponsibility" by the state. Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. has said the Justice Department is considering a legal challenge to the law.

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano told the Senate Judiciary Committee last week that the Arizona law could distract the agency from using its resources to go after serious criminals. She said there were concerns that at some point "we'll be responsible to enforce or use our immigration resources against anyone that would get picked up in Arizona."

She said she vetoed similar measures when she served as Arizona governor from 2003 to 2009.

On Sunday, she called the Arizona law "really a cry of frustration," while noting that "more assets have been put into Arizona in the last 15 months than ever in history."

"But, you know what, there's still a frustration out there. It's a frustration ultimately that will only be solved with comprehensive immigration reform," she said on ABC's "This Week."

The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund (MALDEF) and the National Immigration Law Center (NILC) also are preparing legal challenges.

During a Phoenix news conference last week, MALDEF President and General Counsel Thomas A. Saenz said "a vigorous and sophisticated legal challenge will be mounted" before the bill's implementation this summer "to prevent this unconstitutional and discriminatory law from ever taking effect."

Linton Joaquin, NILC's general counsel, added that the Arizona law "sends a strong message to all immigrants to have no contact with any law enforcement officer." He said the "inevitable result" would not only be to make immigrants more vulnerable to crime and exploitation, "but also to make the entire community less safe by aggressively discouraging witnesses and victims from reporting crimes."

The Rev. Eve Nunez of the Arizona Latino Commission and National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference said the Arizona law will be divisive and demonstrates the need for Congress to pass an immigration reform bill.

"A lot of pastors are very fearful they will be fined for transporting members of their congregation in their church vans. Churches are already losing members," she said. "There is great fear in the Hispanic community. It is very sad that in a state that should be welcoming the stranger, we are allowing oppressive laws to pass."

Mr. King defended the bill, saying Arizona and other states are being forced to "step up and fill the void" left by the failure of the Obama administration and Homeland Security Department to secure the nation's borders.

"I commend Arizona for standing up for the rule of law," he said.

Mr. King also noted that critics of the law have distorted what it says. He said the law allows state authorities to inquire into the immigration status based only on a "reasonable suspicion" that the person is unlawfully present in the United States.

As a state senator in Iowa, he was the principal sponsor of a workplace drug and alcohol testing bill in 1998 that also relied on "reasonable suspicion." That bill allowed the taking of urine or other samples from employees for whom there was a reasonable suspicion that they were under the influence.

"That bill passed into law in 1998 and there has not been a constitutional challenge to it yet," Mr. King said.

Arizona state Sen. Russell Pearce, the bill's author, said a constitutional challenge would "determine whether our nation enforces its immigration laws and secures its borders or becomes victim to its enemies."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/03/mexicos-illegals-laws-
tougher-than-arizonas
/



Stabbing During Cinco De Mayo Brawl
http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/local_news/long_island/Cinco-De-Mayo-B
ar-Brawl-On-Long-Island-20100506-kc

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Thursday, May 6, 2010 8:07 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Mexico’s illegals laws tougher than Arizona’s



Wow. If you have to pump yourself up by comparing the U.S. to places that you think are so much worse, I think you've just made the point that we're screwed.

Heck, we should talk about how great our free speech rights are when compared to China's, or how great our gun rights are when compared to North Korea's, right? I mean, we should be going ahead and curbing those rights, because we can always say that China and North Korea have it worse, right?

You sound like you want us to be more like Mexico. Is that what you intended that to sound like?

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, May 6, 2010 8:12 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg




Just a lil somethin somethin on illegal immigration...


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Thursday, May 6, 2010 8:35 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Don't let this bit of intelligence ruin your otherwize zombie-like stupor.

Yes.

Continue to believe that the Arizona law is "raciss"

and poor illegals are bearing the brunt of them bad bad white folks.

Bump for effect.

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Thursday, May 6, 2010 8:55 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Stupid video. The problem with the Arizona law is that police can arrest and detain perfectly legal citizens just 'cuz they might "look" illegal. THAT is the problem, not that we "sympathize" with illegal immigration, idiot.

Not that it makes any sense to you, given you consider that vieo "intelligence"! Gawd, you're so determined to ignore reality you'll grasp at anything to ignore the REAL problem with the law, won't you?
Quote:

I'm always amused when the petulant little children pretend they're on the moral high ground and call others petulant children.


Let's try again: THE PROBLEM WITH THE LAW IS IT LETS POLICE ARREST AND DETAIL AMERICAN CITIZENS BECAUSE THEY MIGHT LOOK LIKE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS!

Forget the inherent racism if you want, the idea that ANYONE, legal or illegal, can be arrested/detained because they LOOK Latino; you really want American citizens put in jail just 'cuz they can't show "papers"??? Wow, talk about civil rights!!!

Or is it that you don't mind American citizens who happen to LOOK Latino being thrown in jail. That would certainly explain it...

...naw, not racist, you...go join your local KKK and scream "Americans for white people only", why don't you. I'd wonder why you can't spell "racist"--except I know the answer.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, May 6, 2010 9:04 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Uh huh Nix...

Raciss, so raciss... its terrible.

Im sure you look forward to our Mexicant overlords.. :)P

Cus remember,

Mexi rhymes with sexy!


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Thursday, May 6, 2010 9:25 AM

DREAMTROVE


Oh look, racism, how quaint.

Okay, Mike, I get it. I snark Wulf perpetually the way you snark Rap.


A few thoughts: Pizmo, you're not getting it. Check out the neonazis, they don't care about blacks. They care about Mexicans. Watch Wulf's video. Some black guy ragging on immigrants. This whole neofascism is actually cultural, not racial, but it's just as bigotted. (actually, the old one was culture too: jews and serbs were just as white as the germans, much more so than the japanese.) Old Nazis were also not so particularly anti-black. It was easier to escape persecution if you were black, relatively.

The attack here is that "these people" bring disease, poverty and differentness. These people in this case are actually often not Mexican at all but Guatemalan.

Black people aren't different enough to trigger most of the bigotry on the fear of otherness scale. Sure, once they got rid of the latinos they would start on someone else, probably mulims, but eventually they're get to blacks. Unless they were black when they were doing it.

Quote:


Mexico’s illegals laws tougher than Arizona’s



Good point

Quote:

I think you've just made the point that we're screwed.


Better point.

Of course, Mexico isn't in our situation, we can handle the population increase, they can't. Mexico has some corruption issues to deal with, which I'm sure they would do better without our interference. We, of course, have corruption problems of our own, which we should be focusing on instead of Mexico's.

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Thursday, May 6, 2010 9:30 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


DT:

Yes... its all about rciss-ism.

A black person railing against illegal immigrants... must be raciss. Somehow.

It couldnt be that most every American citizen, despite skin color, does not want illegals here...

No, that would be too simple. Too true. To... un-PC?

Naw... couldn't be that.


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Thursday, May 6, 2010 9:33 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Remember folks...

Anything that is un-Pc, against the progressive/democrab/hippie/socialistic overlords is...

anyone? anyone?

Bueller?

YES!

Raciss!

Just trust in the elitists!

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Thursday, May 6, 2010 9:43 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


All good points, DT, well said. The only caveat I'd add is "Blacks aren't different enough NOW", or else "Blacks aren't important enough ON BORDER STATES".

If the politicians who are elected to office are any indication (and they should be), racism is alive and well in the South (irregardless of how regular people feel)--there, I'd bet Blacks, Muslims AND immigrants are targets. But in border states, I'd put money on bigotry against immigrants, lega or not, is aimed more at Latinos.

Ah, me, I should have known. None of what I pointed out meant the tiniest bit to Wulf, he had to post three time to reassure himself! "The Constitution I guard so fervently means nothing when it comes to those I don't like; my mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts". Yup.

Once again: Crappy, er, WULF is here to be over the top and get a reaction, facts notwithstanding. I wonder if they know one another? They certainly sound alike, and I've come to believe their motive is identical: "Post something so stupid it'll get 'em riled up!"

They're both so funny, once you've read enough of their stuff...


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, May 6, 2010 9:50 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Oh no!!!

The "strawman" argument!

Can't fight the truth, so we've got to disavow it somehow!

Make it seem that I = Rap...

yeah, that'll work!

To quote Patton v Rommel:

"Rommel (i.e National Socialist/Progressive/Democrabs), you magnificant bastard! I READ YOUR BOOK!"

(i.e. I know how you fungi think!)




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Thursday, May 6, 2010 9:59 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg




YES!!

Play the race card

AND

the strawman argument!!!

Whoohoo!


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Thursday, May 6, 2010 12:33 PM

DREAMTROVE


Niki

Good point. But that's because it's cultural, and always was. S. African blacks are very different from whites, cutlurally. It used to be true here too, but now, not so much.

Wulf and Rap doesn't post to rile others up, they, themselves, get so easily riled up.

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Thursday, May 6, 2010 2:49 PM

TRAVELER


A truck driver is arrested while stopping at a weigh station. He commited no crime except for being Hispanic.




http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Thursday, May 6, 2010 5:59 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

kwicko-

Just consider the damage done to America by opponents of minimum wage laws, who will hire people illegally to circumvent paying even a low minimum wage.



why should a business be told what to pay? if someone is willing to work for $3hr, thats their business. thats how the market works. it just might allow that company to offer its product at a lower price. what is the minimum wage law but an arbitrary price control- and when have they been effective? i dont demonize the businesses, per se, for hiring illegally- they dont write the job killing regulations theyre forced to comply with. would it be better they close down, before hiring someone at a wage they deem appropriate? and to satisfy who, but bleeding heart liberal legistlators

Quote:

That works both ways. You want to hold illegals responsible for doing illegal acts, yet you'll give employers a free pass for committing a crime in hiring them. In fact, you'll lobby that it shouldn't even BE a crime to hire illegals.

More than a li'l bit of a double standard there, wouldn't you say?



i dont see anything wrong with migrant worker programs, we've been doing that in this country for ever now. the problem is offering them all the perks of citizenship, when that includes schooling, hospitals and even our prison systems. but should we fine the employers for hiring these people? how is that a productive way of ensuring americans get hired instead, with higher wages no less? its counterproductive. so change the minimum wage laws, and allow americans to legally work for less. clearly, that is what the market demands in those instances. otherwise, you will just force the entire company to head overseas, where they wont have to deal with near as much antagonism from politicians

and speaking overal, if the economy were booming, with a solid growth trajectory, not burderned by regulation.. its concievable we would have more then enough work and wealth to go around! all this wouldnt be the problem it is. but the reality is, the country is bankrupt! we're losing our wealth because we arent as productive as we once were, and a big contribution to this is the burdensome, increasing taxes and regulation we levy on business here. we've encouraged this scenario to take place

Quote:


I take it that you're 100% pure native American, then? No immigrant blood in you at all? Because if you are, then you came from those same poor and desperate who fled their countries' internal revolutions, all the way back to the Mayflower and before. Look it up; we're a nation of people who bailed on their country and came here because it was easier than trying to overthrow whatever governmental system they left behind.



but if youll recall, the ties we not severed instantly- and the home country sent an entire military across the ocean to distinguish this movement towards independence. and as luck would have it, the colonists defeated the greatest power the world had known at the time. it is perfectly within the capability of these people, to revolt and reform and transform their home countries- its been done!

im not saying whether i agree or disagree with the Arizona law- although i believe they have a right under the 10th amendment to decide for themselves. obviously im an immigrant, any european on the american contininent is- and that goes for most latinos who have spanish ancestors. whats the point? that doesnt allow me free citizenship anywhere on the continent. the comparisons a bit like apples and oranges, since the pilgrams didnt escape to the new world, with the prospect of free healthcare and schooling on arrival


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Thursday, May 6, 2010 6:10 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Uh, Anti, what about all the Tea Partiers who are scared their Medicare and/or SSI will be taken away? You don’t think THEY’re insisting we maintain this pervasive wellfare state“? It’s not that cut and dried to blame the “left” for everything.



well.. i havent heard anyone in the tea party demanding protection for medicare/SSI, outside of maybe haulting the theft from those accounts. ideally, one day we will have a transition period, when we can phase these programs out, offer people private options, that dont involve government coercion. but if you want to be consistent, under the constitution, we wouldnt even have these programs! so yes they are 'leftist' programs, and if people support them, they are sypathizers. but i dont find it very compassionate to hault aid to people whom we've conditioned to be dependant, so naturally there has to be a transition, but the overall goal is to eventually eliminate these government entitlement programs.

.. that its taken the country this long to reevaluate its beliefs doesnt bother me. clearly people are reflecting on long held beliefs. its only a matter of time before we're all on the same page and consistent, when we talk about limited government


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Friday, May 7, 2010 3:13 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:

A few thoughts: Pizmo, you're not getting it.



Heh - we just get "it" differently. This is certainly not an attempt to "send all Latinos back across the border." The south west is as much for Latinos as any other race; history, culture, everything, Latinos are part of the fabric. Plus, the politicos of Arizona are neither that stupid or that competent - so there's a built in fail safe.
They just want to stop illegals from coming across the border with Mexico. They can't build a wall, they aren't getting support from Washington (they're busy, don't blame them), and no one else has a clue, so they have this.
I just don't think it's racism. If Police went after Latinos that they KNEW were US citizens, then I'd say it's racism. I also don't have "fuggin' cops!" attitude that a lot of people have on this board. I couldn't do their job every day. I deal with basic customer service - that's enough - people are nuts! Throw race in and it's just crazier. So I don't jump to the conclusion that this means cops are going to stop everything else and go after law abiding Latinos.

There are plenty of immigrants that go through the process of becoming legal citizens - it's not hard, it just takes time, you can even get help. If you can't be bothered to give it that much then, you know, whatever your race, fuck off.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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