Hold onto your seats, folks, here we go... Let's see, if a citizen were DEEMED to have "provided material support or resources to a foreign terrorist or..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Lieberman bill aims to strip certain Americans of their citizenship

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Saturday, May 8, 2010 09:58
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 754
PAGE 1 of 1

Friday, May 7, 2010 8:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hold onto your seats, folks, here we go... Let's see, if a citizen were DEEMED to have "provided material support or resources to a foreign terrorist organization AS DESIGNATED BY THE SECRETARY OF STATE" and "information from other sources could also 'lead the state department to make the decision [that the person had declared the intent to renounce their citizenship]'". Uhhh, anyone remember McCarthyism?
Quote:

If the Terrorist Expatriation Act passes, an American would lose citizenship if found to have provided material support or resources to a foreign terrorist organization -- as designated by the secretary of state -- or participated in actions against the United States.

Sens. Joe Lieberman, I-Connecticut, and Scott Brown, R-Massachusetts, co-sponsored the bill. An identical bill is being introduced in the House by Reps. Jason Altmire, D-Pennsylvania, and Charlie Dent, R-Pennsylvania.

"As the attempted terrorist attack on Times Square showed us again, our enemies today are even more willing than the Nazis or fascists were to kill innocent civilian Americans [in WWII]," Lieberman, chairman of the Senate Homeland Security Committee, told reporters. "Our enemies today are stateless actors who don't wear uniforms and plot against Americans abroad and here in the United States."

"The bill we're introducing today would simply update the 1940 law to account for the enemy that we are fighting today," he said. "Many have said this law goes too far. Remember, this bill only updates an existing statute that has been on the books for 70 years that accounts for the terrorist enemy that we are fighting today."

Brian Fallon, a spokesman for New York Sen. Chuck Schumer, said he believes "it would be found unconstitutional in this context and would also be ineffective."

House Minority Leader John Boehner has similar worries, saying the chances of the bill passing "would be pretty difficult under the U.S. Constitution."

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said she likes the "spirit" of the bill, but wants to know more on what constitutes taking away an American's citizenship.

"I do think it's important to know on what basis [they'd lose their citizenship]," she said. "We are committed to due process in our country. ... What's the standard?"

Pelosi said she'd have to see the language of the bill before deciding whether to support it.

Similar legislation, however, has not been successful.

In 2005, Congress sought to make it a felony for a naturalized citizen to vote in an election in their home country, among other things. The bill, introduced in the House, did not muster enough support to bring it to a vote.

Legal experts, meanwhile, argue that the new bill has serious constitutional problems.

"It's unconstitutional," said Christopher Anders, Senior Legislative Counsel to the American Civil Liberties Union." Taking away someone's citizenship is a truly extraordinary step and to do that based on mere suspicion and to be giving that power to government bureaucrats without ever having a court trial will be an amazing step."

Under the new proposed bill, the Department of State would have the ability to revoke an American's citizenship based on a person renouncing their citizenship. The individual, Lieberman stressed, would still have the right to appeal the determination at the State Department -- or take it to federal court.

When asked how the State Department would make their decision, Lieberman said a person would have declare the intent to renounce their citizenship -- but added that information from other sources could also "lead the state department to make that conclusion."

Anders said the government often makes mistakes in determining a person's involvement in terrorism. In that case, an American citizen could be rendered stateless if they do not have dual citizenship.

Stephen Vladeck, a professor of law at American University Washington College of Law, said the government defines "providing material support to terrorism" so broadly, "that really the most benign, innocent activity could subject the most harmless Americans to this extreme sanction."

Vladeck predicted that if a case makes its way to the courts, the statute would be in serious trouble.

"Although there have been some crimes that have been historically treated as subject to denaturalization, I think material support is so far away from the kinds of conduct that previously has been punished that way," he said. "I think the fact that this is up to the secretary of state, and not a court, really is going to make it very hard for this statute to survive a constitutional challenge."

The Supreme Court examined citizenship rights in the 1980 case of Vance v. Terrazas. The court's decision held that in determining the loss of citizenship, the government "must prove an intent to surrender United States citizenship, not just the voluntary commission of an expatriating act such as swearing allegiance to a foreign nation."

Altmire said the new bill hasn't changed the government's burden of proof.

"When someone wants to appeal this [ruling], the burden of proof is on the Department of State. And there's a very high legal threshold to remain consistent with the bill. None of that has changed."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/05/06/terrorism.act.change/index.html
?hpt=Sbin


NANCY PELOSI!?!? What the FUCK? That's GOTTA be just a political ploy, or omigawd...!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, May 7, 2010 8:54 AM

BYTEMITE


She said she likes the idea. That suggests personal agreement on some level. The only thing she expressed concern about is that the bill is unclear about the specific circumstances which this would be applicable.

Does this sound like the alien and sedition act to you? This is a page out of the Federalist play book. Do you see why some of us think Neo-Cons and Progressives are two sides of the same coin, with all the "issues" between them just a mock-fight while they do the stuff they really want in the background?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts

Guess what allowed the government to force citizens of Japanese American descent into internment camps?

This plus the Patriot Act together! Oh Happy Days! They sure are looking out for our protection, and this isn't at all about controlling people to the point of thought-crime! Aren't you glad the government exists so all of us bad people who don't make six plus figures a year know our place?

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Friday, May 7, 2010 8:59 AM

BYTEMITE


Frem is going to go apoplectic when he sees this. As if Detroit isn't ALREADY having major citizen/enforcer strife. His friends in the Muslim community are going to be super freaked out.

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Friday, May 7, 2010 9:01 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I'll believe it when I see it, Byte. I think she's up to something, and it's NOT voting for the bill. We'll see.

Aside from making it a crime to publish "false, scandalous, and malicious writing" against the government or its officials, the A&S Act was about RESIDENT ALIENS, not citizens, but yes, I see the similarity!

I have no doubt Frem's already seen it; it's been in the news for a couple of days now.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, May 7, 2010 9:02 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Sens. Joe Lieberman, I-Connecticut, and Scott Brown, R-Massachusetts, co-sponsored the bill. An identical bill is being introduced in the House by Reps. Jason Altmire, D-Pennsylvania, and Charlie Dent, R-Pennsylvania.



Well, at least it's got bi-partisan support.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, May 7, 2010 9:03 AM

BYTEMITE


You certainly have a lot of faith in the progressives then. When I read that it sounds like an outright damn confession to me.

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Friday, May 7, 2010 9:09 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:


Aside from making it a crime to publish "false, scandalous, and malicious writing" against the government or its officials, the A&S Act was about RESIDENT ALIENS, not citizens, but yes, I see the similarity!



Well, that provision falls under "Alien Enemies Act" as part of the Alien and Sedition act, and that part was never repealed and it was expanded in WW2 under title 50. So actually, they are the same.

Only now they're amending it so any "terrorists" in the US, as determined by the Secretary of Defense, no matter their citizenship status or ancestry, can be detained, denaturalized, or deported without due process.

And with the PATRIOT act, the "crime to publish false, scandalous, and malicious writing against the government or its officials" part of the Alien and Sedition Act is back in full effect.

Fun times!

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Friday, May 7, 2010 9:20 AM

DREAMTROVE


Pelosi is evil, she loves the bill, but is afraid to say so until it has more support. The "I don't like this provision" trick is an old one, it says "I really want to support your bill, but it would be political suicide to do so, make it look like I'm a defender of the people here, and I'm yours." which means that she will priobably from a "Pelosi amendment" and then vote for it. If we're really on tilt, someone will throw something in there that Obama cares about more, and he'll sign it into law. Eegads.

Geezer, it has tri-partisan support ;)

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Friday, May 7, 2010 9:30 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Poison pill.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrecking_amendment
I was expecting this two years ago.

Gameplan already in motion - what took the bitch so long ?

-F

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Friday, May 7, 2010 9:34 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I'll believe it when I see it. I have no love for Pelosi, but I think it would be political suicide for most anyone to vote for it, amendments or not, if it even made it out of committee! I KNOW neither Boxer nor Woolsey will go for it...I don't think DiFi would either. If it even got that far.

Pelosi's not evil, she's just a politician...tho' "evil politician" might well be a redundancy, I admit.

I just think it's sick that slimy old bastard Lieberman is up to his usual shit. I think it'd fail constitutionally if challenged, and I don't think it's got a hope in hell of passing. We'll see.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, May 7, 2010 11:41 AM

DREAMTROVE


Niki

That's basically what I said, that Pelosi doesn't want to be alone in voting for it. Think about it. After all, they voted for the patriot act and the iraq war. That would have killed anyone's career if they had supported it alone, or been the lone person to cross party lines in favor of it.

As for Pelosi being evil, that's hardly news.


Frem

I know poison bill, but I don't get your point. Are you saying this is a poison pill? Or that it should get poison pilled?

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Friday, May 7, 2010 12:05 PM

BYTEMITE


Maybe he's saying that Pelosi's not-quite-support is a poison pill.

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Friday, May 7, 2010 12:47 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Sens. Joe Lieberman, I-Connecticut, and Scott Brown, R-Massachusetts, co-sponsored the bill. An identical bill is being introduced in the House by Reps. Jason Altmire, D-Pennsylvania, and Charlie Dent, R-Pennsylvania.



Well, at least it's got bi-partisan support.

"Keep the Shiny side up"




And to be honest, that scares me more than anything. Patriot Act had lots of bipartisan support, too.


Think about this for a second. And this is for anyone who's even THINKING about supporting this garbage; just ask yourself this: Do you REALLY want Hillary Clinton to have any say over whether or not you're affiliating with undesirables? Really?

Wulfie, for instance; you're down with the militias, right? And you HAVE said that you'd like a .308 round to decide if Obama's really the President - remarks which were passed along to the Secret Service, I believe. Should you be stripped of your citizenship rights?

Also, what happens when some bright young up-and-comer at the State Department decides that some journalist is giving a li'l too much coverage to, say, Al Qaeda's side of the story? Does that journalist lose his or her rights?

Just a few things to ponder.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Saturday, May 8, 2010 9:58 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Do you REALLY want Hillary Clinton to have any say over whether or not you're affiliating with undesirables? Really?
Yes, I found that an amusing counter-point to the argument that they don't seem to consider...

I happen to see it the opposite way from what you do, DT:
Quote:

That would have killed anyone's career if they had supported it alone, or been the lone person to cross party lines in favor of it.
It would have killed anyone's career to NOT support it, or been the lone person to cross the prevailing attitude and power of the Dumbya administration to oppose it.

Maybe that shows in large part our many differences: I see politicians/governments as potentially having views which might be moral and valid, but being afraid to stand up for them; you SEEM to see politicians/governments as invariably evil, and only needing support to implement that evil. I'd rather see it my way.

We'll just have to see which one of us is right on this issue. Time will tell. I'll be very disappointed if this flies, and downright disheartened if the Supremes (right-leaning as they are) uphold it.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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