REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

71 % of voters in Missouri reject ObamaCare

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Friday, August 6, 2010 06:25
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Tuesday, August 3, 2010 11:31 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Missouri voters on Tuesday overwhelmingly rejected a federal mandate to purchase health insurance, rebuking President Barack Obama's administration and giving Republicans their first political victory in a national campaign to overturn the controversial health care law passed by Congress in March.

"The citizens of the Show-Me State don't want Washington involved in their health care decisions," said Sen. Jane Cunningham, R-Chesterfield, one of the sponsors of the legislation that put Proposition C on the August ballot. She credited a grass-roots campaign involving Tea Party and patriot groups with building support for the anti-Washington proposition.

With most of the vote counted, Proposition C was winning by a ratio of nearly 3 to 1. The measure, which seeks to exempt Missouri from the insurance mandate in the new health care law, includes a provision that would change how insurance companies that go out of business in Missouri liquidate their assets.

"I've never seen anything like it," Cunningham said at a campaign gathering at a private home in Town and Country. "Citizens wanted their voices to be heard."
About 30 Proposition C supporters whooped it up loudly at 9 p.m. when the returns flashed on the television showing the measure passing with more than 70 percent of the vote.

"It's the vote heard 'round the world," said Dwight Janson, 53, from Glendale, clad in an American flag-patterned shirt. Janson said he went to one of the first Tea Party gatherings last year and hopped on the Proposition C bandwagon because he wanted to make a difference.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_c847dc7c-
564c-5c70-8d90-dfd25ae6de56.html






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Wednesday, August 4, 2010 7:18 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


71 % folks...

That's nearly 3/4 of all voters.

Against ObamaCare.

They don't want it.


November is coming.




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Wednesday, August 4, 2010 7:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, goodie, I can sink my teeth into THAT one!
Quote:

The latest Associated Press-GfK poll shows that support for President Barack Obama's health-care overhaul has risen to its highest point since the survey started asking people about it in September.

The results now: 45 percent in favor, 42 percent opposed.

http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live/content/national_world/stories/20
10/06/18/copy/Poll-Health-care-law-gains-support.html?adsec=politics&sid=101


Well, we know about Missouri, but the American People are more than Missouri, sadly for you.

Then there's New Jersey:
Quote:

New Jerseyans support the health care reform law passed by Congress and signed by President Barack Obama, a new Rutgers-Eagleton Poll shows. While a late February Rutgers-Eagleton Poll found that 48 percent of New Jersey residents now support the law, while 40 percent oppose it, and 12 percent don’t know. Support is slightly lower among registered voters at 47 percent, with 41 percent opposing the bill.
http://eagletonpoll.blogspot.com/2010/04/nj-supports-health-care-refor
m-bill.html



For one thing, it was REPUBLICANS in favor of a health-care mandate for decades (in fact they originally proposed it)...until of course a Democrat agreed with it.
Quote:

Over the course of the White House summit on health care reform, Republican members of Congress repeatedly reminded Americans of their opposition to the controversial individual mandate or requirement to purchase insurance.

In fact, says Len Nichols of the New America Foundation, the individual mandate was originally a Republican idea. “It was invented by Mark Pauly to give to George Bush Sr. back in the day, as a competition to the employer mandate focus of the Democrats at the time.”…

“We called this responsible national health insurance,” says Pauly. “There was a kind of an ethical and moral support for the notion that people shouldn’t be allowed to free-ride on the charity of fellow citizens.”

The policy was originally included in many Republican proposals including the proposals during the Clinton administration. The leading GOP alternative plan known as the 1994 Consumer Choice Health Security Act included the requirement to purchase insurance. Further, this proposal was based off of a 1990 Heritage Foundation proposal outlined a quality health system where “government would require, by law every head of household to acquire at least a basic health plan for his or her family.”

So, as usual, they propose things and/or are in favor of things until Democrats are in power. Then OMIGAWD, what a bad idea!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, August 4, 2010 8:00 AM

RIVERLOVE


Great new for the coming elections! And great news the other day when the Federal Judge refused Obama's lawyer's request to dismiss Virginia's lawsuit against Obamacare. The lawsuit is moving forward. Texas, Florida and a dozen other states are all suing, and I'd say, even at this early stage, that Obamcare will never happen. Never happen due to the courts scrapping the whole un-constitutional mess, or when the power in DC changes soon.

Obama's new numbers from Gallop Poll are 41% approval rating. Even when his ratings were in the 60%+ range less than a year ago, he failed to deliver victories in VA, NJ, and Mass...all former Dem strongholds. Obama is toxic, as in toxic oil spill, and toxic economic & foreign policy.

I do feel bad though for U.S. Senator from Missouri, Claire McCaskill. This 71% against Obamacare vote in her state must be a hard blow for her to stomach. She seems like a nice lady who cares. Unfortunately she's also a Obama/Reid drone. Did they really think that any of them would get away with the Obamacare corruption and fraud?

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Wednesday, August 4, 2010 8:05 AM

KANEMAN


The only thing going for McCaskill is she has a vagina....and that ain't saying much. Not in Missouri. Gayest state in the nation. Outside of CA.

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Wednesday, August 4, 2010 8:14 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Don't forget Virginia! (AS IN REJECTING OBAMACARE)

I love my state.


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Wednesday, August 4, 2010 8:18 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:



Quote:

Not in Missouri. Gayest state in the nation. Outside of CA.


Don't forget Virginia!

I love my state.




Don't forget Virginia as gayest state in the nation?


Well, if you say so...

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Wednesday, August 4, 2010 8:59 AM

MINCINGBEAST


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Don't forget Virginia! (AS IN REJECTING OBAMACARE)

I love my state.




Presently in Richmond. The weather is bad; the locals are worse. I can hardly wait to return to civilization (California is synonymous with civilization and sodomy).

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Wednesday, August 4, 2010 9:12 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Well, lets pray the process works. If it does, and we get these bastards out, we might not have to fire a shot.

Which would be a good thing.

So heres to hope. (The real kind)

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Wednesday, August 4, 2010 9:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


(sigh)...oh, Wulf, you are going to be SO disappointed. No matter what happens, the government will never change enough for you. So don't go dreaming of some fantasy government that will fit all your parameters...or go ahead and do so, but it won't happen.

The might not have to fire a shot" is getting reeeely old...the revolution you threaten wouldn't make it how you like, either, in fact it would make it FAR worse!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, August 4, 2010 9:31 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
(sigh)...oh, Wulf, you are going to be SO disappointed. No matter what happens, the government will never change enough for you. So don't go dreaming of some fantasy government that will fit all your parameters...or go ahead and do so, but it won't happen.

The might not have to fire a shot" is getting reeeely old...the revolution you threaten wouldn't make it how you like, either, in fact it would make it FAR worse!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off






Wulf, my sockpuppet, tell her she is a stupid cunt and the fantasy you dream about we already had...tell her wulf...tell her. Explain our founding fathers and the world America had in the 1700-1800...tell her wulf...tell her. And add in cunt and libtard....

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Wednesday, August 4, 2010 9:40 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Um, Kane?

No thanks.

But if YOU feel like doing that, go right ahead.

Free speech and all.

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Wednesday, August 4, 2010 9:52 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Um, Kane?

No thanks.

But if YOU feel like doing that, go right ahead.

Free speech and all.



You are damned. Grab your national ID card, buy your insurance, bend over and kiss NIKI's ass.....apologize later or disappear.....yes that is a warning.....

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Wednesday, August 4, 2010 9:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Thank you for your decency, Wulf. One reason I choose not to think of you as a sickpuppy of RivKaneKirkAntiJFS is thate, even when angry and nasty, you don't resort to the absolute filth and obscenities they do. Whether I disagree with you or am frustrated by your fantasies, at least I recognize you have some honor.

I'm sorry it's targeted you for not being willing to stoop to it's level, but I'm glad you're willing to let it do those things--IT, I ignore: you, I do not.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, August 4, 2010 10:12 AM

RIVERLOVE


Hey Nikibitch...

This is taken from one of your darling genteel and non-offensive pal's newest post today:

Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
If you (Kaneman) and Riverlove wanna sit around all day shitting and vomiting directly into each others' mouths, go for it.



Now isn't that just so nice and perfect! I'm sure you approve.

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Wednesday, August 4, 2010 10:33 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Its all free speech, one way or the other.

However, sometimes I think that if we can bend away from being outright vulgar and derrogatory, we might get more done.

(Yes, I whole-heartedly agree that laying into someone and giving them both barrels, and a a 6-shot besides, feels REALLY good...but thats like good bourbon. Enjoyed fully, but only once in a while.)


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Wednesday, August 4, 2010 3:53 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well said, Wulf. I wanted you to know that I've made note of your civility of late; however much we disagree, I appreciate it.

As to the quote, I've been trying not to stoop to that level--and sometimes I fail. But I've certainly never called anyone a cunt or whore that I can recall, and there is absolutely NO comparison between your and your alternate personality's consistent filth aimed at me.

In other words, the point you're trying to make is totally irrelevant, coming from you! I can do better just from today than one quote out of all the things I've written...you defeat yourself with such a weak argument.

Oh, and it's NikObitch, if you want to be accurate. Given my name is Nikovich, it's more accurate. I call myself that sometimes in my bitchier moments.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, August 4, 2010 4:19 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
The leading GOP alternative plan known as the 1994 Consumer Choice Health Security Act included the requirement to purchase insurance.



It also provided a tax credit to quite a bit of the health insurance cost.

Quote:

(a) ALLOWANCE OF CREDIT- In the case of a qualified individual, there shall be allowed as a credit against the tax imposed by this subtitle for the taxable year an amount equal to the applicable percentage of the sum of--

`(1) 25 percent of the sum of the qualified health insurance premiums and the unreimbursed expenses for medical care paid by such individual during the taxable year which does not exceed 10 percent of the adjusted gross income of such individual for such year, plus

`(2) 50 percent of the sum of such premiums and such unreimbursed expenses so paid which exceeds 10 percent but does not exceed 20 percent of such adjusted gross income, plus

`(3) 75 percent of the sum of such premiums and such unreimbursed expenses so paid which exceeds 20 percent of such adjusted gross income.



http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c103:3:./temp/~mdbsuBz5pu:e8928:



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, August 4, 2010 4:41 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
Hey Nikibitch...

This is taken from one of your darling genteel and non-offensive pal's newest post today:

Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
If you (Kaneman) and Riverlove wanna sit around all day shitting and vomiting directly into each others' mouths, go for it.



Now isn't that just so nice and perfect! I'm sure you approve.



And I'm sure you have no room to DISAPPROVE. Besides, what I wrote is 100% accurate. You and Kaney are coprophages; you feed on feces, and you both feed directly from the others' rectum.

Now why don't you go cry to Haken about it?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Thursday, August 5, 2010 1:01 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


If you (Kaneman) and Riverlove wanna sit around all day shitting and vomiting directly into each others' mouths, go for it.

You and Kaney are coprophages; you feed on feces, and you both feed directly from the others' rectum.

Now why don't you go cry to Haken about it?




Hey Kwicko ya fuck, who do you think you are? Actually I already know who you are because you've said it yourself. You are a sad and pathetic LOSER who labors as a lowly fucking SHIPPING CLERK on some hot roach-infested dirty dock, and then you go home to your trailer in some scummy shithole in Texas. What do you make a year?....$25K? ....$35K? I make 10 times that. You dropped out of High School because you got your overweight tatooed and pierced slut girlfriend knocked up and married her, but actually it was half the football team that banged the shit out of her and left only sloppy 15ths for your little limp dick.

As far as eating anything as you so colorfully posted, you can continue to eat me!

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 3:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Please, don't feed the trolls.

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 4:03 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Yanno, I'M against Obamacare. Obama had a clear mandate to include some form of public option. He killed it before it could even be discussed.

What I find stellarly brain-dead tho is the right-wing's criticism of the plan because it's not LEFT ENOUGH AND CAVES TO BIG BUSINESS. So on the one hand they like healthcare monopolies because all's fair in love and business, and on the other hand they hate it? Just goes to prove: Obama can do NOTHING to please these folks because they see nothing wrong in holding completely contradictory positions in the very same train of thought.

AT some point CA may also have to vote against Obama care because CA will try to emplace a single-payer plan. The idea is to take all monies currently spent on health care (Medicaid, Medicare, private health insurance) and put it under one roof. THAT would require that CA get a waiver from contributing to Obamacare. And I'm OK with that.

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 4:15 AM

BYTEMITE


...If Missouri rejects it by 71%, that should probably be allowed to stand, at least for them. They might change their minds later, who knows, but I don't like how high-handed this whole thing has been myself. The process I would've like to have seen is everyone agreeing on what the problems were with health care, made some proposals on how to fix it, then had them all go home and draft up their own versions of how to implement it and pass it on the state level.

I have friends in Missouri. I wonder if they wouldn't mind me crashing at their place... For a little while... if I have to...

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 6:01 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sig: Everything you said, 100%. I hope we DO go our own way, and yes, the one thing I've never forgiven Obama for is giving up on the single-payor plan. I'm holding out hope this is just the first step and, like DADT and gay marriage, we'll progress in time. Hey, I'm allowed to hope!!

As to the trolls, yeah, I'm starting to ignore them. For one thing, they've gotten so downright predicable and boring with their consistent obscenities that it's not even worth bothering to read. Not hard.

Byte, I agree, except that NOTHING would have gotten a single vote from a Republican, however logical, perfect, reasonable, etc. The plan is to be Party of No on virtually everything--more and more I'm becoming convinced that what I heard may be true: that they're actually TRYING to run the country into the ground with the thought that they can get their guy in the White House in 2012, then take credit for things getting better. I still find it incomprehensible, but the longer this goes on...extension for unemployment benefits, saying we should drill immediately despite the problems with rigs, stopping loans to small business, wanting the tax cuts to continue despite the deficit being what they complain about endlessly, and stopping anything and everything they can. It's just too pat, and more and more I'm swinging to believing that, which I find unconscionable!

So NO healthcare plan would have passed with any help from the right; ergo, they were forced to do it however they could, as a first step. Even tho' Obama cowed to so many of their demands, he STILL isn't learning that they won't vote on anything he proposes. I wish he'd wake up to that!

Mike, I got a giggle; I thought I'D posted that crack...couldn't remember it and it didn't seem like something I'd say, but since it was aimed at me, I didn't read it carefully and just assumed I wrote it. Hah!

I'm not responsible for anyone else, and I repeat: anything ANY one else says can't hold a candle to what "It" post every day, in every one of It's posts. So I don't know why It bothers to put up anything from anyone else, it's irrelevant.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Thursday, August 5, 2010 6:31 AM

RIVERLOVE


Typical Liberal horseshit from Nikibitch and Signyhiney. The voters have spoken, and they rejected 3-1 against Obama and his patheticially bribed illegal govt. takeover of our lives. Obamcare will NEVER happen! By 2014 when it's "supposed" to start, Obama and the rest of the fucking Dem traitors will be distant memories. BTW Signy, how's your dirty cunt these days? You get that foul diseased thing cleaned up yet?

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 6:45 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Rappy, you've pointed out elsewhere that 95% of the people of this country believe in "God™". As you pointed out, you can get people to believe just about anything - including the idea that health care is evil.

It's even easier to get people in Missouri to believe that. Hell, 75% of them no doubt believe that brushing their tooth is evil.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Thursday, August 5, 2010 7:11 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

It's even easier to get people in Missouri to believe that. Hell, 75% of them no doubt believe that brushing their tooth is evil.


...With fluoride? Because they may have a point.

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 7:56 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Supremacy Clause is likely to come into play on this one.

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 8:24 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Nah, Byte...fluoride is a Communist conspiracy, remember? A la Sharon Angle anyway...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Thursday, August 5, 2010 8:54 AM

BYTEMITE


Actually, it's a poisonous highly reactive and carcinogenic substance that can actually cross the blood brain barrier and bioaccumulate. It comes from two sources: the first is the fertilizer industry, the second is from uranium hexafluoride, utilized in processing uranium to make it more fissile.

Boy oh boy, what a surprise that the "evidence" for fluoride as effective cavity prevention and teeth calcium remineralization came around mostly in the 50s and 60s when they were building all those nuclear power plants. Oh yep, they weren't trying to figure out a way to get rid of it all, no siree. It makes complete sense that rubbing around fluoride on your teeth will precipitate TOOTH enamel, and not calcium fluoride, and that it doesn't particularly matter if you're rubbing it over a place where you're forming a cavity or not, it makes the caries magically go away.

Sorry, rant. But the American Dental Association is a bunch of idiots. They don't do their own studies, they aren't scientists, and in a desperate attempt to not own up to possibly being wrong about fluoride they only post studies that support fluoridation. They have a clear and obvious bias.

EPA scientists don't think we should fluoridate water, you know.

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 10:55 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I'm reminded that even water is toxic in large enough amounts...

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Thursday, August 5, 2010 11:10 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Rappy, you've pointed out elsewhere that 95% of the people of this country believe in "God™". As you pointed out, you can get people to believe just about anything - including the idea that health care is evil.

It's even easier to get people in Missouri to believe that. Hell, 75% of them no doubt believe that brushing their tooth is evil.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.




Hey you dishonest cock eater. Why do you distort facts as easily as you spread your cheeks. No one thinks health care is evil and no one is giving it to you....You are mandated by threat of fines to BUY IT you stupid fuck. Only you would know a scientific word for eating shit out of another's rectum, butt somehow you try to convince me you don't love man-ass. You homosexuals are pathetic. Blame god for making you a biological misfit and an abomination. Mr. Kwicko must cringe when he see's you walking up to his door. He is full of shame for ever having you, that I'll guarantee. Go ship that shipping clerk.

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 11:36 AM

BYTEMITE


Kwicko: There's some good arguments to suggest that the Maximum Contaminant Level for fluoride in water has been set artificially high by the EPA Administration back when it was under Utah's own Mike Leavitt. The fluoride decision Mike Leavitt made was influenced by politics and money.

I'm taking into account relative toxicology, I assure you, and I really think fluoridation in water is a reckless long term practice.

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 12:25 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

you can get people to believe just about anything - including the idea that health care is evil.



What's evil is the idea that the Gov't takes our $$ and then " spreads the wealth ", under the phony guise of "healthcare". Keeping oneself healthy is, by a very large measure, the job of the individual, not the state.

Quote:


It's even easier to get people in Missouri to believe that. Hell, 75% of them no doubt believe that brushing their tooth is evil.



No doubt ? Do you have any evidence of that ? How can you support your claim? If they agree with you, then they must be right and all is well. If they don't, then they're stupid hayseed hicks who don't know which end to hold the toothbrush.

Guess you'd say the same of all those idiots in California, the 7 million or so who voted for Prop 8, only to have a single judge ( for now ) toss out their wishes.

The cumulative effect of tyrannical, activist courts denying the will of the people won't go with out some major repercussions.

Don't pretend you weren't warned.




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Friday, August 6, 2010 2:54 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Guess you'd say the same of all those idiots in California, the 7 million or so who voted for Prop 8, only to have a single judge ( for now ) toss out their wishes.



There are activist judges on both sides. The judge who ruled against the Obama ban on drilling was said to be beholding to the oil industry due to his stock portfolio. The environmentalists cried foul play and that he should have removed himself from the case. Now, this openly gay judge has ruled on gay marraige.

There's a lot of hot air being spewed from bloviating pundits about the defeat of Prop 8. It's clear to me that the reason it was overturned was that those lawyers opposing gay marraige could not make a compelling legal argument against it. The argument they chose to make, the one about "damaging" children was absolutley ridiculous. Reminded me of how easy it was for Harvey Milk to make his opponents look like blithering idiots when he was fighting for gay rights 30 years ago. If people want to oppose gay marraige, they need to actually come up with a legal reason for it, not some doom & gloom scenario based on ideology. Their problem, I believe, is that they will never find one.

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Friday, August 6, 2010 6:25 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

those lawyers opposing gay marraige could not make a compelling legal argument against it
Bang on. From what I've heard and read, that ws precisely the situation. I, too, doubt they will be able to think up a valid one.

As to activist judges on both sides, of course there are. Otherwise we wwouldn't have gotten the "corporations as people" ruling, and now be in danger of losing the 14th Amendment. The cry of "activist judge!" is politispeak used as a pejorative virtually every time a Democrat judge is nominated, but the truth is there are plenty on both sides.
Quote:

The question of judicial activism is closely related to constitutional interpretation, statutory construction, and separation of powers.

Detractors of judicial activism charge that it usurps the power of the elected branches of government or appointed agencies, damaging the rule of law and democracy.[11] Defenders of judicial activism say that in many cases it is a legitimate form of judicial review, and that the interpretation of the law must change with changing times.

A third view is that so-called "objective" interpretation of the law does not exist. According to law professor Brian Z. Tamanaha, "Throughout the so-called formalist age, it turns out, many prominent judges and jurists acknowledged that there were gaps and uncertainties in the law and that judges must sometimes make choices."[12]

Wiki
Quote:

But the current climate of hostility to the judiciary cannot be written off as a product of the lunatic fringe. Attacks on “activist judges”—a phrase that, like “the elites,” has become a code word for liberals—are regularly issued by Republican officeholders from the White House to state legislatures. The assault on an independent judiciary has always been an integral part of the Rovian political strategy that put President George W. Bush in office.

The truth is that the real issue is not the activism of judges but the principles upon which they are acting.

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/08/14/the_activist_judge_myth.ph
p
Quote:

An Activist Judge is an liberal, Communist, freedom-hating, Hate America Firster, Ivy League graduated, member of the Blame America First Crowd who is part of an entire collective of mind-linked activist judges who think that they can undermine the president while menstruating the entire time they're on the bench.

The "juristocracy" is out of touch with the mainstream good Americans, and should be burned at the stake for heresy. Activist judges are stripping our nation of its moral fiber. Every American knows the importance of fiber in their diet, well our nation is no different. Our Great country is in need of a morality laxitive. America hasn't had a regular bowel movement in long time.

Activist judges would like to keep stripping America of its moral fiber until America's waste comes out the other end. Activist judges keep our nation constipated.

Activist judges would want to try and put The Greatest President Ever, George W. Bush in jail if they had a chance. They hate everything that has to do with justice. They are just "acting" is if they are on the side of justice but real patriotic Americans know they are really bears in a robe.

http://wikiality.wikia.com/Activist_Judge

There you have it from both sides. Okay, so the right-wing one was pretty bad, but I oouldn't resist. It's actually kinda hard to find something from the right that makes sense. I found rhetoric from the left about it, but most of it I could put up as mild, compared to what I found from the right. From the left:
Quote:

One of the great successes of the legal wing of the conservative movement is the widespread connection in the mind of many citizens and pundits of "liberal" judicial philosophy with "activism," and "conservatism" with "strict constructionism." They'd have us believe that "liberal activist" and "conservative constructionist" are basically redundancies, and that there simply is no such thing as a conservative activist. This is patently untrue.

There is a very simple explanation for why a conservative may be activist and a liberal statist--the state of the law. The Warren Court wanted to overturn precedents, and so it ruled laws passed by Congress and (especially) state legislatures unconstitutional. And as the Court of that era slowly and sometimes not-so-slowly changed the law, the justices by definition needed to be less activist as the state of the law became more amenable to their views--precisely because they had changed the law.

But guess what? The Rehnquist Court did the same thing, as Republican-appointed justices found the laws passed by state legislatures and (especially) Congress during the years of the Great Society and thereafter to be out of line with the political and judicial philosophies they brought to the bench. Accordingly, they ruled to change the law too. Or--if we can pause a moment to act like adults and not be cowed by scary phrases devised by Federalist Society types to be used incessantly during hearings like the one presently underway to confirm Sonia Sotomayor--the Rehnquist Court trafficked heavily in "judge-made law."

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZTcCp8eYEyI/Sl6iADfvtsI/AAAAAAAAAFk/WINbXri3
E1U/s400/SC-federal.JPG


This is the best I could find on the net which I would call "reasonable" from the right. It took me 21 pages into Google to find it, and I can't find anything from the right which is mild enough to consider even semi-objective. Most of what I found was similar to the one I posted from the right above: a partisan rant. So this is the best I could come up with as the definition of "activist" from the right:
Quote:

While some have decried the actions of conservative judges as "activism," these accusations are largely unwarranted. Typically, rulings by conservative judges simply correct liberal activism. In fact, by definition, a genuinely conservative judge will not engage in activism, as he will have a proper understanding of and respect for the role of the judiciary as envisioned by the Founding Fathers. By definition, then, any consistently activist judge is engaging in a liberal interpretation of this role. While judicial activism is a pervasive problem, certain judges have gone beyond the pale in pushing a liberal agenda on the American public.
http://www.conservapedia.com/Activist_judge

I was surprised to find I had to even further in Google to find a somewhat objective definition. This is the best I could find in all those pages:
Quote:

“I define activist as when you make the law rather than interpret the law or apply it,” (Gov. Matt Blunt of Misouri told reporters last week), as he answered questions about his plans to fill a Supreme Court vacancy created by former Chief Justice Ronnie M. White's resignation.

Supreme Court Chief Justice Laura Denvir Stith said: “In general, judicial activism has been defined as a court reaching a result based either on the personal views of the members of the court - or on the views of others, such as special interest groups or popular opinion - rather than based on the facts and the law. As a practical matter, though, people do not give the term activist a static, or consistent, definition.

“Instead, politicians and others usually use the term activist to describe any particular judicial decision with which they disagree, without regard to the underlying facts and law of the case.”

But John Elliott of the Adam Smith Foundation and St. Louis lawyer Bill Placke, president of the St. Louis Federalist Society, both said “Black's Law Dictionary” provides a legal definition all should follow, that judicial activism is “a philosophy of decision-making whereby judges allow their personal views about public policy, among other factors, to guide their decision.”

Placke, who emphasized his responses to the News Tribune questionnaire were his own, and not the Federalist Society's opinions. He said "judicial activism is “a term used by political commentators to describe a tendency by judges to consider outcomes, attitudinal preferences, and other public policy issues in interpreting applicable existing law. ... It is also used pejoratively to describe judges who endorse a particular agenda.”

Sara Schuett, director of the Missouri Association of Trial Lawyers, noted: “Strictly speaking, an activist judge misinterprets or ignores the law (or legal precedence) due to personal opinion or agenda.

Judge Roy Richter of the Eastern District Appeals Court in St. Louis, wrote: “Seemingly, any decision that reverses prior case law (absent some intervening statutory change) would constitute activism.”

But Charley German, president of the Kansas City Metropolitan Bar Association, said: “The phrase activist judges has ... no definition and doesn't deserve one - it really means only that the person using that invective doesn't like a particular court decision.”

Victor Howard, Chief Judge of the Western District Appeals Court in Kansas City, said not all laws are written clearly, and may be “vague, ambiguous or in conflict with other statutes. Consequently interpreting the statute can be difficult. ... But politics or personal interest has no role in our analysis.”

Justice Stith said: “The Supreme Court usually hears only the most difficult - and sometimes the most controversial - legal issues. ... Judges must, and do, decide these cases based on the law, even if they do not personally agree with that law.”

http://www.newstribune.com/articles/2007/08/27/opinion/127op14.txt

That's the best I could find; it has equal remarks about how "activist courts can be either liberal or conservative" and other things that indicate activist judges can be right-wing judges, but I only put up the parts that seemed to me to be the most objective in describing the Conservative definition of "activist".

It did, truly, surprise me that it took so long to find either as objective a definition as this, and surprised me even more that I couldn't find ANY definition other than this from the right that wasn't a rant. I guess that says something, but it saddens me. If anyone can find any better definition from the right which isn't biased
against the left, I'd be most appreciative.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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