...unless you're rich and want to get richer. I approve of this message:[quote]In a very clever television advertisement, Delaware Senate candidate Chri..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Why the Tea Party is not 'you'...

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:19
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1338
PAGE 1 of 1

Monday, October 11, 2010 7:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


...unless you're rich and want to get richer.

I approve of this message:
Quote:

In a very clever television advertisement, Delaware Senate candidate Christine O'Donnell looks directly at the camera and says to voters: "I'm not a witch. ... I'm you." In another ad, O'Donnell says that unlike her Democratic opponent Chris Coons, "I didn't go to Yale. I didn't inherit millions like my opponent. I'm you."

This statement, in a nutshell, is the message of the Tea Party movement.

According to Politico, the casting call for an advertisement that was recently broadcast by the National Republican Senatorial Committee in West Virginia stated that they were searching for the " 'Hicky' Blue Collar look. ... These characters are from West Virginia so think coal miners/trucker looks."

Many conservative candidates this year have been tapping into the tradition of conservative populism, a tradition that has animated right-wing politics since the 1970s.

In their effort to challenge the legacy of the New Deal and the Great Society programs and to overcome the image of country club conservatism, many in the GOP have argued their party best represents average Americans. They have focused on social and cultural issues and anti-establishment rhetoric to claim this mantle. In 2008, Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty, a potential presidential candidate in 2012, talked about "Sam's Club Republicans."

The problem they have to overcome is there is a major disconnect between their message and the record of the Republican Party in which they are running. When Ronald Reagan became president in 1981, he advanced the agenda of supply side economics and economic deregulation. His policies have defined the Republicans ever since.

According to Reagan, economic policies that benefited the wealthiest Americans would have a trickle-down effect that eventually helped lower-income brackets.

Regressive tax cuts that benefit wealthier Americans but generate deficits were also fine since, in the long run, more revenue would flow into the Treasury from rising wages. The voices of conservatives who were skeptical of the theory of supply-side economics rapidly faded away. That includes George H.W. Bush, who in 1980 called Reagan's proposals "voodoo economics."

In his book "Unequal America," political scientist Larry Bartels has documented the effect of these policies. During the conservative era of American politics, the so-called Age of Reagan, the distribution of income and wages has become more unequal in the United States than in comparable countries.

"Under Democratic presidents," Bartels writes, "poor families did slightly better than richer families (at least in proportional terms), producing a modest net decrease in income inequality; under Republican presidents, rich families did vastly better than poorer families, producing a considerable net increase in income inequality."

While there are a number of factors behind these changes, public policy mattered very much. According to Bartels' persuasive account, rising inequality was not just a result of natural market forces such as globalization, but also a product of partisan choices about the direction of economic and fiscal policy.

Americans, he shows, in all income brackets have enjoyed more economic success when Democrats inhabit the White House. Meanwhile, the economic policies of Republican presidents, such as regressive tax cuts, have disproportionately benefited the wealthy.

In another book, political scientists Jacob Hacker and Paul Pierson have reached a similar conclusion. They have shown how the mobilization of business in Washington during the 1970s profoundly effected inequality.

Allying with the Republican Party, the business community pushed for the deregulation of numerous industries, tax cuts for the upper-income classes and policies that weakened organized labor. The result, according to Hacker and Pierson, were policies that left working- and middle-class Americans at the mercy of powerful market forces. Playing defense, many Democrats, including President Clinton, followed this agenda as well.

Although President Obama has continued part of the centrist approach of Clinton on many economic issues, he has also pursued economic policies that have focused on working- and middle-class Americans. His economic stimulus program revolved around government spending for projects that would bring jobs to the unemployed and prevent other jobs from disappearing. His health care reform will expand coverage to more than 30 million Americans who have been left outside the market.

He has pushed for an extension of the Bush tax cuts to all but the highest-income Americans. To be sure, he has been far from successful. The high unemployment rate is evidence that the success of Obama's policies have been limited, and the administration made compromises that avoided more stringent constraints on powerful interests.

Given the history, O'Donnell's ad, as good as it is as a piece of political theater, has its problems.

Her website suggests that O'Donnell, like most Tea Party candidates, will not depart that greatly from the GOP's economic policies of tax reductions, deregulation and the curtailment of government spending.

It might very well be that O'Donnell is one of us, but her party's economic policies have tended to benefit a very narrow and well-off portion of the population.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/10/11/zelizer.odonnell.not.you/index.h
tml?hpt=T2


In a word: Yup.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off





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Monday, October 11, 2010 8:08 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


However, if you're really into dressing up as a Nazi with your son, then the tea-bagging wing of the Republican party *IS* you!

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tea-party-nazi-reenactor-rick-iott-defe
nds/story?id=11845422



The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.


Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Monday, October 11, 2010 8:25 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Okay, that's irrelevant bullshit, in my opinion. I will defend re-enactments to the death, and if nobdy played the Nazi's part in WWII, it would be a pretty pathetic re-enactment!

That's like saying anyone who portrayed the South in a re-enactment was pro-slavery; irrelevant and a ridiculous tactic, whoever uses it!

You're REALLY reaching, Mike--so was the Atlantic!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, October 11, 2010 9:15 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


It's funny, to watch the hyper, ultra extreme far Left scramble and scurry to try to astroturf up some fanatical and far flung propaganda to counter the truly patriotic Americans and solid citizens which make up the Tea Party movement.




Hear that knockin'?

It's November at the door step!


* Oh, and FYI, it wasn't the GOP /NRSC , as is FALSELY being reported, that sent out the casting call for 'hicky' anything..


Quote:

The casting language did not come from the NRSC. An NRSC vendor told the talent agency, in an e-mail provided to POLITICO: "So here’s what we need for casting ... 2 featured characters that will be talking to each other at a diner, conversation back and forth. ... One male- Age about 55.- Looking for someone to represent the middle of the country… Ohio, Pittsburgh, West Virginia area- Middle class ... One male- Age about 45- Middle class- Again, should represent the Ohio, Pittsburgh, West Virginia area of the country."

Brian Walsh, the NRSC's communications director, said: “West Virginians understand that most commercials on television are produced by outside professionals with actors in studios. While it is one thing for actors to impersonate someone they’re not because it’s their job, it is entirely different when a governor is doing that so he can get promoted.”


Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1010/43254.html#ixzz1250AmbPr



Alas, so desperate and out of touch w/ reality is the Left, that they'll say and do ANYTHING. Which really is just par for the course, if ya think about it .




"The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who is winning an argument with a liberal."


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Monday, October 11, 2010 9:48 AM

CANTTAKESKY


The problem with being "me" is that she has no idea who "I" am.

And apparently, neither does anyone else.

Check this out:
Americans are Horribly Misinformed About Who Has Money.

http://www.good.is/post/americans-are-horribly-misinformed-about-who-h
as-money/?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=outbrain


See, we all think the "average" American lives in a 3 BR house in the suburbs or small town, has a TV in every bedroom, and car for every driving adult. We get that idea because the average American on TV and in the movies lives that way.

But in fact, the average American has waaaaay less money than that.

So when this teapot lady says she is "you," she means Dr. and Mrs. Cosby, or Ms. Rachel Green, or "you, there--in the TV."

She's not talking to the tens of millions of Americans who are working 2 jobs so their children won't wear clothes to school that look like curtains, who are 2 weeks away from being on the street, who have to budget their food stamps (1 in 8 Americans are on food stamps). She is not talking to the 15-25% of Americans who are unemployed and underemployed. And she is certainly not talking to the 1.5 million homeless Americans.

Because if she were, she would promise to end the wars the minute she is elected, and return that money back to the American people.

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Monday, October 11, 2010 10:04 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Why the TeaParty is not "you"..

Because you don't have belief.

Because you don't have imagination.

Because you don't understand the basic tenants of freedom and true equality.

Because you have been brainwashed.

Because you don't have juevos.

Because you, and your belief system(s), were disproved long ago and SHOULD have been left in the dust.

:)P

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Monday, October 11, 2010 10:07 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Why the TeaParty is not "you"..

Because you don't have belief.

Because you don't have imagination.

Because you don't understand the basic tenants of freedom and true equality.

Because you have been brainwashed.

Because you don't have juevos.

Because you, and your belief system(s), were disproved long ago and SHOULD have been left in the dust.

:)P




BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, October 11, 2010 10:16 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I will defend re-enactments to the death, and if nobdy played the Nazi's part in WWII, it would be a pretty pathetic re-enactment!


I can't think of any possible reason for a person to do that. Re-enact both sides of the Civil War, fine. Re-enact both sides of the Revolutionary War, fine. But to dress up as a Nazi soldier to re-enact WWII is beyond the pale of good taste. I wonder if they re-enact the activities of the SS Einsatzgruppen soldiers. They were the rear guard to the advancing SS Waffen troops. They would come in later, after the fighting, and round up every Jew, Gypsy, homosexual, etc. Typically there would be a festive opening pogrom, where just a few thousand would be beaten, whipped, and raped to death in the streets, while the whole town watched and/or participated in the fun. Then the other 10's of thousands would be led out of town, forced to jump naked into their own mass graves in a nearby ravine, and then get machine gunned til they were all dead. Babi Yar was the name of a ravine in the Ukraine. 38,000 people were shot to death there in 2 days. Row after row, machine-gunned, then had dirt poured on top, then the next row of victims right on top of the last. Three people actually crawled out and survived out of 38,000. As the Waffen SS swept across Ukraine, southern Russia, and the Balkans, if there wasn't a ravine or pit handy, then the Germans simply had them taken to Chelmo or Treblinka, or any of over 3000 death camps and had them gassed.

So why would a person want to dress as a Nazi and re-enact any of that? Sickest of the sick only.





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Monday, October 11, 2010 10:35 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


I'm not terribly familiar with reenactments, but I'll draw a parallel to something I am more familiar to attempt to answer the question.

Wagner, was a bad bad man. A musical genius who was extremely arrogant and racist. Also he was more than a small inspiration to what became the Nazi's. It a personal decision whether you can appreciate the aesthetic beauty of his music or whether you believe nothing good could come from such an evil man. Not everyone would be familiar with Wagner but I assume most everyone is familiar with star wars. Star Wars music is written in the Wagnerian style. Music like that may have never existed were it not for this evil genius.

So concerning reenactments, I assume it's a personal decision whether you can aesthetically appreciate the portrayal of evil men regardless of you feelings towards those who created it.

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Monday, October 11, 2010 10:40 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


For the same reason some assclown put a cross in a pot of urine and called it art.

Why some say that Israel has a right to exist.

Or some say it shouldn't.

Fred Phelps, Jesse Jackson, Story Mark, Niki..

You are free to be an asshole so long as you are not physically hurting someone.

Its a big world and a big country. With a lot of different(and often stupid) views and ideas.

Good thing about our home. We got room for it all. And the good sense to know whats stupid and whats not.

Plus the written freedoms to back it up.



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Monday, October 11, 2010 11:24 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


CantTake, wonderfully said and exactly on point. I would add those growing older and living in terror of their retirement, people like my husband still working at 72 because we couldn't afford to live otherwise, older people hanging onto their homes by their fingernails because they couldn't afford to LIVE anywhere else.


Oh, crap, Wulf, now I am sorry to see you back. Return to the absurd videos and equally absurd, equally unreal statements. Nothing but bullshit, over and over...what a world you must live in! You haven't been missed by me--the "other" Wulf who actually had something of value to say now and again, HIM I miss. I can't help wondering if thinking just a LITTLE for yourself didn't scare you into running away to stoke up on "talking points" before you could come back or something. What a shame.

Reenactments are not unlike the Society for Creative Anachronism, which created the Renaissance Faires. They are merely an attempt to recreate history so people can get a real feel for things they can't expeience elsewhere. In the Ren Faire's case, it's jousting, an Elizabethan marketplace, etc.

In the case here, it's a reenactment of the Second World War. It's not endorsing anything, and there's no question that it doesn't reenact the horrors of Nazism itself; just like the reenactments of the Civil War, it portrays the BATTLES, not the more horrific aspects of that war (not that the battles aren't horrific enough, but you know what I mean).

It's an activity...a hobby if you will, indulged in by many, many Americans, especially in the more Eastern and Southern states. It's not "art", it's people getting together to have some fun, and people getting together to watch them. It's play acting. Beats the HELL out of some of the other "activities" Americans indulge in to have fun.

And I say again, reenactments would be impossible if someone weren't willing to take the "bad guys'" part. It has NOTHING to do with the individual's own beliefs whatsoever, and as the article said, he'd dressed up for the other side at other times.

To make something out of this is totally assinine and shows a complete lack of the ability to discern between amusement and political stance!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, October 11, 2010 11:34 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
For the same reason some assclown put a cross in a pot of urine and called it art.

Why some say that Israel has a right to exist.

Or some say it shouldn't.

Fred Phelps, Jesse Jackson, Story Mark, Niki..

You are free to be an asshole so long as you are not physically hurting someone.

Its a big world and a big country. With a lot of different(and often stupid) views and ideas.

Good thing about our home. We got room for it all. And the good sense to know whats stupid and whats not.

Plus the written freedoms to back it up.





So, because we disagree with you, and excessive our 1st amendment right to do so, you'll lump us in with Phelps.

Which is rich, considering that with the amount of hateful shit you post, you have far more in common with him. But even then, I'm not going to be a big enough asshole to equate you and he.



"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, October 11, 2010 12:11 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
I'm not terribly familiar with reenactments, but I'll draw a parallel to something I am more familiar to attempt to answer the question.

Wagner, was a bad bad man. A musical genius who was extremely arrogant and racist. Also he was more than a small inspiration to what became the Nazi's. It a personal decision whether you can appreciate the aesthetic beauty of his music or whether you believe nothing good could come from such an evil man. Not everyone would be familiar with Wagner but I assume most everyone is familiar with star wars. Star Wars music is written in the Wagnerian style. Music like that may have never existed were it not for this evil genius.

So concerning reenactments, I assume it's a personal decision whether you can aesthetically appreciate the portrayal of evil men regardless of you feelings towards those who created it.



'Scuse me what?

Wagner was arrogant and a racist, alright.

But he was not evil.

Nor did he inspire the Nazi movement. That's distorting facts to the extreme. Hitler loved Wagner and the drama of his operas may have played a role in inspiring the "scripts" of the nazi ralleys. There is a certain similarity of view between Wagner's drama and Nazi views (good v. evil). Wagner was inspired by German mythology.

But to claim he was "no small inspiration" to the Nazis is just plain wrong. Neither were Wagner's views in any way unique at his time (anti-semitism was en vogue and widely socially accepted), nor was he politically a fascist. He was a bigot but not an "evil man".

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Monday, October 11, 2010 1:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Okay, that's irrelevant bullshit, in my opinion. I will defend re-enactments to the death, and if nobdy played the Nazi's part in WWII, it would be a pretty pathetic re-enactment!

That's like saying anyone who portrayed the South in a re-enactment was pro-slavery; irrelevant and a ridiculous tactic, whoever uses it!

You're REALLY reaching, Mike--so was the Atlantic!





This clown doesn't dress up as a Nazi soldier, not as one of the Wehrmacht. He dresses up as a Waffen SS officer, the ARMED POLITICAL WING OF THE NAZI PARTY THAT WAS NEVER A PART OF THE GERMAN ARMY. It was at Hitler's insistence that the Waffen SS was kept separate from the army.

Quote:

The Waffen-SS (German pronunciation: [ˈvafən.ɛs.ɛs], Armed SS) was a multi-ethnic and multi-national military force of the Third Reich.[1] It constituted the armed wing of the Schutzstaffel ("Protective Squadron") or SS, an organ of the Nazi Party. The Waffen-SS saw action throughout World War II and grew from three regiments to over 38 divisions, and served alongside the Wehrmacht Heer regular army, but was never formally part of it. It was Adolf Hitler's will that the Waffen-SS never be integrated into the army, it was to remain the armed wing of the Party and to become an elite police force once the war was won.[2] During time of peace, it remained under the control of Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler's SS organization, through the SS Führungshauptamt (SS operational command office). Upon mobilization, however, the SS handed over its tactical control to the High Command of the Armed Forces (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht).[3]

At first membership was open to "Aryans" only in accordance with the racial policies of the Nazi state, but in 1940 Hitler authorized the formation of units composed largely or solely of foreign volunteers and conscripts, and by the end of the war ethnic non-Germans made up approximately 60% of the Waffen-SS.[4]

After the war at the Nuremberg Trials, the Waffen-SS was condemned as a criminal organization due to its essential connection to the Nazi Party and its involvement in war crimes. Waffen-SS veterans were denied many of the rights afforded to veterans who had served in the Heer (army), Luftwaffe (air force) or Kriegsmarine (navy). The exception made was for Waffen-SS conscripts sworn in after 1943, who were exempted due to their involuntary servitude. In the 1950s and 1960s, Waffen-SS veteran groups successfully fought numerous legal battles in West Germany to overturn the Nuremberg ruling and win pension rights for their members.



This guy likes to dress up as an SS officer - the guys who set up and ran the concentration camps.

*HE* says he does it because of the "history" it teaches, so any claims that he doesn't know the SS wasn't part of the regular army is pure bullshit. The SS were the elite guard of the Nazi party. These were the true believers.

Niki, you say this is nothing more than any other reenactors, and that's your right to believe that. But how many civil war reenactments have you gone to where people were clamoring to play the slave traders or the auctioneers?

This guy isn't playing just some German army grunt, and he damn well knows it.


The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.


Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Monday, October 11, 2010 4:09 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

The casting language did not come from the NRSC. An NRSC vendor told the talent agency, in an e-mail provided to POLITICO...



Funny, but somehow this is just getting completely ignored, and nonsense from an entirely different thread is being brought up instead.



"The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who is winning an argument with a liberal."


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Monday, October 11, 2010 4:31 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Bah, in any re-enactment, someone has to play the bad guys - I do a great confederate messenger, and can do some really good shot-off-my-horse scenes if the horse is kind enough to play along.

So I think it's a tempest in a teapot, really, I mean it's not like we don't KNOW the damn GOP kinda thinks the Nazis were the greatest thing since sliced bread, well, except for that whole (getting caught at) death camps thing, yeah...

But this guy is no more a jackboot than any of the rest of em, no more than a steampunk enthusiast who uses reich symbols on his creations for style value.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, October 12, 2010 1:28 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:


She's not talking to the tens of millions of Americans who are working 2 jobs so their children won't wear clothes to school that look like curtains, who are 2 weeks away from being on the street, who have to budget their food stamps (1 in 8 Americans are on food stamps). She is not talking to the 15-25% of Americans who are unemployed and underemployed. And she is certainly not talking to the 1.5 million homeless Americans.



Incorrect, that is who she is, that is why she took a very long time to pay back her student loans, which is also why Karl Rove does not think she is a good candidate - she has not been rich enough for her entire life to suit him. And that is why so many conservatives have railed against Rove, and his ilk of the GOP.

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Tuesday, October 12, 2010 1:40 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I will defend re-enactments to the death, and if nobdy played the Nazi's part in WWII, it would be a pretty pathetic re-enactment!


I can't think of any possible reason for a person to do that. Re-enact both sides of the Civil War, fine. Re-enact both sides of the Revolutionary War, fine. But to dress up as a Nazi soldier to re-enact WWII is beyond the pale of good taste. I wonder if they re-enact the activities of the SS Einsatzgruppen soldiers. They were the rear guard to the advancing SS Waffen troops. They would come in later, after the fighting, and round up every Jew, Gypsy, homosexual, etc. Typically there would be a festive opening pogrom, where just a few thousand would be beaten, whipped, and raped to death in the streets, while the whole town watched and/or participated in the fun. Then the other 10's of thousands would be led out of town, forced to jump naked into their own mass graves in a nearby ravine, and then get machine gunned til they were all dead. Babi Yar was the name of a ravine in the Ukraine. 38,000 people were shot to death there in 2 days. Row after row, machine-gunned, then had dirt poured on top, then the next row of victims right on top of the last. Three people actually crawled out and survived out of 38,000. As the Waffen SS swept across Ukraine, southern Russia, and the Balkans, if there wasn't a ravine or pit handy, then the Germans simply had them taken to Chelmo or Treblinka, or any of over 3000 death camps and had them gassed.

So why would a person want to dress as a Nazi and re-enact any of that? Sickest of the sick only.


I am chagrined that you don't understand history as well.
Words on paper are one thing, but historical re-enactments provide graphic sensory overload of the reality of the events, moreso even than movies.
Should Saving Private Ryan have had no Germans present in the film?
To actualy see the visual experience of that many in a mass grave, with only 3 surviving, is a graphic translation of how influential of an event it was, not just merely statistical trivia. Of course, care must be made to not accidentally suffocate the participants with excessive weight of the bodies piled on top, but the point can still be made.

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Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:24 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Jewelstaitefan:
Incorrect, that is who she is, that is why she took a very long time to pay back her student loans,...



If that is who she is, she wouldn't have any student loans to begin with.

I am talking about a segment of America that is so poor that no one in it has ever gone to college. I am talking about the janitors and mechanics and bus drivers--even firemen and cops--who are on food stamps or close to it. I am talking about a surprisingly large American lower class.

Christine O'Donnell may have been lower middle class. But blue collar lower class she is not, or has ever been, to my knowledge.

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Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:36 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Yeah, and she was really, REALLY trying to pay back those loans, too, wasn't she? For more than a decade, until the school had to break down and SUE HER to get their damn money back!


The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.


Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Tuesday, October 12, 2010 4:10 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I don't know why all the stuff about reenactment is over here, but I've addressed it at great length in the other thread so I'm not going to spend time on it again here. Suffice it to say that there are myriad groups around the world who choose a particular aspect of history to reenact, and yes, there are a good number who have chosen to portray the SS, be it panzer divisions or some other aspect of same. It's all reenactment, it does not necessarily reflect the political, philosophical, religious or any OTHER leanings of the person. Period. Whoever chooses to believe otherwise should stop for a minute and question why they feel that way about amateurs taking part in a hobby as opposed to actors who get paid for it.

I agree about Wagner, for the most part. I think it's a mischaracterization to lay Hitler's love of his music and his not-unusual-for-the-time attitudes on him and thereby make him some great evil.

JSF, I disagree with you about O'Donnell...she's made herself a perpetual candidate for several years now and used money donated to her CAMPAIGN for herself...and not to pay off any loans she might have incurred. There is nothing in her background that I can find which might indicate she represents the really struggling people of America, and I don't think she empathizes with them one whit. I think she's out for herself, and after her losses, this is the year she thinks she has the best chance.

On the other hand, thank you for your eloquent post on reenactment. I wish everyone could grasp it as you have and not make it a political or personal ploy. I can see how easy it would be if one wanted to, but I wish the hobby could be seen and respected for what it actually IS, because it means a lot to both those involved and those who watch, I'm sure. Live history is neat--even the little taste I've had of it has given me appreciation of things I didn't grasp before.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, October 12, 2010 6:09 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


I don't know why all the stuff about reenactment is over here...



Because I posted about it before Penguin started the other thread.


The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.


Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:17 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Sorry, I guess evil was just my opinion of him. He was an ass and wrote essays and such on how Jews were inferior and couldn't make real music and the like (I know I'm paraphrasing something fierce). I suppose it doesn't help that my music history professor really hated the guy. She pointed out areas of the world where his music is still banned and how Wagner lived to see the beginnings of what would eventually become the NAZI philosophy and seemed to endorse it.

You learn somethin' new everyday. I remembered what my professor told me (which colored my initial opinion) and enough to pass the test. I didn't do any additional research (hard to find that kind of time and motivation when juggling several performing ensembles and other classes) and didn't even know anti-semitism was en vogue and acceptable at Wagner's time. Thank you for the correction and I humbly bow before your superior knowledge in this area.

Still, my original point of appreciating aesthetic quality in spite of moral disagreements stands.

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Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:54 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Sorry, I guess evil was just my opinion of him. He was an ass and wrote essays and such on how Jews were inferior and couldn't make real music and the like (I know I'm paraphrasing something fierce). I suppose it doesn't help that my music history professor really hated the guy. She pointed out areas of the world where his music is still banned and how Wagner lived to see the beginnings of what would eventually become the NAZI philosophy and seemed to endorse it.

You learn somethin' new everyday. I remembered what my professor told me (which colored my initial opinion) and enough to pass the test. I didn't do any additional research (hard to find that kind of time and motivation when juggling several performing ensembles and other classes) and didn't even know anti-semitism was en vogue and acceptable at Wagner's time. Thank you for the correction and I humbly bow before your superior knowledge in this area.

Still, my original point of appreciating aesthetic quality in spite of moral disagreements stands.



I agree with your last sentiment as well.

To stir the pot: there is even a certain bombastic clarity present within nazi architecture that one can appreciate, though much of it already carries an anti-individual, anti-democratic quality that's hard to ignore. (They were certainly on-message at all times.)

Wagner is easy to villify and your professor certainly seems to have gone down that route whole-heartedly. Though to make it all about him personally, rather than appreciate a confluence of factors that were partially outside his influence, is short-sighted of her. And there is a certain hypocrisy in singling him out among the many other artists/musicians/writers in history, even recent history like Wagner, who have held deeply controversial views or were revered by bad people.

So really, we agree. :)



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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Good to hear, Trader. Let's put that up with those who say nobody's mind is ever changed by talking with others here. Not to say it's "changed" per se, but widened perhaps? And I do agree: he was an ass. But a talented one!

Yes, that probably will stir the pot, Agent. For those among us who live only in the black and white, your statements will be anathema, no doubt. Nonetheless, I agree...nothing is all bad or all good, and there were things about the Nazis which could be admired...few, but they're there. Militarily, they did some impressive stuff, for example.

But again, this was about why the Tea Party (all 11% of the population it encompasses) isn't reflective of most Americans...




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:19 AM

DREAMTROVE


It may not be me, it might be Rupert Murdoch, but it's closer to me than Dem or Rep. I think for a while now, Tory has been my political position, and that feeling has not been waning.

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