Iraq war docs by dreamtrove

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Iraq war docs

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 16:44
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Monday, October 25, 2010 8:47 AM

I can't believe no one has posted this. Did I just miss it? Or are you guys really that distracted with all the mutual hate and election era wedge issues? The left seems busy trying to convince us that libertarians are worse than Nazis while the right appears to have risen to the intellectual heights of "Nyah Nyah, you're going to loo-oose."

Meanwhile, real world events continue to transpire, this one is actually worth the time, The whole this was an hour and 15 min, but it got pulled in less than that. I got it off a mirror site from which it is now also gone, but here's a youtube, and hopefully, it will still be there when you guys see it.

In four parts, press conference with Julian Assange (and Friends!)

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Monday, October 25, 2010 10:42 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Cause it reeks of "limited hangout" ?

Cause there's a bunch of stuff obviously MISSING ?

Cause the more incriminating parts were either not handed over to Julian in the first place, or he for whatever reason chose not to release them ?

I smell a rat here, and I think Julian is holding back this stuff for reasons currently unknown, and I am damned suspicious of those reasons.

As to why I would know that stuff is missing and generally what, if you ain't figured out why by now you ain't ever gonna.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, October 25, 2010 4:28 PM

DREAMTROVE

Frem,

Of course all of this occurred to me when I watched it, and I've had 24 hours to gnaw on it.

First, it was obvious to me what was missing, I don't need to be an intelligence expert to figure it out. As several people have commented, the internet is a better intelligence apparatus than the CIA any day of the week. Also, muslims post videos and reports of these attacks online all the time.

As for why, that's pretty simple too. At least, it seems to me to be:

These are conservative people, very conservative. Here's why: They don't want the label "Conspiracy theorist" and they don't want anything they say to be a fact whose veracity or source is in any kind of doubt at all. They want to spell out what they *know* to be only a fraction of the damage, but they want it to be pure indisputable fact.

This gets the reaction they want: I makes the US et al attack *them* rather than their material. In doing so, TPTB tip their hand, they are basically admitting that they know they can't dispute what Julian has to say, they just want them gone.

Now, a second towards limited hangout: I gnawed on this possibility, and then discarded it. The classic limited hangout is like Abu Ghraib. It's the admitted abuse that covers for the much worse denied abuse.

Am I right?

Okay, what happens in a typical limited hangout like that? What's the press reaction? What's the govt reaction?

It's everywhere. Posted on every wall, board, radio, video and text source, you cannot avoid it even if you bury yourself in a hole in the ground. They want you to know.

Another limited hangout: The Aug 6th PDB.

Am I on target here on the pattern?

So what happens with this stuff? It vaporizes. It's vapornews. News on a string. It gets taken down from C-SPAN before I'm even done watching the video, and then I get a mirror site from C&L, and then it's taken down from C&L before I'm done watching. I hear crickets.

Okay, so they're not real keen on us knowing this, because the story told here is not the bad apple story, it's the systematic abuse story, its that this is not a war, it's serial murder, perhaps genocide against an ethnic group.

But you have a valid point about Julian Assanges motives, and he does have another one, which I think is pretty solid:

He wants us to play ball. He's in a position of power, because he knows information technology better than our govt. He releases *undamaging* information for two reasons:

1. He can dodge the accusation that he is making us "unsafe"

2. He can always threaten to release more.

If I'm the guy with the info, and I have a system that you can't access, and I can say "hey, Frem is up to this, and I want him to stop" but I don't say something else I know about you, that you know I know about you, that you know I'm not posting, then you're in a situation, am I right?

If you don't stop, there's a chance I would release that additional damaging information. Yes, maybe the first stuff I released makes your current mission look bad, but now you have a reason to back off from that mission. You, yourself, don't yet look bad, nothing damming has been posted about you, just your current mission.

So, you have two choices: Abandon the mission, or attack my ability to post.

Continuing this analogy, if this were about you and me on FFF RWED, you could write to Haken and ask him to block me from posting the data that I had. This would be the squashing of free speech.

Now why would anyone good want that as a goal?

Follow this through:

1. WTO protests. What are these guys trying to do? Stop globalism? Don't be absurd, they know they can't do that. They want the globalist elite to behave like Nazis. They want globalism to defeat itself. At that, they are doing quite well.

When Obama comes out and as much as says that he thinks that first amendment needs to go, that looks bad. He's turning the US into a fascist dictatorship. Since it already is a very state, and already is a de facto dictatorship (not of Obama, don't be absurd, he's a figurehead, we both know who's in power here.) Why let the US get away with selling itself as a beacon of freedom?

2. Assange knows that TPTB have lost control over the flow of information. He knows this because he beats them at it every single day. And he knows he's not alone. The US can trample on the First, but they can never stop the signal. He knows that. And trying is only going to make the US look like the evil empire it is.

3. You don't need to guess at his motives, he tells you his motives, and I see no reason to doubt them: He wants to end war. He wants to end it through transparency on a level where everything is recorded in every detail and stored somewhere where it can never be destroyed so that someone can always say "We know what you did."

And this should be very familiar territory to you: It's exactly what you were doing to these bounty-hunter style rehab centers.

You said it yourself: Guns don't stop these people, cameras do.

See, war is built on lies. Not just the lies that come before the storm, and the ones that cover up what's going on during it, but the ones which come after, that rewrite history, and use that fiction as a pretext for future action.

Imagine how America would change if every time someone said "The Axis had concentration camps that killed millions" they had the videos to prove it. Nothing would change right? That's the history we know.

Now imagine if every time someone said that, someone said "But the Allied had concentration camps that killed millions more." And then had the videos to prove it. That might give people pause.

If people knew what *we* did in WWII, and not just what the Germans and Japanese did, they might not have been so eager to sign up for our next war, and the one after that...

Now picture a world in which someone said "We know you personally killed a shopkeeper in Kabul. Then you killed his teenage daughter because she was a witness. And we know your name, and your face, and so does everyone else." Not only would recruit for wars plummet, but people *in* wars would start watching themselves much more carefully.

Now, yeah, sure, I know what the first reaction of the US military will be to this approach, in fact, I'm stunned they haven't done it already: Ban the recording of war.

But that's just not going to work. The next time, it won't be US soldiers recording the killings, it will be the civilians being attacked, and even after the last civilian witness is killed, the security camera's on the wall of that shop are already recording it and assuming that you can catch every camera, and destroy them all, it still doesn't help, because as soon as anything is captured, it's sent to the internet, where it mirrored and ghosted and disappeared into the vast sea of data, and its in the hands of everyone on Earth who wants to see you fail. This isn't the distant future... it's already happening.

So yes, Julian Assange is falling short of frying the US commanders and leaders for their current and recent sins, because he really doesn't care about retribution. He has much bigger fish to fry.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2010 10:51 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Not good enough.

I don't think like other people, and I sure as hell don't play by queensbury rules - and how many times has it bitten us on the ass, having mercy, letting it slide, forgiving, forgetting...

Hell no, metaphorically, when I got em down, I put the fucking boot in, then pin em with a knee and slit their goddamn throat, there's NO excuse to soft-shoe an important fight, and by releasing bit by bit to a populace already numbed by a society going slowly rabid, all Julian is doing is slowly boiling the frogs.

Drop it ALL, all at once, every ounce, send the frogs bouncing around the kitchen with scorched asses, croaking their heads off, instead of reducing this to mere headline of the week.

When you got a bad opponent on the ropes, you FINISH THE JOB - cause if you don't, you WILL regret it.

Just imagine if we had not let the Nixon administration and all these little pre Neo-Con cronies get away the first fucking time, how much death and trauma and bloodshed could have been avoided, how many of our freedoms would not be so imperiled, if not existing only in concept ?

And if that sounds harsh, so be it - sometimes you NEED a bloody handed butcher to do what *must* be done, without justifications, without excuses, without phonyass moralisations, but to pay evil unto evil, because nothing less will serve.

Sometimes being nice, kind or decent, is a VICE, not a Virtue - and when dealing with sociopaths in a conflict that so profoundly affects the very heart of our nation...

That's one of those times.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2010 10:55 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

In my case, because I've heard it before, and it's nothing either new or unexpected to me, I guess. It was mentioned briefly in two other threads--both claiming "hey, hey, look: there WERE WMDs", which the Wikileaks documents pretty much debunked while admitting there were a few bits and pieces here and there.

It's just that most of us here with brains already know about the shit Wikileaks has leaked, or were pretty much sure it was going on, we just didn't hear about it. That's my reason, anyway.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, October 26, 2010 12:36 PM

DREAMTROVE

Frem,

I think a lot more like Julian, life long hacker, and far from the front lines. I would have come to similar conclusions to the ones he came to, so I sort of understand where he's coming from and how he thinks, but that doesn't mean we're right and you're not. You have some very valid point.

IMHO, Nixon and the neocons represented opposite sides of a battle, but that's a technicality. Neocons should have been nipped in the bud.

Notice that all these guys go very light on the casualty figures, relative to Pirate News? John is probably closer to the actual number, but which one has more credibility, and hence, more influence.

My suspicion is that Julian will *not* get through to TPTB, but that he *will* get through to the next generation of data pirates, and that may be more valuable.

Again, I'm not sure who is right on this one, but I'm fairly sure that stopping future abuses is more important than justice. OTOH, that's a religious point of view. Taoism preaches that the search for justice is a trap in a vicious cycle of retribution.

It's something to gnaw on. If you have any more specific ideas on how you could use data to stop these cretins in their tracks, I'd be interested. If you don't want to post it to the board, you have my email.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2010 3:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

I'm kinda with Niki on this one - it's nothing we didn't already know, basically. Just more CONFIRMATION of it.

BushCo. lied, people died, they continued to lie, more died, they lied about how many died, and who, and how, and more died, etc. Lather, rinse, repeat.

The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2010 5:05 PM

DREAMTROVE

I disagree. It's categorically different information: The former is an accusation, destined to be debated in history books. The latter is court admissible evidence over 115,000 non-combat related cases of murder. That shows not only a systematic abuse, but indicates the possible future in which you would not be able to get away with it.

In Julian's future, anyone would have to think twice before signing up for a war, and those who did would have to think long and hard about how they acted in it.

Which reminds me of something I meant to say to Frem:

Notice how slowly and carefully Julian is picking his words. He clearly doesn't want to say anything that could be misconstrued or taken out of context. The press is clearly his enemy here, even as he tries to persuade them, and he is determined not to give them the soundbyte they're looking for.

Mike,

Anyway, to continue, the situation is that he knows who the man who shot the girl in the yellow dress is, and he knows who she was, but to use it in a court of law, that information needs to not be stated until there is a charge, trial, and a conviction.

One thing I definitely expect to happen as a result of this hearing is that the particular soldier will in fact be tried.

And, as I said to Frem, I'll say again: He's not trying to convict America here, the world has already done that. He's trying to change the nature of war.

I thought it was brilliant.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2010 5:33 PM

KWICKO

Y'know, in that mission I wish him lotsa luck. But I'm skeptical. I've seen the investigation into Abu Ghraib; I've heard Bush's own generals say that he committed what amount to war crimes, with full knowledge of what he was ordering when he ordered it; I've heard his own Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff say that the decision to invade was predicated on "a series of lies".

And I've heard the Obama Administration as well as the Bush Administration say that not only are these war crimes not war crimes, they're not crimes at all, and even if they were, you could never punish any government official or employee for them. And they've codified this kind of shit into law.

So I'm skeptical that Julian Assange will have much of an impact, although I wish he would. I find it much more likely that he'll find himself on one of Obama's secret hit lists; American citizens are finding themselves targeted for assassination, so it's by no means a stretch to imagine a Predator drone carrying a rack full of Hellfire missiles with Julian's name all over them, and salutations like "WikiLeak THIS!"

The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Wednesday, October 27, 2010 2:40 AM

DREAMTROVE

I think that you're probably right about the secret hit list, but I think that even if it won't force govts. to hold their own accountable, it will make individual would be jackboots think twice. It's as Frem said, cameras are the new guns.

Also, the girl in the yellow dress story is the stuff that real anti-war movements are made of. The smart thing to do of that would be to try to get the video, and then a thousand others like it, and every time the sensationalism waned, hitting them with a bigger one.

We heard the stories from vietnam. What if we'd scene the videos of US soldiers acting like the Nazi SS. That's what these allocations really are. Everything that Spielberg has on Germany, that's definitely us right now. The scene where Goertz shoots the boy? This scene of the soliders giving the girl candy and then shooting her... it's possibly even sicker.

We are the new Nazis. And if we don't hold ourselves accountable, the rest of the world will. Meanwhile, where do you get those Canadian luggage patches ;)

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Wednesday, October 27, 2010 3:24 PM

FREMDFIRMA

http://www.amazon.com/Fakin-Eh-How-Pretend-Canadian/dp/0973911638

Of course, us Michiganders have kind of a head start, eh ?

-F

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Wednesday, October 27, 2010 3:33 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I think that you're probably right about the secret hit list, but I think that even if it won't force govts. to hold their own accountable, it will make individual would be jackboots think twice. It's as Frem said, cameras are the new guns.

Also, the girl in the yellow dress story is the stuff that real anti-war movements are made of. The smart thing to do of that would be to try to get the video, and then a thousand others like it, and every time the sensationalism waned, hitting them with a bigger one.

We heard the stories from vietnam. What if we'd scene the videos of US soldiers acting like the Nazi SS. That's what these allocations really are. Everything that Spielberg has on Germany, that's definitely us right now. The scene where Goertz shoots the boy? This scene of the soliders giving the girl candy and then shooting her... it's possibly even sicker.

We are the new Nazis. And if we don't hold ourselves accountable, the rest of the world will. Meanwhile, where do you get those Canadian luggage patches ;)

Kinda wondering when the news is going to break of the U.S. military's very own "Joy Division"...

The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 27, 2010 4:44 PM

DREAMTROVE

Frem,

Thanks for the tip. Of course, upstate, we already have the accent, except for those who got the redneck accent.

Mike,

It will be censored because to name our crime, we'd have to show that the girls were underage. Afterall, most of our "enemy combatants" seem to be around 15.

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