Dolphins and mirrors by Niki2

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Dolphins and mirrors

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, November 29, 2010 12:32
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Saturday, November 27, 2010 8:21 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

What a kick:

Quote:
Scientists say they're just beginning to understand the intricate thinking of dolphins. An experiment using mirrors in a dolphin tank finds the mammals acting quite human when looking at their own reflection.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Saturday, November 27, 2010 12:28 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I wonder how they make determinations of intelligence in Animals. I often hear things like, "Animal X is as smart as humans" or whatnot, but it's never entirely clear to me how this is determined.

And then... which humans? Is there an actual IQ test that can be given to animals, to see how they rate? How could such a thing be devised?

I've seen some pretty smart animals, but I've never seen any way to firmly determine just how smart they are. I'm not even sure any kind of test could be constructed that reliably weighs them against humans, since their experiences are so very different from our own.

Just imagine - IQ tests have been criticized in the past for being culturally dependent. How much more so is any test devised by humans, but taken by animals?

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Sunday, November 28, 2010 6:24 AM

KANEMAN

Dolphins do not act like humans. Period.

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Sunday, November 28, 2010 7:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

True, Anthony, which is why I take those things with a grain of salt. I find it interesting to see other species which show intelligence, but gauge that intelligence? I don't think it's reall possible in any meaningful way, for just the reasons you cited.

I do believe dolphins are damned bright, but their entire world is so different from ours, how could we ever assign any level to them?

I know there are tests they do, and some species (and some specific animals) show higher "functioning" intelligence than others. I had a rehab raven for 14 years, and damn, she was bright--brighter than I would have thought. So I wasn't surprised when studies came out showing the higher intelligence of ravens. But the fact remains; I believe we can recognize "smarts" when we see them, but we can't measure them by any reliable standards.

I just thought it was cool to watch them responding just like kids would to a mirror.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, November 28, 2010 7:46 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Speaking of smart birds....

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Sunday, November 28, 2010 8:31 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yup, that was one of the tests they used on ravens and crows. You'd be amazed at the things they can do!

'Bo ("Bodega", so named because sometimes she had a personality out of "The Birds") blew our minds regularly. She hated Curt, but he was fascinated by HER...he'd tease her with his keys; she alwys got them, and he had to put on a helmet to go get them back!

One time we're all sitting around the living room; 'Bo flies over to Curt, lands on his chest, grabs his pack of cigs from his breast pocket, hurls it. Then she grabbed his glasses by the nose bridge and hurls THEM, and flies away. ALl this in about one second; way too fast for anyone, including Curt, to react!

I loved that bird, and yes, they ARE just that smart. Some scientists say they're the smartest bird in the world, and smarter than cats or dogs. I dunno, I would think parrots rank right up there, but who knows?

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/ravens/video-raven-intelligenc
e/1549/

Quote:
Scientists have discovered an unexpected candidate for the title of the world's second smartest creature: the raven

'These birds use logic to solve problems and some of their abilities even surpass those of the great apes'

Other experiments by biologists have shown that ravens often let other animals do work for them. In the wild, they have been known to make calls that bring wolves and foxes to dead animals so that these large carnivores can break the carcass apart, making meat accessible to the birds. Another great example of the influence of symbiosis in the natural world.

'It [The Raven] is up there with the great apes and dolphins,'

Full article at http://www.bioteams.com/2007/04/29/ravens_demonstrate_logic.html

This is an oldie but a goodie:

They're also great mimics; there was one at Marin Wildlife that always had people looking around. There was a groundskeeper who used to walk around muttering to himself, and one of the resident ravens learned to immitate him perfectly.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, November 28, 2010 8:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oh, shit, I keep finding more:

There are so many things in this one that are JUST like 'Bo...the thing with his finger in its mouth; that's feeding behavior, you've seen it with many young birds and can tell that's it by the fluttering of the wings.

I'll stop now, promise.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, November 28, 2010 10:08 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

So, the term 'bird brain ' isn't actually all that much an insult after all?

I laugh at folks who claim dinosaurs were too 'stupid' to survive, and that anything slow, dumb and out dated is referred to as 'Jurassic' or some such nonsense.

Dinos ruled the planet for over 160 million years. Humans have only been civilized for what...10,000 years ? Maybe 20,000, tops ?

Please..... we're pretty smart, but we're still the new kids on the block. Very new.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, November 28, 2010 1:48 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Once we can read animals minds we'll find out how intelligent they all are.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, November 28, 2010 3:13 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
So, the term 'bird brain ' isn't actually all that much an insult after all?

I dunno. I've never seen birds do calculus.

I think we are just so surprised that creatures are intelligent at all, we cheer rather mediocre achievements like making hooks out of wire.

Still, they've never destroyed their own planet, so maybe they ARE smarter than us.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Monday, November 29, 2010 9:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yes, I always smile inwardly when I hear "bird brained". On the other hand, all birds, smart or otherwise, are "rasty" in my opinion, even parakeets and parrots. Doesn't change their intelligence.

Yeah, we have a tendency to rate everything on our own scale, and while I don't think dinos were particularly "smart", given they had all the OTHER attribute necessary to be the top of the food chain, we seem to measure thing at least partially on the size of their brains, and they had verrrry teeeny ones.

Raptors have among the proportionately largest brains of all critters--ravens especially--but I don't think that's especially what makes them "smart". The comparison as I see it is the ability to solve problems which enhance their ability to survive, and Ravens have that in spades.

Raptors and crows (who are "corvids") are nonetheless considered raptors, despite being omnivores rather than carnivors, tho' they will take prey. 'Bo used to adore catching the local rats...I'd get up the next day to find her hopping all over her aviary with a tail in her mouth, showing off her "prowess". Given she'd hide any food she didn't consume on the spot, it wasn't surprising she attracted rats!

One of the videos I found was funny, and showed quite clearly why one of our founding fathers wanted the turkey to be our national bird rather than the eagle. Eagles are relatively stupid, and prefer to scrounge food rather than hunt. It showed an eagle standing over a kill, and a raven came up from behind and pulled his tail feathers. This went on for a while, with the eagle getting more and more pissed. See, if he left his prey to go after the raven, he'd leave it unprotected. Eventually he got pissed off enough to chase the raven, who could easily outfly him, and who swooped back in and got the meal. Dumb eagle! But funny to watch him be outsmarted.

Of course, turkeys aren't necessarily the smartest kids on the block, either...and the eagle is much more commanding to look at!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, November 29, 2010 9:39 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
So, the term 'bird brain ' isn't actually all that much an insult after all?
I dunno. I've never seen birds do calculus.

I think we are just so surprised that creatures are intelligent at all, we cheer rather mediocre achievements like making hooks out of wire.

Still, they've never destroyed their own planet, so maybe they ARE smarter than us.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

They have destroyed many clean windshields and clean shoulders....I'm just sayin

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Monday, November 29, 2010 10:51 AM

FREMDFIRMA

They're aiming for you Kane, on purpose.

Corvids are LIKE that, they used to harrass one of my ex's for throwing stuff at em cause they also hold grudges.

I get along with em just fine though.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, November 29, 2010 12:32 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

You're damned right, Frem, they DO remember and they DO hold grudges. What I said about 'Bo and Curt? He went back to Idaho (where he and Jim came from) for several years...when he came back, he walked in the front door, and 'Bo went NUTS...if the dining room window had been open to her aviary, she'd'a gone right after him. She NEVER forgot!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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