Compromising asshole by Niki2

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Compromising asshole

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 8, 2010 12:59
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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 9:52 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yeah, "him" of course. Obama said nothing about the compromise being morally wrong, he just said we needed the tax cuts, we needed to compromise to get unemployment benefits passed, and that "Without the deal, middle-income families would become “collateral damage for political warfare here in Washington", insinuating the Dems were against tax cuts for the rich because it was just "political warfare".

He said "Sympathetic as I am to those who prefer a fight over compromise, as much as the political wisdom may dictate fighting over solving problems, it would be the wrong thing to do".

That is just SUCH bullshit it makes me want to spit. Democrats want the tax cuts for the rich to expire because they are morally wrong, not just to play political games; to continue the Bush tax cuts only makes the rich richer. It's also not good fiscal policy; they're not paid for and will increase the debt (what happened to the "fiscally responsible Republicans"? Yeah, I know). They're not stimulative; tax cuts are among the worst forms of stimulant, unemployment benefits THE single best.

The US will have to borrow at least $420 billion MORE from China, plus another $1.5 trillion from other countries (including MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES) to pay for potentially the next ten years of the Bush tax cuts. His deal for a two-year extension will cost about $95 billion. Unemployment extension (only 13 months, by the way), other things like a 2% decrease in payroll taxes (for a year), the earned income tax, child tax, accelerated depreciation (things which WILL stimulate the economy and help the unemployment numbers) will cost about $250 billion. It will cost another $450 billion cost in lost revenue.

The Democratic plan (which Republicans voted down) would have given those making $50,000-75,000 a savings of $1,100 per year, and those making more than a milion dollars would get $6,300. The Republican plan would give those making more than $1,000,000 a year a tax cut of $104,000 A YEAR! The Republicans are still "negotiating" whether to PAY FOR the unemployment extension, so that's not even agreed to.

We're already in the hole $8,83 BILLLION just to China, more than double just three years ago. We NOW pay China $50 billion in interest EVERY YEAR! If foreign countries buy US debt for the next 10 years in the same proportion they do now, we'll owe Russa another $60 billion, China another $420 billion, plus interest. In September, the UK held $459 billion in US treasuries. Fourth largest holder is "oil exporters" (we know who THEY are, but they won't reveal how much individual countries hold) at $230.5 billion, and Japan at $565 billion.

So to characterize it as mere political warfare is disingenuous in the least, downright dishonest in truth. Truth is, he's letting the right hold START, unemployment benefits and more as hostage to get what they want. The Republicans should have been made to vote (again) AGAINST tax cuts for all but the richest, they should have bene forced to ACTUALLY filibuster--you know, the way the filibuster is supposed to work--unemployment extensions, so the American people can see who they ACTUALLY work for; they should have been forced to vote down START and expose themselves as the warmongers they are.

Instead, he caves. You KNOW those cuts will be extended even further in an election season, just what the Republicans want. And we'll get a huge increase in the debt because they're not paid for, while the Republicans will continue to fight against any other form of stimulus which would actually STIMULATE the economy.

I hope the Dems stand up to him, dammit, and stop this from happening. MAKE the Repubs show their true colors, don't just kiss their asses and turn their backs on the rest of us!

As usually, he gave away the store to get nothing in return. And worded it to make the Dems seem like their stance is just political warfare. The fucking LEAST he could have done was to be honest about it...or "more" honest, if you will. Mutherfucking capitulating sellout!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 9:55 AM

STORYMARK

I'm starting to like the idea of a Primary challenger.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 10:01 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
"Without the deal, middle-income families would become “collateral damage for political warfare here in Washington", insinuating the Dems were against tax cuts for the rich because it was just "political warfare".

No, I didn't read it that way.

I think he means to say, if he digs his heels in and refuse to compromise on something he believes is morally wrong, that there will be warfare. He may win that war, but the price to pay in that war is the blood of the unemployed who can't feed their families.

I'm not saying he's not a compromising asshole. But he really was in a hard position this time.

I don't blame him on this one. I blame the people who made him choose, the ones who held unemployed Americans hostage to get this demand met.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 10:02 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Wait a sec...

You are arguing your boy isn't extreme left enough?

No. You lie!

lol

Well, maybe with the rest of the country about to revolt... he started to get it thru his thick, stupid, progressive skull...

"Jeebus... do I want end up hung on the lawn of the White House? I mean, I followed those rich, national socialistic, progressives for about as far as I can.. but the people are set to murder me. The people have spoken, and they have no wish to be slaves..."

Goodness, Niki.

You are so out of step with the people of America.

We don't want to be socialists, slaves, progressives, or under the bootheel of any of your type.

Even your Messiah is starting to get that.

But not you, right?

Doesn't matter how old you get, you still think your folks can control and run the people.

But age is starting to bite... and the desperation is showing.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 10:19 AM

JONGSSTRAW

The Lame (Dead) Duck House Democrats decided last week to go out on another of their suicidal votes. It's encouraging to now see several Senate Dems filibustering with the Republicans, as they've effectively put Obama in a box.
Libs best get used to this, it's gonna get much worse next year.

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 10:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Story, me too, but I know it won't happen. And DT, yes, you point is valid...I give him a BIT of slack for that, and he did clear up a whole raft of things by giving in to them (hopefully, if they don't get him to compromise MORE away!). It's not fair to ask people to suffer, admittedly, I just can't get past what it's going to COST us all, and the way he phrased it. He made it a political game, not a moral argument.

Poor Wulf; you are without a doubt the single MOST self-deluded person here. As I've said over and over, he's not my "boy", nor a "Messiah"...have you never leared to read? Or is it that you see me as a liberal, ergo all the silly things you call liberals must be true of me, too. Get a grip, "boy".

Uh, the rest of the country is "about to revolt"? I thought you already had your revolution, at least you crowed to have, and that now that you righties had "power" you were going to fix everything?

I say again; can you not READ? I just posted facts and figures that show the American people are AGAINST tax cuts being kept for the rich, yet you can still say "You are so out of step with the people of America".

I'm beginning to have serious questions about your reading ability, aside from the already-answered questions about your reasoning ability. It is only YOU who wants to spout off the buzz words "slaves" and "bootheels"...you are unable to see how under the bootheels we HAVE BEEN for eight years of those who were quite successful in eroding our civil rights, torturing, hugely widening the gap between rich and poor, bankrupting our country and putting us in the worst recession since the depression?

How do you back up you last statement, given the issue at hand and the facts I posted about it??

You can't be serious. Nobody is that stupid; you say these things to get a rise out of people, that's the only conceivable excuse. Okay, you got a rise, go back to your fantasy videos. I'm beginning to realize you're so far out in the stratosphere that even responding to you is just a waste of time. Gotta think about whether I even want to read your posts anymore or bother responding to them. I once thought you were just uneducated and there was hope for you; I think so less and less as time goes on. There's no discussing with the deliberately blind, or with those who just want to say exhorbidantly ridiculous things to trigger others.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 10:58 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Aint she cute folks.. can we give her a hand?

By all means, Niki, keep preaching that tired old song.

"Be a slave to the government so long as we run it... and life will be sweet..oooooOHHHHH"

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 11:00 AM

STORYMARK

Sorry Nik, but Wulfie can't understand anything longer than what fits on a bumper sticker. You're asking far, far too much of the poor boy in this case.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 11:29 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
And DT, yes, you point is valid...I give him a BIT of slack for that, and he did clear up a whole raft of things by giving in to them (hopefully, if they don't get him to compromise MORE away!). It's not fair to ask people to suffer, admittedly, I just can't get past what it's going to COST us all, and the way he phrased it.

Did you just confuse me with DT?

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 11:46 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"I'm not saying he's not a compromising asshole. But he really was in a hard position this time.

I don't blame him on this one. I blame the people who made him choose, the ones who held unemployed Americans hostage to get this demand met."

Hello,

The Presidency is a job title that might as well be: Making impossible decisions at impossible times from impossible positions.

I can't blame anyone for what the President chooses to do but the President. The time of forgiving him for being handed a hot potato is over. We're moving past Adapt or Die and into the zone of Abject Failure.

In my opinion, Obama has failed to fulfill the promise he held up to the American People. Those who voted For and Against him can stand united with mouths twisted in revulsion at the bitter repugnance of his shortcomings, even if they don't agree on what those shortcomings are.

He is a man who has failed everyone, repeatedly, and promises to fail us again.

To be succinct, I'd rather he strive mightily and fail, rather than 'succeed' at middling victories that stand as such in name only- while delivering a reality that is no better than the hell we knew.

He has simply re-branded the fire. None of it is put out. He has promised to bat at the flames weakly and meekly, but he is only fanning them and keeping them hot.

Rather than reverse our course, he has stalled the car momentarily until another driver can resume its transit off the precipice. Meanwhile, the windows are cleaned, oil changed, and gas tank filled to make that final plummet as easy as possible for the next chauffeur.

Choosing the Lesser Evil has been a Monumental Disappointment to me in this Presidential cycle.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 1:08 PM

WHOZIT

To all you libs, I will now laugh at your pain.......AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

SEND ME YOUR TEARS SO I MAY DRINK THEM!!!

AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 1:09 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

It's morally wrong to hike taxes while spending more and more.

Obama is a light weight and a pretender.

And he's a punk, too.

That's been well established.

But to call the GOP terrorists ?

F- HIM!

The American people were held hostage, in 2008, by the hyper extreme far Left wing media.

VOTE FOR OBAMA OR Y'ALL ARE ALL RACISTS !!!

Well, freedom is coming. Don't worry. !

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 1:19 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
To be succinct, I'd rather he strive mightily and fail, rather than 'succeed' at middling victories...

Well, I agree.

But people who strive mightily and fail don't get to the office of the Presidency. They usually have already striven mightily and...failed. Presidents are by selection, compromisers and sell-outs. I think we all hoped, unrealistically, that he wouldn't be, given that he promised us so many uncompromising dreams--and therein lies the bitterness of our disappointment.

I still think the anger on this particular issue is misdirected. The hostage takers put themselves in a win-win position. They were going to sabotage his presidency either way.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 1:54 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"They were going to sabotage his presidency either way."

Hello,

This is the very reason to revile him for not swinging at the fences. Heck, before he ever became President, he did something that should have broadcast his intentions to me. He decided to forgive illegal wiretapping (for the good of America!) But despite this early sign that he was not the droid we were looking for, the shuddering revulsion evoked by his predecessor made me willfully blind. (Along with the rest of the Nation.)

Even his enemies were utterly mistaken about him. He is the ideal harmless foe. Someone they can claim to have defeated when he really presented no tangible opposition to begin with.

"To all you libs, I will now laugh at your pain"

And this is another problem. Rather than view this Presidency as a travesty, some people choose to see it as a triumph. People who love Winning more than they love America worry me. Except... I don't feel that anyone is winning. Not really. We are simply trading one flavor of Fail for another.

There were benefits that even the Right should have looked forward to in a Democratic president. The Freedom-destroying Patriot Act could have been utterly dismantled. Civil Liberties could have been enhanced and reinforced. This would have been a boon to Freedom that all people of all parties could have (and should have) been enjoying. But... No. Nothing. We have a President without a single admirable principle he will hold to. For the Good of America, he is willing to bravely not fight for the Good of its citizenry.

"Well, freedom is coming. Don't worry. !"

Where? Where is Freedom coming from? Surely not from the Party that shredded freedom so thoroughly to begin with?

The worst part of the Obama debacle is that no one else who might win the Presidency is offering anything better. The only positive thing one might look for from a Republican turn at the wheel is the repeal of the pointless Health Insurance legislation. But I'm afraid they will even manage to hurt us there, perhaps by repealing only pieces of it while leaving the worst parts intact. There is absolutely nothing hopeful or positive being offered from any quarter.

These are my strong feelings on the matter. You all may have a different view, and I respect that even when I don't agree.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 2:00 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:

They were going to sabotage his presidency either way.

If they could, they'd be considered GREAT Americans.

But in all honesty, Obama is doing this, all by himself. His incompetence , his arrogance, will be his great undoing.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 2:11 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Niki, Anthony - agree completely. Thx for posting those numbers Niki - I mean, does anyone else read this stuff? Is it all monopoly money?
And, sorry, where are the reps now who earlier were screaming about how The deficit and bailouts were going to ruin the country? How many of your kids speak Chinese?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 2:24 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
This is the very reason to revile him for not swinging at the fences.

If you're not going to win, then at least STAND for something, for goodness sake? As a leader?

I can sympathize with that. Yeah, he should have fought harder for everything. Give us something to believe in. Like Julian.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 2:33 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I mean, does anyone else read this stuff? Is it all monopoly money?

I read it. If we cut our 2 wars, we can make up for the money we lost. I don't see this loss of revenue as a national disaster. I think maintaining expenses we can't afford, that is the national disaster. It's a different take on the same situation.

It's like a gambling addict who lives of his rental properties. He gets stiffed on a lot of rent. Now that isn't right, and he's crying about it. How will he pay the loan sharks now? The answer is very simple. He needs to stop gambling.

Like any addiction, it is painful to hit bottom, but this country needs to confront its addiction to war and go into recovery.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 3:05 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

The American people were held hostage, in 2008, by the hyper extreme far Left wing media.

VOTE FOR OBAMA OR Y'ALL ARE ALL RACISTS !!!

BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Thanks for the laugh.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 4:48 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

It's morally wrong to hike taxes while spending more and more.

Obama is a light weight and a pretender.

And he's a punk, too.

That's been well established.

But to call the GOP terrorists ?

F- HIM!

The American people were held hostage, in 2008, by the hyper extreme far Left wing media.

VOTE FOR OBAMA OR Y'ALL ARE ALL RACISTS !!!

Well, freedom is coming. Don't worry. !

So you're the new Chinese Emissary? I could actually see that, you selling your knowledge of Firefly Chinese to get a cush job with our new owners.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 7:09 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Piz ?

What in the 'verse are you even yapping about ?

Niki called our President an a-hole.

On this, I agree w/ her.

She's wrong, of course, on the tax cuts for the producers being morally wrong, or some such nonsense. They're exceedingly fair.

They should be lower, even still, but we'll settle for this. For now.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 9:03 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Goodness, Niki. You are so out of step with the people of America. We don't want to be socialists, slaves, progressives, or under the bootheel of any of your type. Even your Messiah is starting to get that.

No, Wulfie dear, YOU are out of step.

Just as the public option was popular (polling anywhere from 55%-70% in favor) so is the idea fo taxing the rich.

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 10:49 PM

CUDA77

Like woman, I am a mystery.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Goodness, Niki. You are so out of step with the people of America. We don't want to be socialists, slaves, progressives, or under the bootheel of any of your type. Even your Messiah is starting to get that.
No, Wulfie dear, YOU are out of step.

Just as the public option was popular (polling anywhere from 55%-70% in favor) so is the idea fo taxing the rich.

Hell, we know he's out of step because he thinks Obama is a far-left socialist. Do we really need any more proof that Wulf clearly has no idea what politics in this country are really like? Because that's all the proof I need right there.

Oh, and Wulf, just for you.

And in case you're too drunk or just have your fingers wedged so far in your ears that your brain isn't getting enough oxygen, the word of the day is "socialist."

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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 1:42 AM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:

But despite this early sign that he was not the droid we were looking for, the shuddering revulsion evoked by his predecessor made me willfully blind. (Along with the rest of the Nation.)

Yes. Of course he said it so many words "My administration will represent no real policy change over that of George W. Bush." I had it as my signature for a while, including the citation, mid-2008, in the interview with Lara Logan, where she really cornered him on the issue, in absolute disgust.

Also this

Quote:
We are simply trading one flavor of Fail for another.

I was surprised that democrats became upset over their candidate not raising taxes, at first it seemed illogical to me, but eventually I got it, so let me try to analyze:

Torture prisons, assassinations, handouts to the old boys, Halliburton, Goldman Sachs, etc. No bid contracts, domestic spying, two wars, pointless and endless like the mounting debt, environmental catastrophe, lack of response, patriot act, homeland security...

Not only did these things not go away, they've gotten worse.

My own analysis of this admin. at the 18 month mark as I said I would wait to call it, giving him the benefit of the doubt, was that when I did call it, it was "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" and if anything Obama was "Bush +1" in the way that Bush was "Clinton +1" It's just the creeping dread.

So, why the furor over taxes? I get the actual arguments, but I think there's something else going on, because lefties I know off forum were pretty hyper on this issue, and my reaction was "Why do you want some wealthy group to suffer? Or the military budget to increse? It's like 70-90 billion a year, right, couldn't the defense budget just be reduced by that much instead, if they want these tax cut?" Also, why so much more anger on this then on the idea that he's willing to assassinate American bloggers?

But it wasn't about that.

It was validation for the people who voted for him that he was not for all practical purposes a continuation of George W. Bush. But policy after policy, he has been. And I don't say, outside of a jingoistic hope and change that every democratic candidate since FDR has used, he never really made a commitment to policy change.

Even the talk about closing Gitmo wasn't change, it was a shiny distraction. The last admin. did the same thing. If they closed gitmo, they'd just move these people to secret torture prisons, where no one would be able to visit them, which is what they really want anyway. It's actually neocon to *close* it, and they're getting resistance from international watchdogs.

The healthcare bill wasn't change either. IIRC. Bush spend more on what was a larger expansion of healthcare than Obama did. But this is policy: Expand the amount of money spent on healthcare, esp. that spend by the people. This is corporate welfare guys, not humanitarianism.

So, yes, he's Bush admin redux. The thing is, I've been sitting here watching "actual change" sit there on the sidelines, like Stem Cell funding or the Frac Act, or an end to the wars, etc. And the Dems were sitting there with the complete control over the govt, and they didn't do a damn thing. And why? Same reason they didn't pass the Public Option:

They didn't want to.

People voted not because he represented change, but because they needed to believe that there was an option called Not Bush, and that the globalists were counting on that, and played it to the hilt.

No one is offering any better, it's true. We need to make our own candidates, but I suggest with do it at a lower level. The Presidency is a shiny distraction that keeps real political opposition from doing the sensible thing. Start small.

Quote:

But in all honesty, Obama is doing this, all by himself. His incompetence , his arrogance, will be his great undoing.

I'm with you on the arrogance, and incompetence in getting anything passed that's progressive, even with complete control, but that presumes that he wants to get anything passed, which I'm still on the fence about. Certainly, his mastery of economics is weak, and that was evident in the campaign. I guess my doubt would be "will be?" I think he's pretty well undone.

Like Anthony, I see no real hope for change. The attitude towards Wikileaks is just another part of a govt. afraid of light and transparency. This is a govt. of shadowy backroom deaths with merchants of death and is almost indistinguishable from the last one.

I don't think that anyone has proposed a serious platform of change, but I'll keep watching. I don't expect to see one, outside of fringe candidates who will only get asked questions about UFOs and marijuana, while their opponents get asked serious questions and are given three times as much time.

At this point, and I'm somewhat heartened to see it already happening, it's time to abandon personal partisan preferences and the belief that our own party of preference is good or that the other sucks, and admit that right now, they both suck, and we need them to be a lot better, and that any improvement in the direction of overall representation of the real people's wishes would be an improvement, and try to support it, even if we disagree with the perspective it's coming from, be it socialist or reactionary or whathaveyou.

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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 1:54 AM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
How many of your kids speak Chinese?

Actually, now that you bring it up :)

But I'm not sure I get it.

Quote:
CTS

It's like a gambling addict who lives of his rental properties. He gets stiffed on a lot of rent. Now that isn't right, and he's crying about it. How will he pay the loan sharks now? The answer is very simple. He needs to stop gambling.

Again, you nailed this one. Unfortunately, ain't gonna happen. Next to be seen, in alley with bottle when the agents of pain come to collect.

Quote:
Rap:
VOTE FOR OBAMA OR Y'ALL ARE ALL RACISTS !!!

There's an unfortunate amount of truth to this. Though I think the message was presented more positively: People *felt* progressive when they voted for the black guy, but I'm afraid a lot of them were voting for the black guy, or for a charismatic politician, and not for a set of policies, because when printed on paper, even my leftie friends thought the Obama platform didn't look all that good. I think it was more "marginally better than Hillary." But there were other candidates in that race, it's just that MSM played it up as if those were unreasonable choices, whereas a junior zero-term senator from IL was a logical choice? I'm not sure what he had at that point to bring to the table.

I'll give you this change I can believe in: He goes out and gets his own cheeseburgers rather than sending Rahm Emmanuel, or whoever replaced him.

What lightens this story for me is that it appears Obama's only real defender here is Wulfie :) That really gave me a smile. There's hope for everyone.

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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 7:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Shit. Yes, CTTS, I did confuse you with DT. After reading a bunch I hit “reply” and start responding, and sometimes forget who said what. Apologies. It’s partly no doubt that both of you make good points and discuss intelligently (NOT to say others don’t too, just how you two are linked in the old brain.

About those valid points, however... I’ve come full circle since yesterday, as it happens. Once I learned about all the ancillary things put in the “compromise”, I felt maybe he had achieved some small things after all, and I DO feel for those whose unemployment benefits would run out. Like healthcare, I started to see it as “better than nothing”. But then I read more, after hearing some pundits on TV last night, and now I’m back to being majorly pissed. It turns out the things he “got” in compromising with the Republicans aren’t compromises at all...they’re tax cuts the Republicans were IN FAVOR OF in the first place!! The Child Tax was something they were loud and vociferous on just recently, payroll tax cut, tuition, amortization—those are all tax cuts in essence and pro-business stances the Republicans would naturally be in favor of. So it seems to me he gave away the store JUST to get unemployment benefits extended...which isn’t even guaranteed, as they said they’re going to “discuss” whether it should be “paid for” or not...which means cuts to other things. I’ve come full circle to “compromising asshole” again.

Anthony, while I agree wholeheartedly that

Quote:
To be succinct, I'd rather he strive mightily and fail, rather than 'succeed' at middling victories that stand as such in name only- while delivering a reality that is no better than the hell we knew.

At the same time, I blame the Republicans at least equally for

Quote:
Rather than reverse our course, he has stalled the car momentarily until another driver can resume its transit off the precipice. Meanwhile, the windows are cleaned, oil changed, and gas tank filled to make that final plummet as easy as possible for the next chauffeur.

If they’d made ANY effort to be other than the Party of No, some things might have been accomplished. In that I agree with CTTS. Also, definitely

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And this is another problem. Rather than view this Presidency as a travesty, some people choose to see it as a triumph. People who love Winning more than they love America worry me. Except... I don't feel that anyone is winning. Not really. We are simply trading one flavor of Fail for another.

As far as the lesser of two evils, I don’t regret my vote, considering the only other viable option. In that I agree with CTTS as well:

Quote:
Rather than view this Presidency as a travesty, some people choose to see it as a triumph. People who love Winning more than they love America worry me. Except... I don't feel that anyone is winning. Not really. We are simply trading one flavor of Fail for another.

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If they closed gitmo, they'd just move these people to secret torture prisons, where no one would be able to visit them, which is what they really want anyway.

Baghram, anyone?

DT, please help me understand how the Dems were in “complete control of the government” when the Repubs had the power to simply filibuster virtually everything...and did? Obama couldn’t “create” legislation magically, and the Repubs made it very clear, VERY clear, from the beginning, that they were going to do nothing but call “full stop”. No, I blame them for that... I don’t believe the Dems didn’t want the Public Option, I believe they are too balless to FORCE the Repubs to actually HOLD a filibuster. I’m afraid I don’t ascribe the same things to some as do you.

However, aside from the fact that some (like those here) NEED desperately to believe they won a “huge victory”, I agree 100% that what actually happened was

Quote:
People voted not because he represented change, but because they needed to believe that there was an option called Not Bush, and that the globalists were counting on that, and played it to the hilt.

I don’t buy for a minute that the cry was vote for Obama or you’re racist...that to me is an efficient talking point the right came up with to excuse the valid cries of racism, to appease the actual racists who wanted to believe it, and simply more politispeak to avoid reality. After just calling it perfectly, you reversed yourself and attributed some voting to “not racist”, rather than “Not Bush”. Aside from those on the left who voted lesser of two evils or who actually bought into the “change” thing and thought he was gonna salvage the country, I think your first attribution to why people voted was right on, and the second was just buzz words.

In essence, I blame the Republicans for forcing the legislature to a halt; I blame Obama for not standing up to them and for being a leader the Dems couldn't count on, and the Dems for being too much wooses to go it on their own. A pox on all three of their houses!

It’s interesting that those of us who aren’t hard right are here having an excellent discussion on this issue, while our rightie trolls have nothing to say but idiocy and more fusillades of jerkass rhetoric. I’m just reminded we have no intelligent righties here capable of discussing or making valid points to save their lives. Not worth responding to; there’s no THERE there. Pity.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 8:01 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

If Obama had tried his utmost to create the change he wanted to see, and the Republicans stopped him, then you could be satisfied with him and upset at the Republicans.

But Obama never really got warmed up. He met opposition and folded.

Which suggests he only wanted to be seen to make an attempt.

The Republicans did what was expected. The President did not.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 9:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I don't agree that Obama OR the Dems "met the opposition and folded". They tried many things to get around the Republican's intransegence. They just didn't have the votes to push, to override the threat of filibuster, which is what the Republicans used effectively to stop everything. How do you propose they should have done this? Yes, it's herding cattle, so you could say "some Dems caved", but to blame the entire party, or legislators in either House, for "caving" in the face of the be-all, end-all blockade of filibuster is disingenuous. They compromised out the ying-yang, to no avail. They pressured their own, to no avail. Without the numbers to override a filibuster, how could they "fight"?

It's because of all that compromising that both the health care bill AND this situation happened. It would have been nice to see them force an actual filibuster--that I've wanted all along. But it would have been irrelevant in the end. I guess nobody remembers the various tactics the Republicans pulled to water down the health care bill, and the fact that they are now determined to accept nothing but continuation of the tax cuts for the rich OR ELSE, puts it on their heads in my opinion.

Insofar as that, Obama is correct: They ARE holding the government and the people hostage. "Our way or the highway" has been their byword from the start. Remember: even things they originally co-sponsored, sponsored or were in favor of previously, they fought like dogs against the minute Obama came into office. That alone says it all for me: "We won't allow it as long as a DEM is in power, even if we realy want(ed) it!"

You can defend or excuse them in any way for that, and put the blame on Obama? You weren't here for the battles?

How about START? Or the unemployment thing? How about their now-refusal to raise the debt ceiling; can you envision what that is going to do to Americans?? Our country in default? They're planning to stop the government...sure, there are those here who are in favor of all of the above, but they're not thinking, even short term, much less long term, about the consequences.

No, I put the blame where it belongs; a Republican party which wants to win power, and is quite willing to do so at enormous cost to the American people, the government and the country quite HAPPILY! They look FORWARD to stopping the government from working; how will that affect the rest of us?

I could excuse Obama and the dems for compromising, until it became obvious no compromise would work; once it was, I blame Obama for not at least making a public fight so the people would be forced to see the reality of the situation, instead of buying into the propaganda on the right. He/they didn't make their case to the American people; the American people were too easily snowed; the current situation is the result, and will get worse.

"Win power at any cost" is irresponsible. Compromise is what government is about. To be unwilling to even compromise is unconscionable. To compromise away doing what's right just to gain crumbs is inexcusable. That's my opinion, and I stand by it.

I don't live in a world where things are black or white, and I blame both sides for our current debacle. A pox on all their houses; all are to blame to one degree or another, but NOTHING could be done without both sides being willing to deal.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 9:38 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Obama has never shown any desire to "deal". When he had that "show" meeting with Republicans last Summer over Healthcare, he "reminded" John McCain (in quite a nasty tone) who had won the election. And didn't Mrs. Pelosi herself say that elections have consequences? Odd now that the pendulum has swung back to Republicans that Obama wants compromise.

But to his credit he did what he had to do. The Senate has a filibuster in place, and no lame-duck Dem House bill is ever going to pass....period. Better for Obama to get his un-employment extension at the cost of no tax increase for the wealthy than get nothing....meaning a tax increase for all Americans and no extended un-employment benefits. That would hurt Obama politically perhaps beyond his ability to ever recover. The Pelosi Left has committed many acts of political suicide, and this is where it's taken the Democrat Party. Obama has very few options anymore.

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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 12:21 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"You can defend or excuse them in any way for that, and put the blame on Obama? You weren't here for the battles?"

Hello,

Obama has been an abysmal failure at accomplishing the things he was elected to do. If he had fought tooth and nail to get what was necessary for the American people, he would have my recognition. Quite frankly, there were no battles. There were capitulations before the battles were fought. Worse, in some cases these capitulations placed the American people into an even worse position than they were before.

"He/they didn't make their case to the American people"

Quite correct, and he was obligated to do so. He was obligated to stand up and say, "If you want this, then these are the people standing in your way. These are the lobbyists funneling them money to behave this way. These are the factions making deals to work against you. I'm going to fight this fight to the bitter end, and if you believe in this, then I need you to stand beside me. If they want to obstruct the will of the American people, then they have a long battle ahead of them, because I'm not surrendering what's best for the country."

However, I am most disappointed in myself. I should not be surprised or dismayed at this President. As I said, he broadcast his intentions before he took office.

Can I take pride in choosing the 'lesser of two evils?' I'm not sure.

I suppose if the Republican candidate had won, then we'd have the government behaving in a horrifying fashion.

For instance:

* I wager the government would have granted itself the ability to murder Americans without due process.

* I imagine 'Health Care Reform' would have been enacted that is really a giveaway to the Insurance Companies, with no public option alternative.

* I imagine we'd still have tens of thousands of troops in Iraq.

* I imagine we'd continue building a private army of contractors to operate in Iraq.

* I'd imagine we'd have expanded the war in Afghanistan.

* I imagine the torturers in government would be forgiven, along with those who ordered them to torture.

* I imagine the illegal wiretappers would be forgiven, along with those who ordered them to wiretap.

* I imagine the Patriot Act would still be in effect.

* I imagine we'd be subjected to security procedures at airports that violate our civil liberties.

* I imagine the Bush Tax cuts would be extended, unmodified to address current economic concerns.

All of these horrors could have been ours if we had voted in a Republican. Thank goodness we dodged THAT bullet, eh?

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 12:59 PM

CANTTAKESKY

That's good, Anthony.

I didn't vote for either of the evils. I lost the hope that anything would, or even could, change a long time ago.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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