I can't believe these idiots are still stalling on such an important issue![quote]Senate Republicans mounted a counter-attack Sunday against ratifying a ..."/>

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McConnell leads GOP counter-attack against START pact

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 12:06
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Sunday, December 19, 2010 9:06 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I can't believe these idiots are still stalling on such an important issue!
Quote:

Senate Republicans mounted a counter-attack Sunday against ratifying a new nuclear arms treaty with Russia this year, trying to put off a vote that Democrats say they will win if it is held.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky led the way, telling CNN's "State of the Union" that members of his party need more time to consider the START accord.

"I've decided I cannot support the treaty," McConnell said in his first outright rejection of ratifying the treaty during the current lame-duck session of Congress.

The treaty would resume mutual inspections of U.S. and Russian nuclear arsenals, while limiting both nations to 1,550 warheads and 700 launchers each.

Republican senators are "uneasy" about the pact, and trying to get a vote before Christmas was not the best way to "get the support of people like me," McConnell said.

His unequivocal stance increased the GOP's public opposition to ratification, which would require at least 10 GOP senators to vote with the Democrats to reach the two-thirds majority of 67 needed.

If the vote gets put off to the new Congress, as Republicans want, the number of GOP votes needed for ratification rises to at least 14 because the Democrats will have a diminished majority of 53 seats.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/12/19/senate.start/index.html

Not surprising they'd want to avoid ratifying it, actually..."MORE NUKES! MORE WARS! MORE MILITARY FUNDING!"--who have we heard these cries from most often?

Idiots.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
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Sunday, December 19, 2010 9:45 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Let's see...McConnel is all torn up over a buddy leaving the legislature, but thinks reducing nukes to make the world safer is a bad idea, and has no interest in helping those who are dying from 9/11... You betcha!


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Sunday, December 19, 2010 6:45 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


I'm not saying I'm a McConnell supporter and not taking his side on this issue, but this congress has had a history of coming up with liberal legislation, throwing it at republicans, asking for a quick vote and then branding them as the party of no while rejecting republican ideas and contributions. Maybe when the balance of power changes a mite things will work a little different.

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 8:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I disagree. Numerous times the "left" has tried to pass legislation which was ORIGINATED and/or sponsored and supported by the "right", only to be blocked at doing so by Republicans reversing their support once a Democrats was elected President.

There is also the fact that Republicans announced, before Democrats or Obama ever did anything, that they fully INTENDED to be the "Party of NO" and block everything they possibly could. Nobody "branded" them as the party of no; they gave themselves the name from the very start and stood by it.

As well, Democrats caved time after time to include Republican demands in order to pass legislation (after having made such demands, frequently the Republicans voted against the legislation nonetheless).

Those facts say, to me, that your claim is merely a talking point I have heard time and time again as a rationalization and excuse for Republicans to complain and divert attention from the fact that they have been such huge obstructionists.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:03 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


If part of the pact is written poorly, which as I understand it is, why rush into a bad agreement ?

This is nothing but pure , 100% political grandstanding going on here, by the Dems.

They had plenty of time to work this out, instead, they're using it as a tool.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:25 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
I'm not saying I'm a McConnell supporter and not taking his side on this issue, but this congress has had a history of coming up with liberal legislation, throwing it at republicans, asking for a quick vote and then branding them as the party of no while rejecting republican ideas and contributions. Maybe when the balance of power changes a mite things will work a little different.




You don't remember 2000-2006 very well, do you?

Patriot Act ring any bells? "Pass it NOW, or the terrorists win!" was the prevailing attitude coming from the Republican majority. And the White House.

This Space For Rent!

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:28 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


So Rappy's gone from "you shouldn't take MY tax money to pay for SOMEONE ELSE'S healthcare", to "part of it is written poorly".


Wow. Some patriot you are.


As to WHY the federal government should be responsible for their healthcare... Well, it was the federal government who told them the air was safe at Ground Zero, led by Bush EPA head Christine Todd Whitman. Since they lied, they bear the brunt of the responsibility to try to make it right. Or as "right" as they can make it.

I fully understand why you Republicans are trying to block this, though. You figure if you just prolong the process for a few more years, all the responders will be dead, and you'll be off the hook.

It's what you do. It's who you are.



This Space For Rent!

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:46 AM

KANEMAN


Good for McConnell, that is why we conservatives elect guys like him. If nikki2 liked what he did the country would be in shambles.

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 10:37 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

If part of the pact is written poorly, which as I understand it is, why rush into a bad agreement ?
I'm not surprised you believe it's written poorly; that is exactly the rationalization/propaganda the Republicans have been puttng out for not voting for it. et they've offered no amendments to improve it, if that's what it would take for them to vote for it. The cry that it's a "tool" and the Dems are shoving it down their throat is simply another talking-point rationalization for their stance, to me; if they were serious about "fixing" the problems with it, why haven't they offered valid amendments?

START has been ratified over and over--by Republicans--until they became the "party of no". They've produced myriad excuses publicly for why they vote against numerous things, but in most cases it appears to me they are making arguments to cover their own asses, not valid objections, and they have offered virtually no alternatives.

I find this analysis far more compoelling:
Quote:

It's hard to believe that ratification of the New START treaty is turning into a pitched battle between some Republicans and the White House. This treaty is simply too unexceptional to carry such heavy freight.

The proposed cuts in nuclear arsenals are modest. The START I agreement cut deployed strategic nuclear weapons on both sides roughly 50 percent, from between 10,000 and 12,000 down to 6,000. The never-ratified (but generally abided-by) START II Treaty cut forces by another 50 percent, down to between 3,000 and 3,500. The 2002 Moscow Treaty made further deep cuts, bringing each side down to between 1,700 and 2,200. And New START? It would bring the number on both sides down to 1,550.

The treaty's critics argue that these cuts represent a great leap toward zero and the end of the American nuclear deterrent. The three previous arms control treaties, all negotiated by Republican presidents, and two of which were ratified with full Republican Party support, cut deployed nuclear weapons from near 12,000 down to around 2,000 -- about 80 percent. If anyone deserves credit, or blame, for moving the United States in the direction of zero, the two Bushes deserve a lot more than President Obama.

Sen. Jon Kyl and others are demanding that the administration put more money into modernizing the U.S. nuclear arsenal, since old warheads will become unreliable without major investments in the scientists and infrastructure behind them. As far as anyone can tell, the administration is trying to meet this request.

Some critics express concern that the treaty will limit American missile defense capabilities. The administration insists it will not, and senior officials are on record to that effect. Yet the critics don't seem to be pressing for any new spending on missile defense -- as Kyl is doing on the issue of force modernization. If critics are truly worried about missile defense, that is where they should be focusing their efforts.

Some who oppose the treaty see it as the marquee item in the administration's "reset" policy. They rightly worry that this policy has given Russia too much at the expense of Eastern and Central European allies as well as Georgia and Ukraine. But here again, none of the critics has suggested making any linkage between the treaty and Russian policy toward its neighbors.

There is little doubt that its negotiations improved the mood of relations between Moscow and Washington. This has had some payoff, both in Moscow's behavior and in the administration's. One suspects the administration has moved in a tougher direction on other issues partly because it has the treaty in hand. Successful cooperation with Russia on one front has allowed it to press Russia harder on others. The administration is already paying greater attention to worried Europeans and protesting Russia's continued occupation of Georgia. Would defeat of the treaty help Russia's neighbors? I doubt it. Those who want to fix problems with the reset should focus more intently on those problems. New START is not one of them.

Senators have an obligation to block a treaty that they believe may damage the national interest. But on this issue, Republicans can and should take the high ground and set a better standard. The treaty has its problems -- in verification, where the Russians seem never to be entirely trustworthy, as well as in counting mechanisms -- and so did the treaties negotiated by the two Bush administrations. But New START is not so badly flawed as to warrant rejection.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/29/AR2010
072904902.html


The military supports it
Quote:

Top military officials said on Thursday the United States badly needed ratification of the New START nuclear treaty with Russia, even as Republican senators questioned its implications for national security.

General James Cartwright, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told reporters all the military service chiefs were "very much behind this treaty" because it would provide transparency as Russia and the United States modernize their nuclear forces.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20101216/pl_nm/us_nuclear_usa_start

Given our nukes are out of date, as mentioned above, so I find statements such as this disingenuous at best
Quote:

Republicans are raising concerns about the accord but failing to offer amendments. Some Republican lawmakers challenged the wisdom of the reductions.

"It is naively optimistic to assume that a world with fewer nuclear weapons is the same thing as a safer world," Republican John Ensign said in a Senate speech. "Our security has long depended on a strong and flexible deterrent."

Republican speakers questioned whether the treaty would impede U.S. efforts to build missile defense systems and expressed skepticism about whether the verification regime would be effective.

Democratic Senator John Kerry, whose Foreign Relations Committee led the review of the treaty, asked opponents repeatedly if they had amendments to propose so the Senate could begin to address the real issues with the treaty.

Republicans were discussing a two-page list of amendments, but had made no decision on when they would introduce the amendments, how many there would be or what they would say.

Same cite

I Think this is a more believable explanation, given Republicans' actions over the past two years.
Quote:

Republicans were focused on an issue critical to them -- "ensuring the government doesn't shut down 56 hours from now" because of a funding dispute, the aide said.

"It becomes pretty obvious, doesn't it?" said Senator Richard Durbin. "This isn't about offering amendments. ... This is about delaying the ultimate passage of this critical treaty for the safety of the United States."

Same

And I find this a more logicalargument for passage
Quote:

Administration officials said passage of the New START treaty would be the foundation of any future arms control effort with Russia, including reducing the number of undeployed nuclear weapons and the number of tactical nuclear weapons.

"If we don't have New START in place, then going forward to reduce tactical nuclear weapons and nondeployed weapons over time, which the president has said we'd like to do, is just not going to be possible," said Jim Miller, the principal deputy undersecretary of defense for policy.

Same
Quote:

Good for McConnell, that is why we conservatives elect guys like him. If nikki2 liked what he did the country would be in shambles.
Direct contradiction. Unless you're saying that you conservatives want to elect people who would put the country in shambles...

It might be more effective in arguing against something like START if one were to look BEYOND the talking points to see if they are actually valid, rather than just repeating them on their face.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 12:48 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
So Rappy's gone from "you shouldn't take MY tax money to pay for SOMEONE ELSE'S healthcare", to "part of it is written poorly".


Wow. Some patriot you are.



What the hell does one have to do w/ the other ?

Oh, that's right..nothing. You're just grasping for talking points, on matters which are beyond you.

Quote:

As to WHY the federal government should be responsible for their healthcare... Well, it was the federal government who told them the air was safe at Ground Zero, led by Bush EPA head Christine Todd Whitman. Since they lied, they bear the brunt of the responsibility to try to make it right. Or as "right" as they can make it.

I fully understand why you Republicans are trying to block this, though. You figure if you just prolong the process for a few more years, all the responders will be dead, and you'll be off the hook.

It's what you do. It's who you are.




Yeah, we should have just pulled everyone out, and not looked for any survivors, at all.

That's Kwickie world for ya.

Check the thread subject line, pal. Nothing to do w/ 1st responders. Swing, and yet another miss.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 5:42 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Interestingly enough, from what I heard on NPR this afternoon, the START legislation is likely to pass with Republican support, in part because six Republican former Secretaries of State - including two appointed by Bush II - have endorsed it.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, December 22, 2010 7:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Now that's interesting.

I heard the theory that some Republicans have felt easier about voting for what they really believe because they've lost their seats and don't feel they have to follow the "party line" any more, and that others have broken with the party because the 2012 elections are far enough in the future that they don't think it will hurt them.

I wonder how much of that is true? Certainly Republicans haven't broken ranks except a very few, on a very few bills, up until now, so why they broke ranks now to pass some legislation must have a reason.

The information you provided is VERY interesting to me, given it reflects that those who KNOW BETTER from past experience are willing to break ranks on ths issue.

I wish the GOP hadn't been so vociferous in declaring themselves to be the Party of No and determined to defeat anything the Dems/Obama proposed; we'd have seen a lot of different results, expecially when it came to nominations (most of which they have blocked, I believe).

And of course now they're saying they will make it even WORSE when their new House members come in...real encouraging, that.

It has really infuriated me that they have taken this tack. It also surprises me that so many are willing to accept they've done this, and have no concern that virtually half our legislators have nothing to do but vote "no" on everything and stall any forward movement in this country.

It means these legislators don't even have to read the legislation or even have an OPINION about it, merely show up and vote "no"...and continue to collect their salaries and perks for two years (and now supposedly four). I realize their constituents feel "smaller government" and blocking any "progressive" legislation is a good thing, but given the Republicans have voted against things they originally proposed or supported, provided virtually NO alternatives (and even blocked legislation where compromise on what they wanted have been achieved), speaks to me of their willingness not to even vote what they actually believe or what they educated themselves about.

It's a massive abuse of power, in my opinion, and an unconscionable rejection of their sworn promise to do what is best for the country. How can one just universally vote no without looking into the issue and deciding for themselves? It sickens me.

That they CALL THEMSELVES the Party of No and have shown their determination to vote as a block against everything is so obviously a power grab and has nothing to do with what is good for the country seems obvious to me; they have deliberately voted AGAINST what the majority of Americans want...how is that representing their constituents?? It's not, obviously, and they've been very effective, which doesn't bode well for the future of our government.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
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Wednesday, December 22, 2010 10:58 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Hey, concerning talking points, I am basing what I said off of a Republican who was interviewed on NPR, months ago and I'm afraid can't remember specifics. I imagine that sounds kinda lame, and I'm writing this from an itouch at a wifi hot spot so researching and quotes just ain't worth the time.
Anyhow, the guy said the dems were putting legistlation together (healthcare was the example used) than asking republicans to write their names on it and call it bipartisan but the republicans wanted to actually know what was on it and possible contribute or change parts of it and the dems wouldn't have it and critized them for being inflexible and partisan. The congressman went on to suggest this kind of thing was happening very often. I wasn't just won over by his charisma, he did back up his claims with examples. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by talking points, but as it sounds rather negative I'm inclined to disagree haha.

Concerning the patriot act, I'm with you. I don't think it was wise to pass something like that so quickly without fully realizing what we were creating and we are paying for that mistake now.

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Wednesday, December 22, 2010 12:06 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I would tend to strongly suspect the Republican who was interviewed, myself. That HAS BEEN a talking point on the right for ages, and it's been disproven but continues to be spouted.

We went over this a looooong time ago and I gave some examples, but I've been here too long today already to look them up again. The fact is that there were numerous pieces of legislation with Republican legislators originated, sponsored and/or supported when Bush was in office, which they then turned around and rejected (and fought AGAINST) once Obama was in office. Unless they were completely stonewalled, if they didn't like the bill but believed in the concept, why didn't they work with the Democrats to find a compromise?

The one thing I can offer is this:
Quote:

According to a new Gallup poll, 59 percent of Democrats say it is generally more important for political leaders to compromise to get things, with 18 percent saying it is more important to stick to your beliefs. But 41 percent of Republicans questioned in the survey say it is more important for lawmakers to stick to their beliefs even if little gets done, with 32 percent saying compromise is more important.


The poll indicates that by a 49 to 24 percent margin, independent voters say it is more important for politicians to compromise to get things done rather than sticking to their core beliefs. Those numbers are close the 47 to 27 percent margin in favor of compromise for all Americans questioned in the survey.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/10/democrats-and-republic
ans-disagree-over-compromise
/

Imagine if the Democrats adopted that same rigid unwillingness to compromise. Our government would come to a standstill.As of NOW, they say "no compromise", so it doesn't matter WHAT the Dems put forth, does it?
Quote:

...one senior Republican is promising that his party will refuse to forge consensus with Democrats.

Rep. Mike Pence (R-IN), the third-ranking Republican in the House, repeatedly pledged in a recent interview that there would be "no compromise" with the Obama administration since his party won control of the House.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/10/top-republican-promises-no-compromi
se-gop-wins
/


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
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