REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Re: French billionaires saying "tax us"

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, August 28, 2011 06:48
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VIEWED: 1990
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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 11:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Boy, but that our government listened as well as the French government. For all the negative things I say about France and the French, I gotta give them a big hand for THIS:
Quote:

The French government is to impose an extra tax of 3% on annual income above 500,000 euros (£440,000; $721,000).

It is part of a package of measures to try to cut the country's deficit by 12bn euros over two years.

The tax increase came after some of France's wealthiest people had called on the government to tackle its deficit by raising taxes on the rich.
.....
He said the new tax would remain in place until France reduces its budget deficit back under the EU's intended limit of 3% of GDP, which should occur in 2013.
.....
"This is a rigorous policy that will allow France to remain relaxed," Mr Fillon said. "Our country must stick to its [deficit] commitments. It's in the interest of all French people."

Sixteen executives, including Europe's richest woman, the L'Oreal heiress Liliane Bettencourt, had offered in an open letter to pay a "special contribution" in a spirit of "solidarity".

It appeared on the website of the French magazine Le Nouvel Observateur.

It was signed by some of France's most high-profile chief executives, including Christophe de Margerie of oil firm Total, Frederic Oudea of bank Societe Generale, and Air France's Jean-Cyril Spinetta.

They said: "We, the presidents and leaders of industry, businessmen and women, bankers and wealthy citizens would like the richest people to have to pay a 'special contribution'."

They said they had benefited from the French system and that: "When the public finances deficit and the prospects of a worsening state debt threaten the future of France and Europe and when the government is asking everybody for solidarity, it seems necessary for us to contribute."

They warned, however, that the contribution should not be so severe that it would provoke an exodus of the rich or increased tax avoidance.
(More at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14656486

I guess, along with "Boy I wish our government listened" goes "Boy, I wish they'd pay attention to France!"


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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 6:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Well, the GOP is now in favor of raising taxes here, too - as long as they're raised on the bottom 50%.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 1:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Since 51% of Americans pay no federal income tax, making them tax receivers, instead of tax contributors, seems only logical. There are more Americans paying little or no taxes than there are the 'super rich'. As Barry says, we all need to have some skin in the game, right ?




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Thursday, August 25, 2011 2:04 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 3:29 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Links to The Daily Show aren't a legitimate response.


Good to see that you not only hate America, but hate US history as well.

Your self loathing makes you a classic Left wing boob.




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Thursday, August 25, 2011 3:38 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Try that again, in English.


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Thursday, August 25, 2011 3:44 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


It was English, but as usual, you're too much of a coward to acknowledge the point.

Which is typical for your sort.

You ignore the context of the discussion, and try to distract on the most trivial of matters. You do this because you're incapable of dealing w/ the greater issues.


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Thursday, August 25, 2011 3:48 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Since 51% of Americans pay no federal income tax, making them tax receivers, instead of tax contributors, seems only logical.
We've disproven that one so many times it's not worth a response.
Quote:

Links to The Daily Show aren't a legitimate response.
and illiterate snarks ARE? Oh, wait, I should have said "Good to see that not only hate America... makes your a classic" IS a legitimate response?

I love how you give us so much fodder to mock you, gives me lotsa chances to use my emoticons.

Keep trying, Raptor, someday you may get a clue, if you try hard enough... Or not.




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, August 25, 2011 3:55 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Niki, how can you disprove that which is factually accurate ?

Yes, you love your emoticons. You're a 8 yr old girl, trapped in the body of a senior citizen. We get it.






" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 6:32 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

how can you disprove that which is factually accurate ?
Because we already have, numerous times, in numerous threads, every time you've made that assertion. WE get it.

Won't work, you know, your tack of calling others immature and trying to trigger them with your taunts. At least not on me. All you are worthy of for me is
and the occasional

You gave yourself away, see. Once I realized you so hate my emoticons, it made it that much more fun to piss you off with them.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, August 25, 2011 6:38 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Your self loathing makes you a classic Left wing boob.



Mystery solved - with you as the Right wing boob it's what makes you guys such a good pair.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 7:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Mike; I loved the bits Stewart did; previous I'd missed the "You are a geek crowd!" when they recognized the "World Class Warfare" thing.

I giggled through the right saying "That's $100 million dollars!" about cutting NPR, yet saying undoing the tax cuts would provide "Eh, only 700 billion dollars...that's only a tiny fraction of the government's deficit..."

And yes, Raptor, it is a legitimate retort; Jon can speak the truth and mock the politicians who make statements even THEY know are absurd. And now we all understand now where your "the poor don't pay any income taxes" come from (if we didn't already)!

Obviously you didn't watch them, or you might have noticed that the bottom 50% control 2.45% of our nation's wealth. Yup, not at all legitimate. You betcha.

As he said, "the bottom 50% have $1.4 trillion in EVERYTHING THEY OWN ON THIS EARTH. So he says, let's take half of that...oh, look, that would be...$700 billion dollars! ...why does that figure sound so familiar?"

A family of four making $22,350 a year is considered at the poverty level. Family of FOUR. Try it some time.

I found it interesting that he went on to address that thing I put up about the poor owning refrigerators, etc. That's pretty old news...or maybe he just pulled it up for the bit.

At any rate, everything Jon said is quite legitimate, it's just easy for you to fluff it off because of the source. The facts and figures are correct; that's what counts. And as far as I'm concerned, so were the snarks and the jokes. What, you guys can't take a joke?

By the way, going back and editing your ILLEGITIMATE use of English doesn't fool anyone. You can't change our quotes of what you originally wrote, so saying "It was English, but as usual, you're too much of a coward to acknowledge the point" is, pure and simple, a big fat fraud.

Oh well, that was fun, but now back to REAL issues...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, August 25, 2011 8:50 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Since 51% of Americans pay no federal income tax, making them tax receivers, instead of tax contributors, seems only logical. There are more Americans paying little or no taxes than there are the 'super rich'. As Barry says, we all need to have some skin in the game, right ?



No federal income tax, they pay other taxes, including federal ones, just like everyone else. That has been pointed out to you before.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 11:50 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Since 51% of Americans pay no federal income tax, making them tax receivers, instead of tax contributors, seems only logical. There are more Americans paying little or no taxes than there are the 'super rich'. As Barry says, we all need to have some skin in the game, right ?



No federal income tax, they pay other taxes, including federal ones, just like everyone else. That has been pointed out to you before.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.





Thank you, Nick - and thank YOU, too, Niki - y'all actually got it.

The bottom 50% pay MORE as a share of their "wealth" than the rich do when you tally up ALL taxes.

And income taxes make up only something like 20% of tax revenue in this country.

But thanks for confirming my point, Rappy: The rich - even Grover Norquist - AREN'T really against ALL taxes and tax increases. If they were, they wouldn't be bitching about the income taxes paid or not paid by the poor and the middle class. They'd be CELEBRATING those low taxes!

After all, if 50% of the country pay no income taxes, that means Norquist's halfway to his goal!

But no, they're not against taxes. They're only against taxes for rich people. They honestly do think that while the rich have seen their wealth balloon and the poor have seen theirs shrink, it's really only fair to ask the poor to give more so that the rich can give even less.

And Rappy is very proud of this, and fully supports it.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 6:44 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Since 51% of Americans pay no federal income tax, making them tax receivers, instead of tax contributors, seems only logical. There are more Americans paying little or no taxes than there are the 'super rich'. As Barry says, we all need to have some skin in the game, right ?



No federal income tax, they pay other taxes, including federal ones, just like everyone else. That has been pointed out to you before.




I said federal income tax for a reason. Because it's true. ( Don't hate me because I'm right. Just deal w/ it, and move on. )


51% of Americans Pay No Federal Income Taxes

MAY 4 2011, 9:05 AM ET

Half of American tax payers owe no federal income tax, and most of those filers actually net tax benefits from federal income taxes, according to analysis from the Joint Committee on Taxation in a letter to the Republicans on the Senate Finance Committee.



http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/05/51-of-americans-pa
y-no-federal-income-taxes/238329
/


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 7:33 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

It is an unfortunate statement about the economic health of our nation, when over half of the population is so poor that it is deemed irresponsible to tax them.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, August 26, 2011 12:55 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

It is an unfortunate statement about the economic health of our nation, when over half of the population is so poor that it is deemed irresponsible to tax them.

--Anthony



You're fooling yourself if you don't think that's exactly what some folks have been driving us towards, on purpose. You mistakenly think that this has anything to do w/ folks being " too poor ". A complete bait and switch. Getting as many OFF the tax rolls, and sticking the bill to as few 'rich' folks as possible, has been the Left's plan, all along.


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Friday, August 26, 2011 1:56 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I said federal income tax for a reason. Because it's true. ( Don't hate me because I'm right. Just deal w/ it, and move on. )


51% of Americans Pay No Federal Income Taxes

MAY 4 2011, 9:05 AM ET

Half of American tax payers owe no federal income tax, and most of those filers actually net tax benefits from federal income taxes, according to analysis from the Joint Committee on Taxation in a letter to the Republicans on the Senate Finance Committee.



I never disagreed with your point. I disagree with your overall agrument because Federal Income Tax is not the only tax people pay. So that 51% that don't pay Federal Income Tax do pay other taxes, just like everyone else. That means they do have "skin in the game."

In short, your overall argument is inane.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, August 26, 2011 2:03 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I said federal income tax for a reason. Because it's true. ( Don't hate me because I'm right. Just deal w/ it, and move on. )


51% of Americans Pay No Federal Income Taxes

MAY 4 2011, 9:05 AM ET

Half of American tax payers owe no federal income tax, and most of those filers actually net tax benefits from federal income taxes, according to analysis from the Joint Committee on Taxation in a letter to the Republicans on the Senate Finance Committee.



I never disagreed with your point. I disagree with your overall agrument because Federal Income Tax is not the only tax people pay. So that 51% that don't pay Federal Income Tax do pay other taxes, just like everyone else. That means they do have "skin in the game."

In short, your overall argument is inane.


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.






Yes indeed. In fact, as a percentage of their income, they have a GREATER amount of "skin in the game" than the rich do. That's a fact that Rappy simply cannot "just deal with and move on".

He wants the rich to pay less income tax, but refuses to even consider leveling the field on other taxes.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, August 26, 2011 2:33 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:

I never disagreed with your point.



No, you're just arguing for argument's sake.

Quote:

I disagree with your overall agrument because Federal Income Tax is not the only tax people pay. So that 51% that don't pay Federal Income Tax do pay other taxes, just like everyone else. That means they do have "skin in the game."

In short, your overall argument is inane.



I never had an "overall " argument, other than to correctly and directly state the facts. That 51% of Americans pay no net income tax. I never alluded, hinted, suggested, implied or otherwise said that they don't pay OTHER taxes as well. However, I'm glad you realize that we ARE over taxed, as a nation.

The 'rich' also pay all those other taxes as well. Or are you ignoring that finer point ? Seems like it.

I said that 51% don't pay federal income taxes. Niki, for one, claimed I was wrong. I'm not. I'm owed an apology, at the very least.

And as for the emoticons, I don't hate them. It's their over use, and the hiding behind them, which I find pathetic. I think you use them as a crutch, to interject into the thread when you have nothing of substance or value to add. Their use only reflects poorly on the user, and the desired effect you THINK you're having... simply amounts to nothing.

I feel sorry FOR YOU, more than anything.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, August 26, 2011 2:51 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

He wants the rich to pay less income tax, but refuses to even consider leveling the field on other taxes.



Another distortion / lie. The conversation of taxes leveling the playing field is nonsensical. That's not their purpose. The rich pay more than their fair share, and that's not even debatable. That they still have more in their bank after they pay their taxes ? So what ? They're paying the freight for this country, so what they do or don't have left over isn't anyone's concern.

Now, if you want to really be FAIR about taxes, I suggest you support ending the IRS and help get the FAIR Tax passed.

But I'm guessing that 'fairness' isn't actually your goal at all.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, August 26, 2011 3:12 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I never had an "overall " argument, other than to correctly and directly state the facts. That 51% of Americans pay no net income tax. I never alluded, hinted, suggested, implied or otherwise said that they don't pay OTHER taxes as well. However, I'm glad you realize that we ARE over taxed, as a nation.



Yes you do, and you know it. The whole reason you post that fact over and over is to foster the argument that those 51% should not be calling for the rich to pay more since they don't pay anything. Now you are trying to back track.

...and we as a nation are far undertaxed!

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
The 'rich' also pay all those other taxes as well. Or are you ignoring that finer point ? Seems like it.



How does it seem like? Yes the Rich also pay those taxes. Of course they feel those taxes a lot less.

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I said that 51% don't pay federal income taxes. Niki, for one, claimed I was wrong. I'm not. I'm owed an apology, at the very least.



If you understood his post you would know that he is saying that your claim that those 51% are tax recivers is incorrect. He is right. While some of those folks will get more money from the government then they pay, that is not true for all of them when you factor in all taxes.


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, August 26, 2011 3:14 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
The rich pay more than their fair share, and that's not even debatable.



No, the rich control a much bigger % of the over all wealth then the overall % of taxes they pay.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, August 26, 2011 3:18 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Niki is a 'she', FYI

We're not undertaxed, we're over spent, thanks to our dear and fluffy leaders in D.C. ALL OF THEM.

I'm not back tracking from anything. I just would appreciate it if folks could focus on the topic at hand, and acknowledge when facts are presented, to see them as they are. Whether I have additional views on the topic, doesn't discredit or in any way make what I said to be wrong.





" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, August 26, 2011 3:20 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
The rich pay more than their fair share, and that's not even debatable.



No, the rich control a much bigger % of the over all wealth then the overall % of taxes they pay.



Wealth isn't taxed. Least not yet. Income is. And the Rich pay more in taxes than they bring in, as a % of what they earn vs what they pay.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, August 26, 2011 3:30 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Wealth isn't taxed. Least not yet. Income is. And the Rich pay more in taxes than they bring in, as a % of what they earn vs what they pay.



Income and spending on select things. Just because wealth is not taxed does not mean it should not be taken into account.



I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, August 26, 2011 3:33 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Wealth isn't taxed. Least not yet. Income is. And the Rich pay more in taxes than they bring in, as a % of what they earn vs what they pay.



Income and spending on select things. Just because wealth is not taxed does not mean it should not be taken into account.



As far as taxes to the govt ? Well, it is. Millionaires can still receive food stamps, if they aren't actually earning any income. That's our system. I'd like to see it changed, ( FAIR TAX ) , but I'm also a realist.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, August 26, 2011 3:35 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Niki is a 'she', FYI



I appologise to Niki then, and thank you for the FYI.

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
We're not undertaxed, we're over spent, thanks to our dear and fluffy leaders in D.C. ALL OF THEM.



I disagree, many things government should be responcible for are far underfunded.

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'm not back tracking from anything. I just would appreciate it if folks could focus on the topic at hand, and acknowledge when facts are presented, to see them as they are. Whether I have additional views on the topic, doesn't discredit or in any way make what I said to be wrong.



No one is discrediting the fact you posted, we are just pointing out that it is only a part of the whole story, not the end all be all of it.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, August 26, 2011 5:31 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Nice try, Raptor, but you left out the rest of that article:
Quote:

THEY'RE STILL PAYING TAXES (MOST OF THEM, ANYWAY)

The majority of households who pay no income tax still pay net taxes to the IRS. Federal income taxes account for about 40 percent of total government receipts. Most of the rest comes from payroll taxes, which workers of all income levels do pay. Since every dollar up to $106,800 is subject to taxes, a typical middle class family pays payroll taxes on all its income while a millionaire employee pays payroll taxes on only a tenth of his income.

At the same time, there are Americans -- millions of them -- who really do pay practically zero overall taxes. About fifteen million American households, or 10 percent of all taxpayers, receive more cash from the IRS than they contribute in federal income taxes and payroll taxes. That's thanks to "refundable credits," tax credits that can bring your tax bill into negative territory. To some, these 15 million are low-income Americans benefiting from smart and targeted welfare run through the tax code. To others, they are unacceptable free riders, citizens with a vote but no stake in federal government.

THE TOP 20% EARNS 50% OF THE INCOME

The richest 20 percent of the country pays more than half of income taxes for two simple reasons: America's wealthiest 20 percent earns half the nation's income and their income is taxed at a higher rate.

The wealthiest quintile's share of federal taxes has grown more rapidly than their share of income. This suggests that the rich are facing steeper taxes. Not so. Effective tax rates at the top have fallen in every decade since 1970.

Obviously you are among those who see them as free riders, but what about all the corporations making billions who use those loopholes and other things which pay little or no taxes? Aren't they free riders, if you consider the poor to be?

And back to the fact that A family of four making $22,350 a year is considered at the poverty level. You think, on top of making less than $2,000 a month, they should pay taxes as well? I really WOULD like to see you try it! Don't give me the "well, they shouldn't have had as many kids" bit:

a) Millions of people are NOW in that income bracket who weren't there before the banks ripped us off; and

b) Republicans, on a state-by-state level, working so hard to do away with not only abortion, but birth control, aren't helping limit the number of kids a family has.
Quote:

mistakenly think that this has anything to do w/ folks being " too poor ".
You really are hysterical! You can look at the percentage of wealth the top percentiles have, at least partly due to HAVING the money and power to "buy" tax breaks, loopholes, etc., and actually make that claim.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, August 26, 2011 5:51 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I owe you no apology, Raptor. Let's add some pertinent facts:
Quote:

The actual number of taxable units (households and individuals) that earn enough to file tax forms but pay no federal income tax is actually 38 percent, not 50 percent.
.....
Let’s add some context to the discussion. First of all, as the Tax Foundation points out, the relatively large percentage of non-income-tax payers is a direct consequence of the Bush tax cuts that conservatives laud in other contexts. As the foundation pointed out in 2004, the number of zero-tax filers “was 29 million in 2000, and it will be 44 million in 2004, a 50 percent increase.” Again, it attributes that change to the Bush administration.

And who are the people who don’t pay federal income taxes? Again, according to the Tax Foundation:
Quote:

“Broadly speaking, the 44 million zero-tax filers are: low-income, young, female-headed households, part-time workers, and beneficiaries of the $1,000 per-child tax credit.

The 44 million zero-tax filers will be largely low-income. Indeed, 75 percent of will earn less than $20,000 per year and 97 percent will earn less than $40,000. Fewer than 1 percent will earn more than $75,000 per year – a group comprised largely of business owners whose tax liabilities will be erased due to business losses, carry-overs from prior year AMT payments, or foreign tax credits.

Zero-tax files in 2004 will be overwhelmingly young. Looking at the age of the primary breadwinner on these tax returns, only 22 percent are 45 years old or older. More than one-third (36 percent) are younger than age 25, and 56 percent are younger than age 35. Interestingly, there is a large cluster of households (22.4 percent) where the principal wage earner is between the ages of 35 and 44. Most likely, these are modest-income families who are benefitting most from the increased value of the child credit to $1,000.

In general, then, those who don’t pay federal income taxes tend to be young families with children, often headed by a single mother, where the head of household has a job and is trying to make ends meet on a modest income. The racial background of that population largely mirrors that of the country at large. http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2009/02/24/the-50-percent-pay-no
-tax-fraud-part-ii/
how about the RICH who pay no taxes? As of 2005:
Quote:

The IRS recently released figures to Congress that show the number of wealthy people who pay absolutely no taxes has grown significantly since George W. Bush seized the White House.

The portion of the study that showed full income (from all sources) shows that 5,650 rich individuals and couples paid no federal income tax in 2002.The number of wealthy people living the tax-free life was 4,910 in 2001 and 2,766 in 2000. http://bobgeiger.blogspot.com/2005/07/more-wealthy-folks-pay-no-taxes-
under.html
not insignificant number of those who are clearly well off are also among the “lucky duckies.” There are 78,000 tax filers with incomes of $211,000 to $533,000 who will pay no federal income taxes this year. Even more amazingly, there are 24,000 households with incomes of $533,000 to $2.2 million with zero income tax liability, and 3,000 tax filers with incomes above $2.2 million with the same federal income tax liability as most of those with incomes barely above the poverty level.

It is not because of the earned-income tax credit or the child credit that the ultra-wealthy are paying no federal income taxes.

One reason, undoubtedly, is that capital gains are a huge percentage of their income and they may have losses from previous years to offset any realized gains this year. Perhaps some chose to invest all their wealth in tax-free municipal bonds.

And, of course, a large industry of tax lawyers make their living advising the wealthy on how to minimize their tax liability by exploiting existing provisions of the tax law.

These data look only at legal tax avoidance; they do not account for illegal tax evasion, which is quite extensive.
.....
Perhaps the right and left can at least agree that it is unseemly for those in the top 1 percent of income distribution, with incomes at least 10 times the median income, to pay no federal income taxes. It’s not socialism to ask them to pay something. http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/28/who-doesnt-pay-federal-in
come-taxes-legally/
of U.S. corporations paid no federal income taxes between 1998 and 2005, according to a new report from Congress.

The study by the Government Accountability Office, expected to be released Tuesday, said about 68 percent of foreign companies doing business in the U.S. avoided corporate taxes over the same period.

Collectively, the companies reported trillions of dollars in sales, according to GAO's estimate.

"It's shameful that so many corporations make big profits and pay nothing to support our country," said Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., who asked for the GAO study with Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich.

An outside tax expert, Chris Edwards of the libertarian Cato Institute in Washington, said increasing numbers of limited liability corporations and so-called "S" corporations pay taxes under individual tax codes.

"Half of all business income in the United States now ends up going through the individual tax code," Edwards said.
.....
More than 38,000 foreign corporations had no tax liability in 2005 and 1.2 million U.S. companies paid no income tax, the GAO said. Combined, the companies had $2.5 trillion in sales. About 25 percent of the U.S. corporations not paying corporate taxes were considered large corporations, meaning they had at least $250 million in assets or $50 million in receipts.

The GAO said it analyzed data from the Internal Revenue Service, examining samples of corporate returns for the years 1998 through 2005. For 2005, for example, it reviewed 110,003 tax returns from among more than 1.2 million corporations doing business in the U.S.

Dorgan and Levin have complained about companies abusing transfer prices - amounts charged on transactions between companies in a group, such as a parent and subsidiary. In some cases, multinational companies can manipulate transfer prices to shift income from higher to lower tax jurisdictions, cutting their tax liabilities. The GAO did not suggest which companies might be doing this.

"It's time for the big corporations to pay their fair share," Dorgan said. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/12/national/main4342535.shtml invite you to address THAT issue, which is the other side of "the poor pay no taxes". We've been here before, and I've posted huge corporations who not only don't pay ANY taxes, but get money BACK from the government. What about them?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, August 26, 2011 6:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


If you question the "38%", here's a breakdown of the myth that 50% pay and the actual facts:
Quote:

This talking point is always stated in one of two ways. Either the way John Cornyn phrased it on the Senate floor

the fact (is) that according to the Committee on Joint Taxation, 51 percent -- that is, a majority of American households -- paid no income tax in 2009.
or the way Rick Warren phrased in his tweet

HALF of America pays NO taxes.
Half of All Households?

So let's look at Cornyn's claim first. What do you think when you hear the term "households?" Chances are you think of something similar to how the U.S. Census (at page 104) defines "Household"

A household consists of all the persons who occupy a house, an apartment, or other group of rooms, or a room, which constitutes a housing unit. A group of rooms or a single room is regarded as a housing unit when it is occupied as separate living quarters; that is, when the occupants do not live and eat with any other person in the structure, and when there is direct access from the outside or through a common hall. The count of households excludes persons living in group quarters, such as rooming houses, military barracks, and institutions. Inmates of institutions (mental hospitals, rest homes, correctional institutions, etc.) are not included in the survey.
In other words, a single person, couple, or group of people (extended/unextended; married/unmarried) living in a defined housing unit. How many households are there in the United States in 2009? About 117.5 million. That seems to make sense, right? About 2.6 people per household times 117.5 million equals 305.5 million, about what the U.S. population actually was in 2009.

And what does it conjure in your mind when someone says 'half of all households don't pay federal income taxes?' I'm willing to speculate that most people think half of the houses and apartments in the country are occupied by a single person, couple, or group of people pay no federal income taxes between them. Wrong. Not even close.

Nobody who studies this issue measures how many "households" do or do not pay taxes. What they measure is whether a "taxing unit" does or does not pay taxes. For instance, Cornyn was basing his statement on a Letter to Congress from the Joint Committee on Taxation. They estimated that there were 164.4 million "taxing units" in the United States. Admittedly the entities who compile this data are often guilty themselves of conflating 'households' with 'taxing units.'

So, how does the Joint Committee on taxation define a "taxing unit" when there were only 140.5 million individual tax returns filed in 2009. Presumably they combine the number of individual tax returns with the number of individual tax returns they think should have or could have been filed. (The fact that this entire conservative/media meme rests on a single Letter to Congress that is completely based on estimates and the background information upon which said Letter is based is not released to the media or public is an entirely different rant, but something you should be aware of).

Now I'm going to ask you to assume something, but it's a pretty safe assumption. I'm going to ask you to presume that the vast majority of "taxing units" that had a positive tax liability in 2009 occupied a household that contained no other taxing units that paid federal income taxes.

Sure, there's probably a good chunk of Singles and Heads of Households who pay federal income taxes who live together, but the vast majority of Married (Joint and Separate filers) occupy separate housing units. So let's try to figure out how many filers who paid income taxes occupy houses without other filers who owed taxes.

Number who paid fed inc taxes x estimated percentage living without other people who paid fed inc taxes = approximate number of households with at least one tax payer.

Single - 37.8 x 85% = 32.1 million households with a tax payer
Head of household - 5.3 million x 85% = 4.5 million households with a tax payer
Married - 37.1 million x 95% = 35.2 million households with a tax payer

Add them up and you get approximately 71.8 million households with at least one person who paid federal income taxes. Divide by total number of households - 71.8 million / 117.5 million = 61% of all households have at least one taxpayer with positive federal income tax liability. 39% do not, and I request you to remember that number.

So let's look at this in reverse. Half of 117.5 million households is 58.8 million households. 80.2 million "tax units" paid federal income taxes. So in order for half of all households to pay no federal income tax, 21.4 million "taxing units" must live with other "taxing units" that also pay federal income taxes. Seem absurd? That's because the claim that half of all households pay no federal income taxes is absurd. And the media should find the claim facially absurd as well, but they don't bother looking into it, much less recognize the absurdity.

Here's the problem...a large portion of "tax units" live with other "tax units" and it's a pretty safe assumption that most of those combinations are not "tax units" that pay federal income taxes living with other "tax units" that pay federal income taxes. Thirty percent of all "taxing units" that have enough income to result in a positive federal income tax liability live with other "taxing units" that also have enough income to have a positive federal income tax liability? I don't think so.

Slacker 22 year old pulling bong hits and playing X-box all day living in the basement of his parents suburban home - one "household," two "taxing units."

Elderly grandma and her spinster sister sharing a condo - one "household," two "taxing units."

Four Masters students sharing a flat - one "household," four "taxing units."

Family with live in grandma who also takes in brother-in-law who lost his job due to bad economy - one "household," three "taxing units."

We can see how this plays out when looking a bit at the other entity that studies the topic of 'who doesn't pay federal income taxes,' the Tax Policy Center. For instance, in a 2009 estimate the Tax Policy Center found approximately 46.9 of all 'tax units" would not pay any federal income tax, but when we look at "nondependent tax units" (presumably meaning those tax units that can't be claimed as a dependent by another tax unit) that figure dropped to 38 percent.
.....
The second way conservatives and Republicans like to frame the data is by stating 'half of all Americans don't pay federal income taxes.' This claim is just as dubious as the claim of half 'households.'

In fact, far fewer than half of all Americans pay federal income taxes. Let's see, 37.8 singles, 5.3 H of H, 37.1 Married (times two equals 74.2) = 117.3 million Americans pay federal income taxes. About 305 million Americans in 2009 = only 38.5% of all Americans pay taxes. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/22/1009489/-Breaking-Down-the-Ha
lf-Pay-No-Taxes-Myth
don't like Daily Kos? PROVE THE FACTS AND FIGURES WRONG.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, August 26, 2011 6:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


No apology necessary, Nick. At least "50%" of all people who meet me on the internet think I'm male because of my name. It's actually "Nikovich", a name I officially added to the rest of my name when I was 17. Long story; given most have heard it, I won't go into it again. Has to do with David McCallum (now "Ducky" on NCIS, back then "Illya Nikovich Kuryakin" on The Man From U.N.C.L.E.).


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, August 26, 2011 2:51 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Wealth isn't taxed. Least not yet. Income is. And the Rich pay more in taxes than they bring in, as a % of what they earn vs what they pay.




Not true. When "the Rich" (why do you capitalize that, by the way? Reverence? An honorific to your overlords?) get paid in capital gains (as many of them do), they pay far LESS in taxes - 15% instead of 35%, for instance.

And they pay a far, FAR lesser percentage in payroll taxes. Someone with an "income" of a million per year is paying closer to 0.6% in payroll taxes, versus someone earning $100k a year, who's paying 6.2%.

Overall, the rich are paying a smaller percentage of their INCOME in taxes than the poor and middle class are.

And that's not even debatable, as you're so fond of saying.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, August 26, 2011 2:56 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Overall, the rich are paying a smaller percentage of their INCOME in taxes than the poor and middle class are.



Ahh yes, the Warren Buffett lie.

Been there, done that.

*yawn*


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Friday, August 26, 2011 3:22 PM

PHOENIXSHIP


Auraptor, your comments are a laundry list of misleading arguments, evasive responses, ad hominem, personal attacks. You bob and weave, but you consistently "miss the point" on purpose. That's not to say you're always wrong mind you, but you hold positions that just don't add up.

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

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Friday, August 26, 2011 3:26 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Phoenixship:
Auraptor, your comments are a laundry list of misleading arguments, evasive responses, ad hominem, personal attacks. You bob and weave, but you consistently "miss the point" on purpose. That's not to say you're always wrong mind you, but you hold positions that just don't add up.

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"



Actually, I made my point distinctly and clear. Others are want to be evasive, add on their own agendas, contort the issue, and toss in their ad hominens.

Not sure what you're referring to, w/ regards to arguments not adding up. I'll do my best and clarify, if need be.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, August 28, 2011 6:48 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Welcome Phoenix, don't think we've met, tho' I see you're a REAL "old timer"! Another SANE voice is always welcome; I won't give you the usual warnings about Raptor since you've been here so long and no doubt already know him (you missed "political talking points", which is what he echoes most of the time). I see you recognize it's on purpose, too--took me a looong time to get that.

But you DO know you're pissing into the wind with him, don't you?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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