REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

...annnd the dirty tricks continue

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, June 24, 2012 13:29
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Wednesday, June 20, 2012 7:34 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Simply put, Obama's team has called for an end to heckling of Romney; Romney HIMSELF has endorsed heckling and his team has PARTICIPATED in it.
Quote:

Presumptive GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney said Tuesday he would not call off the dogs in what's become a war of heckling on the campaign trail between his team and that of President Barack Obama.

Asked in a radio interview if he would condemn the practice, the former Massachusetts governor said "it would be a nice thing" for it to end but argued Obama's supporters would also have to stand down.

"I could assure you that we do not believe in unilateral disarmament," Romney said on Fox News Radio.

During the last few days of Romney's six-state bus tour, the Democratic National Committee and other groups supportive of the president have followed the bus path and held protests at many of the Romney stops.

Their tactics came after Romney's team showed up at an Obama speech in Ohio last week and caused a stir by circling the venue and honking. Two weeks earlier, Romney took credit for supporters and members of his staff showing up at an Obama event to make noise and drown out speakers critical of Romney's record as former governor. {"Mitt Romney on Thursday took credit for sending a rowdy group of hecklers to disrupt an Obama campaign event earlier in the day, saying he was merely giving some tit-for-tat."}

Presumptive GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney said Tuesday he would not call off the dogs in what's become a war of heckling on the campaign trail between his team and that of President Barack Obama.

Asked in a radio interview if he would condemn the practice, the former Massachusetts governor said "it would be a nice thing" for it to end but argued Obama's supporters would also have to stand down.

On Sunday, Obama adviser David Axelrod took to Twitter to condemn heckling by Obama supporters during Romney's bus tour.

"Shouting folks down is their tactic, not ours," Axelrod wrote. "Let voters hear BOTH candidates & decide."

The re-election campaign echoed those sentiments in a statement Tuesday and blasted Romney for declining to take a strong stance against heckling.

"We have sent a strong message to our supporters that this campaign should be an open exchange of ideas, not one where we drown out the other side by heckling and crashing events," Obama press secretary Ben LaBolt said.

Romney, however, said he was less sure both sides could actually come to that agreement.

"I know America has a long history of heckling and free speech," Romney said jokingly in Tuesday's interview. "It would be very nice if we could reach that kind of conclusion. I'm not sure it's possible for us." http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/19/romney-america-has-a-l
ong-history-of-heckling/?hpt=hp_bn3
Obama's team decries heckling and states the campaign should be an open exchange of ideas, while Romney TAKES CREDIT for sending hecklers, including members of his own STAFF!

I know, just more of the same, but it disgusts me nonetheless.
Quote:

Protests and incidents of heckling have dogged both campaigns thus far in the election cycle, with anti-Romney protesters forcing the former governor to abandon plans to stop at one Wawa gas and convenience store in Quakerstown, Pennsylvania over the weekend. President Obama was heckled in the Rose Garden by a writer from The Daily Caller on Friday as he announced his immigration reform initiative.

Over the weekend, Axelrod condemned the practice and asked that supporters of the president not engage in heckling for the remainder of Romney’s Michigan bus tour and the rest of the campaign. Romney’s campaign, on the other hand, has issued no such directive and seems, in fact, to be including the tactic as a part of its campaign strategy.

Steve Benen at the Maddowblog wrote, “Keep in mind, we’re talking about a fairly specific, deliberate plan from Romney Campaign HQ. They sent hecklers to disrupt an Obama campaign event in May, and last week, Team Romney sent its bus to circle an Obama event in Cleveland, honking its horn repeatedly, for no other reason than to be obnoxious. It’s presidential politics at a junior-high-school level.”

According to the Globe, the Obama campaign “sent a strong message to its supporters that the campaign should be about an open exchange of ideas, not drowning out the other side by heckling and crashing events.”

Campaign representative Ben LaBolt said, “Campaigns are a reflection of their candidate. Mitt Romney has a different view, endorsing heckling.” http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/06/20/romney-calls-his-supporters-heck
ling-of-obama-free-speech/

I see quite a bit of difference between the opposition supporters holding PROTESTS (which ARE a common occurrence) at Romney's events and Romney's camp deliberately SENDING its people to disrupt events. It's more of the Tea Party tactics of interrupting town hall meetings; whatever's going on, the Obama camp has at least CALLED for an end to heckling, while Romney is quite up front about supporting it.

Same old, same old. I'm sure some rightie or other will respond with examples of Obama supporters heckling Romney, but the point remains; the Obama team is decrying the tactic and asking their supporters to stop, Romney is not just encouraging these actions, it is PARTICIPATING in them.

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Wednesday, June 20, 2012 7:40 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Four legs good, Two legs baaaaad.


(In animal farm, one pig used the chanting of sheep to interrupt the opposition speaker.)



Though actually, I think this is just another kind of advertising. Romney is advertising the fact that he has run out of ideas.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, June 20, 2012 8:05 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Thought this was about NBC's flagrant taking Romney's comments out of context, over the WaWa statement. Just another in the LONG list of hatched jobs by the MSM to paint conservatives and Republicans in a negative, false light.

Like MSNBC's editing of Zimmerman's 9-1-1 call, someone should be fired over this as well.

But I guess that's not what this thread is about, so I'll simply say - on this matter, Romney's right. Heckle away. What's good for Obama is good for Romney. The Dems started it, Romney's gonna finish it, by winning in November.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, June 20, 2012 8:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


That may be it, Anthony, I don't know, but it sure doesn't look all that great. There's a major difference between the two, as I mentioned, and as others have noted:
Quote:

The two candidates running for office have taken different approaches to the heckle question. The Obama campaign does not heckle, at least in ways that are officially sanctioned. Some evidently unsanctioned supporters of the President do heckle Mitt Romney regularly, but the campaign officially condemns those efforts.

The Romney campaign is so incensed by the unofficial anti-Romney hecklers that they have decided to endorse the act of heckling as a sanctioned campaign strategy. A few weeks back, staff and interns from the Romney campaign in Boston shouted over a press conference by Axelrod in Boston and then bragged about their accomplishment. One aide, Eric Fehrnstrom, gleefully called it the “Boston Massacre,” and Romney expressed pride in his team’s work.

On Tuesday, Romney continued down this same path, saying his campaign team “do not believe in unilateral disarmament.”

This statement is problematic, since the Romney campaign is the only campaign that currently supports heckling. Romney said he would love to see “bilateral disarmament,” suggesting the Obama campaign must first find a way to stop people unaffiliated with the campaign from heckling at his events. Romney also restated his support for the heckle as an all-American tradition. “I know America has a long tradition of heckling and free speech,” he said.

There is a difference between those two things. The idea behind the freedom of speech is that a nation is best served by a free exchange of words, or as Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes famously put it in 1916, “the ultimate good desired is better reached by free trade in ideas.” This is why we do not generally prevent each other from publishing ideas, or peacefully demonstrating in public. The idea behind heckling is to prevent the speech of another. It is an antidote to free speech, and the stock and trade of the schoolyard bully.

Republicans I speak with, including those in the Romney campaign, say such arguments miss the point. They believe that the Obama campaign is waging a viciously negative campaign.
So, they argue, it is besides the point to focus on such niceties as permitting public expressions by Obama supporters. Republicans also say it is absurd to distinguish between the heckling of Obama supporters (who are condemned by the campaign they support) and the heckling of Romney campaign interns and staff (who are praised by the campaign they support).

It is one thing for a group of Code Pink protesters to show up at a Congressional hearing about the Iraq War to heckle a Senator to prevent him, at least temporarily, from speaking. This is a particularly disrespectful form of protest, but it is disrespect undertaken by protesters who do not otherwise have plentiful avenues for broadcasting their views, or an official role in facilitating that debate. It would be something else entirely if the elected players in the Democratic process–Senators, Congressmen, presidential candidates–adopted the tactics of Code Pink. The day Senators or Congressman attempt to deprive each other the privilege of speaking in a hearing room, and then boast about it afterward, will be a sad day for democracy.

Something similar can be said for what has been happening on the campaign trail. Romney has used his pro-heckler position to show his toughness and rally his troops. And to his credit he did signal that it would “be a nice thing” if he both sides found a way to let each other speak without disruption. But he has yet to ask those who heckle on his behalf to stop. http://swampland.time.com/2012/06/20/decision-2012-to-heckle-or-not-to
-heckle/
it in a nutshell, for me; it shows the measure of the man. Maybe it shows he's "got nothin'" too, I dunno, but I would venture to say it IS the tactic of a bully. Doesn't make him look especially "Presidential"...

Of course, some of us here are quite content with bullying, but then a lot of Americans aren't.


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Wednesday, June 20, 2012 5:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


It's going to be fucking hilarious when crowds start throwing flip-flops at R-Money at every appearance.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Thursday, June 21, 2012 2:52 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,

Four legs good, Two legs baaaaad.


(In animal farm, one pig used the chanting of sheep to interrupt the opposition speaker.)



Though actually, I think this is just another kind of advertising. Romney is advertising the fact that he has run out of ideas.

--Anthony




Heckling....? Really? In this "nobody's feelings should be hurt" world we live in, this is the bogey man that Obama has to focus his worrying about?

Obama's completely ineffective 4 years in office speak 100 times against him than Romney ever could.

Really, Romney should just take the higher ground and not say anything bad about the guy. He doesn't need to. He doesn't need to even have any ideas, let alone run out of any. The only thing "heckling" is doing is giving the Obama camp ammo against Romney that will speak to the "anti-bullying" crowd.




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Thursday, June 21, 2012 3:36 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
The re-election campaign echoed those sentiments in a statement Tuesday and blasted Romney for declining to take a strong stance against heckling.



Has President Obama himself issued any strong statements against the heckling his supporters are still apparently engaged in, despite Twitters by staffers?

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Thursday, June 21, 2012 5:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Wow again. So there's no difference whatsoever to you guys between a campaign not just encouraging but participating in heckling and a campaign making strong statements to their supporters NOT to heckle? Given what that reflects, I guess you deserve Romney.

It's amusing to contemplate what the responses would be if it were REVERSED. Amusing, but all too easy. A lot of screaming about why doesn't the Obama camp decry all this activity, no doubt...


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Thursday, June 21, 2012 7:46 AM

CAVETROLL


Yeah, the next thing you know, the FBI will be investigating Jay Leno for his monologue when the throws a barb Obama's way.

Seriously, this is a weak, schoolyard kind of thing. Not presidential at all to be complaining about it. Either step up your game and answer the implied criticism with facts and action or go sit in the corner and cry.

Of course SOMEBODY is PAYING people to heckle Romney. Maybe Obama should get his attack dogs in line before he starts crying wolf.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mckaycoppins/anti-romney-protesters-say-theyre
-paid-to-heckle


Quote:


Posted Jun 19, 2012 4:06pm EDT
DeWitt, Mich. — The protesters popping up at Mitt Romney's rallies throughout Michigan Tuesday look like run-of-the-mill grassroots liberals — they wave signs about "the 99 percent," they chant about the Republican's greed, and they describe themselves as a loosely organized coalition of "concerned citizens."
They're also getting paid, two of the protesters and an Obama campaign official told BuzzFeed.
At the candidate's afternoon stop outside a bakery in DeWitt, a group of about 15 protesters stood behind a police barricade, a few of them chanting in support of Obama. Asked why he was protesting, a man dressed in a grim reaper costume pointed a reporter to a pair of "designated representatives" standing in the shade.
"I can't talk, you gotta get one of those people over there to talk to y'all," he said. "They're the ones who can talk to reporters."
Neither of the representatives agreed to give their names, but two protesters said they were getting paid to stand outside of the rally, though their wage is unclear: one said she was getting $7.25 per hour, while another man said they were being paid $17 per hour.
Meanwhile, about 50 feet away, another protest had been organized by local Democrats in conjunction with the Obama campaign. A campaign official told BuzzFeed they had nothing to do with the other group — which he said he believed they had been sent by the labor-backed "Good Jobs Now" — and confirmed that they were being paid...



Which is just hysterical, because they can't find people who believe in Obama enough to volunteer. They have to PAY people.


Kwindbago, hot air and angry electrons

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Friday, June 22, 2012 4:33 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Yeah, Niki... What CaveTroll said....

Seriously.... If Obama needs any help with heckling, shouldn't he be able to call Russell Simmons up and ask him for some of that Def Comedy Jam Wisdom?

No wonder why he was the first Black president we've ever voted into office. He's the biggest whiny bitch we've ever had short of Carter. I've never met a black guy in person that couldn't dish out twice the shit he was given if provoked.

Even this British dude I'd never heard of before has awesome comebacks to hecklers.....



He's so white he would burn in direct sunlight like a vampire, and he's so proper that teenage American youths would assume him gay. He's a tall drink of water that probably weighs in at a buck sixty tops....

and yet, he makes hecklers his bitches.....



Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Wow again. So there's no difference whatsoever to you guys between a campaign not just encouraging but participating in heckling and a campaign making strong statements to their supporters NOT to heckle? Given what that reflects, I guess you deserve Romney.

It's amusing to contemplate what the responses would be if it were REVERSED. Amusing, but all too easy. A lot of screaming about why doesn't the Obama camp decry all this activity, no doubt...

]


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Friday, June 22, 2012 5:16 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Somehow this thread has taken the bizarre turn of suggesting that the President should behave like a stand-up comedian.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, June 22, 2012 5:21 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Well, we have reached the point in this country where many people look to their comedians for their news, and look to their news orgainzations for their comedy...so maybe this thread is on to something...

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Friday, June 22, 2012 5:34 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
Well, we have reached the point in this country where many people look to their comedians for their news, and look to their news orgainzations for their comedy...so maybe this thread is on to something...



Hello,

Touche

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, June 22, 2012 6:43 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


There is, to me, a vast difference between organizing protesters to stand in a group and hold signs and chant, and organizing people to drive around in circles honking their horns, or actually heckling or drowning out someone speaking. Quite a bit of difference. Protests are held every day, they are part of American life. Deliberately going after a speake seems to have been relegated to Tea Partiers and Romney folk, for the most part. Note I say "for the most part", I certainly don't deny EVERY political group has been innocent.

Certainly if the Obama camp is paying people to heckle Romney or his surrogates, I decry it just as loudly. It would have been nice if you'd provided a link so I could read the article for myself and make up my own mind. Or not.

However, I think I'll leave you guys to bask in your ObamaHate, you enjoy it so much.


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Friday, June 22, 2012 7:04 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I remember that sometimes people would interrupt Ron Paul at his speaking engagements, chanting something that disrupted his speech.

I remember he would laud them for exercising their rights to free speech.

I don't remember who these people were that interrupted him, but his response seemed to be agreeable.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, June 22, 2012 7:18 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I found a video of the incident I recalled.




Given the 'mic check' nature of the protester's speech, it seems that this was an incident of 99% protesters interrupting Ron Paul's prepared remarks.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, June 22, 2012 9:43 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


If you recall, I DID say "for the most part". I never denied there was heckling on both sides, in fact I believe I agreed there was. But if we bothered to make a tally of how many times Tea Partiers interrupted their elected representatives versus others, I think they'd come out on top. And if we chose to look at what's happening now and compare deliberate heckling and driving around honking horns AS ENGAGED IN BY A CAMPAIGN, and with which the candidate is not only in agreement, but PROUD of, with a group of people outside a venue protesting who may or may not be connected to the actual campaign, while the campaign itself is calling for an end to heckling...well, to me there's a difference. Apparently your mileage varies.


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Friday, June 22, 2012 10:01 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Apparently your mileage varies.


Hello,

I find all such interruptions regrettable, but I am not prepared to denounce any of them.

I remember you used to laud the mic check chanting operations of Occupy. Occupy is a political movement, if an ambiguous one. They are operating a campaign. They felt the need to make these kinds of free speech interruptions to carry their message across at various functions.

I am not in any position to take a tally and compare sides. I doubt there is any way to know how many times Occupiers interrupted a speaker versus any other political group. I don't think it really matters who 'wins' such a tally.

The fact is, this is a part of our world now. Everyone seems to do it, though some people choose to be selectively offended about it.

--Anthony





Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Saturday, June 23, 2012 7:14 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yeah, you're right. I liked the mic check stuff because I rationalized that they had a set amount of things to say then shut up, but it's essentially the same thing. I was wrong.

Again tho', it is my lack of imagination I suppose that lets my mind be blown by a candidate not only admitting he's in agreement with the heckling, but encouraging it and even letting his staff participate. That's new for me and says a lot about the candidate. Hecklers are part of life now, you're right--they've always been there but now it seems to be the rule more than the exception in some ways.

I do differentiate between a group standing around with signs outside an event, as compared to setting something up where people will drive, honking, around and around a speaker in order to drown him out--added to the fact that the candidate planned and encouraged that. Heckling a speaker is wrong, I agree. Setting up a group of people to stand outside an event in protest IS different to me. That actual heckling is being done in Obama's name is wrong, and I wish they would be more vociferous in telling their supporters NOT to--and hope they aren't just saying that in public while doing otherwise in secret. The article about protesters being paid doesn't surprise me, as those paying them could be anyone (and most likely is unions). But if the actual Obama campaign is involved, that pisses me off.


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Saturday, June 23, 2012 7:28 AM

WHOZIT


There will always be hecklers, they're not going away. They're not dirty tricks just assholes. ANY President who speeks at a collage will do so at his own risk. Barry has been heckled many times at collages but his whores in the MSM down play those reports.

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Saturday, June 23, 2012 11:28 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I have never been heckled by a mixed-media piece of art.

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Saturday, June 23, 2012 11:36 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I have never been heckled by a mixed-media piece of art.



Hello,

You should try it, it's quite fulfilling. Anyone can shout phrases, but it takes dedication and skill to heckle using a thousand pieces of art arranged in a pattern. When someone heckles you with a collage, you know they care.

--Anthony





Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, June 24, 2012 1:29 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Any heckling of Ron Paul was paid for by "either" side......

I'm not suggesting that a president should be John Stewart.... seriously... far from that.

I'm just saying that if you TRULY believe in what you're saying to people, that responses to rebut somebody should come natural, and not be blubbering..... "ex-ex-cuse-me-sir-you-'ll-have-to-wait-un-un-un-til-quest-ions-are-called-f-f-f-for....."

Christ......

Paid for or not, this guy made Obama sound like Porky Pig up on stage.....

Con Man rule NUMBER 1....

The best lie is one that you believe in.....




Truthfully, I abhor the idea of Tosh.0 being president.... but the college kids today would all go out and vote for him. I love the guy, he's brilliant, but not only could he lie to your face and smile genuinely, but he could shut down any LEGITIMATE dissenting voices without any external help and then throw it on youtube so the hundreds of thousands of fans could tweet about how lame that guy who stood against Tosh was.


What's silly to me here is that we're still in a world where Obama is no stand-up-guy (double entendre intended) and you still seem to defend him.

At this point, he can't run off script, because everything "off-script" is too dangerous to touch. We haven't had a political climate this radioactive since 2008, and that's saying a lot because it was a landmark debate that was going to crown either the first black man or first white woman president...

I didn't vote.... but I would have voted for Hilary. I know Bill had his nuts cut off, but he still had some good ideas and I'd like to think that love conquers all and that Hilary is still in love with him after all of these years and might listen to him.... seeing as how he's the only president from the 90's onward who had a clue what he was doing.


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Yeah, you're right. I liked the mic check stuff because I rationalized that they had a set amount of things to say then shut up, but it's essentially the same thing. I was wrong.

Again tho', it is my lack of imagination I suppose that lets my mind be blown by a candidate not only admitting he's in agreement with the heckling, but encouraging it and even letting his staff participate. That's new for me and says a lot about the candidate. Hecklers are part of life now, you're right--they've always been there but now it seems to be the rule more than the exception in some ways.

I do differentiate between a group standing around with signs outside an event, as compared to setting something up where people will drive, honking, around and around a speaker in order to drown him out--added to the fact that the candidate planned and encouraged that. Heckling a speaker is wrong, I agree. Setting up a group of people to stand outside an event in protest IS different to me. That actual heckling is being done in Obama's name is wrong, and I wish they would be more vociferous in telling their supporters NOT to--and hope they aren't just saying that in public while doing otherwise in secret. The article about protesters being paid doesn't surprise me, as those paying them could be anyone (and most likely is unions). But if the actual Obama campaign is involved, that pisses me off.

]


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