REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Forensic "science"

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Sunday, September 30, 2012 23:16
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Saturday, September 29, 2012 8:11 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Just some stuff across my desk this morning, but still valid and of interest, given how MANY wrongful convictions come of this, and my interest in breaking the "stacked deck" which causes our so-called "justice" system to completely fail Constitutional requirements for a fair trial.

Folks love to blame juries so they can point the finger elsewhere, but if they're only given cherry picked and often false information, and attempting to even VERIFY it is considered all but a crime, who then is to blame for that ignorance ?

Calls for crime lab to shut down amid more evidence doubts
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2012/09/20/unanswered-que
stions-st-paul-crime-lab
/

Chemist in Mass. lab scandal could see new charges
http://news.yahoo.com/chemist-mass-lab-scandal-could-see-charges-06581
8281.html


Been sayin a long time that State crime labs are nothing more than mills for manufactured "evidence" and the past couple years there's been enough of this to make a case for it - bitching aside its good to see the necessary purge, but that's just skimming the most blatant corruption off a pretty broken system as incestous and biased as the relationship between prosecutor-police-judge.

We need to do some hard re-evaluation of a lot of the so-called "science" involved here to begin with, cause failure to do that is how nutters like Michael West wind up "credible experts" used to railroad innocent people.

Verdict on Forensic Science: It’s Quite Bad
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/02/20/verdict-on-forens
ic-science-its-quite-bad
/

Lack of standards is a BIG problem, how does one know how close a "compare" *IS* when there's no scientific standard BY which to compare it ?

CSI Myths: The Shaky Science Behind Forensics
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/forensics/4325774

Forensic science is badly in need of reform. Here are some suggestions.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2008/08/
csoy.single.html


Good suggestions these, particularly having the labs report and answer to an agency OUTSIDE the justice system in order to prevent bias and undue influence.


Also noteworthy is the (finally!) scientific repudiation of drug sniffing dogs, who are mostly operating on "clever hans" effect and often TRAINED to fake "hits" to justify illegal searches as an end run around the Fourth Amendment.

NHP Troopers Sue Department Over K-9 Program
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/18886948/2012/06/26/nhp-troopers-sue-dep
artment-over-k-9-program

Quote:

LAS VEGAS -- A group of Nevada Highway Patrol troopers and a retired police sergeant have filed a racketeering complaint against the NHP and Las Vegas Metro Police in U.S. District Court.

The complaint alleges that after then-Gov. Jim Gibbons approved a K-9 program to target drug runners on Nevada's highways, Nevada Highway Patrol Commander Chris Perry intentionally undermined the program.

The complaint alleges that the drug-sniffing dogs used by troopers in the program were intentionally being trained to operate as so-called trick ponies, or dogs that provide officers false alerts for the presence of drugs.

The dogs were being trained to alert their handlers by cues, instead of by picking up a drug's scent by sniffing, the complaint said. When a dog gives a false alert, this resulted in illegal searches and seizures, including money and property, the complaint said.

The 103-page complaint alleges that Perry, along with others, used the K-9s to undermine the program to systematically conduct illegal searches and seizures for financial benefit.

The complaint also alleges the defendants, which also includes the state's Public Safety Department and individuals in NHP and Metro, were involved in a Federal RICO conspiracy, also known as the Federal Racketeer Influence and Corrupt Organizations Act.

NHP, Metro and the state have not returned calls from 8 News NOW for comment.

Allegations also include corruption, abuse of office and official cover ups.


A pretty damning indictement this, and not the only one in process.

There's also the institutional corruption which needs to be addressed, things like using someones refusal to be searched as probable cause for a search (which once outlawed, they get around by bringing in the dog as a trick), or arrested for resisting arrest, yadda yadda.


All that said, there *IS* improvement happening - by turning their own surveillence society around upon them (much to their ire, and attempts to outlaw filming THEM while mandating WE be filmed) and flogging the entitled bastards in the court of public opinion "we the people" have made it just that much more difficult to engage in some of the more outrageous behavior which can no longer be dismissed as isolated incidents and few bad apples due to the preponderance of evidence.
So while the bitching might be annoying, might make things look awful, always remember that's what gets shit DONE, yes ?

On a local level busting the chops of the local law and cutting their budget hard every time they act out of bounds has made a massive improvement in their behavior and professionalism, holding them ACCOUNTABLE always does - and a good bit of them have stepped up the game, which directly benefits me and encourages a certain friendly rivalry and mutual cooperation, which in the end has resulted in the average functional "career" of a local burglar or petty crook being three weeks, max.
Most of em don't even get ONE - not just because of better professional standards and behavior, but due to that behavior the neighborhood is more inclined to work with them when they don't feel they are likely to be accused of something or arbitrarily beaten half to death just for being in the presence of a cop.

They're still not liked very much, mostly cause they're still greedy bastards and see traffic shakedowns (I did mention the ILLEGALLY low speed limits here, right?) and drug busts as income, the latter of which would dry up and blow away if one removed forfeiture or went full legalization.
But all in all, they get the JOB done a hell of a lot better than they used to.

-Frem

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Saturday, September 29, 2012 8:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I'm afraid I can't do anything but


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Saturday, September 29, 2012 3:45 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Another myth perpetuated by Hollywood to keep people in prison.

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Saturday, September 29, 2012 9:36 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"According to the report “no forensic method”—with the notable exception of DNA analysis—”has been rigorously shown able to consistently, and with a high degree of certainty, demonstrate a connection between evidence and a specific individual or source.

The disciplines based on biological or chemical analysis, such as toxicology and fiber analysis, generally hold an edge over fields based on subjective interpretation by experts, such as fingerprint and toolmark analysis…”

"Not all forensic disciplines are in dispute.

Techniques that grew out of organic chemistry and microbiology have a strong scientific foundation. For example, chromatography, a method for separating complex mixtures, enables examiners to identify chemical substances in bodily fluids—evidence vital to many drug cases. The evolution of DNA analysis, in particular, has set a new scientific standard for forensic evidence."





Drug analysis is also a well-developed, statistically well-controlled statistically, highly reliable technique. Fiber analysis is also a highly reliable method.


I have never worked in a crime lab. I have worked in medical testing labs, medical research labs, biological labs, biological research labs, chemistry labs and environmental labs including labs that did trace environmental testing. Many of the most reliable techniques used in forensic labs had their start elsewhere: drug testing is based on THERAPEUTIC drug monitoring - how much digitalis does this person have in their blood? how much anticonvulsant? Fiber identification is based on two techniques - one is a specialized microscopy technique used by geologists to identify minerals, the other uses a special light source called FTIR to identify organic chemicals; Another test is DNA analysis, invented by biologists to study inheritance and populations.

It's not ALL smoke and mirrors - there is some genuinely good work done in forensics.

It's sweeping and wrong to claim it's ALL bad.

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Sunday, September 30, 2012 1:30 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Not sayin the SCIENCE is bad doll, it's the use of it.

DNA is pretty damn accurate, you do it right, sure.
But the slapdash halfassed and biased way they go about things in your typical crime lab by NO means resembles anything you might find in a proper one, that for damned sure.

Take your point about drug testing - your lab would say how MUCH of this or that is in a persons blood, etc.
But many "drug tests" are an on/off with such a low goddamn threshold that one could get a false positive off eating poppyseed muffins - and yes, that HAS happened, hell it happened to ME once, which is why I am such a hardass about the inaccuracy of many of these tests - the ones used by many officers, like the Narcopouch have an abundance of false positives, and some of the time officers will deliberately cause one.
http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/2009/mar/06/feature_citing_startli
ng_researc


Believe me, if people who actually took SCIENCE seriously instead of paid drones producing evidence ran these places, I'd be a lot happier - ain't the science in a lotta cases, it's the people performing it.
That and there needs to be better standards, and more honesty - an 80% probability still leaves 20% chance it ain't so, and yet they go to court and testify in words misleading enough to skirt perjury.

Oh, and a semi-related side note, a friend in PA was telling me about an Enviro lab in PA which just got its ass kicked recently for falsifying results and lying to the FDA/EPA.. (looks it up)...
http://www.justice.gov/usao/pae/News/2012/Sep/bluemarsh_release.htm
If only we held crime labs anywhere near as accountable.

-Frem

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Sunday, September 30, 2012 5:07 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"But many "drug tests" are an on/off with such a low goddamn threshold that one could get a false positive off eating poppyseed muffins ..."

It's worse that that, as MANY other OTC and prescription medications, and even ordinary household substances cross react and indicate illegal drugs both in the pouch and in a blood/ urine test (blood/ urine tests being based on medical testing do happen to be far better than pouch tests), and many blood/ urine screening tests detect extremely low levels, like you might get from being at a concert where other people are smoking weed. On top of that, diabetic ketoacidosis will register as alcohol on a breathalyzer. Even being on a low-carb diet will do the same thing. That's why these are SCREENING tests, to be followed up with a more complicated lab test that's difficult to 'fool' and doesn’t produce false positives; and that can distinguish between intoxicating levels and trivial amounts.

Even your articles indicate the problem is with the screening tests, the more complicated lab tests are OK.

Oh, FWIW I know someone personally (a black male drug user and small-time dealer) who was jailed for murder and who was cleared by the Los Angeles police lab with DNA evidence. So it's not like police labs ALWAYS cook the evidence.

So while I don't blanket trust police, and I REALLY don't trust the police/spy alphabet agencies, it's not helpful to criticize where problems don't exist. Credible tests done credibly shouldn't be an issue for you.

As for your second link:

"The defendants pleaded guilty to devising a scheme to defraud customers and to obtain money and property from customers by means of false and fraudulent representations regarding test results. They also admitted to violating the Clean Water Act, and submitting a false test report to the Food and Drug Administration.

Blue Marsh and McKenna, primarily in the business of analytical testing of environmental samples of water and wastewater, caused environmental test reports to be prepared and mailed to customers which falsely stated that proper EPA methods were followed when they weren't. The test results then were false, inaccurate and unreliable ..."

This was a private firm not a government agency. I thought you were all for private firms b/c they were somehow better. The people who caught this firm were the big bad EPA government goons. And the problem was that the testing was done not according to spec, not that the science itself was bad.

Fraud is fraud, and police don't have a lock on it, and private firms aren't immune.


So, to get back to the areas that really are a problem: forensic testing that's not scientifically based like fingerprint analysis, blood spatter, ballistics and toolmark analysis; and a system that lets police and prosecutors get away with fraudulent testing. What should be done about them?

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Sunday, September 30, 2012 6:50 AM

BYTEMITE


There's problems with the entire system really.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57522834/massachusetts-lab-tech-
arrested-for-alleged-improper-handling-of-drug-tests
/

I'd like to think that's not common and other labs have integrity, but I also have to wonder if many labs do play along with prosecutors, there's reasons I can't ignore why it could be like that. Which means this could be ubiquitous.

However I agree that fingerprint analysis, blood spatter, ballistics, and toolmark analysis are often questionable, and prosecutors and police are often corrupt.

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Sunday, September 30, 2012 7:38 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"I'd like to think that's not common and other labs have integrity, but I also have to wonder if many labs do play along with prosecutors ..."

In this particular instance the problem went back to a single individual - an analyst - not to overall corruption, or a lab 'playing along' with prosecutors, or other generic factors. Don't conflate individual malfeasance with systemic problems, or you'll just be another little rappy making unsupported comments about whole groups of people.

In the places where I've worked we had a number of checks in place - from using standard validated methods, to running extensive QC, to being accredited, to having provably capable people, to having 100% review of all results plus computer programs screening for outliers or unusual patterns - and these are only select examples.

Of all the places I've worked, there was only 1 bad result that we ever found out about that didn't get caught before it left the lab, and that was due to an instrument that went out of spec in a very unusual way - so unusual the manufacturer had to be called in to investigate what went wrong.

I personally have developed - created from scratch - new 'standard methods' that are now used for environmental enforcement purposes, as have a number of my colleagues. These tests get vetted through other agencies, through industry, and through private consensus organizations like ASTM as well as through international organizations.

And I've been a part of an accrediting agency, going out and overseeing private labs to make sure their testing is up to spec. I've also been part of a 'reference lab', a lab whose work is of such a high standard that they analyze the standards that go out to other labs. NIST is a reference lab, for example.

So I know credible testing can be done, has been done, and is being done in many areas of medical testing and 'enforcement' with a high level of investment into 'getting it right'. The challenge is to bring that level of credibility into areas of forensic testing where it's lacking.

The secondary challenge I see is the general one of integrity. I don't know of a single person I've run across who fudged their analysis. But any time there is some vested interest in a particular result - and that vested interest could be profit or conviction rate or work output - there is the temptation to fudge. And there are people who do that. There are groups who do that. There may even be whole departments who do that. Once integrity - which is that inner refusal to compromise no matter the cost or benefit - is lost, how do you find that out?

In my experience the answer is sunshine. All steps should be available for review. All labs should be open for inspection. That includes private labs.

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Sunday, September 30, 2012 8:42 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

you'll just be another little rappy making unsupported comments about whole groups of people.



Yes. Because saying I'm concerned that there might be system wide corruption is exactly the same as my rabid islamophobia.

Why do any of us continue to subject ourselves to these constant insults and allegations when we're just trying to have a conversation? Are we all simply unable to have a disagreement without bringing out the ad hominems?

I'm as guilty as taking things personally, but you know what? My GRANDFATHER was a cop, much of my family is comprised of lawyers, I have as much personal stake in all of this as the rest of you. And yet, I question the police, I question lawyers, I wonder if they're corrupt, I wonder if my family is corrupt. I wonder if I am corrupt by extension. It is existential crisis all as fuck up in my think pan.

You've made a positive difference? Good for you. But maybe other people are taking your positive difference and running the other way, interception and touchdown. Maybe we need to take a close look at all of this, and maybe concerns can't just be dismissed by comparing me to AURAPTOR. kay kay thanx.

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Sunday, September 30, 2012 10:26 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"... but I also have to wonder if many labs do play along with prosecutors, there's reasons I can't ignore why it could be like that."

You took the example of a single lab, whose problem was a single person, that wasn't about 'playing along with prosecutors', and expanded that example to 'MANY labs ... play(ing) along with prosecutors'. I was just saying not to do that. Which seems pretty reasonable to me. I'm sure there are enough problems to go after without that.

Look at the title of this thread - Forensic "science". Now that was a pretty broad and unfounded shot against the entire field, as if none of the science was better than voodoo. I was saying there is scientifically valid testing done by ethical people and provided specific examples, as well as mechanisms as to how that happens.

As to your family and your internal reverberations to this, if I was you I'd wonder about my grandfather. As to the lawyers, they'd be privy if they were criminal lawyers in the prosecutor's office. If not, then I'd think probably not.

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Sunday, September 30, 2012 1:22 PM

BYTEMITE


"A singular contradicting case is not enough to overturn precedence."

It can, however, be indicative of a heretofore unobserved trend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_conviction#United_States

http://www.courierpress.com/news/2011/jun/19/wrongful-convictions-poss
ible/?preventMobileRedirect=1


http://articles.cnn.com/2011-01-27/justice/siu.rogue.justice.taylor_1_
jacquetta-thomas-crime-lab-police-station/2?_s=PM:CRIME


I did not write the thread title. I am firmly of the opinion that we don't know enough yet to determine whether this one case in Massachusetts is an exception or not. Perhaps it was just this one person. Perhaps she was just the scapegoat and this is the tip of an iceberg. Further inquiry is needed.

However, even just human error without malice would suggest to me that there are sufficient examples of wrongful conviction based on laboratory evidence to be a concern. One is too many.

As to the lawyers in my family, it goes farther than that. Corruption is not only the realm of prosecutors - it is a concern in any manifestation of enforcement, the judicial process, or lawmaking.

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Sunday, September 30, 2012 1:31 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Well, I think I indicated plenty of areas for concern. I also tried to point out ways that the problems could be mitigated. Just as I don't agree with blanket condemnation, I don't agree with blanket exculpation. That's all I've been pointing out.

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Sunday, September 30, 2012 1:34 PM

BYTEMITE


That's fair. It is too early to determine the scope of this.

I mostly took issue with what I saw as the tone of the argument, but I could have been paranoid or imagining things.

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Sunday, September 30, 2012 11:16 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Credible tests done credibly shouldn't be an issue for you.

They ain't - it's when less than credible stuff is passed off as absolute, and/or when lumped in with seriously UNscientific guesswork masquerading as "science" cause that also demeans the stuff that *is* credible.

Quote:

I thought you were all for private firms b/c they were somehow better. The people who caught this firm were the big bad EPA government goons.

Umm, no.
Where you mighta got *THAT* idea I dunno - but I pointed out recently in another thread that the FDA/EPA are more or less necessary cause of the utter impossibility of self-testing everything.

I myself find little difference between corporations and governments, save that in most cases the latter has more force and/or public support - I don't trust neither of em very much unless there is substantive and effective oversight, which is more common, such as it is, to governments.
I've been digging into some research on the problem of "regulatory capture" recently, which is a pretty damn significant problem, alas.

Quote:

Fraud is fraud, and police don't have a lock on it, and private firms aren't immune.

Well duh, which is why better standards would help - I posted the link where the EPA busted that companies chops as a counterpoint to show why, where and when HAVING a decent set of standards and holding folks to them makes a positive difference.

Quote:

So, to get back to the areas that really are a problem: forensic testing that's not scientifically based like fingerprint analysis, blood spatter, ballistics and toolmark analysis; and a system that lets police and prosecutors get away with fraudulent testing. What should be done about them?

Well first and foremost one needs to seperate the testing labs from the whole "justice" system machinery - otherwise they wind up locked into the same feeding cycle as police-prosecutor-judge, and that's a freakin MAGNET for corruption and bias all day long.

Second, there needs to be a better set of standards for what can be validated as hard evidence, and what is guesswork and testimony, there's a big difference between saying...
"the marks are consistent with X gun and Y bullets 60% of the time"
And stating that that the defendants gun fired that shot, yes ?

Quote:

In this particular instance the problem went back to a single individual - an analyst - not to overall corruption, or a lab 'playing along' with prosecutors, or other generic factors. Don't conflate individual malfeasance with systemic problems, or you'll just be another little rappy making unsupported comments about whole groups of people.

Ahem, this in regards to both around here, and on the institutional corruption level.

Michigan State Police agree to investigate abandoned Detroit crime lab
http://www.freep.com/article/20110527/NEWS01/110527021/Michigan-State-
Police-agree-investigate-abandoned-Detroit-crime-lab

Quote:

Worthy, who urged the city to close the lab after an audit found serious errors in evaluating evidence, said police assured her that the evidence was removed to a safe location.

But a Free Press report this morning revealed that authorities left behind evidence, chemicals, gunpowder, buckets of bullets, computers, fax machines, phones and police reports with the Social Security numbers of rape and other assault victims.

"When the Detroit crime laboratory closed, we inquired about where the existing evidence would be housed," Worthy said this morning. "The day the lab was closed, and repeatedly thereafter, we were told that the evidence had been inventoried, packaged and moved out of the old crime lab to a secure and appropriate location. We were told this was being done by the lab scientists under the direction of DPD. The old lab was supposedly vacant."



Detroit's abandoned crime lab adds to a disturbing U.S. trend
http://www.freep.com/article/20110529/NEWS01/105290502/Detroit-s-aband
oned-crime-lab-adds-disturbing-U-S-trend

Quote:

The stunning discovery of piles of evidence in a rotting old building last week put Detroit on a growing national list of crime labs accused in recent years of making big mistakes.

The Motor City joins labs in Houston, New York, North Carolina, Virginia and Washington plagued with similar problems.

"This is just another glaring example of what is now an epidemic in crime lab negligence," said Drew Findling, chairman of the Forensic Discipline Committee for the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers.

Of Detroit's lab fiasco, Findling said: "It's really one of the most shocking stories."

The Free Press discovered last week that evidence sat in a decaying old school for months, the remains of the city's crime lab that was ordered closed in 2008 because of shoddy police work. Among the rubble -- susceptible to thieves and vandals -- were thousands of rounds of live ammo, sealed evidence kits and case files


While admittedly Federal oversight might help, there's also the problem of getting it to WORK around here cause we've had to repeatedly fire the damn Fed monitors for corruption on top of it, so one can understand my annoyance - and this *is* a substantial, ongoing problem on a wide scale.
Most of it seems to come down to halfassery, bad procedure/no procedure, poor training, and so on and so forth, but that ALSO provides an environment ripe for the encouragement of cooking evidence.
Less rats on a tighter ship, you understand ?

The mess in Houston back in 2008 was especially galling, and indicative of exactly the type of issues we're talkin about here.
Police Crime Labs Struggle with Funding, Training and Bias Issues
http://www.govtech.com/public-safety/Police-Crime-Labs-Struggle-with-F
unding.html?id=&topic=117680&story_pg=4

Quote:

The reviews found hundreds of cases where incompetence, inadequate training and resources, lack of guidance and even intentional bias on the part of a crime lab - which is not independent from the HPD - contributed to mistakes.

"It's really a complicated issue not just for this crime lab. With this crime lab, almost everything that could go wrong did go wrong," said Marie Munier, chief of the Public Service Bureau with the Harris County District Attorney's Office, which prosecuted Sutton and others whose cases are still being examined to determine the extent of mistakes and whether they led to wrongful convictions.

Some problems with the HPD Crime Lab - such as underfunding, poor staff training and close ties to police and prosecutors - also may be inherent in crime labs across the country.

A 2004 investigation by the Seattle Post-Intelligencer found 23 DNA testing errors in serious criminal cases handled in a Washington state lab. In North Carolina, the Winston-Salem Journal recently ran a series of articles about many DNA testing errors by the North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation. In Virginia, it took an outside investigation to clear Earl Washington Jr., who was falsely convicted of capital murder and nearly executed. An independent lab reused the same samples that led to his conviction but found contradicting results.

That's not all. DNA testing errors are cropping up nationwide: California, Minnesota, Pennsylvania and Nevada have documented major problems recently.

Munier agreed the troubles are widespread. These issues have prompted critics to call for greater independence among the nation's crime labs, which typically are run by law enforcement agencies.



Also worth a mention is Ginaellis report from 1994.
4 Va. J. Soc. Pol'y & L. 439 (1996-1997)
Abuse of Scientific Evidence in Criminal Cases: The Need for Independent Crime Laboratories, The; Giannelli, Paul C.

I don't have a link as I have this in hardcopy, alas.

That enough evidence of "systematic problems" for you, ehe?

-Frem

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