REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Hate Crime or Crime of Insanity?

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Saturday, January 5, 2013 09:11
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Monday, December 31, 2012 4:14 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/29/justice/new-york-subway-death/index.html
?iref=obnetwork


Hello,

Personally, I think that anyone who roams about murdering strangers is an insane person. However, this person was reportedly talking to themselves before the murder, further reinforcing the possibility to my mind.

I hope this person is not simply planted in a prison so that their fractured mind will further break into tinier, sharper pieces.

--Anthony

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Monday, December 31, 2012 4:27 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Crime is crime. Adding 'hate' to it shouldn't in the least bit change what was done.

Anyone willing to push a complete stranger off a platform to their death, is pretty fractured already. If it were up to me, I'd give them the death sentence, and be done w/ it.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, December 31, 2012 8:14 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hate crimes ARE a form of insanity, as far as I'm concerned. Pushing someone to their death in a railway station is a crime of insanity, as well.

Our mental health system is in a shambles and has been for a long time.
Quote:

On virtually every front, Medicaid and other government agencies, the drug industry, and health-care providers all play a part in a fragmented system that uses taxpayers' dollars to pay for treatments and drugs that too often don't work. At the same time, wholesale budget cuts, convoluted reimbursement rules, and conflicting funding agencies have helped create a perfect storm of waste, needless deaths, and ineffectiveness. Tragically, this has diverted scarce resources from proven, recovery-oriented programs such as "supported employment" that promotes a guided return to work, or integrated "dual diagnosis" treatment for the 50 percent or more of seriously mentally ill people who are also substance abusers. "Medicaid hasn't given much attention to mental-health reform, just to cutting costs," observes Dr. Robert Drake, the director of the multiyear National Evidence-Based Practices Project who also leads the Dartmouth Psychiatric Research Center. "We're funding vested interests to suck profits out of the system rather than helping the patient."

All told, financing policy plays a central role in a system that President Bush's own New Freedom Commission on Mental Health declared nearly six years ago to be in "shambles." Indeed, Medicaid and the broader public system of health care for people with mental illness is such an uncoordinated mess that a study last year by the National Association of State Mental Health Program Directors reached a shocking conclusion: Mentally ill adults who receive treatment in the public-health system die 25 years sooner, on average, than Americans overall. Excerpt from http://www.alternet.org/story/92406/america's_mental_health_care_s
ystem_in_shambles

Quote:

Figures:

Number of ambulatory care visits (to physician offices, hospital outpatient and emergency departments) with mental disorders as primary diagnosis: 67.4 million (average annual 2006-2007)

Number of discharges with psychoses as first-listed diagnosis: 1.6 million

Prison system:

At midyear 2005 more than half of all prison and jail inmates had a mental health problem, including 705,600 inmates in State prisons, 78,800 in Federal prisons, and 479,900 in local jails. These estimates represented 56% of State prisoners, 45% of Federal prisoners, and 64% of jail inmates.

More than two-fifths of State prisoners (43%) and more than half of jail inmates (54%) had symptoms that met the criteria for mania.

An estimated 15% of State prisoners and 24% of jail inmates had symptoms
that met the criteria for a psychotic disorder.

New federal statistics reveal that the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons and jails has quadrupled over the past six years.

In 1998, the BJS reported there were an estimated 283,000 prison and jail inmates who suffered from mental health problems. That number is now estimated to be 1.25 million. The rate of reported mental health disorders in the state prison population is five times greater (56.2 percent) than in the general adult population.

Prison staff often punish mentally ill offenders for symptoms of their illness, such as being noisy, refusing orders, self mutilating or even attempting suicide. Mentally ill prisoners are thus more likely than others to end up housed in especially harsh conditions, including isolation, that can push them over the edge into acute psychosis.

Homelessness

According to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, 20 to 25% of the homeless population in the United States suffers from some form of severe mental illness. In comparison, only 6% of Americans are severely mentally ill.

Mental illness was the third largest cause of homelessness for single adults (48% of cities). Mental illness was the third largest cause of homelessness for families (12% of cities).

People with mentally illnesses are much more likely to become homeless than the general population (Library Index, 2009). A study of people with serious mental illnesses seen by California’s public mental health system found that 15% were homeless at least once in a one-year period (Folsom et al., 2005). Patients with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder are particularly vulnerable.

Poor mental health may also affect physical health, especially for people who are homeless. This may lead to physical problems such as respiratory infections, skin diseases, or exposure to tuberculosis or HIV. Minorities, especially African Americans, are over-represented in this group.

Emergency Rooms

Across the country, doctors are facing a spike in psychiatric emergencies - attempted suicide, severe depression, psychosis - as states slash mental health services and the country's worst economic crisis since the Great Depression takes its toll. This trend is taxing emergency rooms already overburdened by uninsured patients who wait until ailments become acute before seeking treatment.

More than 70 percent of emergency department administrators said they have kept patients waiting in the emergency department for 24 hours, according to a 2010 survey of 600 hospital emergency department administrators. Ten percent said they had "boarded" patients for a week or more.

"Often you have a patient strapped to a gurney in a hallway outside of the emergency department where social workers are desperately trying to find an inpatient bed," Randall Hagar, director of government affairs for the California Psychiatric Association, said.

In North Carolina, the state has cut its inpatient psychiatric capacity by half since 2005. "Now you are adding in patients who are unsafe to leave but yet have nowhere to go," Dr. Bret Nicks, an emergency physician and a spokesman for the American College of Emergency Physicians, said. "I consider patients with acute psychiatric needs as really the forgotten patient population in the U.S. right now."

In a tiny facility in Spring Valley, Illinois, awoman asked Dr. William Sullivan to switch her prescriptions to drugs that could be found on the $4 discount list at Wal-Mart and other discount stores.

"I didn't feel comfortable doing that," Sullivan said, noting that emergency physicians are being asked to deliver specialized care that should be handled by a psychiatrist. "It's almost akin to having a cardiac patient come in and say, 'I need someone to adjust my defibrillator.' In the emergency department, we can do a lot, but there are some things we should leave with the specialists," he said.

Deinstitutionalization

Deinstitutionalization is the name given to the policy of moving severely mentally ill people out of large state institutions and then closing part or all of those institutions; it has been a major contributing factor to the mental illness crisis.

Deinstitutionalization has two parts: the moving of the severely mentally ill out of the state institutions, and the closing of part or all of those institutions.

Suicide

About 90 percent of persons who completed suicides in all age groups had a diagnosable mental or substance abuse disorder. 10-13% of individuals with schizophrenia and 15% of individuals with bipolar disorder kill themselves.

Each week, two mentally ill patients take their lives while under the care of the public health system - and the situation is far worse than a decade ago. Hospitals are under constant pressure to release unwell patients too early to free up beds, undermining suicide prevention strategies, experts say.

The vast majority of those who killed themselves - 86 per cent in 2009-10 - did so within days of contact with a public mental health service. And the proportion of mentally ill patients who end their lives has jumped from 9.2 per cent of all suicides in 2000-01 to 17.5 per cent in 2008-09.

From 1977 to 2003, suicide rates in the Army closely matched the rates of suicide in the civilian population, and were even on a downward trend. But after 2004, the rates began to climb fast, outpacing the rates in civilians by 2008. The study found that suicide rates were higher among soldiers who had been diagnosed with a mental illness in the year before their death. Studies have shown rising rates of mental illness among U.S. military service members in recent years.
(Figures from DOJ, NIMH, CDC and others)


It goes on and on and on. Budget cuts have all but destroyed an already-fractured mental-health system in America. The facts and figures are horrendous, and it's only getting worse. Some of the above dates back to 2005; none is more recent than 2011, so you can extrapolate how much worse it is now.


Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Tuesday, January 1, 2013 10:54 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I think it displays quite firmly the inherent malice of our social priorities in that there's plenty of money to prosecute and incarcerate them, but no money to treat them despite it being a cheaper longterm solution.

There's just something very wrong with a society which will spend more money on vengeance over something which would have never occured if they'd spent a little less, a little earlier, on something other than hurting people.

-Frem

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Wednesday, January 2, 2013 11:24 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


That is quite a true statement Frem. I live in NY and often see people traveling in the system that talk to themselves or make violent gestures at passersby.

One has to be alert at all times, but yes, many of these cases could be prevented with a better system in place to treat the mentally ill. I read somewhere that she had made similar threats before. Also these types of incidents are being reported, after the fact, more frequently.

There is the case of the man from Upstate NY that had a neighbor buy guns for him, he was unable to buy guns because of a criminal record. He set his house on fire and laid in waiting for the firemen - shot 2 dead as they battled the blaze. Apparently he was out of jail, having served some time for killing a family member, and was still crazy.

He stated his favorite thing to do was "kill people."


SGG

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Wednesday, January 2, 2013 11:30 PM

FREMDFIRMA



What annoys me worst, SGG, is how they cannot seem to mentally grasp the concept of Pennies Now vs Dollars Later - the earlier you start helping someone get a grip, the better chance of them recovering completely, or at least finding a way to cope...
But the longer you let that fester the more dangerous it becomes.

It's a fools bargain, even from a purely financial perspective, so obviously there's another factor at work there, and it seems nothing more complex than simple malice, a failure of empathy.

-F

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Thursday, January 3, 2013 7:13 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

I think it displays quite firmly the inherent malice of our social priorities in that there's plenty of money to prosecute and incarcerate them, but no money to treat them despite it being a cheaper longterm solution.

There's just something very wrong with a society which will spend more money on vengeance over something which would have never occured if they'd spent a little less, a little earlier, on something other than hurting people.

-Frem



But then you run into the argument that the mentally ill have rights to refuse treatment if they choose, and so you can't just round them up and treat them, even if it seems to be for their own good. I know that in D.C., when the weather turns really cold, the social services folks can't even bring the homeless mentally ill in to warming stations without their consent. Some always end up dying because they refused help.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Thursday, January 3, 2013 7:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

they cannot seem to mentally grasp the concept of Pennies Now vs Dollars Later

Silly, silly Frem...that's how our ENTIRE SYSTEM works, isn't it?

As to how to deal with the mentally ill, the current problems in dealing with them could be solved if we worked on them. Obviously the system sucks, that's the whole point we've made over and over--so if you "keep on keeping on", it won't change. There are options besides rounding everyone up, and we should be trying to come up with THOSE, rather than saying "It doesn't work". We already KNOW it doesn't work as it exists now!

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Thursday, January 3, 2013 11:22 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
But then you run into the argument that the mentally ill have rights to refuse treatment if they choose, and so you can't just round them up and treat them, even if it seems to be for their own good. I know that in D.C., when the weather turns really cold, the social services folks can't even bring the homeless mentally ill in to warming stations without their consent. Some always end up dying because they refused help.


A lack of trust that social services behavior has all too often justified.
And THAT is something which cannot be fixed by mere soundbites and dumping money on the problem - Andrew Vachss has made a set of suggestions regarding that which I am wholly on board with.

-F

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Friday, January 4, 2013 4:23 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Andrew Vachss has made a set of suggestions regarding that which I am wholly on board with.

-F



And they are? Googling 'andrew vachss mental health' gets so much to wade through I can't find such a set of suggestions in all the dross.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Friday, January 4, 2013 6:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I would be interested in that, too.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Friday, January 4, 2013 10:21 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


So crime is crime... unless it's terrorism? Or unless the State Department and/or the White House comes out immediately and CALLS it terrorism?



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Friday, January 4, 2013 11:56 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
So crime is crime... unless it's terrorism? Or unless the State Department and/or the White House comes out immediately and CALLS it terrorism?


I think that the crime vs. terrorism goes to intent rather then the act. Often the same act can fall into multiple catagories.

An example of a crime was John Brown's Raid (tresspass, murder, theft of property, etc). It was also terrorism (attempted insurrection).

The Japanese Attack on Pearl Harbor comprised a number of crimes such as murder, assault, vandalism, discharging a firearm, tresspass, a couple hundred counts of illegal immigration, etc. It was also a military act and an act of war (a political act)...but it was not terrorism.

The American Assanation of Admiral Yamamoto was a military act following a formal declaration of war, but it was also a war crime because it violated the rules and conventions governing the conduct of wars. It was not, however, a crime in the tradtitional sense.

The 9/11 attacks were both crimes (because they broke various laws) and terrorism, because of the intent and nature of the attacks.

The Raid on Waco (the initial one were all the cops got shot) was a crime (by the Davidians) but not terror.

The Raid on Waco (that killed everybody) was an act of terrorism (again by the Davidians...or at least one of them).


It goes on and on. Something can be a crime, an act of war, an act of terror, a political act, or some combonation of all those things.

I think you have to examine each one seperately and also consider history and who won and who the victim is (which can change even within the same act).

The Raid on Bin Ladden fits all the halmarks of crime, war, and terror but somehow is none of those things. It broke international law, Pakistani law, and was an act of war (and terror) against Pakistan. It was none of those things against Bin Ladden or any of the others killed in the attack.

Ultimately the winners write the history. That means if I win and I decide that what I did to win was not terrorism or what you were doing was terrorism...then that is what terrorism is.

H


Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Friday, January 4, 2013 2:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
And they are? Googling 'andrew vachss mental health' gets so much to wade through I can't find such a set of suggestions in all the dross.


I'll get them, but it'll take a bit since I happen to be a little blitzed at the moment and my google-fu is suffering for it.
I do recall increasing training and accountability was a large part of it, as was the Guardian Ad Litem concept - although he doesn't like the idea of civvie volunteers doing that work as they lack the skills and various legal armament that actual lawyers do, I kind of agree, but a volunteer is better than NOTHING - and of course, the $$$ to pay for it.

-F

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Saturday, January 5, 2013 9:11 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Here's the essential core, took a bit to dig this one up though.
http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9006_a.html
This works from a mental health perspective as well, since a core component of a LOT of mental health issues is abuse, although not always - sometimes you can also be dealing with a kid who has issues and a parent who is overwhelmed and stuggling to cope, and backing their play with resources and education instead of kicking them in the face with the Jackboot of the State (like what happened to Maryanne Godboldo) is a much better way to go about it.

-F

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