Did Spike Ever Love Buffy Prior to Season 7 ? by Angeldove

BUFFYVERSE

Did Spike Ever Love Buffy Prior to Season 7 ?

POSTED BY: ANGELDOVE
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 10:51
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VIEWED: 4529
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Friday, June 4, 2004 7:30 PM

OK, so, I've always had this problem with the fact that Spike (no soul) and William the Poet (with soul), seem like pretty much the same person...not like Angel/Angelus. Except for a few exceptions that I will note below:

So, I'm reading that book, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Philosophy...Fear and Trembling in Sunnydale" yeah, probably my first mistake. Actually I am enjoying it, some you will agree with some you will not, other parts you will groan with the way-over-analyzed-I-doubt-they-were-thinking-about-that-when-they-wrote-it, silliness. But one area I did find interesting was about he Aristotelian Framework of Friendship and Love. A quick over view for all of you who actually have lives...
Utility Friendship - based on mutual benefit, like co-workers or soldiers Riley
Pleasure Friendship - based on mutual enjoyment, regardless or not of whether either party is beneficial to the other.Spike
Complete Friendship - combines utility and pleasure, each values the other for his or her own sake. Each is willing to sacrifice their own happiness for the others sake Angel

I'm only going to talk about Spike and why I believe that he fits the Pleasure Friendship model up until he receives his soul, through the following examples, Understand, that the reason I pick these examples, is because they always bothered me, as I couldn't understand how a demon, who should have been like Angelus, regardless of a chip, would react in the following ways:

Spike not betraying Dawn's secret when being tortured by Glory - this one is fairly strait forward, he knew if he did he would never get Buffy, she would never be his to posses, and so did not do it for Dawn but for Buffy instead which he pretty much tells her when she comes to ask him.

Spike grieves for Buffy upon her death - I believe this falls in line with why most people grieve at the loss of a loved one, we tend to think about how much we will miss them in our lives, more than about the life they will miss out on. He was thinking about the loss to his happiness.

I know we have another thread dedicated to whether or not Spike went to get a soul or to have his chip removed, but I believe in the second episode of season 7, it is made clear he did go to get a soul and that he did it so he could have her again. In his attempt to possess her, and the happiness he felt when he had her in the past. He just didn't seem to know what he was getting into. But would a demon truely make this choice? We know that Angelus was offered his soul back by Jenny and he respectfully declined by breaking her neck.

Why did Spike agree to protect Dawn with his life at the end of Season 5, "Because I made a promise to a lady', Spike said. That lady being Buffy of course. Then it wasn't about Dawn, it was about making Buffy happy for his own gain in the end.

The writers purposely threw two incidents at us to remind us that Spike was an evil guy, the attempted rape of course, and the Riley episode with Spike as The Doctor, in which he says to her "you know what I am" when she is upset that he would do such a thing

When Spike finds out that Buffy is alive, he is of course very happy. But, he says that they didn't tell him they were going to do it because they knew she might come back wrong, and he wouldn't let them kill her again. Seems all romantic until you think, would Buffy want to be some kind of Zombie? Then you remember back to when Dawn tried to bring back her Mother in her grief over her death, but in fear that she may 'come back wrong' destroys her chance of bringing her back at all.

Other areas of interest:
Spike crying outside of Buffy's house after finding out she is now alive, bring flowers to leave for Buffy that don't have a card, When Spike tells Buffy, 'I know I am a monster, but you treat me like a man', and seems to not be trying to get into her pants at that moment...I have some thoughts on these, but nothing close to conclusive.

So, is anyone up for some philosophy?.... that is if you can get through the length of this post.

There is always the thought that the demon you turn into is in ratio to the man you were before,
Liam was a drunkin', whorein', abusive man.
William was a sensitive poet. Could this be why there is such a difference of extremes?

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." --Joss

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Friday, June 4, 2004 9:55 PM

SUCCATASH

Without a soul, can there be love?

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Saturday, June 5, 2004 4:28 AM

DARKJESTER

I'm not sure he LOVED her, but he was certainly obsessed with her. I'm sure part of it, at least early on, was just for comic relief (Spike having Harmony pretend to be Buffy for sex play, etc.)
And the comparison between the men that William and Angel were before they were turned seems to ring true. Angelus could continue the "fun-loving" ways he enjoyed as a human, only turned up several notches. Spike could act upon the anger he had after all the rejection he received as William. Similar actions resulted, but because of different motivations. Angelus enjoyed the terrorizing and killing because it felt good, and it appealed to his basest, animal self. Spike enjoyed the same because it was revenge on everyone who laughed at him, and helped to temporarily relieve his feelings of inadequacy.

Then again, it's just a TV show......

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

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Saturday, June 5, 2004 8:35 AM

CAPTAINCDC

Quote:
There is always the thought that the demon you turn into is in ratio to the man you were before,
Liam was a drunkin', whorein', abusive man.
William was a sensitive poet. Could this be why there is such a difference of extremes?

I think the above plays a large part in shaping what kind of demon you will be once you are turned. Look at Spike's mother. He loved her with all his heart. He hated to see her suffer and wanted her to live forever with him and Dru. What he didn't count on was all of the anger and loathing that she had felt deep within her soul. When he turned her, all of that came spewing out much like the anger and revenge he felt compelled to take out on all of those that had ridiculed him all his life. There was also a vampire that Spike and Dru recruited to help them do research (I think on the Judge) back in the second season. This vampire was basically Giles or Wesley. He was a bookworm with glasses. Not especially violent, just wanting to be on a winning side and to not be killed by Spike.

Having said that, I think if the Initiative had not put the chip in his head we would not see the Spike that we have today. I see the chip as an artificial soul. Not as good as the real thing, but better than nothing at all. When he was neutered his violent nature had to take a backseat to his human nature, or (to keep the driving metaphor going) at least share the front seat. He tried to be like the Big Bad vamp he had been and he also tried to fit in with the scooby gang but neither would accept him. Adam said in season four that vampires were a paradox. Part demon and part human they tried to walk in both worlds but belonged to neither. When Spike had the chip put in, it amplified this effect of not belonging, of not being accepted. Remember, Spike had the heart of a poet (even if a bad poet) and this hurt him badly. He was thrown into close quarters with the slayer for most of season 4, and I think this was when he started to have feelings for the slayer, even if it was buried beneath the surface. Because, it wasn't long into season 5 that his attraction to Buffy began surfacing much to the horror of his demon self. Buffy still thought he was beneath her, which brought back all of the pain, humiliation, and anger from his human life. He reacted to this by offering a sacrifice to show his love for her. He offered to sacrifice the love of his life, Drusilla. Buffy scoffed at this saying that demons without souls were incapable of love. Which Dru was quick to tell her how wrong she was about that. Dru claimed that demons were capable of great unending love.

Spike continued to disgust Buffy. First, by kidnapping Riley's doctor to take the chip out of his head. Second, by having the Buffysexbot. But, when he almost sacrificed himself to protect Dawn in order to save Buffy grief, she started to treat him more like a man than a demon. Then when she comes back from the dead, Spike is the only one Buffy can confide in about where she really was while she was dead. Then the final piece fell into place when Spike realized that he could inflict pain upon Buffy instead of just taking whatever she wanted to do to him like a whipped little puppy dog. When this happened they were more on equal footing. And when you have a very adversarial relationship it can many times cause sexual feelings to surface. Look at Xander and Cordy before they hooked up. Spike loved Buffy, but Buffy was just trying to feel.....anything. She was uncomfortably numb. And she used Spike to help with that, but she still could not love him because she still saw him as being beneath her, a demon without a soul. When she severed their relationship and refused to be with him again, his frustration got the better of him and he tried to rape her. His human side was disgusted with himself, what he had tried to do to the woman he loved. He had to atone. He had to make it up to her and change in the process so that maybe she would be able to love him back. He went to get his soul back. I think it's a decision that THIS demon would and did make. Taking into account his human life and all that happened in his years in Sunnydale I think this was a logical next step for Spike to take, not necessarily any other demon, but the situation was right for Spike. He had nothing to lose. If he was killed during the test for his soul, no one would miss him and he would be put out of his miserable existence. But, if he was succesful then he would be the kind of man/demon that Buffy might could love. Sorry for the long winded nature of this post.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Saturday, June 5, 2004 10:07 AM

LINDEN

captaincdc,

What a great post! Some insights into the nature of the vampire Spike that hadn´t occured to me before and actually makes me understand his actions a little bit better.

Thanks for that!

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Saturday, June 5, 2004 3:30 PM

SERENITYVALLEY

James said that without telling anyone else, he always looked at Buffy liked he loved her ever since his first episode, even though it wasn't in the script. He did this because he thought there should be some admiration from Spike to Buffy. There's an interview somewhere.

http://www.simple-assault.com/Firefly.htm

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Saturday, June 5, 2004 3:39 PM

EVILMIKE

Quote:
Originally posted by captaincdc:
Quote:
I think the above plays a large part in shaping what kind of demon you will be once you are turned. Look at Spike's mother. He loved her with all his heart. He hated to see her suffer and wanted her to live forever with him and Dru. What he didn't count on was all of the anger and loathing that she had felt deep within her soul.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I rewatched this episiode recently. Look at Spike's mother's expression just before she turns to dust -- I'd swear that she's proud of Spike. Could all the taunting be because she was trying to help him be a man?

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Wednesday, June 9, 2004 11:56 AM

ANGELDOVE

Quote:
Originally posted by DarkJester:
And the comparison between the men that William and Angel were before they were turned seems to ring true.

I was just thinking about this, and remembered the fact that Angel drove Dru crazy before he sired her, and she remained crazy after she lost her soul. Wouldn't this also support the soul to lost soul theory?

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." --Joss

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Wednesday, July 28, 2004 10:51 AM

DYSTOPIA

Quote:
Originally posted by Angeldove:
Quote:
Originally posted by DarkJester:
And the comparison between the men that William and Angel were before they were turned seems to ring true.

I was just thinking about this, and remembered the fact that Angel drove Dru crazy before he sired her, and she remained crazy after she lost her soul. Wouldn't this also support the soul to lost soul theory?

Angelus drove Drusilla crazy because she was psychic. Darla showed Dru to him and he thought she was a saint, but Darla corrects him and tells him she has the sight. Drusilla was religious and her mother told her that her visions were the work of the devil, Angelus continued this assualt on Drusilla's sanity by posing as a priest and abhoring her as a child of the Devil. On the day Drusilla was meant to take her sacrements as a nun, Angelus turned her. Drusilla didn't remain crazy after she became a vampire, the demon exploited her visions and she teeters on the edge of sanity.

In conclusion, Dru was just allowed to become more crazy because she didn't have any of those pesky moral values anymore...

"When you can't walk, you crawl and when you can't do that, you find someone to carry you."
--The Message

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