REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

UKRAINE'S BLOODIEST DAY: YET TO COME

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Sunday, March 2, 2014 01:12
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Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:52 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


As I've been saying for many posts now, Yanukovych has support. He is in the Russian-speaking southeast of the Ukraine, rounding up support. Civil war may be the next step. The Ukraine may be split in two. I think this was the goal of the west all along.

Leaked American phone call, picking and choosing among future Ukrainian leaders:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/feb/07/eu-us-diplomat-vict
oria-nuland-phonecall-leaked-video



Detailed analysis. "Klitschko... his residence is in Germany. He pays taxes in Germany. He represents German interests" (18:35)
http://therealnews.com/t2/component/hwdvideoshare/viewvideo/77461?utm_
source=Email+Subscribers&utm_campaign=4376113beb-140222_Venezuela_Protests&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_44bc741bc4-4376113beb-80946065&goal=0_44bc741bc4-4376113beb-80946065


So now the question is: Will Russia get involved militarily? Will NATO?

-----------------

For context, this is most like the conflict between Georgia and S Ossetia. Russians invaded Georgia, and there was a huge discussion on this board as to "who started it". The western press widely reported that it was an unprovoked invasion. But when the facts came out (many months later) it turns out that Georgia had fired missiles into S Ossetia first.

As you may recall, McCain cosied up to the Georgians then too, before the violence. Let's see... McCain cozied up to Georgian aggressors, to Al Qaida in Syria, and to the neo-Nazi opposition leader Tahyanybok in the Ukraine. Three strikes, you're out?

McCain and Tahyanybok (right)



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Saturday, February 22, 2014 3:45 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Siggy, I already posted the leaked call prettymuch in it's entirety here.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57545&mid=9
63683#963683


Pretty damning stuff, actually - and once again using our embassy as a C3 center in an attempt to topple the Gov of the country it is in, which worked out SOOOO WELL in Libya, which is still, quite noticeably, a clusterfuck.

Not to mention doin that kinda revokes any diplomatic protections or niceties and tends to encourage the locals to sack the damn place - which'd of course lead to more rightwingnuts screaming a fit, just like any other bully does when some would-be victim kicks em in the balls.

Basically, what happened in Libya, all over again, cause the neocons (who this whole push is sponsored by) never once fail to double down on stupid.

IMHO, Nuland and Pyatt should be immediately recalled, stripped of their positions and thrown in prison to await trial for these crimes.

-Frem

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Saturday, February 22, 2014 8:16 PM

WHOZIT


Um...Barry is the Prez right? This mess is his right? Why you libs bringing McCain into this? Ya don't want Barrry or his whores any where near this? Barry has nothing to do this?

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Saturday, February 22, 2014 9:19 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
b
Um...Barry is the Prez right? This mess is his right? Why you libs bringing McCain into this? Ya don't want Barrry or his whores any where near this? Barry has nothing to do this?


Whether it's the IRS, the Justice Dept., the State Dept., the HHS Obamacare squad, or anyone else in his administration, Obama has no knowledge whatsoever of anything going on. He's the most isolated and insulated man since the Teflon Don, John Gotti. But unlike Gotti, Obama's never late for his tee time, and he always wears a safety helmet when riding his bicycle.

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Saturday, February 22, 2014 10:05 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh, this is definitely Obama's mess. Syria, Libya, and the Ukraine should be laid at his feet. (And for all you pro-Obama liberals out there, you should look really long and hard at what Obama's been doing, and stop listening to his weasel-words. Obama's a neo-con.)

It's just amazing to me that McCain has had, over the years, such an unerring nose for assholes with which to have a photo-op.


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Sunday, February 23, 2014 8:27 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Civil war may be the next step. The Ukraine may be split in two. I think this was the goal of the west all along.



So how does a civil war in Ukraine benefit the evil "West"? Seems like it would benefit Russia more, as that would give them an excuse to intervene militarily, and either put a puppet regime in place or intimidate the population into toeing the Russian line. They did it before in Georgia.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, February 23, 2014 8:31 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY


I know some of you baulk at the sight of the word "Socialist", and this is a few days old now, but it is a good background perspective and worth reading;

http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/6666

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Sunday, February 23, 2014 9:15 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
I know some of you baulk at the sight of the word "Socialist", and this is a few days old now, but it is a good background perspective and worth reading;

http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/6666



Once you get past the "imperialists", "oligarchs", "workers must rise" and such, it is pretty interesting.

Strangely enough, the "Rioters supported by the West" meme doesn't come up.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, February 23, 2014 10:57 AM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Oh, this is definitely Obama's mess. Syria, Libya, and the Ukraine should be laid at his feet. (And for all you pro-Obama liberals out there, you should look really long and hard at what Obama's been doing, and stop listening to his weasel-words. Obama's a neo-con.)

It's just amazing to me that McCain has had, over the years, such an unerring nose for assholes with which to have a photo-op.




The fact is we're in year 6 of Barry's rule, not year 13 of Bush's. Clinton and Kerry are the ones to be pointing fingers at.

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Sunday, February 23, 2014 11:13 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Clinton and Kerry are the ones to be pointing fingers at.
Perhaps you don't know how to read? I did that, in this thread. Scroll up, I'm sure you'll find it. Or maybe you won't, it's a little hard to tell about your capabilities sometimes!

Also, it IS possible to talk about more than one person in a thread! I talked about Obama. I talked about McCain. Just because I talked about McCain doesn't make my criticism of Obama any less true.

McCain was mentioned in a different context- not as Commander in Chief with an 6-year history of (NOTE TO LIBERALS) wantonly destroying nations, but as Senator with a 7-year history of photobombing unsavory people. The fact that he's managed to photo-op with truly terrible people so unerringly is just... remarkable. So I remarked on it.


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Sunday, February 23, 2014 11:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

So how does a civil war in Ukraine benefit the evil "West"? Seems like it would benefit Russia more, as that would give them an excuse to intervene militarily, and either put a puppet regime in place or intimidate the population into toeing the Russian line. They did it before in Georgia.
Geezer, take a deep cleansing breath. You've been brainwashed so heavily that you've stopped noticing that you've been wrong multiple times, due to sheer mental editing of events. (IIRC, you were one of those claiming that the Russians invaded Georgia without cause, when in fact the Georgians had fired missiles into S Ossetia.)

The Russians already HAD a friendly government in place- that was Yanukovych.

Let me reel this back a bit, for context: The Ukraine is divided into two- a Russian-speaking southeast which is characterized by steppes, and a Ukrainain-speaking northwest characterized by forests (a portion of which was formerly Poland).
Quote:

The official language of Ukraine is Ukrainian, an East Slavic language which is the native language of 65% of Ukraine's population. Russian is the native language of 33% of Ukraine's population and the rest (2%) are native speakers of other languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Ukraine

Yanukovich is a Russian-speaking Ukrainian. He was elected in 2009 with 49% of the vote. (Elections in multi-party countries such as the Ukraine are characterized by candidates with less than 50%). Many people who voted for Yanukovych did so in order to keep Yulia Tymoshenko (she of the braided hair) out of power because it was she- an opposition figure- who had signed a disastrously expensive gas deal with Putin.

Fast forward a few years. Tymoshenko (the braided lady) is now in disgrace. Yanukovych is faced with two options: (1) joining the EU, which insists that the join be exclusive, or (2) signing a trade pact with Putin, who is willing to let the Ukraine trade with both economic blocs. (PLEASE NOTE that it was Putin who was willing to give Ukraine trading freedom, NOT the EU.) Yanukovych dithers, playing one side against the other. The EU is willing to offer nothing to the Ukraine in terms of concessions - no help in discharging its debt, just Greek-style austerity. Russia is ready to sweeten the deal with lower gas prices and an immediate $15 billion cash-on-the-barrel bond purchase. Not too surprisingly, Yanukovych signs a deal wtih Russia.

Given all that.. how could Russia possibly benefit from a coup in the Ukraine? If the west hadn't supported the opposition with money, PR, and political cover, and if the coup had not occurred, Russia would have had a deal with the Ukraine. And the EU - by it's own terms- would have been frozen out of economic dealings with that nation.

With the event of the coup, the deal with Russia is broken, and the EU stands a chance of pulling at least half of the Ukraine into its orbit.

What you say, and (more importantly) what you think just doesn't make sense. I know that in YOUR mind authentic support for Russia just doesn't exist... that any Russian-leaning views don't occur, or -if they do- aren't legitimate. But that's a huge blind spot- people are genuinely patriotic, Russian-leaning, and socialist. It's fact that doesn't compute with you, but it's a fact nonetheless. Once you accept that it occurs, you'll be able to understand more clearly and predict more accurately. Yanukovych had support. He was voted in. More importantly, a significant minority... that same 35% that I keep referring to over and over again... doesn't want to "face west". When deciding the fate of a nation, that minority's interests should be taken into account, or there will be persistent dispute.

Quote:

Strangely enough, the "Rioters supported by the West" meme doesn't come up.
Funny, because there are pictures of it... German and Polish politicians speaking in the Maidan, European politicians handing out cookies and coffee, McCain infamously photo-opping. American diplomatic phone calls picking and choosing winners in the new government.

CRITICAL THINKING: Learn to use it.


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Sunday, February 23, 2014 12:21 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


So I just wanted to throw this in the mix. Geezer et al seem to want to be seen as pro FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY. but apparently free and fair democratic elections aren't good enough for them. They are quite happy to see free and fair democratic elections overturned by force to get a political party in power THEY like.


Yanukovych set to become president as observers say Ukraine election was fair
• Yulia Tymoshenko under pressure to concede defeat
• Monitors praise 'impressive display' of democracy

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/08/viktor-yanukovych-ukraine
-president-election


Ukraine's prime minister, Yulia Tymoshenko, was today under pressure to concede defeat in the country's presidential election after international observers this afternoon hailed yesterday's poll as fair and "truly competitive".

Observers from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) said there were no indications of serious fraud and described the vote as an "impressive display" of democracy. "For everyone in Ukraine this election was a victory," João Soares, president of the OSCE's parliamentary assembly, said.

(For the record, the US doesn't allow international observers to watch or rate its elections.)

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Sunday, February 23, 2014 12:28 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Yes, now Ukrainians can have "democracy" (which they already had in 2009).


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Sunday, February 23, 2014 3:13 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
(IIRC, you were one of those claiming that the Russians invaded Georgia without cause, when in fact the Georgians had fired missiles into S Ossetia.)



You didn't go back far enough.

"The 1991–92 South Ossetia War between ethnic Georgians and Ossetians had left slightly more than a half of South Ossetia under de facto control of a Russian-backed, internationally unrecognised government.[52][53]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war

Quote:

The Russians already HAD a friendly government in place- that was Yanukovych.

Let me reel this back a bit, for context: The Ukraine is divided into two- a Russian-speaking southeast which is characterized by steppes, and a Ukrainain-speaking northwest characterized by forests (a portion of which was formerly Poland).
Quote:

The official language of Ukraine is Ukrainian, an East Slavic language which is the native language of 65% of Ukraine's population. Russian is the native language of 33% of Ukraine's population and the rest (2%) are native speakers of other languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Ukraine

Yanukovich is a Russian-speaking Ukrainian. He was elected in 2009 with 49% of the vote. (Elections in multi-party countries such as the Ukraine are characterized by candidates with less than 50%). Many people who voted for Yanukovych did so in order to keep Yulia Tymoshenko (she of the braided hair) out of power because it was she- an opposition figure- who had signed a disastrously expensive gas deal with Putin.

Fast forward a few years. Tymoshenko (the braided lady) is now in disgrace. Yanukovych is faced with two options: (1) joining the EU, which insists that the join be exclusive, or (2) signing a trade pact with Putin, who is willing to let the Ukraine trade with both economic blocs. (PLEASE NOTE that it was Putin who was willing to give Ukraine trading freedom, NOT the EU.) Yanukovych dithers, playing one side against the other. The EU is willing to offer nothing to the Ukraine in terms of concessions - no help in discharging its debt, just Greek-style austerity. Russia is ready to sweeten the deal with lower gas prices and an immediate $15 billion cash-on-the-barrel bond purchase. Not too surprisingly, Yanukovych signs a deal wtih Russia.

Given all that.. how could Russia possibly benefit from a coup in the Ukraine? If the west hadn't supported the opposition with money, PR, and political cover, and if the coup had not occurred, Russia would have had a deal with the Ukraine. And the EU - by it's own terms- would have been frozen out of economic dealings with that nation.



Interestingly enough, the Socialist World article OED posted gives a somewhat different take on this.

For example:

Quote:

Yanukovich is usually seen as pro-Russian but, since his return to power in 2010, he has been pragmatic in his relations between the powers. His first visit was to Brussels, where he confirmed that Ukraine would remain as part of Nato’s outreach programme. Shortly after, he visited Moscow, where he promised to restore previous good relations. He resisted, however, any attempts by Vladimir Putin to recruit Ukraine to the Eurasian customs union of Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan. Until December’s shock decision, it seemed that Yanukovich was enthusiastic about the EU’s association agreement.

As the date for signing it came closer, Russia stepped up its restrictions on trade. Trade volume between the two countries fell by 11% in 2012 ($45bn) and by a further 15% in 2013. The trade volume between Ukraine and the EU is about the same but, given the state of the EU economy, it has not been able to increase its trade to make up for the loss from Russia. The €1.8 billion aid over ten years offered by the EU to compensate for such losses was clearly nowhere near adequate. In addition, Russia uses the gas pipelines crossing Ukraine as a further



Or are the Socialists pushing capitalist propaganda as well?




"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, February 23, 2014 5:19 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"The 1991–92 South Ossetia War between ethnic Georgians and Ossetians had left slightly more than a half of South Ossetia under de facto control of a Russian-backed, internationally unrecognised government."

That leaves the war completely unexplained. What was it about? Who started it? What was the result? Fortunately, wiki contains a link ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991%E2%80%9392_South_Ossetia_War ... And if you're tedious enough to read through it, what you find is that the ruling government of Georgia instigated a civil war with its own province South Ossetia, but that South Ossetia fought successfully for its independence from Georgia. The international community, nervous about uppity regions catching the independence bug, refused to recognize the South Ossetian government. Hence, the 'unrecognized government'.
The 1991–1992 South Ossetian War was fought between Georgian government forces and ethnic Georgian militia on one side, and the forces of South Ossetia and ethnic Ossetian militia who wanted South Ossetia to secede from Georgia and become an independent state, supported by individual Russian troops (uncited), on the other.
In other words, it was largely a civil war where (presumably) individual Russian troops joined in.
In 1989, around 98,000 people lived in South Ossetia. Of these, 66.61% (2/3) were Ossetian and 29.44% (less than 1/3) Georgian.
So, South Ossetia, with a vast majority of South Ossetians, was a province of Georgia. After the fall of the Soviet Union, as happened in many former areas of the USSR, there were many internal political and physical conflicts, in this case between South Ossetians and Georgians. When it comes to "who started it"
... The Georgians made three assaults on Tskhinvali, in February and March 1991 and in June, 1992.
But even though the national government of Georgia started it, the war went badly for the Georgian army. On top of that, other areas of Georgia started to arm and organize themselves. And so ...
As a result, Shevardnadze had an interest in ending the conflict in South Ossetia and signed the Russian-brokered Sochi agreement. The ceasefire agreement left South Ossetia divided into areas controlled by Georgia and areas controlled by the unrecognised government of South Ossetia. It also created the Joint Control Commission and, under JCC mandate, introduced the joint peacekeeping forces, made up of Georgian, Russian and Ossetian soldiers. A small number of Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe monitors was also deployed in the area.



"Or are the Socialists pushing capitalist propaganda as well?"

You must be counting on people not being tedious enough to click on your link and read from the beginning all the way to the end. WAY TO GO with the selective quoting! What the article concludes really is this:
There is no solution to the problems faced by the Ukrainian population on the basis of the policies proposed by politicians such as Yanukovich or Klitschko, or by joining Russia’s customs union ... or the EU. The only way out is to fight for the establishment of a strong, united workers’ movement ... that can take political power. It would need to establish a socialist economy based on the public ownership of industry, banking and natural resources democratically planned by working people, in a united and independent socialist Ukraine as part of a wider federation of socialist states. .
That sounds strangely anti-capitalist to me.

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Monday, February 24, 2014 10:55 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

"The 1991–1992 South Ossetian War was fought between Georgian government forces and ethnic Georgian militia on one side, and the forces of South Ossetia and ethnic Ossetian militia who wanted South Ossetia to secede from Georgia and become an independent state, supported by individual Russian troops (uncited), on the other.
In other words, it was largely a civil war where (presumably) individual Russian troops joined in.



Yeah. The Russian soldiers took their summer vacation to fight in Ossetia. Right.

Besides, you left a bit out, didn't you?

Or should I say "WAY TO GO with the selective quoting"?

Quote:

Most of their equipment and arms were former Soviet arms abandoned following the break-up of the Soviet Union. Former Georgian president, Eduard Shevardnadze, accused Russia of military involvement in the conflict. At the same time, the Ossetians claimed that Russian military and police failed to protect the local civilian population during Georgian attacks on Tskhinvali and surrounding Ossetian villages.[6] The Georgian side claimed there was overt help from military units of the Russian Federation.[1]



Quote:

"Or are the Socialists pushing capitalist propaganda as well?"

You must be counting on people not being tedious enough to click on your link and read from the beginning all the way to the end.



What do their socialist goals have to do with the fact they pretty much refuted all SignyM's claims that the West was trying to monopolize Ukraine's business and the Russians were just friendly helpers?

Of course, expecting you to stick to the point is like trying to sculpt clouds.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, February 24, 2014 11:25 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

What do their socialist goals have to do with the fact they pretty much refuted all SignyM's claims that the West was trying to monopolize Ukraine's business and the Russians were just friendly helpers?
You can find all kinds of silly arguments on the internet. The trick is to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. The EU and the USA were very clearly involved in Ukraine's affairs. There are pictures of western officials making speeches to the rioters, handing out coffee and cookies, there are recordings of USA officials picking and choosing the preferred winners, there is the obvious bias in the western media, there are documented proposals and contracts by both the EU and Russia. Clearly, THE WEST WAS INVOLVED IN THE COUP. And yes- IT WAS A COUP. It's been documented and recorded and photographed and is visible to anyone who isn't trying to deny events.

So quite frankly, I don't care what that source says. The reality is that the West is trying to monopolize Ukraine's business.... it was documented in the EU's conditions for joining ... and the USA is probably trying to remove or netrualize the Russian naval base in the Ukraine.

As far as the Russians being friendly helpers, Russian diplomats and politicians were notably absent from the event and silent in their assessments. No speeches in the Crimea, or demonstrations in Sevostopol. When weighed on an even scale (which you will never do, of course) the west was clearly the aggressor in this case, breaking diplomatic protocol and promoting a coup to overthrow a democratically elected government... one elected freely and fairly, and one which was either going to be re-elected or thrown out of office next year.

BY way of comparison, and as a demonstration to you (and others) of the instability of your own opinions: Do you recall when the military took over Honduras because the wildly popular then-President, Manuel Zalaya, wanted to hold a non-binding poll to see whether he could run for a third term (not sanctioned by their Constitution)? Do you recall how your knickers got in such a twist because of the possibilty of a potential violation of Consitutional rules?

Well, would you please apply that same procedural rigor and desire for Constitutional stability to what's going on in the Ukraine? Or are you going to be just as one-sided now as you've always been?

That's OK, I already know the answer to that one!


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Monday, February 24, 2014 11:48 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Geezer

Just b/c one person CLAIMED there was help from the Russians doesn't make it true.

You DO know the difference between a claim and a fact, or between your opinion and a fact --- right? You DO know what a fact is --- right?

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Monday, February 24, 2014 11:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


No Geezer doesn't know the difference between a fact and a claim. But given his strong biases, he'll choose claims over facts any day, if it matches his opinions.

Meanwhile - little-known fact: the Rada, or Ukrainian Parliament, has been passing laws with approximately 100 of its members missing. Those members represent the Russophones, who felt sufficiently threatened to leave. The Rada is passing laws to make speaking Russian illegal. So much for national consensus!


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Monday, February 24, 2014 12:48 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Looking at every post, how much did Geezer post that was either unverified, slanted, or flat-out wrong:

This entire post misrepresents the FACT that the Georgian government - of its own volition - initially attacked its own province in the first strike of a civil war in Georgia - which it then went on to LOSE in humiliating fashion, allowing areas of South Ossetia to have their freedom. Maybe Georgia should have left things alone.
So how does a civil war in Ukraine benefit the evil "West"? Seems like it would benefit Russia more, as that would give them an excuse to intervene militarily, and either put a puppet regime in place or intimidate the population into toeing the Russian line. They did it before in Georgia.


This post tries to claim that because information wasn't found in one source it's not fact - despite the fact the information was well and repeatedly documented in many other sources over time.
Strangely enough, the "Rioters supported by the West" meme doesn't come up.


This quote incompletely addresses the topic of Georgia (again) and cherry picks facts, and quotes.
"The 1991–92 South Ossetia War between ethnic Georgians and Ossetians had left slightly more than a half of South Ossetia under de facto control of a Russian-backed, internationally unrecognised government.[52][53]"


This quote tries to elevate personal opinion into fact.
Yeah. The Russian soldiers took their summer vacation to fight in Ossetia. Right.


This one is simply wrong, as I did include the relevant fact in my post,
Besides, you left a bit out, didn't you?


This is wrong because he ignores multiple reports from multiple sources about the facts. He is also confused about his claim a single article 'refutes' multiple sources.
What do their socialist goals have to do with the fact they pretty much refuted all SignyM's claims that the West was trying to monopolize Ukraine's business and the Russians were just friendly helpers?


I have to say, Geezer is an EXTREMELY PARTISAN - and completely dishonest - contributor to this discussion. Every single one of his posts is entirely misleading, cherry-picked, or wrong.

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Monday, February 24, 2014 11:16 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, one of the things that's really disturbing me is the motherfuckers the jackboot licking fascist lovers of the State Dept are backing in this.

Is the U.S. Backing Neo-Nazis in Ukraine?
http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/us-backing-neo-nazis-ukrai
ne?paging=off¤t_page=1

Quote:

One of the “Big Three” political parties behind the protests is the ultra-nationalist Svoboda, whose leader, Oleh Tyahnybok, has called for the liberation of his country from the “Muscovite-Jewish mafia.” After the 2010 conviction of the Nazi death camp guard John Demjanjuk for his supporting role in the death of nearly 30,000 people at the Sobibor camp, Tyahnybok rushed to Germany to declare him a hero who was “fighting for truth.” In the Ukrainian parliament, where Svoboda holds an unprecedented 37 seats, Tyahnybok’s deputy Yuriy Mykhalchyshyn is fond of quoting Joseph Goebbels – he has even founded a think tank originally called “the Joseph Goebbels Political Research Center.” According to Per Anders Rudling, a leading academic expert on European neo-fascism, the self-described “socialist nationalist” Mykhalchyshyn is the main link between Svoboda’s official wing and neo-Nazi militias like Right Sector.

Right Sector is a shadowy syndicate of self-described “autonomous nationalists” identified by their skinhead style of dress, ascetic lifestyle, and fascination with street violence. Armed with riot shields and clubs, the group’s cadres have manned the front lines of the Euromaidan battles this month, filling the air with their signature chant: “Ukraine above all!” In a recent Right Sector propaganda video [embedded at the bottom of this article], the group promised to fight “against degeneration and totalitarian liberalism, for traditional national morality and family values.” With Svoboda linked to a constellation of international neo-fascist parties through the Alliance of European National Movements, Right Sector is promising to lead its army of aimless, disillusioned young men on “a great European Reconquest.”

Svoboda’s openly pro-Nazi politics have not deterred Senator John McCain from addressing a EuroMaidan rally alongside Tyahnybok, nor did it prevent Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland from enjoying a friendly meeting with the Svoboda leader this February. Eager to fend off accusations of anti-Semitism, the Svoboda leader recently hosted the Israeli Ambassador to Ukraine. “I would like to ask Israelis to also respect our patriotic feelings,” Tyahnybok has remarked. “Probably each party in the [Israeli] Knesset is nationalist. With God’s help, let it be this way for us too.”

In a leaked phone conversation with Geoffrey Pyatt, the US ambassador to Ukraine, Nuland revealed her wish for Tyahnybok to remain “on the outside,” but to consult with the US’s replacement for Yanukovich, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, “four times a week.” At a December 5, 2013 US-Ukraine Foundation Conference, Nuland boasted that the US had invested $5 billion to "build democratic skills and institutions" in Ukraine, though she did not offer any details.



And that comment wasn't hyperbole or rhetoric, when you look at the bastards we've propped up over the years, the evidence is undeniable.

-F

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Thursday, February 27, 2014 9:49 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


This "color revolution" was fomented by the USA and the EU, and likely timed to coincide with the Olympics, when Putin was otherwise engaged. It looks like the USA got its pick ("Yats"), as opposed to who the Germans wanted ("Klitch"). However, Yats now has to deal with the violent far-right, ultra-nationalists and neo-nazis that were used to spearhead the coup. Those groups are self-trained, experienced street fighters with guns, and Yats was not the outcome they were looking for.

In the meantime, Yats is now telling his fellow Ukrainians that in return for IMF loans, Ukraine now has to follow Greek-style austerity. So good luck with that!

Things are going so well in the Ukraine that the news is silent about the fact that the Crimean Parliament has been taken over by armed pro-Russians. As predicted, Crimea, which not only contains the port that the Russians leased from the Ukraine but is also Russian-speaking and is home to many Russian citizens, looks like it wants to break away. And I say, let them! To each his own!

But the USA is not likely to take that stand, and Russia is not likely to let this go. A shooting war is a distinct possibility.

The Ukraine was due for elections in 2015. That's only next year. What was the urgent urgency that we had to break Ukraine? Why couldn't we have let them resolve their problems internally?

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Thursday, February 27, 2014 10:09 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


And, for you presumed libertarians out there....

Ron Paul: Leave Ukraine alone!
Quote:

...The usual interventionists in the US have long meddled in the internal affairs of Ukraine. In 2004 it was US government money that helped finance the Orange Revolution, as US-funded NGOs favoring one political group over the other were able to change the regime. These same people have not given up on Ukraine. They keep pushing their own agenda for Ukraine behind the scenes, even as they ridicule anyone who claims US involvement.

http://rt.com/op-edge/leave-ukraine-alone-501/

YOU WILL NOTE, GEEZER, that this is from RT. I've said before that Ron Paul is on RT more often than in the USA media, and by god... here he is!


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Friday, February 28, 2014 2:26 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Fucking hell, it's the Contras all over again, really.

What Happened in Ukraine Was a Presidential Coup, Pure and Simple
http://www.alternet.org/world/what-happened-ukraine-was-presidential-c
oup-pure-and-simple?paging=off¤t_page=1

Quote:

Reasonable people can disagree about whether the EU was driving too hard a bargain or whether Ukraine should undertake such painful economic “reforms” – or how Yanukovych should have balanced the interests of his divided country, with the east dominated by ethnic Russians and the west leaning toward Europe.

But protesters from western Ukraine, including far-right nationalists, sought to turn this policy dispute into a means for overthrowing the elected government. Police efforts to quell the disturbances turned violent, with the police not the only culprits. Police faced armed neo-Nazi storm troopers who attacked with firebombs and other weapons.

Though the U.S. news media did show scenes of these violent melees, the U.S. press almost universally blamed Yanukovych – and took almost gleeful pleasure as his elected government collapsed and was replaced by thuggish right-wing militias “guarding” government buildings.

With Yanukovych and many of his supporters fleeing for their lives, the opposition parties seized control of parliament and began passing draconian new laws often unanimously, as neo-Nazi thugs patrolled the scene. Amazingly, the U.S. news media treated all this as uplifting, a popular uprising against a tyrant, not a case of a coup government operating in collusion with violent extremists.

In the upside-down world that has become the U.S. news media, the democratically elected president was a dictator and the coup makers who overthrew the popularly chosen leader were “pro-democracy” activists.


Anyone wanna take bets on whether the Death Squads, Purges and Bloodbaths following this will crack the American Mainstream Media bullshit-wall ?

-F

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Friday, February 28, 2014 2:33 PM

OLDENGLANDDRY

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Friday, February 28, 2014 2:41 PM

OLDENGLANDDRY


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26379722

Russian transport aircraft are also reported to be on the ground in Crimea.

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Friday, February 28, 2014 8:18 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Ukraine Acting President Says Russia Has Invaded Ukraine, As 2000 Russian Troops, Military Jets Arrive

Quote:

Russia has sent "several hundred" troops into Ukraine's Crimea region, US defense officials said Friday, after Kiev called on Moscow to withdraw its forces from the peninsula.
Hardly an invasion

Quote:

"It looks like they’ve moved several hundred troops there (into Crimea)," a senior defense official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told AFP.

The comments marked the first confirmation from President Barack Obama's administration that Russia had launched an incursion into Crimea. The Russians had not given the US government advance notice of the action or explained its intentions since the operation was launched, officials said. But Pentagon officials stressed Washington was focused on diplomacy, and there was no serious consideration being given to any US military action.

"It is now in the realm of diplomacy," said a second defense official, who asked not to be named. Officials also said they were not aware of any request from Ukraine for military assistance.



Hubby works with a number of expat Russians. Some are saying that the Russian consulate is handing out passports to all Russophones who want to leave for Russia. Maybe this is something like an evacuation?



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Friday, February 28, 2014 8:57 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



" After the Russian Army invaded the nation of Georgia, Senator Obama's reaction was one of indecision and moral equivalence, the kind of response that would only encourage Russia's Putin to invade Ukraine next . "

- Sarah Palin. October, 2008



Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Friday, February 28, 2014 9:29 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Uh oh! Looks like Putin has ignored stern warnings from President Bicycle Helmet and Secretary of State Ketchup Boy. Where's that fucking red line when you really need it? Zoiks!


Obama's Foreign Policy Team

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Saturday, March 1, 2014 9:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Rappy- pinning the USA reaction to the Russian invasion of Georgia (AFTER Georgia fired on S Ossetia) on SENATOR Obama was... well, what can I say? Fucking stupid. But then, that's what I've come to expect from you. Because, last I checked, George W Bush was President at the time.

Now, as far as I'm concerned, the best thing Obama could do is stay out of the Ukraine, the same way that he stayed out of Syria. There are several reasons for this:

1) We'd be backing the wrong side. There are a lot of parallels between Syria and the Ukraine, one of which is the presence of extremists on "our" side. In the case of Syria, it is al Qaida jihadists, in the case of Ukraine it is Nazis. (Nothing "neo" about them; they have a direct link to the Nazis of WWII). Even McCain's ill-advised photo-ops are the same.

2) It's an internal matter for the Ukraine, particularly as what happened was a coup against a democratically-elected government.

3) It involves Russia's border. The Russians aren't going to back down on this, and since we created an existential threat to Russia, unless we want to get into a nuclear war with Russia (WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT RUSSIAN SHIP AT CUBA IS CARRYING???) I think we should back off and let them have their secure border.


Obama is, no doubt, a dick. LIKE GW B BUSH, he starts crap that he doesn't think through. LIKE GWB, he's gotten SO used to invading and destroying nations at will he's failed to realize that he didn't bash a gopher with a shovel this time, he bashed a bear.

If you had any sense at all, you would be hoping and praying that Obama doesn't get goaded by people LIKE YOU into a shooting war with Russia because he's been stupid enough to care what people like you think; when he should just mentally shitcan you and your ilk.

But I expect that his military advisors are smarter than you, and are looking at that Russian ship off of Florida and nervously thinking that Washington DC is within (nuclear) missile range.

And, may I say again what an idiot you are? Just contemplate a missile falling short and landing on you. Then you would have some idea of how the average Russian feels, being ringed by NATO's nuclear missiles. We've goaded Russia for decades, and now we put them on a hair-trigger. Russia is not going to back down on this. Where is your sense of self-preservation? Are you a fucking moron??

Oh wait... no need to answer that.

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Saturday, March 1, 2014 10:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I'm sure you've seen the headlines by now, but just in case

Putin calls for use of troops in Ukraine
Simferopol, Ukraine (CNN) -- [Breaking News Update, 10:02 a.m. ET]

Quote:

(CNN) -- Russia's upper house of parliament voted Saturday to approve the use of military force in Ukraine. The vote was unanimous.

[Original Story, published 9:23 a.m. ET]

(CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin has asked the upper house of parliament for approval to send Russian troops into Ukraine's Crimea region to normalize the political situation there, the Kremlin said Saturday.

Due to the "extraordinary situation in Ukraine," Putin said, there are threats to the lives of Russian citizens and Russian military personnel based in the southern Crimean region. It comes on the same day that the new pro-Russian leader of Crimea, Sergey Aksyonov, asked Putin for help in maintaining peace in the Black Sea peninsula -- where Russia has a major naval base at Sevastopol.

International concerns are mounting that Moscow may intervene militarily in the crisis, despite warnings from the United States and other Western powers that it should respect Ukrainian sovereignty.


http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/europe/ukraine-politics/index.html
?hpt=hp_t1


Yanno, I know that lives were lost, but more than anything it's our fucking hypocrisy that galls me. We go around ruining nations, and then we wonder why so many people hate us. Jeezus chrissus, are we all fucking morons???


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Saturday, March 1, 2014 11:00 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:



Rappy- pinning the USA reaction to the Russian invasion of Georgia (AFTER Georgia fired on S Ossetia) on SENATOR Obama was... well, what can I say? Fucking stupid. But then, that's what I've come to expect from you. Because, last I checked, George W Bush was President at the time.



You're missing the point, ENTIRELY ! Palin predicted this would happen, and sure enough. - WHAM ! It did.

Quote:



Now, as far as I'm concerned, the best thing Obama could do is stay out of the Ukraine, the same way that he stayed out of Syria. There are several reasons for this:



Yeah, but he's drawing a line in the sand, yet again. If you're going to talk big, then act big. IF not , stay the hell out of the kitchen.

So, just be clear, we've had the 3AM call ( Benghazi ) where both Obama and Hillary ran and hid. Not 1 arrest has been made. Save for the guy who made the YouTube vid, which had zero to do w/ the 9-11 attack in Libya.

Now we've had the Ukraine stuff go down, as that so called " Caribou Barbie " called it, so long ago.

Bush was on his way out when the Georgian conflict arose, in August of '08. The world was looking more towards McCain and Obama to get an idea of who would be leading the country for the next 4 years. And Palin was correct in reminding all just how inept and weak Obama would be , as President. Putin knew , too.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, March 1, 2014 12:26 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Yeah, but he's drawing a line in the sand, yet again. If you're going to talk big, then act big. IF not , stay the hell out of the kitchen.
What's worse: Saying stupid things, or doubling-down on stupid by ACTING stupid? Only a stupid person would encourage the latter, and that would be you.

A friend of mine, who is very familiar with nuclear power stations and military capabilities (ours and theirs) pointed out that...

Quote:

The United States of America has over a hundred (what one prominent US General called) 'pre-deployed nuclear weapons' spread across the Eastern United States. Even a single low-yield nuclear weapon of approximately 250 kilotons striking in the vicinity of one of these reactors would cause a reactor meltdown and fantastic long-term lethal radiological contamination.

Indian Point alone, just 10 miles outside of New York city, contains the equivalent of 20 Fukushimas. The resulting explosive force and radiation from scattered nuclear material, much of it aerosolized, would in most certainty, leave the extended city of New York lethally contaminated for centuries. This result in most likelihood would make all of New York State and large parts of the Northeast uninhabitable.

That is A SINGLE nuclear power station, and A SINGLE low-yield nuclear weapon. A single submarine in the Russian navy carries 20 multi-targetable warheads on a single missile. The total number of missiles on a submarine varies from 8-12. That makes it a possibility of 240 warheads. Also, each of these warheads is independently maneuverable. That means that with even 50% losses, they could hit 120 nuclear power plants. If I understand this, then I'm pretty sure the Russian military does too.

Therefore, this proposal is the equivalent of the desire to see the entire destruction of the United States of America with no possibility of recovery within the foreseeable future, let alone the incredible loss of life involved. Only someone with absolutely no understanding of physics, or empathy toward human life would consider such a solution. Such a person is obviously a sociopath.

This is one submarine. No intercontinental ballistic missiles and no close-range missiles deployed at the Arctic. We are talking about the possibility of over 6000 multi-warheaded missiles being deployed. Even 10% of these missiles getting through would cause the complete destruction of the North American continent. This is plain and simple insanity.




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Saturday, March 1, 2014 12:45 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


So, is Obama fucking dumb, or suicidally crazy? yeah, let me just poke the big bear one more time with my little stick ...

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Saturday, March 1, 2014 2:31 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


WOW, difficult choice! A lot of both???


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Saturday, March 1, 2014 5:08 PM

OLDENGLANDDRY


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:





You're missing the point, ENTIRELY !






The point is......


"HEY I'm RAPPY.... EVERYONE LOOK AT ME WHILE I DO MY LITTLE "HEY I'M RAPPY " DANCE.

Who cares if the world is going to shit, as long as you all give me the attention I deserve".

Etc, etc, etc.


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Saturday, March 1, 2014 5:55 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Really Sig ? A " friend " of yours, pointed THIS out...

Quote:

The United States of America has over a hundred (what one prominent US General called) 'pre-deployed nuclear weapons' spread across the Eastern United States. Even a single low-yield nuclear weapon of approximately 250 kilotons striking in the vicinity of one of these reactors would cause a reactor meltdown and fantastic long-term lethal radiological contamination.

Indian Point alone, just 10 miles outside of New York city, contains the equivalent of 20 Fukushimas. The resulting explosive force and radiation from scattered nuclear material, much of it aerosolized, would in most certainty, leave the extended city of New York lethally contaminated for centuries. This result in most likelihood would make all of New York State and large parts of the Northeast uninhabitable.

That is A SINGLE nuclear power station, and A SINGLE low-yield nuclear weapon. A single submarine in the Russian navy carries 20 multi-targetable warheads on a single missile. The total number of missiles on a submarine varies from 8-12. That makes it a possibility of 240 warheads. Also, each of these warheads is independently maneuverable. That means that with even 50% losses, they could hit 120 nuclear power plants. If I understand this, then I'm pretty sure the Russian military does too.

Therefore, this proposal is the equivalent of the desire to see the entire destruction of the United States of America with no possibility of recovery within the foreseeable future, let alone the incredible loss of life involved. Only someone with absolutely no understanding of physics, or empathy toward human life would consider such a solution. Such a person is obviously a sociopath.

This is one submarine. No intercontinental ballistic missiles and no close-range missiles deployed at the Arctic. We are talking about the possibility of over 6000 multi-warheaded missiles being deployed. Even 10% of these missiles getting through would cause the complete destruction of the North American continent. This is plain and simple insanity.



What the hell, did you happen to be dictating at the time ? And who casually " points out " 5 or so paragraphs of info ? On the matter of nuclear weapons capability ?

Who the HELL is talking jumpin right into the fray w/ nukes anyways ??? Over react much ?

OED - Pointing things out to you, even by using small words, still doesn't help you out much, I see. There wasn't an iota of " look at me! " here, what so ever. I pointed out why I posted, you're either pretending to be stupid or...


Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, March 1, 2014 6:27 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


definition of a troll: "and I refuse to chase others in a mindless, endless circle of " debate " on the internet. If I 'bitch out' of a discussion, I've said all I'm going to say on the matter, my views have been presented, and there's nothing left to add."



RUSH LIMBAUGH is a BLUE PILL ADDICT!
As evidence of "rape mentality"
Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:11 PM
MAL4PREZ
And just remember, according to Rappy, the term befitting a women who wants the insurance she pays for to cover medications affecting her reproductive organs is
whore

Wednesday, July 31, 2013 4:23 PM
little rappy
The term applies



And this is Geezer being non-partisan ... HAHAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ...
Dem Super Pac slams Obamacare because it really sucks and will cause herpes
Geezer
So some Democrats are running on pointing out that the Healthcare.gov rollout was an unmitigated disaster

I feel so vindicated.

"Just glad that some Democrats are acknowledging the bad job done in developing Healthcare.com." "it'll be interesting to see if these same Democrats acknowledge" "these Democrats seem to understand what the real Obama Kool-Ade drinkers still won't address" " it's about Democrats using criticism of the rollout in their campaign ads".




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Saturday, March 1, 2014 6:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I pointed out the website and got an email, which I quoted with permission. So, what's your problem? And do you have anything RELEVANT to say??? Apparently not. So....


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Saturday, March 1, 2014 6:30 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:


I pointed out the website and got an email, which I quoted with permission.




A better, fuller explanation than was given.

Clears things up a bit.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, March 1, 2014 9:41 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Moments ago Interfax reported that two Russian anti-submarine warships have appeared off the coast of Ukraine's Crimea region, violating an agreement on Moscow's lease of a naval base, according to a Ukrainian military source as saying. Then again what else would a Ukrainian military source say. The source added that the two vessels, part of Russia's Baltic Fleet, had been sighted in a bay at Sevastopol, where Moscow's Black Sea Fleet has a base.

So imagine two extra anti-sub ships off Sevastopol in the map below which until this latest update from Contemporary Issues and Geography, was keeping an accurate running update of all the most recent developments in the staggered Russian invasion of the Ukraine.




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Sunday, March 2, 2014 1:12 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


just great

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