REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Scientology and the Aftermath

POSTED BY: 6STRINGJOKER
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 13:43
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Friday, March 10, 2017 10:41 PM

6STRINGJOKER


http://www.aetv.com/shows/leah-remini-scientology-and-the-aftermath

I've watched a few episodes of this now after we were talking about Scientology a bit in one of the threads and it's pretty fascinating.

I wish the Organization itself would put something of their own out as well, rather than just saying that "everything they say is bullshit!!!".

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Saturday, March 11, 2017 8:15 PM

DREAMTROVE


The problem is Miscavige. He's a nutter. He seized power in the late 80s, from Broeker, who Hubbard had picked as a successor, and then Broeker left.

I didn't join CoS because of the inflexibility of his broadcast mentality. Really there should be a debate. Also, he should let someone else lead. If you can't exert your influence from the armchair, you don't have influence.

No influence dt is all.

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Saturday, March 11, 2017 11:12 PM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:


I didn't join CoS because of the inflexibility of his broadcast mentality.



Wait, you've read through their mythology and practices and gave SERIOUS thought to joining??

Holy hell, that says alot.

Wait, were you stoned at the time by any chance?

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Sunday, March 12, 2017 1:32 AM

6STRINGJOKER


You can go for yeeeeaaaaars before the nutty stuff comes out. Dianetics was a great read when I was 20 years old and nobody had told the world about all of the crazy later on. Anybody who actually learned the "secrets" of the "church" had already invested years of their lives and tons of their money before they were "enlightened".

You should probably watch it first before speaking about it Wish. Nobody likes a judgemental atheist.

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Sunday, March 12, 2017 8:48 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Yeah, number two in the endorsements for a non-mentally stable group by non-mentally stable people. Damaged is as damaged does.

Critical thinking skills are important, no matter how old you are.

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Sunday, March 12, 2017 3:18 PM

6STRINGJOKER


I see your vacation hasn't cured you of your malice yet Wish.

I don't endorse the church lol.

I think anybody who believes in anything 100% is fooling themselves to some degree or another. Atheists are just as foolish as any of them.


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Monday, March 13, 2017 1:49 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


I'm only an atheist when Christians irritate me and because it irritates them, the rest of the time I'm agnostic...as I've said a dozen times. You can't remember details about other people unless it fits in one of your diatribes.

Can't nobody prove a damn thing. Which is obnoxious. This whole f'n planet just doesn't make ANY sense.

Scientolo-gits make even less sense.

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Monday, March 13, 2017 2:08 AM

6STRINGJOKER


It's obnoxious that people can't prove a damn thing?

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Monday, March 13, 2017 2:26 AM

1KIKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
This whole f'n planet just doesn't make ANY sense.

Well, it must be really satisfying to endlessly curse the darkness, rather than light a single candle.




How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Monday, March 13, 2017 3:14 AM

6STRINGJOKER


What's fascinating about Scientology is that it is a cult AND it is as successful as it is. It never would have been able to get off the ground today with the internet.

I want to learn more about it to see how the hell it happened. How did this idea from one guy in the 50's turn into a billion dollar empire? They've been tax exempt and have had recognized status as a religion in the US since the 90's.

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Monday, March 13, 2017 8:05 AM

DREAMTROVE


They're brilliant is why. Essentially, it's the right idea. A set of scientific principles as the basis for a religion, that include organizing life, business and social structure according to science. I practice it in life, but did not join the church, and here's why: monotheism, kansas and the nature of cults.

Scientology was born in a room in Kansas, like most religions. I was there talking to George Zebrowski and James Gun, when they were talking about the invention of Scientology. IIRC, they were there at the time with Brian Aldiss, Robert A Heinlein and L Ron Hubbard, and the group was discussing the success of religion in Kansas vs. science.

Hubbard argued that people want a connection to something ancient, and Heinlein argued that people just wanted answeres, and religion supplied them. It ended with Heinlein challenging Hubbard to write a book of answers which he did, and it later became dianetics. Hubbard also wrote an origin myth, designed to be sci-fi and more ancient than anything else. Enter Xenu and all the crazy.

Thing is, all religions crazy ancient stuff is hogwash, it's the nature of religion. Get people to accept something totally bogus, like that Jesus turned water into wine, or caused already diseased fish and loaves of bread to multiply. Even ancient judean hisotry is nonsense, as is the connection of my people to it. We have more Ukrainian Khazar blood than israeli. But don't say tell any of this within a religion, because believing the lie is a barrier to entry and one of the mechanisms of control.

Jim has this thing about science messiah, which comes from the same idea. That's what leads us to tpeople like Dawkins. My own perspective on this is it's easy for you opposition to shoot down a man than an idea, and it also shuts off potential input to the idea from other people who might have something to add. Which is where I got to on scientology. Yes, a lot of great ideas, but how about not a cult, where other people who have written on the topic can also be included in the canon of scientific ways to organize our lives.

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Monday, March 13, 2017 4:37 PM

OONJERAH


The Universe according to Oonj.

This Universe didn't always exist. Once there was Void = Nothing.
No time, no space, no energy, no matter.

But now, not only do we have all that, we exist: life & mind,
able to perceive it.

How did it happen?
The Big Bang not: makes no sense to me that the Universe created
itself from nothing.

In that case, what existed to create it?
I don't know. But whatever created it, we would call God.

If there is God/Creator, then its intelligence is so humungously
more than ours, there is no point in trying to comprehend it.
I just wonder who-what-how caused it All.

Thus proving my comprehension is pretty shallow compared to the
great physicists.

Should we make up religions about God?
We best not; we're too damn dumb and petty: we'd screw it up.



... oooOO}{OOooo ...

The meaning of God: Good Old Diety

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Tuesday, March 14, 2017 10:52 AM

6STRINGJOKER


What I'd like to know, DT, is if L Ron Hubbard actually believed in the Sci-Fi aspects of his religion, or were they just some sort of manipulation tool. It's just so strange. I mean, it doesn't really sound any more ridiculous than stories from the bible ancient Greek and Norse mythology, or I'm assuming any other religious text, but those were all ancient text that were believed for many years back before Science had a name. We're talking the 1950 here, and it didn't really pick up until the 80s-90s.

1 of 2 things here is true. Tom Cruise believes in ancient aliens that he was able to release from his body, or he doesn't.

How are there still so many people in Scientology now? The number has dwindled since it's peak in the 90's and it doesn't get nearly as many new followers as it had in the past, but there are still tens of thousands of active members (or was it even hundreds... I can't remember the actual stat on that).

It's not like they can lock these people in a basement and proselytize them like Kimmy Schmidt in the bunker. How has the existence of the internet not just destroyed them by now?




Oonj... That's about where I stand on things. I don't believe that something this amazing just happened by chance. My mind is completely open to ideas like evolution and I'm a huge believer that we are not alone in the universe. At the same time, I don't for a second believe that one idea precludes the other.

That's what strikes me as so silly about the arguments between believers and atheists. I think they've all got a lot of good points, but none of them disprove the other side.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2017 1:37 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:
What I'd like to know, DT, is if L Ron Hubbard actually believed in the Sci-Fi aspects of his religion, or were they just some sort of manipulation tool. It's just so strange. I mean, it doesn't really sound any more ridiculous than stories from the bible ancient Greek and Norse mythology, or I'm assuming any other religious text, but those were all ancient text that were believed for many years back before Science had a name. We're talking the 1950 here, and it didn't really pick up until the 80s-90s.



All I can give is my guess. 1/2? I know a fair number of the people involved, and there are a few pieces of perspective that make sense.

One is Kansas. They make stuff up. Like Science Fiction. And religions. And what matters is not specifically if there is a Xenu, that's a metaphor, but is it in line with the basic concept.

Second, humans seeded by alien colonization. There are a lot of people that believe this, and there's some evidence for it. We have metorites that contain DNA, RNA, and may have started the process of prionizing the planet into amino acid chains. How far one wants to take that idea, into colonization or plan, I've heard a lot of variations. Something along the lines of Prometheus was what I suspect he was thinking, and probably believed. The more elaborate origin myth I suspect was an allegorical story to explain the concept, while giving them something ancient. What it does for the religion is connect the ideas to the origin, which is a bending of the light that you see in any religious text. Another thing to check out if you haven't is Radio Free Albemuth, for Philip K. Dick's take on our origin and purpose, and some conspiracy theory thrown in for good measure.

Quote:


1 of 2 things here is true. Tom Cruise believes in ancient aliens that he was able to release from his body, or he doesn't.


there's a third.

I've been in several religions, and there's an internal bargaining that goes on. As I said, I'm jewish and there's a lot of stuff in the OT which is hogwash. I'm also a taoist, and it took some time for me to reconcile those. I said, eventually, "okay, god, or yhwh, el, allah, could be names for the forces in the tao which represent the living universe."

Next part of this is to accept the possibility of its existence. Can I accept Xenu? no. It's a story. I have enough trouble accepting Moses. Sure, Moses was real, but did he really part the waters, or was there some geological event? And some i have to reject: the tale of Moses' birth, it's just stolen straight form Sargon I and obviously false. Ditto Jesus' birth. Again, I'd be dubious on the miracles, and I accept there was a Jesus. David is hardest for me. There was a David, but I know, historically, aside form being the champion at Elam, most of David is attributable, historically, to other people, like Salome Alexandra, the actual ruler of the unified kingdom. What does my religion ask of me? In practice all it really asks is that when someone gets up at temple and starts going on about the rule of david over the unified kingdom that i just not argue the point.

Who knows what the origin of any of us is? I know that there's been some strong evidence to suggest that evolution actually doesn't add genes. We're from a largely prewritten genome we inherited from single celled organisms, and about 10% of those genes are unlocked. So, we have wings and gills, they're just not expressed. what's the plan, our end goal? or who's goal is it? So, okay, i can accept the alien origin of DNA, because i see it science news. An alien plan behind it? not really, no, but i won't argue it, and i'll accept the possibility. It's not impossible.

The underlying thing about religion is accepting what we don't know. that's what makes anything a religion. The reason to do it is that if we accept that males and females were meant to mate and raise children, our kids will have a better survival chance than those who believe babies are edible. But all of the things we need to find out about life in order to life a successful life, simply take too long to work out if we have to prove it all for us.

Here's another practical real world example: at the moment i'm very ill and can't get medical care. The only reason i'm alive is that i use chinese traditional medicines which are very powerful. I have a very strong science background, so i know why they work. But millions of people take them just on faith, not knowing why they work, and the medicines work for those people just as well as they work for me. So, value in religion, just regular survival value.

Quote:

How are there still so many people in Scientology now? The number has dwindled since it's peak in the 90's and it doesn't get nearly as many new followers as it had in the past, but there are still tens of thousands of active members (or was it even hundreds... I can't remember the actual stat on that).

Consider the alternatives. People can believe in ancient mideast tribalism, add their chosen messiah, or neo-pagan recreations of an extinct religion, or they can accept secular society's moral relativism, which I posted some videos on, i can dig up some more, on why this might be a form of depopulation. So a religion based on science is appealing, or in this case, on science fiction.



Touched by his noodly appendage, like veganza.org

Quote:

It's not like they can lock these people in a basement and proselytize them like Kimmy Schmidt in the bunker. How has the existence of the internet not just destroyed them by now?

A lot of reasons.
1) They're being attacked from all sides. The jewish hollywood attack is a left hook from a group that basically owns the tinkletown networking game, parse a few sicilians. On the right, they have the xtians going on about why it's the work of the devil and please don't join. No one has to say that about church of satan or flying spaghetti monster, they're not worried anyone is going to join.
2) Freezone. Okay, so, like me, someone likes scientology, but they don't care for Miscavige. There's a whole heretic community out there. My own feeling is, sure, it's better to have a clear head than a muddled noisy one, but there might be other ways to get there, lot of ancient chinese and hindu texts on TM, for example, work very well. A lot of stuff written more recently.
3) Networking. You can go places fast as a scientologist. Out of 15 million followers, with only 25,000 people belonging to Miscaviges church, there are a large number of celebrities that do.

I see it's in the news
http://www.abcactionnews.com/news/local-news/church-of-scientology-to-
meet-with-city-leaders-one-on-one


What else has been in the news every day, somewhat sick of the media is Suri

Yes, Suri, they're really watching you. Every day, since you were born. What a paranoid person she will probably become. And she's going to be guaranteed a career. And meanwhile, the media thought she was an indoctrinated Manchurian candidate, and Miscavige thinks she's a contaminant. Okay, that's insane. OTOH, how many people watch the news? Those people are insane, they're stalking a 10 year old girl. And they're a cult as well. And millions of americans believe everything they say. (Watch the church of media adherents post.)

All of that said, not everyone in the freezone is going to be *less* crazy than at CoS


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Tuesday, March 14, 2017 1:43 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
The Universe according to Oonj.

Oon, I used to be here. I'm not sure it was created out of nothing. It could be a black hole collapsing out of a multiverse. At any rate, the universe is much larger I suspect than the universe we can see, even before you get to that barrier. As for religion, i think it's better if we do. otherwise, we just do the stupid. Too much structure tho, and you end up with a mass stupid of everyone following. I suspect the creator is inseparable from its creation, and that creation is not an event, but an ongoing process. Universe according to DT

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