REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

"Walk Away"

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Saturday, July 14, 2018 22:30
SHORT URL:
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Sunday, July 8, 2018 3:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I didn't even know there was such a thing until REAVERFAN (I think) mentioned it; all of the sudden it seems to be everywhere.

This is the only place I can link to the original video ....
https://www.theepochtimes.com/viral-walk-away-videos-highlight-growing
-movement-of-democrats-leaving-the-party_2578446.html


MORE ABOUT



Quote:

Founder Of Movement For Disillusioned Democrats Refused Service At New York Electronics Store

...Straka then expressed concern over being "doxxed" by the angry employee since Adorama collects so much personal information.

"At every station of the store, I’d given them my personal information. What if this kid decides to go into the computer and dox [to publish private information, as in a phone number or address] me?"

"I am not a guy who has a lot of money. I can’t have people going to my apartment and harassing me."

“My instinct is telling me to practice compassion and forgiveness here. I don’t want to see this guy getting fired. I don’t want anything bad to happen to him. I don’t want people harassing him.”

Adorama issued a statement in response to the incident over Twitter:

“The Adorama Management Team deeply regrets the incident involving an employee in our store. Please know this is not who we are, and does not reflect the position of our owners or other staff members. This is being taken seriously and is being addressed with the highest priority.”


https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-07/founder-movement-disillusion
ed-democrats-refused-service-new-york-electronics-store



Now, frankly, I don't think this is going to make much difference. People who were going to "walk away" (mostly) already have, and people have become so polarized on the issues that I don't think this is going to change many minds. But, what do YOU think?


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Sunday, July 8, 2018 7:15 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Walk away is the latest Russian bot astro turf vehicle (thx for verifying). Maybe you should read something other than ZeroSludge? It's to make soft Democrats or any voter who is not committed think that there's a movement amongst democrats to "walk away." I suppose it could be aimed at weak republicans too. Of course it's bullish*t. The people who scream Fake News the most are the ones who use it the most.

What I don't know is if this latest reposting of *anti* stories / clutter is part of the chaos plan...? Do you know? I have a feeling it is, but here??? With 10 members? Hardly seems efficient, but the 'net is a crazy living organism - who knows.


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Sunday, July 8, 2018 7:36 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
But, what do YOU think?

I think you voted for Jill Stein, with the result that Trump takes control of the Supreme Court for decades after he is dead. There is a noticeable difference between a Justice who is a Republican versus a Democrat. Many important decisions have been made 4 to 5, with Democrats on one side, Republican justices on the other.
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/lostinshowbiz/2018/jul/05/protest-all
-you-like-susan-sarandon-in-effect-you-work-for-trump


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 7:46 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


I feel that if any person is employed somewhere that they had better not refuse any service based off of a political ideology unless that is the orders that are given to them by the owners of the store. The same goes for any other beliefs such as religious ones and the story of the gay couple who were refused service at the cake store.

Whoever did this should be fired and made an example of. If I were running the outfit they'd be out on their ass the moment I heard this happened.

At the same time, I believe that an owner has the right to make these decisions, and the Supreme Court recently ruled in favor of that.

That being said, I think it's pretty foolish to be turning down any business, particularly in this economy. Don't go crying to anyone if you eventually lose your business and you were turning customers away because you didn't agree with them or their own personal choices.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 9:44 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

But, what do YOU think?- SIGNY

I think you voted for Jill Stein= SECOND

Despite the fact that I said that I didn't, and have taken a serious amount of trolling and/or libel for it?

I think that you're off your nut/ still grasping at straws.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 10:10 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Walk away is the latest Russian bot astro turf vehicle (thx for verifying).- GSTRING
Thanks for bringing this up.

What I've noticed over the past year is that (some) people ... such as JO, SHINY, SECOND, and WISHY .... people who are otherwise sensible, mostly good-hearted people have become progressively more and more unhinged in their thinking. (Not you and THUGR, tho. You two are trolls and have been trolls for as long as I can remember. You don't get any credit for being anything other than a troll, and you might even be sockpuppets. And RF is the latest addition to the "troll farm".)

It's at the point where people SERIOUSLY believe that I'm a "Russian troll" (!), despite the fact that I have an extremely long history of posting here .... loooong before RUSSIA!! and Trump ever became "a thing" .... and that my posts have been pretty consistent over the years: I was highly critical of GWB when he crossed my lines, and critical of Obama for the same reasons. My opinions aren't a secret; what I find frustrating is that people mis-state them so often!

But using common sense, do you really believe that Russia would waste their resources planting a mole here, on this no-account scifi fansite, waiting for the day (14 years later) when "their" candidate might have a shot at the Presidency in order to reach a couple dozen people?

It's gotten to the point (JO, ARE YOU READING THIS?) where JO apparently thinks that I, KIKI, SIX, and JSF are all here at the behest of the FSB! The same confounding questions: Why would a security agency waste four of their people on a website that reaches maybe two-dozen people?

Srsly.
If the FSB was that stupid, none of you should be worried about RUSSIA!! because RUSSIA!!! (or at least it's security agencies) would implode from gross mis-allocation of resources. The concept goes so much against common sense, it reveals a sense of paranoia ... which itself speaks to a unrealistic level of self-importance. AS IF you, or I, or this website rates that level of attention from .... anyone!


But it's gotten to the point where anyone who disagrees with the "liberal cabal" (PLEASE NOTE: That makes up roughly half of the voting population of America) must be

1) A Nazi/facist, and/or
2) A straight white male supremacist, and/or
3) A Russian troll.

So.
Half of our voting population is made up of Russian trolls and white male Nazis????
Anyone care to toss THAT against the wall of reality and see if it sticks?

*******

Moral indignation/ outrage has short-circuited several common-sense units, I think. But what are people so outraged about? It's been such a scattering of the important and the trivial, it's hard to make sense of THE thing (or maybe the several issues) that are driving people. And please, don't say "Trump". That's not a good answer.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 10:22 AM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
Walk away is the latest Russian bot astro turf vehicle (thx for verifying). Maybe you should read something other than ZeroSludge? It's to make soft Democrats or any voter who is not committed think that there's a movement amongst democrats to "walk away." I suppose it could be aimed at weak republicans too. Of course it's bullish*t. The people who scream Fake News the most are the ones who use it the most.

What I don't know is if this latest reposting of *anti* stories / clutter is part of the chaos plan...? Do you know? I have a feeling it is, but here??? With 10 members? Hardly seems efficient, but the 'net is a crazy living organism - who knows.


Yup. Just more Putin/Murdoch BS. Fake.

Fox calling the media "dishonest?" LOL! There's your first clue. This guy doesn't have a lot of money? Don't worry, dude. Fox is going to feature you constantly, and it pays well.

Looks like they're getting desperate to tap a younger demographic of politically illiterate dupes.

I just posted a vid about recognizing fascist talking points, and fascists in general.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=62530


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Sunday, July 8, 2018 10:28 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I just posted a vid about recognizing fascist talking points, denying reality and fascists fellow Americans in general.
FIFY


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 10:31 AM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

I just posted a vid about recognizing fascist talking points, denying reality and fascists fellow Americans in general.
FIFY





The butthurt is strong in this one. Did you seriously think we wouldn't recognize your propaganda? LOL!

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 10:35 AM

REAVERFAN


Gee, look what I found...

Russian Bots Linked To Viral Twitter Attacks On ‘Hateful’ Dems
Is this a preview of stepped-up activity before the midterm elections?
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/russian-bots-linked-to-viral-atta
cks-over-rude-dems_us_5b414945e4b05127ccf2d083?utm_source=reddit.com


This shit is all over reddit right now as well. It's like how it was back in 2016 before the ramp up to the election. A sudden massive influx of bullshit, gaslighting, hostility, and propaganda.

Russia is working overtime folks, and so are the right wing troll brigades.

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 10:55 AM

REAVERFAN


It’s no coincidence that Russia’s Information warfare is cranking into full gear again considering a bunch of Republican congressmen just went over to Russia to grovel at their feet on July the fucking 4th.

Putin is loving this timeline.

“We will help you attack and undermine America’s electoral system and neuter America’s intelligence and federal law enforcement agencies if you do everything you can to keep the Republicans in power Mr Putin.

In exchange for that favor we will remove the sanctions against your glorious oligarchy.”

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 11:00 AM

REAVERFAN


Pro-Trump & Russian-Linked Twitter Accounts Are Posing As Ex-Democrats In New Astroturfed Movement
#WalkAway from this deceptive propaganda campaign
https://arcdigital.media/pro-trump-russian-linked-twitter-accounts-are
-posing-as-ex-democrats-in-new-astroturfed-movement-20359c1906d3


As pundits, politicians, and other Very Serious People spent last weekend admonishing “the left” for not being civil enough in their approach to pushing back against the Trump administration’s cruel policy of forcibly separating immigrant children from their parents, a peculiar and carefully crafted narrative began to take shape on social media. A closer look at this emerging narrative—a self-described “grassroots movement” of former Democrats fleeing the party—revealed an astroturfed campaign driven by pro-Trump Twitter users and amplified by automated and Russian-linked accounts.

The surge of tweets started on Saturday, June 23, when news broke that White House press secretary Sarah Sanders had been quietly asked to leave a restaurant in Lexington, VA, the night before. The social media campaign really took off the next day, after Rep. Maxine Waters (D-Calif.) said in a speech that administration officials who support Trump’s policies should expect to face pushback when they go out in public.

Most of the tweets were strikingly similar, and the vast majority pushed a very familiar narrative. Using the hashtag #WalkAway and claiming to be former Democrats, social media users shared their stories of leaving the Democratic party after being turned off by the “hate” and “division” of “the left.”

Poor Siggy. Has to eat shit, yet again. LOL!

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 12:27 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Sunday, July 8, 2018 7:15 AM http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=62529&mid=1
056573#1056573
Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
Walk away is the latest Russian bot astro turf vehicle (thx for verifying). Maybe you should read something other than ZeroSludge? It's to make soft Democrats or any voter who is not committed think that there's a movement amongst democrats to "walk away." I suppose it could be aimed at weak republicans too. Of course it's bullish*t. The people who scream Fake News the most are the ones who use it the most.

What I don't know is if this latest reposting of *anti* stories / clutter is part of the chaos plan...? Do you know? I have a feeling it is, but here??? With 10 members? Hardly seems efficient, but the 'net is a crazy living organism - who knows.







SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 12:48 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:
Pro-Trump & Russian-Linked Twitter Accounts Are Posing As Ex-Democrats In New Astroturfed Movement

I suppose RUSSIA!! is responsible for Trump's increasing approval and the democrats' decreasing approval over all these months? Yanno, whether or not #WalkAway is genuine, democrats have been quietly walking away for a long time, starting with the 2016 election where Hillary saw poor numbers compared to Obama. And no amount of RUSSIA!!-blaming has changed the democrats' long-term declining fortunes, or is going to change the over-all trend in the future. Democrats need to look at what they are doing wrong. (Hint: it's the economy, stupid.)

https://news.gallup.com/poll/15370/party-affiliation.aspx

CNN poll: Democrats' 2018 advantage is nearly gone Updated 4:33 PM ET, Wed May 9, 2018

The Democrats' advantage in the generic ballot dipped from 16 points in February to six points in March to just three points now. By 48% to 43%, registered voters say they would rather back a candidate who opposes Donald Trump than one who supports the President. That margin has narrowed from the 52% who opposed Trump to the 41% who supported him in January.

Here lies our fallen hero:
Her fall was not a small one.
She did but make her voting base,
A narrow but a tall one.





SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 2:22 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Pro-Trump & Russian-Linked Twitter Accounts Are Posing As Ex-Democrats In New Astroturfed Movement #WalkAway from this deceptive propaganda campaign
Oh look, it's REAVERFAN, carefully pretending that a vanishingly small number of Russia-sourced tweets has anything to do with 63 million Americans (the number of people who voted for Trump).

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 4:47 PM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Pro-Trump & Russian-Linked Twitter Accounts Are Posing As Ex-Democrats In New Astroturfed Movement #WalkAway from this deceptive propaganda campaign
Oh look, it's REAVERFAN, carefully pretending that a vanishingly small number of Russia-sourced tweets has anything to to with 63 million Americans (the number of people who voted for Trump).




Keep grasping! Grasp! Damn your eyes! Proven wrong over and over. I guess you get paid to lie, so you have to.

Hillary got 3 million more votes than Blumpy. Or did you forget?

Lies exposed in minutes. Facts have a left bias.

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 4:55 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Hillary got 3 million more votes than Trump". And Trump got 50% more states than Hillary.

the Clinton archipelago






SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 5:43 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Hillary got 3 million more votes than Trump". And Trump got 50% more states than Hillary.

the Clinton archipelago



Quote:


SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

That might be post of the year. Where did you find that?

I'm not sure about the naming of St. Louis Island. It might be St. Croix Island or Duluth Island.
Seems a little weird that Milwaukee is named Lake Island, folk might mistake it for Lake County IL.


How is it that second resides on Harris Island, but whines incessantly about all the Republicans who surround his existence?



To further help others with their geography trivia, I can point out that there is a Menominee, MI (southernmost tip of the UP) and Menomonie, WI and Menomonee Falls, WI - but the Menominee Island is located in Menominee County, which is the Indian Reservation.

Rounding out this area, to the east of Bayfield Island is Ashland, and to the west is Superior. Between Dane and Hennepin Islands are the Atolls of LaCrosse and Eau Claire. Superior, LaCrosse, and Eau Claire are State-funded University congregations.



Anyhow, Hilliary's 20 States and Trump's 30 States. Quite the turnaround after RINO Romney became the only Republican Nominee in history to capture less than 50% of the States.




And much weight is thrown to the term "former Democrats"
But almost all reasonable people are former Democrats, from the time they opened their eyes and woke up.
Very few can survive the Indoctrination of Public Schools without being Brainwashed into Liberals. Only exposure to the Real World and absence of Liberal Public School Gaslighting during this recovery period, as the FACTS Vaccine wears off, can force reasonable folk to gain their sense and cast off their cloak of Liberalism. This defines them as "former Democrats."

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 7:25 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Pro-Trump & Russian-Linked Twitter Accounts Are Posing As Ex-Democrats In New Astroturfed Movement #WalkAway from this deceptive propaganda campaign- RF

Oh look, it's REAVERFAN, carefully pretending that a vanishingly small number of Russia-sourced tweets has anything to to with 63 million Americans (the number of people who voted for Trump).

Keep grasping! Grasp! Damn your eyes! Proven wrong over and over. I guess you get paid to lie, so you have to. Hillary got 3 million more votes than Blumpy. Or did you forget? Lies exposed in minutes. Facts have a left bias. - RF

Psssst! Dood, I hate to inform you but ... roughly 63 million Americans voted for Trump (62,979,636).

And somehow, you manage to imply that all 63 million people are pro-Nazi extremists- or worse! - and deserve your collective aggression because ... yanno ... "fascism"!

Hey, despite the fact that you behave like a jerk, I don't think ALL "liberals" are just like you, and I sure don't justify rampaging against "liberals" because of YOUR behavior.

And a good thing, too! You give liberals a bad name!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 7:53 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So, hoping that this doesn't get lost in REAVERFAN's bullshit ...
Quote:

Walk away is the latest Russian bot astro turf vehicle (thx for verifying).- GSTRING

Thanks for bringing this up.
What I've noticed over the past year is that (some) people ... such as JO, SHINY, SECOND, and WISHY .... people who are otherwise sensible, mostly good-hearted people have become progressively more and more unhinged in their thinking. (Not you and THUGR, tho. You two are trolls and have been trolls for as long as I can remember. You don't get any credit for being anything other than a troll, and you might even be sockpuppets. And RF is the latest addition to the "troll farm".)

It's at the point where people SERIOUSLY believe that I'm a "Russian troll" (!), despite the fact that I have an extremely long history of posting here .... loooong before RUSSIA!! and Trump ever became "a thing" .... and that my posts have been pretty consistent over the years: I was highly critical of GWB when he crossed my lines, and critical of Obama for the same reasons. My opinions aren't a secret; what I find frustrating is that people mis-state them so often!

But using common sense, do you really believe that Russia would waste their resources planting a mole here, on this no-account scifi fansite, waiting for the day (14 years later) when "their" candidate might have a shot at the Presidency in order to reach a couple dozen people?

It's gotten to the point (JO, ARE YOU READING THIS?) where JO apparently thinks that KIKI, SIX, JSF, and I are all here at the behest of the FSB! The same confounding questions: Why would a security agency waste four of their people on a website that reaches maybe two-dozen people?

Srsly.
If the FSB was that stupid, none of you should be worried about RUSSIA!! because RUSSIA!!! (or at least it's security agencies) would implode from gross mis-allocation of resources. The concept goes so much against common sense, it reveals a sense of paranoia ... which itself speaks to a unrealistic level of self-importance. AS IF you, or I, or this website rates that level of attention from .... anyone!


But it's gotten to the point where anyone who disagrees with the "liberal cabal" (PLEASE NOTE: Those who disagree with the liberal cabal make up roughly half of the voting population of America) must be

1) A Nazi/facist, and/or
2) A straight white male supremacist, and/or
3) A Russian troll.

So.
Half of our voting population is made up of Russian trolls and white male Nazis????

Anyone care to toss THAT against the wall of reality and see if it sticks?

*******

Moral indignation/ outrage has short-circuited several common-sense units, I think. But what are people so outraged about? It's been such a scattering of the important and the trivial, it's hard to make sense of THE thing (or maybe the several issues) that are driving people. And please, don't say "Trump". That's not a good answer.



What I would like to do, for anyone who cares to answer what, specifically, drives them nuts about Trump, isn't to argue but to ASK QUESTIONS. I would like to keep on asking questions until I feel that you, or I, have gotten to the heart of the problem.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 8:18 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Thanks for bringing this up.
What I've noticed over the past year is that (some) people ... such as JO, SHINY, SECOND, and WISHY .... people who are otherwise sensible, mostly good-hearted people have become progressively more and more unhinged in their thinking. (Not you and THUGR, tho. You two are trolls and have been trolls for as long as I can remember. You don't get any credit for being anything other than a troll, and you might even be sockpuppets. And RF is the latest addition to the "troll farm".)

But using common sense, do you really believe that Russia would waste their resources planting a mole here, on this no-account scifi fansite, waiting for the day (14 years later) when "their" candidate might have a shot at the Presidency in order to reach a couple dozen people?

It's gotten to the point (JO, ARE YOU READING THIS?) where JO apparently thinks that KIKI, SIX, JSF, and I are all here at the behest of the FSB!

*******

Moral indignation/ outrage has short-circuited several common-sense units, I think. But what are people so outraged about? It's been such a scattering of the important and the trivial, it's hard to make sense of THE thing (or maybe the several issues) that are driving people. And please, don't say "Trump". That's not a good answer.

What I would like to do, for anyone who cares to answer what, specifically, drives them nuts about Trump, isn't to argue but to ASK QUESTIONS. I would like to keep on asking questions until I feel that you, or I, have gotten to the heart of the problem.

Are you specifically asking only reactionary Liberals, or also reasonable folk?

Most of what annoys me is what we already were afraid of before the Election.

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 8:38 PM

REAVERFAN


It's hilarious watching you try to cover your asses after getting them handed to you.


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Sunday, July 8, 2018 8:58 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:
It's hilarious watching you try to cover your asses after getting them handed to you.




lol.

What are you talking about?

Trump is president. His approval rating is on the rise even amidst the illegal immigration scandals. Supreme Court will be voting against ultra-liberal policies for generations after he dies. Democrats have doubled down on everything that got Trump elected in the first place and are losing... they probably won't even take the house back at this rate (which is bad for all of us, IMO).

In what world do you think your pathetic insults and constant hyperbolic cries of Nazism means you're handing anybody's ass to them?

Clown.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 9:13 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

What I would like to do, for anyone who cares to answer what, specifically, drives them nuts about Trump, isn't to argue but to ASK QUESTIONS. I would like to keep on asking questions until I feel that you, or I, have gotten to the heart of the problem.- SIGNY

Are you specifically asking only reactionary Liberals, or also reasonable folk? Most of what annoys me is what we already were afraid of before the Election.- JSF

Anyone who cares to answer.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Monday, July 9, 2018 9:45 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

What I've noticed over the past year is that (some) people ... such as JO, SHINY, SECOND, and WISHY .... people who are otherwise sensible, mostly good-hearted people have become progressively more and more unhinged in their thinking.



Says the person who posts images of the mutilated corpses of children and says it's the same as posting sounds of children after they were separated from their parents, and then accuses other posters of being in snuff films. You set the standard for "lost their shit" on this board.

And don't think we haven't noticed you deflecting from the Russian bot fueled fakery that is the walk away BS. Nice try!

TROLL REPORT:

"Yesterday I posted about the fake “walk away” movement and was pounced upon constantly by “Trumpers” defending it. I checked now. ALL those accounts went inactive once it was night in Russia but day in the USA. And several have ceased to exist. Coincidence?

Nyet!"

https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/walkaway-movement/

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Monday, July 9, 2018 10:23 AM

REAVERFAN


It's a fact, not something that can be debated.

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Monday, July 9, 2018 11:02 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

"Yesterday I posted about the fake “walk away” movement and was pounced upon constantly by “Trumpers” defending it. I checked now. ALL those accounts went inactive once it was night in Russia but day in the USA. And several have ceased to exist. Coincidence?
Oh, yeah, wow. Too bad this isn't Twitter, so your argument falls apart.

There are a lot of flash in the pan "movements". They flare up and die very quickly, without leaving any real impact, including those poor kids in FL who thought they were going to make a difference with gun control. Changing things in the USA is like running thru jello ... it takes persistence and lots and lots of energy. Even the #Metoo movement seems to have lost momentum.

My impression of #walkaway - which I already posted- is that this is more about self-recognition- recognition that people who have already "walked away" aren't alone, but part of a trend. But, as I posted, I don't think it will actually change many minds, since people have already divided up on the issue of left-wing authoritarianism.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Monday, July 9, 2018 11:09 AM

JJ


Yep it has been confirmed, this is one more of many Russian propaganda troll threads. So let me be the first to suggest we just walk away.

T


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Monday, July 9, 2018 11:17 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

"Yesterday I posted about the fake “walk away” movement and was pounced upon constantly by “Trumpers” defending it. I checked now. ALL those accounts went inactive once it was night in Russia but day in the USA. And several have ceased to exist. Coincidence?
Oh, yeah, wow. Too bad this isn't Twitter, so your argument falls apart.



How? You don't use Twitter so to you no one does? Pls explain.

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Monday, July 9, 2018 11:18 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by JJ:
Yep it has been confirmed, this is one more of many Russian propaganda troll threads. So let me be the first to suggest we just walk away.

T



I propose a counter effort, this one real though (of course). Actual registered Republicans who have had enough of this disgusting sack of sh*t represent us and will put their name on record. Such as George Will and on and on.

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Monday, July 9, 2018 11:40 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

How? You don't use Twitter so to you no one does? Pls explain.- CC

The problem with Twitter is that it's easily manipulated. HALF of the tweets circulating thru Egypt during #Arabspring turned out to have been sourced in Israel.

I don't know how many people have actually responded with their own "walk away" story (probably authentic) versus how many have simply retweeted and/or responded (could be bots). Like I said, I think this is mainly a "self-recognition" moment, not destined to change many minds. OTOH, is IS an indication that traditional liberals are getting turned off by the extremely toxic turn that you demonstrate.

What people REALLY think will be demonstrated in the upcoming elections and in 2020. Don't dismiss these movements, and don't dismiss the polling numbers which show that Republicans are coming up in the polls. You made that mistake last time, and you got nailed with a big case of PTSD which you're still working thru.

If you want to do something BESIDES living in a state of denial, how about pushing the DNC and the DCCC to start actually representing Americans as a whole, not just a pastiche of presumed-victim-subgroups. Being a registered Democrat, I get a lot of questionnaires and phone calls, and I let them know every time where I think they fucked up, and how I think they should be doing better.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Monday, July 9, 2018 12:10 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=62529&mid=1
056702#1056702


Monday, July 9, 2018 11:09 AM
Quote:

Originally posted by JJ:
Yep it has been confirmed, this is one more of many Russian propaganda troll threads. So let me be the first to suggest we just walk away.

T







SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Monday, July 9, 2018 12:15 PM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

How? You don't use Twitter so to you no one does? Pls explain.- CC

The problem with Twitter is that it's easily manipulated. HALF of the tweets circulating thru Egypt during #Arabspring turned out to have been sourced in Israel.



That's a problem or the opportunity? I think we know!
Precisely why it's fertile ground for Russian influence - do you deny the logic in that?

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
OTOH, is IS an indication that traditional liberals are getting turned off by the extremely toxic turn that you demonstrate.



Of course it isn't. I demonstrate a negative pov for lying trolls like the people promoting this fake movement. *cough*

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
What people REALLY think will be demonstrated in the upcoming elections and in 2020.



Of course you are wrong. If people are manipulated with false info like this then they will make false choices.
You know this and yet you deny.

It's gotta be tricky being pro Putin. You have to swallow your intelligence to back Trump for the ultimate goal of supporting Putin - your pride must be taking a beating.

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Don't dismiss these movements, and don't dismiss the polling numbers which show that Republicans are coming up in the polls. You made that mistake last time, and you got nailed with a big case of PTSD which you're still working thru.



Do me a favor and don't assign motivations to me because you A) clearly don't read my posts, and B) are confusing everyone with everyone else lately.

I made 2 mistakes last time:

1. I under estimated how many people hated Hillary and just how much they hated her. If you recall, I said many bad things about her, but there was a larger than anticipated ground swell of hatred for her. Much of that was due to the false info from people like the walkaway shills. You know how politics works, so you acting like this is news is just embarrassing.

2. I underestimated how far and wide and on how many levels Russia influenced the election. If you recall, I have tipped my hat to their efforts.

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
If you want to do something BESIDES living in a state of denial, how about pushing the DNC and the DCCC to start actually representing Americans as a whole, not just a pastiche of presumed-victim-subgroups. Being a registered Democrat, I get a lot of questionnaires and phone calls, and I let them know every time where I think they fucked up, and how I think they should be doing better.



Yeah, like they don't know that already... good deflection.

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Monday, July 9, 2018 12:16 PM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
Quote:

Originally posted by JJ:
Yep it has been confirmed, this is one more of many Russian propaganda troll threads. So let me be the first to suggest we just walk away.

T



I propose a counter effort, this one real though (of course). Actual registered Republicans who have had enough of this disgusting sack of sh*t represent us and will put their name on record. Such as George Will and on and on.



Republican Party is walking away from the GOP president: Stuart Varney
https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/republican-party-is-walking-away-
from-the-gop-president-stuart-varney


G.O.P. Senators Pull Away From Trump, Alarmed at His Volatility
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/14/us/politics/trump-republican-senato
rs.html


Republican? Anti-Trump? Don’t Quit—Stay in the Party and Change It
https://www.thedailybeast.com/republican-anti-trump-dont-quitstay-in-t
he-party-and-change-it


Looks like the smart ones really are walking away.

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Monday, July 9, 2018 12:21 PM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Damn! Even Trump TV (Fox Business) is talking about Republicans walking away from Trump!

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Monday, July 9, 2018 12:24 PM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
Damn! Even Trump TV (Fox Business) is talking about Republicans walking away from Trump!



Fake news!!!!1!!!

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Monday, July 9, 2018 1:42 PM

JJ


T



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Monday, July 9, 2018 1:44 PM

JJ


Conservative Writer Max Boot Calls GOP ‘White-Nationalist Party’, Endorses Democratic ‘Takeover’

Like former Republican strategist Steve Schmidt and conservative columnist George Will before him, Washington Post columnist Max Boot has not only seceded from the GOP, but declared war against it, as his new column outlines in fiery detail.

https://www.mediaite.com/online/conservative-writer-max-boot-calls-gop
-white-nationalist-party-endorses-democratic-takeover
/

T

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Monday, July 9, 2018 2:16 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

How? You don't use Twitter so to you no one does? Pls explain.- CC

The problem with Twitter is that it's easily manipulated. HALF of the tweets circulating thru Egypt during #Arabspring turned out to have been sourced in Israel.- SIGNY

That's a problem or the opportunity? I think we know! Precisely why it's fertile ground for Russian influence - do you deny the logic in that? - CC

I don't deny the logic, but you're pretending that nobody else has access to Twitter and nobody else knows how to manipulate it. There's only one good response to the problem of media-manipulation (because it comes from all directions on all different channels) and that is to listen to multiple sources, focus on the facts, and try to understand the big picture.

Quote:

OTOH, is IS an indication that traditional liberals are getting turned off by the extremely toxic turn that you demonstrate. - SIGNY

Of course it isn't. I demonstrate a negative pov for lying trolls like the people promoting this fake movement. *cough* - GSTRING

You've been nothing but a troll since I started reading your posts, you attack people instead of focusing on issues, and you justify your bad behavior (and the bad behavior of others) with the same rationalizations as any bully. So yeah, you're toxic. And a troll.

Quote:

What people REALLY think will be demonstrated in the upcoming elections and in 2020. - SIGNY

Of course you are wrong. If people are manipulated with false info like this then they will make false choices. You know this and yet you deny. GSTRING

Are you denying that this person exists and posted a video? Are you denying that leftwing hate groups have been formed? That people have walked away from the Democratic party? How is this (#walkaway) "false" info?

Quote:

It's gotta be tricky being pro Putin. You have to swallow your intelligence to back Trump for the ultimate goal of supporting Putin - your pride must be taking a beating.- GSTRING
This is why you're being tagged as a troll.

Quote:

Don't dismiss these movements, and don't dismiss the polling numbers which show that Republicans are coming up in the polls. You made that mistake last time, and you got nailed with a big case of PTSD which you're still working thru. - SIGNY

Do me a favor and don't assign motivations to me

THIS from the guy who just assigned "pro Putin" motivations to me? God, you're such a troll.

Quote:

because you A) clearly don't read my posts, and B) are confusing everyone with everyone else lately
All you trolls sound alike to me, so if I confuse you with REAVERFAN or THUGR, maybe you should distinguish your posts from the other trolls by ... not being a troll.

Quote:

I made 2 mistakes last time:

1. I under estimated how many people hated Hillary and just how much they hated her. If you recall, I said many bad things about her, but there was a larger than anticipated ground swell of hatred for her. Much of that was due to the false info from people like the walkaway shills.

"False info" like ... what? That she was videoed saying "We came, we saw, he died" *giggle*? You've mentioned "false info" a couple of times, and you've never been able to show that it was "false".

Quote:

2. I underestimated how far and wide and on how many levels Russia influenced the election. If you recall, I have tipped my hat to their efforts.
This is such a crock. Maybe your real problem is that you just can't believe that 63 million Americans might have had one or two legitimate reasons to vote for Trump/ against Hillary.

Are you SO CORRECT and SO RIGHTEOUS that it justifies despising half of the American voting population as Nazis or Russian dupes? I think you might want to go back and examine where you went wrong in your understanding of your fellow Americans, and maybe feel a little more respect when you do it.

Quote:

If you want to do something BESIDES living in a state of denial, how about pushing the DNC and the DCCC to start actually representing Americans as a whole, not just a pastiche of presumed-victim-subgroups. Being a registered Democrat, I get a lot of questionnaires and phone calls, and I let them know every time where I think they fucked up, and how I think they should be doing better. - SIGNY

Yeah, like they don't know that already...

I don't want anyone to be able to say, later ...Well, we just didn't know . I make liberal use of the "other" option, because the DNC's/ DCCC's extremely biased questions show me that they still haven't learned to listen. So every pollster and every tabulator is going to know exactly how I feel, regardless of how they try to "push-poll" me.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Monday, July 9, 2018 2:34 PM

REAVERFAN


Self-described Nazis and white supremacists are running as Republicans across the country. The GOP is terrified.
The racist candidates are expected to lose, but they could drag their party down with them.
https://www.vox.com/2018/7/9/17525860/nazis-russell-walker-arthur-jone
s-republicans-illinois-north-carolina-virginia
#

Terrified? More like "complicit." They know who they pander to.

Yup, the Nazis are your problem, not the Dems'. Own it.

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Monday, July 9, 2018 2:53 PM

JJ


The democrats are not the problem here. Well said reaverfan.

T


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Tuesday, July 10, 2018 12:50 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Ooh, you guys must have Sig pinned...she's itemizing responses again.

Sig, just FYI...the more you scream "I'M NOT RUSSIAN" the more you look Russian. A person who wasn't Russian affiliated wouldn't care in the slightest.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2018 1:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Sig, just FYI...the more you scream "I'M NOT RUSSIAN" the more you look Russian. A person who wasn't Russian affiliated wouldn't care in the slightest.
WISHY, the more you scream RUSSIA!! the more you look like a deliberate libeler. Apparently, nobody has clued you in. You might want to shut up now.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Tuesday, July 10, 2018 6:03 AM

REAVERFAN


Where do you live, Siggy? Tell us about it.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2018 7:45 AM

REAVERFAN


Do you know this couple?

Meet the Moscow Mouthpiece Married to a Racist Alt-Right Boss
She spreads the words of Russia’s most virulent propagandist. He’s a leading racist hate-monger. Nina Kouprianova and Richard Spencer are a very different kind of power couple.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/meet-the-moscow-mouthpiece-married-to-a-
racist-alt-right-boss

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Tuesday, July 10, 2018 7:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:
Where do you live, Siggy? Tell us about it.


I already have, in this thread http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=58882

BTW, if you think you're being "clever" by insinuating that I'm Russian instead of saying it outright .... you're not.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Tuesday, July 10, 2018 7:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:
Do you know this couple?

Meet the Moscow Mouthpiece Married to a Racist Alt-Right Boss
She spreads the words of Russia’s most virulent propagandist. He’s a leading racist hate-monger. Nina Kouprianova and Richard Spencer are a very different kind of power couple.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/meet-the-moscow-mouthpiece-married-to-a-
racist-alt-right-boss
]

Noted

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Tuesday, July 10, 2018 11:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

1. I under estimated how many people hated Hillary and just how much they hated her. If you recall, I said many bad things about her, but there was a larger than anticipated ground swell of hatred for her. Much of that was due to the false info from people like the walkaway shills.- CC

"False info" like ... what? That she was videoed saying "We came, we saw, he died" *giggle*? You've mentioned "false info" a couple of times, and you've never been able to show that it [anything posted here] was "false". - SIGNY

So, what, specifically, do you find was "false info" about "walk away"?

What, specifically, was "false info" about Hillary? (At least, as posted here. I have little knowledge about what's posted on Twitter/FB or other social media except as other people tell me about it.)

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 10, 2018 11:28 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


The following post is more for the record since I know SIGNYM will just deny and deflect as usual.

Hey SIGI: get over it again for the 35th time. Your posting history suggests even to a mollusk that you and KIKI are pro Russia. Get over it 2: You post many things that many of us disagree with, and some vehemently - that's people exercising their right to free speech.

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I don't deny the logic, but you're pretending that nobody else has access to Twitter and nobody else knows how to manipulate it. There's only one good response to the problem of media-manipulation (because it comes from all directions on all different channels) and that is to listen to multiple sources, focus on the facts, and try to understand the big picture.



Guess you forgot my original posts to you and KIKI that if we do it you know that Russia does it. Maybe there's a clue in there why I don't think you are genuinely interested in honest discussion?

Big Picture: Russia used social media to manipulate voters to believe a multitude of negative untruths about Hillary and false positives about Trump to influence the election. No, I'm not "butthurt" about Hillary losing, I'm pissed off that no one seems to be doing anything about past and current Russian social media influences.

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
You've been nothing but a troll since I started reading your posts, you attack people instead of focusing on issues, and you justify your bad behavior (and the bad behavior of others) with the same rationalizations as any bully. So yeah, you're toxic. And a troll.



You've been nothing but a troll since I started reading your posts, you attack people instead of focusing on issues, and you justify your bad behavior (and the bad behavior of others) with the same rationalizations as any bully. So yeah, SIGNYM, you're toxic. And a troll. At least I've never posted images of child corpses.

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM: Are you denying that this person exists and posted a video? Are you denying that leftwing hate groups have been formed? That people have walked away from the Democratic party? How is this (#walkaway) "false" info?


Because it's being promoted by Russian bots giving false impressions.

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

It's gotta be tricky being pro Putin. You have to swallow your intelligence to back Trump for the ultimate goal of supporting Putin - your pride must be taking a beating.- GSTRING
This is why you're being tagged as a troll.



Geez, I was being sympathetic! Besides, you "tag" everyone who disagrees with you as a troll.
PLUS - You are being tagged as a Troll for posting images of mutilated child corpses.

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
THIS from the guy who just assigned "pro Putin" motivations to me? God, you're such a troll.



Funniest thing posted this year. ^

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
You've mentioned "false info" a couple of times, and you've never been able to show that it was "false".



Here's a primer - note "astro turf" at the end - that's the promotion of false info. BTW - this is information every AMERICAN - no matter who you vote for - should know and understand, including everyone here.

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/spot-russian-bot-social-media/

Bots vs. Shills

Let’s start by differentiating bots and shills.

Bot: A bot is a fake social media account under the control of an organization or government seeking to influence the online community. For instance, a Twitter bot set to retweet certain hashtags and phrases in such volumes that it amplifies the specific topic. Another example is Reddit bots downvoting views disagreeing with the bot controller opinion (while upvoting those that do agree). Bots require volume for success on certain platforms, while at other times only a few can begin to shape the direction of a conversation.

Shill: A shill is different. Shills are real people actively engaging in the shaping of online (in this instance) discussion and opinion—while receiving payment in exchange for their presence. Shills promote companies, governments, public figures, and much more, for personal profit, essentially engaging in propaganda.

Depending on the organization or government, shills can work in conjunction with large bot networks to create intense vocal online movements. And while the combined efforts of shills and bots shape online opinion, these efforts are increasingly affecting more than just social media users.

The practice is also known as astroturfing, whereby organizations and governments curate the conversation through “regular” members of the public.

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
This is such a crock. Maybe your real problem is that you just can't believe that 63 million Americans might have had one or two legitimate reasons to vote for Trump/ against Hillary.



Of course you missed or choose to ignore my post on that very subject. Do you read anyone's posts besides your own?

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Are you SO CORRECT and SO RIGHTEOUS that it justifies despising half of the American voting population as Nazis or Russian dupes? I think you might want to go back and examine where you went wrong in your understanding of your fellow Americans, and maybe feel a little more respect when you do it.



You've misattributed again - or just lying or both. You're such a Troll ^

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
If you want to do something BESIDES living in a state of denial, how about pushing the DNC and the DCCC to start actually representing Americans as a whole, not just a pastiche of presumed-victim-subgroups. Being a registered Democrat, I get a lot of questionnaires and phone calls, and I let them know every time where I think they fucked up, and how I think they should be doing better.

I don't want anyone to be able to say, later ...Well, we just didn't know . I make liberal use of the "other" option, because the DNC's/ DCCC's extremely biased questions show me that they still haven't learned to listen. So every pollster and every tabulator is going to know exactly how I feel, regardless of how they try to "push-poll" me.




Are you sure they were Democrats calling you up? How do you know? It's like fake social media accounts that seem human. We should all be outraged by this - where's your indignation at these foreign influences??

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Tuesday, July 10, 2018 11:38 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Are you sure they were Democrats calling you up? How do you know?
They identified themselves as DNC or DCCC pollsters and were accepting donations at DNC and DCCC addresses. The surveys had DNC and DCCC return addresses, postage paid. Either there is someone committing wire fraud/ postal fraud, or they are legitimate organizations.

Quote:

It's like fake social media accounts that seem human. We should all be outraged by this - where's your indignation
If you accepted my challenge at staying on-topic and not getting personal, you just lost, because you are ascribing a POV to me.
Quote:

these foreign influences??
What foreign influences?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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