REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Why Does American Military Attack/Assault?

POSTED BY: JEWELSTAITEFAN
UPDATED: Sunday, November 4, 2018 14:52
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VIEWED: 254
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Saturday, October 27, 2018 3:50 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Some disclarity in other threads has spurred me to desire some clarity regarding American Military actions.

Although starting this now, largely as a reminder for me, I don't expect to be able to fill in many blanks right away, or very soon.

I will also likely need a lot of help with perspectives and recollections which are currently beyond me.

So, although I expect to fill in the details later, I'll try to explain what I intend clearly now.
Also, if another thread of sufficient similarity is started, I will not be offended.


I want to know the reasoning or purpose or intent of America's Military actions.
I should remind all that our Armed Services are under Command of the Commander-in-Chief, POTUS, and the remaining higher structure (SecDef, SecNav, SecArmy, SecAirForce) which are civilians. Civilians controlling the Military is the design of our current structure.

Because there are usually at least 2 sides to arguments, let us refer to the "pro" argument, in favor of the action, and also the "snide" or sarcastic argument, often undermining the stated or pro argument.

Fair certain I am forgetting to mention something here, which was in my post which got deleted.


But I'll try to start:


World War II, Dec 1941 - Aug 1945.


Korean War




Vietnam, early 60s.
Pro #1: after the conclusion of WWII 18 years prior, the lands and populations of the defeated Axis Powers were divided among the Victors, which included Communist Russia or USSR/Soviet Union, plus the reasonable nations. USSR used this as excuse to inflict Communism upon the peoples they were to steward, including North Vietnam, thru China. These Communists wanted to conquer more lands, including South Vietnam. As stewards of the peaceable democracy (in theory) of South Vietnam, it fell to America to help South Vietnam defend herself from the Chinese Communists warring as the pretense of a Sovereign Nation of North Vietnam. This would Foster and support the fledgling democracy centered in Saigon until it flourished and matured. In essence, defending South Vietnam from invasion of Communist North Vietnam. Supporting Liberty, Freedom, self-governance of the South.


Grenada, Oct 1983. Operation Urgent Fury.
The Nation of Grenada has suffered under democratic rule since 1984.



Kuwait, Aug 1990 - Feb 1991. Desert Storm.
Pro #2: after the invasion and annexation of Kuwait by Iraq, this was to expel the world's 4th Largest Army (Iraq) from Occupation. Plus the stated defense of Saudi Arabia from further border breaches. Iraq's Army was 4th Largest behind America, China, Soviet Union.



Gulf War II, Sep 2001 - ??



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Saturday, October 27, 2018 3:50 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


2

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Saturday, October 27, 2018 8:05 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


I dunno. It seems like we get all up in everybody else's business, but can't be bothered to defend our own borders from invaders.

Glad I pay very little in taxes so I don't feel too guilty about my part in that bullshit.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, October 27, 2018 10:25 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I want to know the reasoning or purpose or intent of America's Military actions.
Are you looking for the REAL reasons, or the reasons that we're told?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Saturday, October 27, 2018 11:14 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Sorry, site deleted my post.
I'll get back.

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Sunday, October 28, 2018 4:28 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

I want to know the reasoning or purpose or intent of America's Military actions.
Are you looking for the REAL reasons, or the reasons that we're told?

To start with, I expect all reasonable viewpoints to be valid.
However, please do not expect me to be able to immediately transcribe all entries into the OP. I may need a bit of time to get all that done.
It would be helpful to try to condense the entries.

Perhaps, following this post, each posted entry could self-identity with a number, the next number after the last posted entry. So the next one would be #3, assuming my starter entries are #1 & #2. This might help in referencing, and discussions would not require consulting the OP.

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Sunday, October 28, 2018 7:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I think it's a good idea to number the various points but I'm not sure what you mean in terms of implementation. I guess you're trying to consolidate all of the arguments into one thread?

Vietnam Anti #3
Your history of Vietnam is wrong. Vietnam was NEVER part of that Post WWII grand bargain in Yalta. Vietnam had been a colony of France and was part of FRENCH INDOCHINA before WWII.

After WWII, as a result of Potsdam Conference, the British took control of the southern end of Vietnam while the northern end was given to China (pre-revolutionary China, under Chiang Kai-shek, before Mao). China accepted the leadership of Hi Chi Minh, who was both an anti-colonialist as well as a socialist, but the British -in essence- "gave back" the southern end of Vietnam back to FRANCE, VIETNAM'S FORMER COLONIAL MASTER. The French attempted to militarily re-assert control over all of Vietnam. This led to a running - and ultimately successful- guerrilla war against the French, which led to a formal division of North and South Vietnam in 1954. (The end of the Fist Indochina War)

Once the nation was divided, the war continued in the south. Thus the war in South Vietnam was BOTH an independence war as well as a turn towards socialism. The first USA presence entered South Vietnam in 1955 to SUPPORT THE FRENCH COLONIALISTS. Unfortunately for the west, "anti-communism" was inevitably blended with "pro-colonialism" since France was still attempting to control S Vietnam. This was the beginning of the Second Indochina War AKA The Vietnam War AKA The American War.

http://www.localhistories.org/viethist.html



--------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Sunday, October 28, 2018 1:11 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I think it's a good idea to number the various points but I'm not sure what you mean in terms of implementation. I guess you're trying to consolidate all of the arguments into one thread?

Vietnam Anti #3
Your history of Vietnam is wrong. Vietnam was NEVER part of that Post WWII grand bargain in Yalta. Vietnam had been a colony of France and was part of FRENCH INDOCHINA before WWII.

After WWII, as a result of Potsdam Conference, the British took control of the southern end of Vietnam while the northern end was given to China (pre-revolutionary China, under Chiang Kai-shek, before Mao). China accepted the leadership of Hi Chi Minh, who was both an anti-colonialist as well as a socialist, but the British -in essence- "gave back" the southern end of Vietnam back to FRANCE, VIETNAM'S FORMER COLONIAL MASTER. The French attempted to militarily re-assert control over all of Vietnam. This led to a running - and ultimately successful- guerrilla war against the French, which led to a formal division of North and South Vietnam in 1954. (The end of the Fist Indochina War)

Once the nation was divided, the war continued in the south. Thus the war in South Vietnam was BOTH an independence war as well as a turn towards socialism. The first USA presence entered South Vietnam in 1955 to SUPPORT THE FRENCH COLONIALISTS. Unfortunately for the west, "anti-communism" was inevitably blended with "pro-colonialism" since France was still attempting to control S Vietnam. This was the beginning of the Second Indochina War AKA The Vietnam War AKA The American War.

http://www.localhistories.org/viethist.html



--------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876



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Sunday, October 28, 2018 1:11 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I think it's a good idea to number the various points but I'm not sure what you mean in terms of implementation. I guess you're trying to consolidate all of the arguments into one thread?

Vietnam Anti #3
Your history of Vietnam is wrong. Vietnam was NEVER part of that Post WWII grand bargain in Yalta. Vietnam had been a colony of France and was part of FRENCH INDOCHINA before WWII.

After WWII, as a result of Potsdam Conference, the British took control of the southern end of Vietnam while the northern end was given to China (pre-revolutionary China, under Chiang Kai-shek, before Mao). China accepted the leadership of Hi Chi Minh, who was both an anti-colonialist as well as a socialist, but the British -in essence- "gave back" the southern end of Vietnam back to FRANCE, VIETNAM'S FORMER COLONIAL MASTER. The French attempted to militarily re-assert control over all of Vietnam. This led to a running - and ultimately successful- guerrilla war against the French, which led to a formal division of North and South Vietnam in 1954. (The end of the Fist Indochina War)

Once the nation was divided, the war continued in the south. Thus the war in South Vietnam was BOTH an independence war as well as a turn towards socialism. The first USA presence entered South Vietnam in 1955 to SUPPORT THE FRENCH COLONIALISTS. Unfortunately for the west, "anti-communism" was inevitably blended with "pro-colonialism" since France was still attempting to control S Vietnam. This was the beginning of the Second Indochina War AKA The Vietnam War AKA The American War.

http://www.localhistories.org/viethist.html


I was planning to list them, for reference of the various viewpoints, but still allow discussion freely and unrestricted among others within the thread.


Thanks for that entry. I think you got the infancy of the conflict better than I did. But you think there was no separation between 1955 and JFK's decision to be involved or more involved?

I am not sure I consider your entry to be Anti, just merely a different version of Pro. Please correct me if you feel I'm wrong there. For the War in the 60s and 70s, are you saying the stated goal of our commitment was to hand over the democratized South Vietnam to France? I have never heard of that goal. In your view what would the US have done if we won that conflict - leave them alone as a fledgling democracy, or submit them to subjugation under France?
Can we agree that France had effectively ceased to exist for a period of WWII? I had thought all of Vietnam had fallen under the Japanese Empire during WWII.

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Monday, October 29, 2018 3:25 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I think it's a good idea to number the various points but I'm not sure what you mean in terms of implementation. I guess you're trying to consolidate all of the arguments into one thread?

Vietnam Anti #3
Your history of Vietnam is wrong. Vietnam was NEVER part of that Post WWII grand bargain in Yalta. Vietnam had been a colony of France and was part of FRENCH INDOCHINA before WWII.

After WWII, as a result of Potsdam Conference, the British took control of the southern end of Vietnam while the northern end was given to China (pre-revolutionary China, under Chiang Kai-shek, before Mao). China accepted the leadership of Hi Chi Minh, who was both an anti-colonialist as well as a socialist, but the British -in essence- "gave back" the southern end of Vietnam back to FRANCE, VIETNAM'S FORMER COLONIAL MASTER. The French attempted to militarily re-assert control over all of Vietnam. This led to a running - and ultimately successful- guerrilla war against the French, which led to a formal division of North and South Vietnam in 1954. (The end of the Fist Indochina War)

Once the nation was divided, the war continued in the south. Thus the war in South Vietnam was BOTH an independence war as well as a turn towards socialism. The first USA presence entered South Vietnam in 1955 to SUPPORT THE FRENCH COLONIALISTS. Unfortunately for the west, "anti-communism" was inevitably blended with "pro-colonialism" since France was still attempting to control S Vietnam. This was the beginning of the Second Indochina War AKA The Vietnam War AKA The American War.

http://www.localhistories.org/viethist.html

I had planned to have all the arguments listed in one thread. But if the argument is in another thread then the list could just have a linky to that thread.

Further, some arguments might already exist in other threads. Linkies could be listed for those, either whole threads on topic, or specific posts within those threads.
If the original poster could provide the message ID number, that would be great.

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Tuesday, October 30, 2018 2:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Instead of trying to divide up the arguments as "pro" and "con", maybe we should just try to describe the goals/ motivations as best we can.

So, to get back to #4 Vietnam, I think that the reasons for our military involvement pretty much morphed from "assisting the French" to "fighting Communism". The Gulf of Tonkin incident was a fabrication, so THAT wasn't the reason!

Having dug through the various "reasons" for causing the deaths of 2-3 million people in Vietnam, "fighting Communism" seems like the emptiest, but there doesn't seem to be any other reason. The USA certainly wasn't under threat, there were no resources to speak of, the area wasn't important for shipping, it wasn't an important market and would not have been important to the banking system. There was the "domino theory" but - IMHO- the ENTIRE SE Asian territory could have "gone communist" and the USA would not suffer any significant loss.

So, unless you have any further ideas, can we tag the Vietnam war to "fighting communism"?



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Sunday, November 4, 2018 12:32 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Sometimes the meddling, interventions, schemes these are done by secret society, globalist players creating chaos and wars, the KGB operated much like the CIA, there were Leftwing militia formed across the world and also a giant network of militias, movements of money, bombs, maybe drugs, maybe terrorists and 'freedom fighters' depending on how what government defined them.


The first true American war was a war against thefy, British Imperialism, taxation, independence the American Revolutionary War

Many many battles and war came after

The First Barbary War American ships now flying a new flag were no longer under protection of the British Navy so their trade and people in US ships would either have to pay ransom or tribute like the French or build a military to protect your shipping, it leads to a study of America's enemy this dead guy mahomet in the Koran or Quran and also a war with mohammedans of Tripolitania and Morocco Sultanate, the formation of the United States Marines.

There was a Canadian British loyalist invasion of Washington, D.C., the capital of the United States, during the War of 1812 where they bruned down the Whitehouse.

A war in the Carribean over ships and pirates and for a while a cessation of Franco-American alliance

American Civil War 1861–1865 putting an end to slavery, Dissolution of the Confederacy, Slaves abolished,
the right for people to be free and then Lincoln assassinated

Almost countless wars and battles against Native American tribes

more battles and war with Barbary states or moslem pirates.

Land grabs in the Mexican–American War

Opium Wars in China becoming drug pushers in Beijing and US Marines and Sailors attack Formosan pirates Taiwan and even a war with the Korean Joseon dynasty

More wars and battles with the Native American made glamor onscreen by hollyweird, the Cheyenne, Arapaho, Comanche, Modoc and countless other Native American peoples and langauges and culture attacked the Lakota, Dakota Sioux, Northern Cheyenne American peoples attacked killed

...and guess what I have not even reached 1900s yet, not even started last century

There are truthers, historians more centrist people who will give answers or create specualtion. One of which many of these Wars are not really good for America in the long term.

Some Wars might be 'Just' had Noble intentions, the war was fought for the good reasons

However let's look at another organization, a big player in draggin the USA into chaos not just Saudis or Globalist israeli Jews or Iran or the USSR or British Russian or fall out from the French Empires but let's look at the CIA, this group and its connections to the old spy groups and secret societies, the London banks, the OSS and the Mi6. The CIA and others and their secret society could try claim they fought wars for America's interests but clearly they grew big and fat and get it wrong sometimes, leaving America to pay up and shed more blood for their mistakes. For example the funding of the Afghan terrorists, the Mujaheddin and others who would latter grow into the Taliban and Al-Qaeda was all part of the fall out of the ColdWar proxy BS wars.

The Iran-Contra affair with guns going into the hands of islamists and drugs from Latin America on the streets of Calfornia cities and other places all thanks to secret societies and government policy.

America's first and early wars and battles, maybe it could be argued theer was something good or noble or just about it....after a while the toxic spreads, the corruption, the cancer....it became a machine? was this your 'military industrial complex' former Presidents warned of?


Secret interventions, the CIA, bombings, assassination, regime changes, the KBG doing other stuff. There is a long long list of nations El Salvador, The Philippines, Guatemala, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Chile, almost all Africa in some covert op, Nicaragua, would the CIA forsee the Turks going to Russia's side the Turkish Ottoman schemes.... or the US lost foresight and becoming like the former Imperial European masters it once rebelled against? and Hisory does get strange, thing do get WEIRD and cruel atomic veterans... British once started to code break a long time ago America wanted to be smarter and Roosevelt creates the Office of Coordinator of Information (COI). General William "Wild Bill" Donovan heads the new intelligence service. Later CIA recreates a covert action wing, innocuously called the Office of Policy Coordination, led by Wall Street lawyer Frank Wisner. According to its secret charter, its responsibilities include "propaganda, economic warfare, preventive direct action, including sabotage, antisabotage, demolition and evacuation procedures; subversion... Operation MK-ULTRA — Inspired by North Korea’s brainwashing program, the CIA begins experiments on mind control. The most notorious part of this project involves giving LSD and other drugs to American subjects without their knowledge or against their will, causing several to commit suicide. However, the operation involves far more than this. Funded in part by the Rockefeller and Ford foundations, research includes propaganda, brainwashing, public relations, advertising, hypnosis, and other forms of suggestion, later the CIA starts to control the media? do people have trouble to believe the weird stuff America has done not just to foreign nations but its own people?

Does a dog using its own mind and conscience and thought happily wag its tail or is sometimes there something odd happening in global politics and world affairs like the tail wagging the dog

who created the mess we see today in Syria? There seem to be many players

There was one guy who posted here, a conspiracy Quack UFO nut ran his own silly radio show, he would rant and say crazy stuff. One thing he said were all wars ...ALL WARS were wars to benefit globalist and the bankers and internationlist companies, I used to think him crazy, all wars? I used to think all he said crazy....maybe he wasn't so crazy

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Sunday, November 4, 2018 2:52 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


The Birthdate of the Marine Corps was 10 November 1775. They did not wait to form until 26 years later amid the First Barbary War.

When all of Washington DC was set aflame in 1812, one house was specifically not set to flame. Because of this, the House of The Commandant of The Marine Corps is on the National Historic Register. It is located on G Street, between 8th and 9th.

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