A Chritianized Buffy by Zicsoft

BUFFYVERSE

A Chritianized Buffy

POSTED BY: ZICSOFT
UPDATED: Friday, August 22, 2003 06:41
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Thursday, September 26, 2002 11:57 AM

Here's a column by one Todd Hertz, an evangelical Christian who dissents from Parents TV's condemnation of Buffy. He is, in point of fact, an avid fan. But he's sufficiently disturbed by the "gratuitous violence and sexuality for its own sake" and the "immoral lives" of some of the characters that he doesn't let his kids watch it. Perhaps LivingImpaired should have a word with him.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/136/31.0.html

Curiously, Hertz is bothered by the way God goes unmentioned, but not by the portrayal of very un-monotheistic deities such as Osiris and Glory. Perhaps he considers Paganism to be just another non-Christian religion he has to tolerate.

JOSs, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Thursday, September 26, 2002 12:00 PM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Guess we better not tell this guy that JW's an atheist.

________________

"I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life’s a bitch. You’ve got to go out and kick ass." —Maya Angelou

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Thursday, September 26, 2002 12:09 PM

ZICSOFT

Quote:
Originally posted by LivingImpaired:
Guess we better not tell this guy that JW's an atheist.

Well, I'm an atheist, and I have Christian friends. And I mean adherents of the more conservative denominations. Not all Christians are bigots -- just the noisy ones.

JOSH, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Thursday, September 26, 2002 12:14 PM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

You know what. This guy pisses me off. First of all, am I the only one that is enraged when the Christian right continuously confuses Wicca with Satanism? Why is it that when people discriminate against Jews, Muslims, Buddists, or any other religion, it's BAD, but when Christian nuts stand up and say that witchcraft is Evil, no one bats an eye?

Oh, and does anyone here really think that Angel losing his soul was about the moral dangers premarital sex?

But back to witchcraft. These people claim to follow a religion that is teaches you to "love thy neighbor," and "judge not least you be judged." So why are they so intolerant of other belief systems? Why are they so bigoted? Who are they to be so judgemental?

Here endith the rant.

________________

"Note to self. Religion: freaky." -Buffy, "What's My Line pt. 1"

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Thursday, September 26, 2002 12:16 PM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Quote:
Originally posted by LivingImpaired:
Guess we better not tell this guy that JW's an atheist.

Well, I'm an atheist, and I have Christian friends. And I mean adherents of the more conservative denominations. Not all Christians are bigots -- just the noisy ones.

JOSH, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

I know. I'm agnostic with friends of all kinds of beliefs. But bigotry against wicca doesn't seem to be confined to just the wackos out there. And I'b be lying if I told you that it doesn't bother me. A lot.

________________

"I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life’s a bitch. You’ve got to go out and kick ass." —Maya Angelou

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Thursday, September 26, 2002 4:50 PM

KALIMAC

Is it impossible to understand that a Christian can still "love his neighbor" while disapproving of his actions?

It is not ours to judge, but it is our place to want to remove ourselves from immoral behavior.

No, Christians should not denounce Wicca differently from other religions. The problem some Christians have is the dangerous power that can be associated with the religion.

BTW, most (not all, sadly, but most) Christians do understand the difference between Wicca and Satanism. (Though all of them might not realize that Satanism itself also has nothing to do with the worship of Satan.) However, as we see it, supernatural powers achieved through this (and yes, some other religions) is in fact supplied by Satan and his horde. The reason many Christians seem to be misunderstanding Wicca is that they believe that (unbeknownst to the followers themselves) they are in fact being empowered by the devil.

But I've always said I have no more trouble seeing witchcraft being portrayed on TV than I do, say Hinduism. Or Atheism! (Perhaps a more dangerous religion, in the long run, anyway.)

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Friday, September 27, 2002 2:17 AM

BOBKNAPTOR

Quote:
Originally posted by LivingImpaired:

I know. I'm agnostic with friends of all kinds of beliefs. But bigotry against wicca doesn't seem to be confined to just the wackos out there. And I'b be lying if I told you that it doesn't bother me. A lot.

I think my biggest complaint about the majority's views on Witchcraft, Wiccan beliefs, Pagan beilefs and Satanic beliefs is that they all the same. (Joss, whom I love and adore, is not exempt from this scorn. I am greatly displeased by the way he and his marketing crew use "wiccan" as if it were exactly the same as "witch")

Witchcraft (all the stuff that they show Willow doing on the show) is not necessarily Wiccan. Osiris is an Egyptian god. And while paying tribute to him would be considered Pagan, it is not Wiccan. Pagan is defined by dictionary.com as:

Quote:
One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion

Some background on the word:

Quote:
Middle English, from Late Latin pgnus, from Latin, country-dweller, civilian, from pgus, country, rural district. See pag- in Indo-European Roots.

Country-dweller. The reason for this is that the city dwellers, who were detached from the earth and the growth of crops were easier to convert to Christianity, because it is more of a "god will provide" religion, and has nothing to do with actually growing crops. But the "country-dwellers", the ones who had spent generations praying to the god of rain and the goddess of the harvest and the god of the sun, etc., etc., etc... feared that giving up their gods would risk their crops. Therefore, they were much more difficult to convert. Pagans.

A lot of people are uncomfortable with the idea of witchcraft, and paganism. I remember years ago watching the ridiculously terrible movie "Dragnet" and seeing that the villains of this movie were "PAGAN: People Against Goodness And Normalcy".

As for Joss, All those "Wanna Blessed Bes" Willow was dismissing in Season 4's episode "Hush" are a what most neo-pagans really are. I have always been willing to suspend disbelief about Willow's powers because they never really tried to introduce any "witches" who were not like her: powerful and magical. But I was incredibly annoyed the introduction of the wiccan circle for no other purpose than to be the butt of a joke.

so the point of this rant, (and to get back to the quote at the top here from our friend "LivingImpaired") is that when you say you are bothered a lot by wiccanism, is it really Wicca that bugs you? or is it Joss Whedon's version of Wicca (which is not really wicca at all)?

______________
Nowadays every girl with a henna tattoo and a spice rack thinks she's a sister to the dark ones.

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Friday, September 27, 2002 3:44 AM

SHUGGIE

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
A lot of people are uncomfortable with the idea of witchcraft, and paganism. I remember years ago watching the ridiculously terrible movie "Dragnet" and seeing that the villains of this movie were "PAGAN: People Against Goodness And Normalcy".

You seem to have missed the fact that the whole movie was a spoof of the original 50's TV show and its rather straight-laced moral attitudes.

The PAGAN thing was actually a joke (ok not a great one) on the fact that the main bad guy was a prominent clergyman. Pagan - as you pointed out - being by definition not Christian and in some senses opposite to it.

Quote:
As for Joss, All those "Wanna Blessed Bes" Willow was dismissing in Season 4's episode "Hush" are a what most neo-pagans really are. I have always been willing to suspend disbelief about Willow's powers because they never really tried to introduce any "witches" who were not like her: powerful and magical. But I was incredibly annoyed the introduction of the wiccan circle for no other purpose than to be the butt of a joke.

Neo-paganism and even Wicca means a lot of different things to different people (as does Christianity or Socialism). There quite clearly are 'dabblers' in all faiths. People who like the trappings but have missed the point of the main beliefs. I think the Wanna Blessed-Bes represent those kind of people.

You get into problems if you interpret that scene as being any kind of comment on real Wiccans. Because you then have to say that Joss actually believes in a superior Willow-type of Wiccan who's able to do stuff like float pencils. Clearly he doesn't - so both sets of beliefs in that scene are fictionalized versions of Wicca. Using the name Wicca to conjure (no pun intended) certain background associations.

A bit like the way they use computers on the show. There's no way you can remotely do the kinds of things they've done with computers on the show. And if you did they wouldn't look the way they show it. But I don't worry about it because I know that they are using computers in a fictional way.

I'd be as foolish to base any opinions of real world Wiccans on what's on Buffy as I would to try to use a computer in the way Willow does.

Shug

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Friday, September 27, 2002 4:00 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
so the point of this rant, (and to get back to the quote at the top here from our friend "LivingImpaired") is that when you say you are bothered a lot by wiccanism, is it really Wicca that bugs you? or is it Joss Whedon's version of Wicca (which is not really wicca at all)?

You misunderstand me. Paganism in any form doesn't bother me in the least. What bothers me is religious intolerance. Just because someone believes that there is an invisible man that lives in the sky with a list of 10 things you shouldn't do, or you'll go to a Bad, Painful, Ouchy place Forever--well, that doesn't give them the right to condemn people for thinking the invisible man is actually three women (womyn).

I really don't think that was a sentence.

________________

"I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life’s a bitch. You’ve got to go out and kick ass." —Maya Angelou

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Friday, September 27, 2002 5:26 AM

ZICSOFT

Quote:
Originally posted by LivingImpaired:
You know what. This guy pisses me off. First of all, am I the only one that is enraged when the Christian right continuously confuses Wicca with Satanism?

OK, I'm confused. Where does Herz talk about Wicca or Satanism? He talks about Willow's fascination with magic having nasty consequences. I admit that comes close to implying that all witchcraft is evil. But consider his audience: fellow Evangelicals who see an anti-Christian agenda in any portrayal of magic. He's trying to get them to watch the show with the idea that it's portraying a non-Christian world view, not advocating it.

Quote:
Oh, and does anyone here really think that Angel losing his soul was about the moral dangers premarital sex?

Well yeah, actually, I do. Sleeping with a non-evil vampire and causing him to lose his soul may not be an everyday experience. But like so much of the "fantasy" on Buffy, it parallels some very real experiences. Whedon loves to talk about teenage girls who tell him, "I relate to that story because it happened to me. I really loved this guy, and he was good to me. But then I slept with him and he turned into a monster."

It seems to me that Whedon's and Hertz's moral attitudes are closer than you credit. It's true that Whedon doesn't share Hertz's belief that sex outside of marriage is categorically wrong. But Hertz justifies his beliefs in terms of consequences, not holy writ. As does Whedon.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Friday, September 27, 2002 6:01 AM

ZICSOFT

Quote:
(Joss, whom I love and adore, is not exempt from this scorn. I am greatly displeased by the way he and his marketing crew use "wiccan" as if it were exactly the same as "witch")

That used to bother me. But then I thought about exactly what "wicca" and "witch" means.

As I understand it, wiccans claim to be carrying on a spiritual tradition that dates back many centuries before Europe was Christianized. In this tradition, early Wicca was a simple religion whose female leaders studied natural forces and practiced healing arts. There was no magic, no broomsticks, no curses or conjuring of dark forces. These are stories invented by the male-dominated Church, which was driven to suppress Wicca not just as a competing religion, but by a desire to reduce women to a subordinate role. In short "witches" are a Christian-invented myth.

Now, there are problems with this version of history. But that's true for the early history of all religions, and doesn't invalidate Wicca as a faith or a way of life.

Except that in the Buffyverse, witches are real. They can do all the strange things the Church said they could do, and more. Which doesn't leave a lot of room for women who embrace Wicca but reject the idea of magic. They're not true Wiccans -- they're Wannablessedbes who imitate an ancient tradition without understanding its magical origins.

Does this make Joss Whedon anti-Wicca? Well, maybe he's making fun of it, a little. But remember, he doesn't actually believe in magic -- he just likes to tell stories about it.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Friday, September 27, 2002 10:09 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Hear, hear, Zicsoft.

________________

"You still don't get it. It's not about right, not about wrong... It's about Power." —Morph-O-Monster, "Lessons"

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Friday, September 27, 2002 10:12 AM

NOVAGRASS

Quote:
Originally posted by Kalimac:

Or Atheism! (Perhaps a more dangerous religion, in the long run, anyway.)

I don't know why I'm doing this... but here goes...

I am confused on several aspects of this comment...

A) Why do you consider atheism a religion? Atheism, by definition, is the belief that there is no god. Atheism cannot be a religion, though it can be used to describe certain religions. (ex: Zen Buddhism is an atheist religion. They, for the most part, do not belive in a god (though, Buddhism can be practiced along with any other religion... so this example may only apply to exclusive Zen Buddhists).)

B) Do you believe that atheism leads to general anti-morality? I stand as firm proof to the contrary. Human morality has existed for thousands, nay, millions, of years longer than religion. In fact, religion (epecially monotheistic religions) has been the basis of some of the world's most hideous acts of immorality (ie, The Crusades, the Salem witch trials, the Islamic jihadd, the Holocaust (yes, Hitler's views were religion based), the racial lynchings in the south, etc, etc, ect... I could go on). Religion seems to be the justification for many to do immoral acts ("Oh, I killed this homosexual because the bible says homosexuality is sinful," or "I blew up two of the world's tallest buildings for the sake of the advancement of my religion"). In the long run, religion has actually been a front for (I won't say caused because it is obviously some humans' natures that causes these acts of violence, and religion is simply the guise they hide behind) the most immoral acts in the world's history. I challenge you to find one attrocity, on the scale of these religious ones, committed by a group of atheists. It's my belief that religion is more destructive in the long run than atheism. Though, obviously it is not yours.

This isn't to say that I believe religion is bad. In fact, I believe that religion is avery valuable part of human culture, and is the right of every person to practice, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. What I am saying is that atheism is no more dangerous than any other religion.

Please explain why you thing atheism is dangerous. I am very interested (seriously, I am

).

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Friday, September 27, 2002 10:25 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

I just wanna say, Novagrass, you have just earned about 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 brownie points with me.

________________

"You still don't get it. It's not about right, not about wrong... It's about Power." —Morph-O-Monster, "Lessons"

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Friday, September 27, 2002 11:18 AM

KALIMAC

Obviously when I say atheism is "dangerous" I mean only to a person's soul.

Try to understand my viewpoint. I will express my beliefs only as that (though I would rather put them forth as Truth, the perceived lack of perspective that would portray would probably invalidate my arguments).

As a Christian I believe the most important thing is keeping your soul safe. That is, getting right with God, cause otherwise you're gonna be stuck without him for a very, very long time.

Okay, given my perspective, Atheism is the most dangerous viewpoint of all because one has already ruled out the possibility of the existence of God. At least someone who is already willing to believe in God has a chance at seeing (I was going to say "the Truth", but instead let us say:) the way Christians do.

And I refer to Atheism as a religion only to simplify my sentence. I mean it only in the sense that it is (really) a belief system. I agree that "religion" is quite a devastating thing at times. Christianity isn't (or shouldn't be) a "religion". It's about a relationship with your Creator, not a set of arbitrary rules.

Anyway, hope that clears up (slightly) what I was trying to say. (And again, I'm not trying to argue for Christianity here. Just explain where we are, or should be, coming from.)

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Friday, October 11, 2002 3:13 PM

DARKANGELSLAYER

Is atheism the same as being non-religious?

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Friday, October 11, 2002 4:11 PM

PEDME84

it's funny how this guy complains about god being nowhere in buffy right before spike comes back and keeps talking about the christian god. that scene where he's burning on the cross: omigod, i died!

i am someone who is absolutely fascinated by Faith and the love in it and the power of it. i'm completely spellbound by mysticism and mystical poetry.

so i'm very exited about this, if they do it right that is. you can celebrate religion without proseletyzing it.

as long as spike is loving god in a st. john of the cross, st. francis of assisi way and not a sit in the pews sing a hymn way, then it could really work wonders for the character and the show.

but anyway, i have not read through everybody's posts, cause there's a lot. but...

atheism is not a lack of religion. There's a whole unlistable spectrum of spiritual beliefs, activities, etc. that an atheist person can participate in. like i don't believe in a judeo-chistian god but i am a spiritual person. i guess i'd call myself monistic which is like there's this one unifying force that is everything and nothing. think emmersonian oversoul, which was influenced by the eastern religions, like hinduism. personally, i'd say that monism is at the root of every religion.

i don't think anyone writing buffy would say that what they show as witchcraft and "wicca" in any way resembles the real thing. they totally make that s,h,i,t up. in marti noxon's commentary on the dvd she says how she started out looking things up and now just makes it all up.

sometimes when they use existing gods like osiris, it's more like it's reminiscent of the real thing. if we head into firefly the names probably mean nothing. unless with "persephone" joss wants to start out with a suggestion of a chthonic journey, but i'm not leaning towards it. i'll have to watch more. other times, they just use the name. like in first season of buffy they use, "Moloch the corrupter" um, not quite. moloch was a really evil guy, but he was seen as a manipulating and false god. he's all about the human sacrifice. they would ritually feed children to his statue and burn them in a way that it was like he was eating and digesting them. so cool!

"i have my own fun"

anyhooz, i just jumped at the chance to be able to post on something i spend a lot of time on.

later

- emily

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Saturday, October 12, 2002 8:33 AM

CHARLIEBLUE

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
Quote:
Originally posted by darkangelslayer:
Is atheism the same as being non-religious?
I think atheism implies a little more then just being non-religious. I'm of the mind to believe that atheism is a religion which believes in no god or perhaps the anti-religion, but I really can't see it as being just non-religious. There are too many atheists who hold to their beliefs far too zealously for me to think that their beliefs constitute nothing more then just a lack of religious belief.

Atheism is not a religion any more than theism is. Theism is simply the belief in God, and atheism is not believing in God. Thousands of Buddhist monks are atheists, and to claim that these are anti-religious monks is just silly.

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Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:54 PM

WESLEYWYNDHAMPRICE

In regards to those questioning what athiesm is or isn't, I don't know about the original meaning of the term, but I do know how it is applied by at least the majority of those claiming to be such. Athiests don't believe in any deity; not God, Buhda, Satan, none if it. Those that are more iffy about their religious viewpoints, i.e., aren't sold on their being a god(s) but not convinced there isn't, use the term agnostic. And then there are those who simply aren't religious -- a Catholic who hasn't prayed or blown the dust off his Bible in years, but if he has to mark a block on a standardized test, would mark "Christian" or "Catholic" more than likely.

I am a true-blue Christian, read my Bible and pray regularly, etc. And I'm a fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Like the author of the article in question, I don't see the elements in Buffy as being dangerous to my faith. I think the author did a great job in making his points about why Buffy is actually worthwhile viewing for Christians, and personally agree with them all.

As for those of my brethren who are overzealous in their desire to condemn the world, all I can say is there are radicals in every group. It's safe to say that the terrorists who crashed into the World Trade Center don't represent the Muslim faith as a whole; it's equally safe to say there are athiests who really aren't bothered by the words "In God We Trust" on the back of their money. So I find it fascinating that when a few Bible-thumpers go all holy-roller, so many want to believe they speak for all of us.

The Christian faith is one that teaches tolerance, and in my own specific denomination as a Methodist, it's one of our most harped-on principles. In the Bible, we're taught to hate sin, but love sinners; it's unfortunate that so many of my brethren overlook these teachings and go straight to condemnation.

The Bible also teaches that to follow any religion (a term I use in the broadest sense, to include believers, but the "religion" of non-beleivers as a demographic) that doesn't feature Jesus Christ as it's main character is to condemn one's self to eternal damnation. And this isn't just Wicca, satanism, athiesm, etc., but even widely accepted faith groups such as Muslim and (non-messianic) Judism (Gasp! God's chosen people, damned!). Many Jews in the New Testament were condemned by Jesus for their failure to accept the (Biblical) truth.

But what many Christians forget (and for this, I am sorry) is that while it is our responsibility to share our faith with as many as we can, it is not our responsibility to condemn anyone for any reason -- that's God's job and God's alone. In the end, the only soul I'm responsible for is my own; I can't even save or condemn my own children, that is a choice for them and them alone to do.

I'm sorry to any one who isn't a Christian and has felt oppressed by the Christian faith. In reality, a sin is a sin is a sin, and all are guilty -- the only sinless soul, according to Christian tradition, was Jesus himself. Which is why Jesus preached "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", to remind us as believers that no one, regardless of who they worship or don't worship, is any better or any worse than anyone else.

I don't have to agree with your choice of religion, no more than I expect you to agree with mine. Don't expect me to ever tell you that you are right to believe what you believe, although I will always fight for your right to believe it (that's actually a Methodist bylaw, by the way). But even though we disagree, there is nothing saying we can't live peaceably as friends and learn from each other.

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Thursday, November 14, 2002 7:36 AM

H20MAC3

I, like you, am a Christian. I commend your simple eloquence in describing our religion. It is not bound or defined by a house of worship. It is your relationship with God and the soul you have been given. At the end of your life it doesn't matter how many possessions you have, how powerful you were or who you know. You stand before God with nothing but your soul. It's the only thing you can take with you when you die. And how did you care for that soul?

Christianity it's self is very simple. It has been corupted through the centuries by people. People who feel threatened if you don't believe as they do. Corrupted for power and control. Will eating fish on Friday guarantee you a seat in heaven? Can God hear you only from one building? Will watching BTVS endanger your soul? Get real, No one human can say for certain (altho they may try) if you're going to heaven or hell. Only God can make that judgement.

Yes, many atrocities have been committed by people of different religions in God's name. Given the state of the world today many more are coming. It's easy to point the finger at Christianity and say "you are to blame". Islam has also been spread at the point of a sword. Atheists have been in there too. Do you remember Stalin? Pol Pot of Cambodia? Tianamen Square? Lay the blame where it belongs - ignorance, intolerance, greed/envy and hate. It's that simple.

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Thursday, November 14, 2002 9:27 AM

HARRIET VANE

First off, I want to say that I agree with Kalimac on most of his (i assume) Points.
As a christian I don't want to bash

anyone eleses religion. Not becaus I don't think they're wrong, but becaus I want to respect they're choices. I mean, I belive, I have faith, but I know I don't know everything, and God's will and plan are way, WAY out of my leaug.

Anyways, THE POINT, is that I just think it's great that a TV show, Firefly, Buffy, Angel, whatever, makes people think about Religion. It's one of the most importaint things in most people's lives and these shows are the only one besides the

drama 7th Heaven that dare to adress the issue. And they are the only ones that address it with any amount of intergrety. Kudos to Joss and Kudos to everyone who thinks about issues because of his show!

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Wednesday, May 14, 2003 11:15 PM

ARIANDE

Do you think that Joss Whedon has researched Wicca? It really irritates me when he takes Wicca and witch to mean the same thing. I myself am a Wiccan, but not a witch. I believe they are two completely separate things, and people often mistake them to mean the same thing. If I mention to someone about my religious beliefs, they almost always say something along the lines of "OMG do you do spells and stuff?? do they work??"

This is a constant annoyance to me, although I suppose it is my own fault as well, if I should choose to talk about my religion, then I should expect to explain it.

Also another thing that annoys me is the constant mix up of Wicca and Satanism. The two should not be mixed up, and I think that it derives from early times when many people with pagan beliefs were branded 'witches' and therefore were Satanists as well...and some people still think like this.

I wish that people would practise what they preach and actually follow their own supposed 'morals' of tolerance and nonjudgemental behaviour.

Alright, I'll stop ranting on now :)

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Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:49 AM

SERGEANTX

I'm not a big Buffy fan, but I did see one episode, something about a werewolf, where they seemed to address this issue pretty clearly in the script. In an offhand way the 'witch' character in the show, Tara(edit: I've been informed it was Willow) I think it is, mentions how she's annoyed with modern day witches that "don't even cast real spells or anything". It seemed to be a pretty clear attempt to seperate the fantasy 'witchcraft' of the show from modern pagan religion. In defense of the people who do mix the two up, I've met a fair number of so-called Wiccans who do embrace Satanism or claim to have the power to affect the real world with 'spells'. I never worried about it too much because, nothing personal, but it all seems pretty loopy to me.

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

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Thursday, May 15, 2003 3:52 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Ok brief religious lesson by someone who has studied the stuff. Atheism is the belief in the non-existence of god, whether or not you count it as a religion depends on your definition of religion.

Christianity is loosely defined as the following of the teachings of Jesus. A stricter definition is the belief that Jesus is the son of god. Some say that it must include the belief that he is the son and also god, but that rules out many Christians for being Christians. Much of Christianity is also based in part off of the teachings of Paul, which I find unfortunate as he was a homophobe (Corinthians is the best example) and a sexist (also Corinthians) which goes against the teachings of Jesus (see Mary Magdiline.)

Of the original 6 Christian sects most (at least four, perhaps five) believed that everyone regardless of religion or sin went to heaven (they got this from a variety of places including Revelations.) Nero was not nice, many Christians died, what remained became Catholicism, later that broke up into what we have now (including present day Catholicism).

Worshipers of Satan were mostly in catholic churches in the period between about 1800 and about 1850, these were called Satanists but now the term refers to an entirely different group of people. Witches were social outcasts, neopagans, and people on drugs; for the most part. The people on drugs did do the broomstick thing, and believed themselves to be flying as a result of the drugs.

Buddhism is split into two portions one is atheist, the other believes that Buddha is god, or a god.
Hinduism is monotheistic in the same way that Christianity is even when they say the father the son and the holyghost.

Wicca in its most often practiced form is a general mishmash of what remains of a variety of polytheistic religions. I don’t know much about the other forms.

Samaritans were once Jews but by the time of Jesus had become a different religion that the Jewish temple priests didn’t like very much.

Human morals going back millions of years is a laugh (sorry guy) unless you mean that cannibalism and rape are part of the human morals, plus humans don’t go back all that far.

Al lot of Christian iconography is a mishmash in the same way that Wicca is with beliefs. The devil comes from a neopagan god, but before that was (and still sometimes is) represented by Pan who is an old pagan god. The face of Christ as most of us know it is in fact copied from the statue of Zeus, the image of Mary holding Jesus is straight from Isis an Egyptian god.

I hope this helps someone. I tried to cover a lot but really covered far less, it’s just that I saw so many people saying wrong things that I thought all of my religious research might actually help someone.

Also worthy of note, the Pope said that Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, and Buddhist faiths would all get you into heaven, he also added that non Catholic Christians could make the cut, and everyone else would eventually get in, just not necessarily so fast.
This is a really big deal because it goes against the established Catholic doctrine which says that they are the only way to god, and it also lies in the face of eternal damnation. To my knowledge there has been no attempt to reconcile what he has said with what came before, so for Catholics this replaces the old stuff.
I think it’s a bold move, and a very cool thing to do, but then again I take special pride in this pope because I am part Polish.

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Thursday, May 15, 2003 10:03 PM

CARCHARIAS

>Hinduism is monotheistic in the same way that >Christianity is even when they say the father >the son and the holyghost.

Sure, many Hindus believe that one particular diety (Brahma) is the source of all things but given the many forms the divine takes I'd hardly call it monotheistic. Always kills me when someone refers to me as a "godless heathen". I mean, hell, I've got more than they do!

"If you're gonna make jokes, I'm gonna pull out your ribcage and wear it as a hat."

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Friday, May 16, 2003 8:34 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Carcharias:
>Hinduism is monotheistic in the same way that >Christianity is even when they say the father >the son and the holyghost.

Sure, many Hindus believe that one particular diety (Brahma) is the source of all things but given the many forms the divine takes I'd hardly call it monotheistic. Always kills me when someone refers to me as a "godless heathen". I mean, hell, I've got more than they do!

"If you're gonna make jokes, I'm gonna pull out your ribcage and wear it as a hat."

That is an interesting way to look at it, do people really call you a "godless heathen"? If they do I'm sorry, it's wrong on so many levels to disrespect someone’s religion, but when it comes right down to it, it is just plain rude.

Hinduism is practiced in so many different way that there is no way I could cover in a lifetime everyone’s view of it, but many, perhaps even most, would call it monotheistic. And that would be in the same way that one would call Christianity monotheistic, personally I could never get my head around the idea of the simple three equals one of the trinity, the very, very many equals one of Hinduism is probably beyond me.

That said I yield to a Hindu in explaining whether to call if monotheistic or polytheistic if there are many gods, but they are all one. I think that the term pantheism is probably the best one to use. Anyway in this case I don’t think that it really maters whether you call it mono- or polytheistic, if you know what you’re talking about you know that they mean the same thing.

So if you say it should be called polytheistic, I'm fine with that. It's not my religion, who am I to say?

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Friday, August 22, 2003 6:41 AM

RITA

Okay i know this will sound wack but i do believe the angel losing his soul was cautionary about the dangers of premarital sex well young premarital sex anyway. I say this as 25 year old celibate agnostic. I am celibate because i just don't need that kind of drama in my life and agnostic because God gods or a higher spirit doesn't make a whole lot of sense to meand but neither does quatum physics and that probably real. i don't condemn the religous just the fundamentalists. i do agree in part with the Christian who said Buffy espouses sound morals
there is a lot of loyalty integerity and decency demonstrated on the show and people sacrificing for the greater good and even the VILLIANS ARE MONGAMOUS i really can't spell today forgiveme please

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