holtz by est120

ANGELUS ARCANUM

holtz

POSTED BY: EST120
UPDATED: Saturday, July 9, 2005 03:16
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 7337
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Thursday, December 9, 2004 3:10 AM

okay, yet another angel post. what are people's opinions of holtz? he seems to be driven completely by the concept of "you hurt me, so i am going to hurt you even more". his quest is not so much about stopping angelus and darla (and other vampires) from killing people, but rather to torture them with a kind of revenge motive since they killed his family. holtz seemingly has a number of opportunities to kill angelus or darla and yet he makes the standard TV villain mistake in that he talks too much or takes too long and thus opens the door for the inevitable angelus escape. my question is do you feel this makes the character more interesting or more villainous? do people feel this revenge sentiment is completely justified?

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 5:59 AM

DIETCOKE

I think he's primary motive is pure revenge. He is driven by hate and wants to inflict as much pain as he can on Angel and Darla.

I think revenge is never justified. If we can't forgive others for the wrongs they have done us, then we then become evil too.

I like that we have a motive for him being evil and know why he feels justified in his behavior. Much more interesting than a character that is just an evil demon.

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 7:04 AM

RHYMEPHILE

I never considered Holtz evil, because he's avenging the murder of his family. He's not out to randomly cause pain or death for fun like the vampires, nor is he in it to profit in some way. He's also not in it just because he can. He's not evil. He wants revenge, and he sure deserves it after what Darla and Angelus did.

The worst thing, IMO, about what Angelus and Darla did was to kill Holtz's daughter. Not that killing Holtz's family wasn't bad, but Holtz has every right to hunt down Angelus and Darla for what they did to his child. I think that was one aspect of Angelus and Darla (and Spike and Dru for that matter) that made them *totally* evil: killing children and babies.

If anything, Holtz is completely justified in what he has done to track down Angel (who he still believes is Angelus) and kill him.

Of course Holtz is not going to kill the lead of the show, but some part of me always regretted he didn't do more.

And Est, tell us where you are in your Angel viewing so whenever we respond we know where to put spoilers.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 7:19 AM

EST120

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
I never considered Holtz evil, because he's
And Est, tell us where you are in your Angel viewing so whenever we respond we know where to put spoilers.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

gather 'round young ones and let me tell you the tale of my bizzare angel viewership. last may when the series finale of angel was about to air, i had seen one or two partial episodes. i was intrigued, but did not watch regularly because i kept forgetting. anyway, i missed the first half of the finale, watched the last half and loved it. i watched the rebroadcast of the entire finale a couple weeks later. when i moved, i got basic cable and started getting TNT which i discovered was showing angel reruns at 5pm every weekday (save the occasional golf tournament). when i started taping the 5pm episodes, they were about midway through season 3. later, i discovered that WB would show one rerun at 4pm on saturday afternoons. i taped a couple of those too (which was at the end of season 2). i gave up on that when TNT started showing reruns at 8am on weekdays and starting with the pilot. i also taped the 5pm until the series finale which was about a month ago and now i just tape the 8am (the 5pm has started over again at season 1). currently, the 8am rerun is about 3 or 4 episodes into season 3 so there are only about 6-7 episodes that i have not seen. i also missed the 100th episode in season 5 because i did not set my VCR correctly. anyway, to make a long story short (too late, i know), do not worry about spoilers, i have no problems with them.

on that note, watching the reruns in order from the pilot has been much more gratifying, even if i know what happens later.

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 7:35 AM

RHYMEPHILE

Oh, you missed the 100th episode in Season 5, huh? There's important stuff happening in that one. You'll need to rent it as *soon* as Season 5 comes to DVD in February, if only for the great line when Angel is called a "tit". Bwahahahahaaa!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 7:38 AM

EST120

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
Oh, you missed the 100th episode in Season 5, huh? There's important stuff happening in that one. You'll need to rent it as *soon* as Season 5 comes to DVD in February, if only for the great line when Angel is called a "tit". Bwahahahahaaa!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

true. i know it was a big episode. you should have seen my face when i started my tape and ended up watching maury povich or something stupid like that. i did read the episode summary from buffy-vs-angel.com which is not the same as seeing it, but it helped the rest of the season make sense.

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 1:30 PM

GROUNDED

I thought the 100th ep was cack.

Anyway, more to the point, Holtz is not just intent on getting revenge, he is obsessed with it. Simply showing up and killing both vampires without relishing it isn't going to happen. Yes they probably should have done more, have him grieviously wound Angel perhaps, but I don't think the effect was lost. The one thing that still nags me about it is the last line uttered in Lullaby...

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 5:31 PM

RABIT

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
I never considered Holtz evil, because he's avenging the murder of his family. He's not out to randomly cause pain or death for fun like the vampires, nor is he in it to profit in some way. He's also not in it just because he can. He's not evil. He wants revenge, and he sure deserves it after what Darla and Angelus did.

Really?

So while I was at work, I typed up this long explanation of my thoughts on this. The network puked and I caught my explanation in my lap...

Then I get home and here's exactly the opposite of what I wiped off my pants!

See, if someone were good and they lost their family as Holtz did, in my opinion, they would not go out and hunt down those responsible to get revenge. They would not capture and torture those responsible. Destroying them as the demons that they are, yes, that makes sense and is what a good person would do.

An evil person, however, would go out and torment them, torture them, maybe even, oh, say kidnap their child and corrupt the youth's mind to hate his father...

In my mind, Holtz had a number of choices, and at each of these points he made the choice that a person of evil would make. For example, when he discovered that Angel was cursed, that he had a soul, he decided that it was an opportunity to be taken advantage of in his efforts to bring Angel pain and misery, not as a moral question of right and wrong (as Sahjhan assumed he would). That is the act of an evil man...

But hey, that's just my opinion.

Rabit

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Friday, December 10, 2004 1:14 AM

GROUNDED

Given his state of mind after what Angelus and Darla had done to him, I don't think Holtz can be held responsible for his actions.

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Friday, December 10, 2004 5:51 AM

RHYMEPHILE

Quote:
Originally posted by Rabit:
*snip* An evil person, however, would go out and torment them, torture them, maybe even, oh, say kidnap their child and corrupt the youth's mind to hate his father... *snip*

Holtz, if you remember, let Connor live after he saw Darla dust herself to give birth to him. He could have killed them all in that alley, but let them walk away. Holtz wanted Angel dead, but instead decided that his revenge would be to claim Connor for the child he lost to Angelus. Warped thinking, true, but Holtz has had years and years to think and brood about the loss of his loved ones to Angelus and Darla.

But I suppose in my mind -- and this is why I empathize with Holtz -- forgiving Angel (even though he has a soul) is similar to forgiving a murderer who has found religion in prison and is a "changed man," much like the Angel/Angelus character duality. Having a soul and trying to make up for all the pain and misery Angelus caused doesn't do anything for the people already dead, and I think Holtz sees this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

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Friday, December 10, 2004 6:20 AM

RABIT

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
Holtz, if you remember, let Connor live after he saw Darla dust herself to give birth to him. He could have killed them all in that alley, but let them walk away. Holtz wanted Angel dead, but instead decided that his revenge would be to claim Connor for the child he lost to Angelus. Warped thinking, true, but Holtz has had years and years to think and brood about the loss of his loved ones to Angelus and Darla.

But I suppose in my mind -- and this is why I empathize with Holtz -- forgiving Angel (even though he has a soul) is similar to forgiving a murderer who has found religion in prison and is a "changed man," much like the Angel/Angelus character duality. Having a soul and trying to make up for all the pain and misery Angelus caused doesn't do anything for the people already dead, and I think Holtz sees this.

Yep - watched that ep just before posting my earlier comments, comically enough!

I took his allowing Conner and Angel (and Fred) to live not as an act of mercy or anything of the sort. He decided that killing them there was going to be too easy, that he could do much greater harm to Angel by allowing him to go. He wasn't being merciful - in fact, he immediately answered Sahjhan's accusatinos by saying that he would show no mercy.

The man's letting hate rule him. I honestly feel a lot of sympathy for him and what was done to him. But he chose to go down this road, good judgement or not. There were decisions, and he made them. No offense to anyone who feels Holtz is a good man or anything, but I honestly feel that he became what he had previously hated: a monster.

Rabit

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Friday, December 10, 2004 7:28 AM

GROUNDED

He wasn't being merciful - in fact, he immediately answered Sahjhan's accusatinos by saying that he would show no mercy.

This is why I hate that 'And I won't' line at the end of Lullaby - I don't think it's in character for Holtz at that point, having just witnessed the birth.

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Friday, December 10, 2004 7:45 AM

MAUGWAI

Holtz is completely justified in hating Angelus. Even some of the things he does to him are completely justified. But Holtz stepped over the line when he hurt Connor. He used him to get his revenge, putting Connor in a position to take the punishment for what his father did. His last act in this world was to cause Connor pain and turn him onto his own quest for vengeance. That's what makes him evil in my mind.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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Friday, December 10, 2004 8:01 AM

RABIT

Quote:
Originally posted by maugwai:
Even some of the things he does to him are completely justified.

Do you think that torture in the name of revenge is justified? Personally, I could never justify what he was doing to Angelus back in the 1800's, that time that he caught him. He even said that he was going to make it take days... *shudder*

Sorry, but I just can't justify torture as a means of revenge. I don't care what someone has done - it won't change what they've done and it won't make anyone feel better.

But, again, just my opinion. I understand that other people feel differently.

Rabit

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Friday, December 10, 2004 9:04 AM

GROUNDED

Torture could have been significant within a religious context - doesn't he bring some Inquisitor like guy in to 'purge' the demon?

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Monday, December 13, 2004 4:36 AM

IDEFIX

Holzt is worse than Angelus.

he is human, he has a soul and he choses to ignore it and hunt and torture and kill and even turn an innocent child against his father in the name of revenge. revenge is not justice. it's never justified. killing to prevent future criemes might be justifable in certain situations if there is absolutely no other way but killing or torturing after a crime is just as bad as any other killing. it's a choice to do evil.

we all get wronged sometime in life the good guys learn to live with it, maybe try to prevent it from happening to others. the evil ones get consumed by revenge and go over to the other side being no better as the ones that wronged them in the first place. "tooth for tooth" that's not justice that's primitive hate.

just my 2 euro-cent
Idefix

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Monday, December 13, 2004 4:43 AM

GROUNDED

I don't agree. Holtz is not a sane man. Why? Because he's been driven to do terrible things by the actions of Angelus and Darla. He's not evil, he's just very, very messed up.

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Monday, December 13, 2004 5:18 AM

RABIT

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Torture could have been significant within a religious context - doesn't he bring some Inquisitor like guy in to 'purge' the demon?

Yeah, but I wouldn't agree that this is what he was doing. In Joss's Buffyverse, it's understood by those who know that you can't get rid of a vampire's demon like that. I didn't get the impression from that scene that they were doing it to purge the demon so much as torture it, but that was just my impression - I could very well be wrong!

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
I don't agree. Holtz is not a sane man. Why? Because he's been driven to do terrible things by the actions of Angelus and Darla. He's not evil, he's just very, very messed up.

I would say that he is both. River is messed up, but she doesn't go around torturing anyone - anyone we can't spare.

I'll agree that Holtz isn't quite right, but I would not say that he does not have his mental facilities about him when he's making these choices. Peronsally, I think that he's thoroughly cognizant of what he's doing and why he's doing it. He just doesn't care. That's not the same as someone who can't distinguish fantasy from reality (such as River) or someone who doesn't have the social norms to fall back on. He used to know and agree with those norms, but when he lost his family he chose to cast those aside - in my opinion.

In the episodes that showed his back story, I saw him grieve and I saw his resolution gel into hatred, but I didn't really see him lose his sanity or in some other way snap. I could be missing it, but I just don't see it.

But the beauty of this is that we can all have our own interpretations and it still works.

Rabit

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Monday, December 13, 2004 5:20 AM

IDEFIX

ok, that's a very real possibility here.

I just don't tend to excuse evil deeds by citing harsh lifeconditions. I think we're human because we have the choice to act like we want to and we're responsible for what we do always and under any circumstances.

just as a (probably very bad) example:
I've been driven to fleeting thoughts of murdering my own father because he's a drinking, fight-loving bastard that terrorized my mum and myself for years. but I don't think that gives me an excuse to actually do anything to him, apart from going away and never looking back and getting my mum to do the same. we're much happier now and I really don't care how he feels.

it sure is a comparison lacking in severity, I've not been physically harmed, no one has been killed. but getting yelled at for nothing at all at your own home for years on end get's even a gentle nice person mad someday. I can understand how having your family killed get's a man mad but giving into that isn't gonna help. If there was no Slayer (vampire-police) around he might have been justified to kill Angelus and Darla to prevent them from killing anyone else's family but that wasn't his objective. Holzt might have had a life and maybe even some happiness had he gotten over himself and actually led his life instead of giving into revenge and going mad over what happened to him.

I think it's either the choice of a very weak man or the choice of an evil man. and he never seemed weak to me. but he's responsible for this choice either way. you can't just go around torturing whomever for the 'good' cause. there's no such thing as "justified revenge" or "good torture" in my book.

but then again maybe I just didn't like him very much ;o)

and as we germany say: "nothing get's eaten as hot as it is cooked." we're just arguing for the sake of it anyways. Holtz was a good villain for the show. that much we can surely agree upon.

Idefix

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Monday, December 13, 2004 6:43 AM

MAUGWAI

Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
I think it's either the choice of a very weak man or the choice of an evil man. and he never seemed weak to me. but he's responsible for this choice either way. you can't just go around torturing whomever for the 'good' cause. there's no such thing as "justified revenge" or "good torture" in my book.

Normally I'd agree, but Angelus is a demon. Holtz does not see him as a man. The things the demon did were pure, unadulturated evil. The same way the gypsies punished Angelus in their way, Holtz wishes to punish him as well. And I'm fairly certain that if any one of us had to kill our own child after finding the rest of our family dead, we'd feel pretty justified.

It's true that torture wouldn't accomplish anything positive other than to give Holtz some satisfaction, but would any of us want to do any less?

Angelus deserves no sympathy. Angel, on the other hand, does. Hotlz' problem is that he makes no distinction between the two.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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Monday, December 13, 2004 6:55 AM

IDEFIX

and I think getting satisfaction out of torturing or killing someone for whatever reason is either evil or sick or maybe insane. it certainly is not a good thing, no matter if the one being tortured or killed is a demon, evil, or whatever else. it's about the act, the motivations for it and the feelings associated with it not about whom it's done to.

if I have to kill someone or something because I have to, I will do it. but I'm sure I won't feel happy or satisfied or anything else like that about it. maybe relieved that the danger's over. and surely sad that it had to come to that. and possibly sick about it all.

but revenge and the justification of it is nothing new. it's a wide spread believe. I just don't share that believe. and that makes me think that Holtz is evil. Justin seems more weak and guided by ignorance and passion. Holtz seems in control and very calculating.

Idefix

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Monday, December 13, 2004 8:06 AM

GROUNDED

"Holtz seems in control and very calculating."

That's not necessarily an indication of a sound mind.

Anyway I disagree with the idea that his desire for revenge is based in evil. Angelus and Darla visited terrible psychological harm on him and he dedicated his life to bringing them to justice. It doesn't take much imagination to see how that would turn into obsession. Basically, as proven by his agreement with Sahjahn, his entire life was consumed in the pursuit of this goal. The fact that this ends up twisting his perception of right and wrong is hardly surprising, in fact I'd say it's expected.

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Thursday, February 17, 2005 2:46 PM

SHANYU

Quote:
Originally posted by est120:
okay, yet another angel post. what are people's opinions of holtz? he seems to be driven completely by the concept of "you hurt me, so i am going to hurt you even more". his quest is not so much about stopping angelus and darla (and other vampires) from killing people, but rather to torture them with a kind of revenge motive since they killed his family. holtz seemingly has a number of opportunities to kill angelus or darla and yet he makes the standard TV villain mistake in that he talks too much or takes too long and thus opens the door for the inevitable angelus escape. my question is do you feel this makes the character more interesting or more villainous? do people feel this revenge sentiment is completely justified?

Holtz is not really evil, even angel see's his motive. Holtz has a right to want revenge against angelus or even angel for that matter. Holtz's entire concept is angel and darla will pay as much as he can make them though there is no way he can make them suffer the horrors he did... until he see angel has a son. He did not let angel go out of sympathy because he knows what its like to be a father like i originally though but instead he let angel go because he saw at that moment the one thing he could do in order to make him pay just as much as he did, he could make angel feel the way he did when his family was killed.

"You can live with a man for fourty years , share his meals, talk on every subject, then tie him up, and hold him over the volanoes edge. And on that day, you will finally meet the man"

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Tuesday, July 5, 2005 6:22 PM

ERRHEAD

Holtz started out as a good man, at least by the standards of his time, which is radically different than our time. a hard man, a dedicated and pious man, a great vampire hunter
after angel and darla destroyed his family it became personal, twisted, and touched through with evil.
that he made a deal with a demon to get his revenge was a definite sign that he had lost the mission, and he just went downhill from there. spending 16 years in a hell dimension and then giving his own life just to screw with angel's head.

screwing around with torture and revenge is evil, if only because it leaves the opportunity for them to do more damage if they escape. Just put 'em down quickly, like wesley did with knox

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Saturday, July 9, 2005 2:51 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
I think revenge is never justified. If we can't forgive others for the wrongs they have done us, then we then become evil too

2 things. 1, you presume that we're not part evil to begin with? I think every human has the potential for some evil in them.
2. Revenge is NEVER justified? I get what you're meaning, but I find that view a bit overly simplistic and utopian. Real world don't work like that.

Just my 2 cents.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, July 9, 2005 3:16 AM

DIETCOKE

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
I think revenge is never justified. If we can't forgive others for the wrongs they have done us, then we then become evil too

2 things. 1, you presume that we're not part evil to begin with? I think every human has the potential for some evil in them.
2. Revenge is NEVER justified? I get what you're meaning, but I find that view a bit overly simplistic and utopian. Real world don't work like that.

Just my 2 cents.

We all have the potential to be evil. Do I think in the world people feel justified in their revenge? Absolutely. Do I think it is right? No. We have a choice. We can choose to forgive. I've seen too many people destroy their lives because they couldn't forgive someone. Instead, the became bitter, angry, humans who no longer had anything to contribute to others.

NY/NJ Browncoats: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly_nyc

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