Angel's return from hell by Zeek

ANGELUS ARCANUM

Angel's return from hell

POSTED BY: ZEEK
UPDATED: Saturday, January 15, 2005 13:25
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VIEWED: 5420
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Friday, January 7, 2005 12:41 PM

I don't even know if this belongs here since technically it happened on Btvs, but I'll post it here anyway.

So Buffy sends Angel to hell to stop the whole world from being sucked into there. I follow that one. Then Angel just reappears out of thin air literally. Why?

They never explained this to any great extent that I ever caught on to. There was one episode about it that I remember with the first. Though in that episode I think even Buffy said that this evil thing is taking credit for bringing him back but they have no reason to believe it. The first didn't even explain why it would have brought him back. Also in that episode I thought the first was trying to get Angel to kill himself the whole time. Why bring someone back just to have them kill themself?

For such a major plot point you'd think they would have taken some time to explain what really happened and why. Did I miss something? Was there more explination in a commentary or Joss interview or a comic? anything?

Insight would be appreciated.

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Friday, January 7, 2005 2:26 PM

MALSDOXY

I know what did this...

i believe they did explain it somewhat...about the 'Champion Eternal' -in the scrolls Wolfram and Hart were always talking of those... and redemption, the Oracles spoke of that, too...i just thought it was a cool way to re-introduce Angel back into the series.

"Haven't you killed me enough for one day ?"
- Mal, War Stories

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Saturday, January 8, 2005 10:40 AM

DIRTYBROWNCOAT

The First didn't try and get Angel to kill himself.

The First tormented and tortured Angel with visions of his past, and tried to convice him to "take" and kill Buffy so he'd revert to Angelus. To keep from succumbing to the First's torture, Angel decided to try and kill himself. The First figured that this was just as good, because at least it wouldn't have Angel mucking up it's plans.

Anyway, in season 4 they said that Angel's return was entirely to help bring about Jasmine.

But I think that's BS, personally.

Simon: You...you came for us.
Mal: You're on my crew.
Simon: Right. I guess I just didn't...you don't even like me.
Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?
-Safe

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Saturday, January 8, 2005 11:11 AM

EMBERS

I'm currently reading
Reading the Vampire Slayer
An Unofficial Critical Companion to Buffy and Angel
edited by Roz Kaveney

and they hold that it was never fully explained:
whether Angel's return from Hell was triggered by Buffy's return to the place of his death
dropping the ring on the floor
or whether it was just TPTB messing with them...

certainly it made a good device for the writers,
that the moment Buffy was ready to bury the past
and try to move on...

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Saturday, January 8, 2005 12:12 PM

JEWEL

There were a few explanations given in BtVS and AtS. Nothing concrete, though, so it may well be explained a different way in the future (which I like).

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Monday, January 10, 2005 6:50 AM

ZEEK

Well that's just annoying. It's alway irked me that they couldn't give us a reason for his return. It's almost like they killed him one season because it would be big and dramatic but then they brought him back cause "well you can't kill Angel he's too important". Gotta present a better reason than that.

Would everyone have accepted it if Season 6 of Buffy started with Buffy falling out of thin air and all the characters just accepting it and moving on from there?

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Monday, January 10, 2005 7:26 AM

GROUNDED

It was strongly suggested many times that the TPB had brought him back.

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Monday, January 10, 2005 9:54 AM

WEASY

Because it snows at the end of Amends to prevent Angel from killing himself that implies that TPTB brought him back and wanted to keep him there - presumably because they wanted him on their side in the End of Days, and not that long later they sent Doyle to help him.

I think it's probably one of those things Joss left not quite explained (like the Cheeseman) because he thought the crazy theories the fans came up with were great (and occasionally very funny)

Plus it's quite cool for them to have it like that because we don't know why Angel's really here and it amkes it really clear to teh audience that Angel doesn't know either - it kind of adds to his whole confusion about what his purpose is, and when people offer solutions, they all make sense to him and he believes them easily just to have an answer to this question... until it becomes obvious they're just using him - like Jasmine and the First did.

Anyway, that's just what I like to think...

Did anyone else think it was odd that having had all that initial interest in Angel that never reappeared in season seven of Buffy? I mean obviously it would have been impractical because DB couldn't really come over and shoot scenes... but it would have been nice to have the links back to the first appearance of The First.
That's completely off topic, sorry.

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Monday, January 10, 2005 10:07 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by Weasy:
it would have been nice to have the links back to the first appearance of The First.
That's completely off topic, sorry.

I really agree, I was disappointed that there wasn't at least a little more discussion about the First's first appearance...
and to get even further OT
I was disappointed that when Nina showed up on Ats that they didn't discuss Oz, you would think that the fact that Angel already knew a werewolf,
and one who had learned to control it,
would have been relevant....
JMPO

Anway, I agree w/you orginal point (to get back OT)
I love that Joss doesn't explain everything in detail
I love having somethings left to our imaginations
or for future shows (hopefully) to explain

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Monday, January 10, 2005 12:50 PM

GROUNDED

I'm sure I read somewhere Joss wanted Oz for S6. That would have been awesome.

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Monday, January 10, 2005 3:12 PM

DIRTYBROWNCOAT

I remember them talking about Buffy's encounter with the First from S3 at SOME point in S7, but it was totally contradictory as to what happened in Amend. In Season 7, Buffy talked about how dangerous the First was, and how she could feel it's power when she faced it and how it felt ancient and old and stuff...but in the episode itself, she just quips a bunch.

Also, when Angel returns in Chosen, he mentions that the First was "the entity that tried to get him to kill himself"... this wasn't the case in the episode, either.

Anyway, I was really hoping for some more crossover in the shows that year. I mean, Faith and Willow crossing over was cool, and the thing at the end with Angel was alright...but I still have this wacky theory that S4 of Angel and S7 of Buffy are secretly connected, or at least were going to be until they decided to go the insane "Jasmine" route with Angel.

Simon: You...you came for us.
Mal: You're on my crew.
Simon: Right. I guess I just didn't...you don't even like me.
Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?
-Safe

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Monday, January 10, 2005 4:06 PM

SOUTHERNSLAYER

Not trying to stray from the topic but was anyone else hopeing Whistler, Angel's mentor seen in buffy episode becomming would make an appearence in Angel at some point during its run?

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Monday, January 10, 2005 5:10 PM

AMYEL

Quote:
Originally posted by SouthernSlayer:
Not trying to stray from the topic but was anyone else hopeing Whistler, Angel's mentor seen in buffy episode becomming would make an appearence in Angel at some point during its run?

He was supposed to actually be a lead on Angel. Whistler was in the pilot script for Angel. There's probably a copy of it floating around on the Internet somewhere. But Max Perlich, the actor who played him, was unavailable (the rumour was that Max was in jail at the time but who knows what happened). So Joss instead created the character of Doyle to take his place.

Whistler could have showed up again later I guess, but I think that would have just highlighted the fact that Doyle was a modified Whistler.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 1:09 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by amyel:
So Joss instead created the character of Doyle to take his place.

Whistler could have showed up again later I guess, but I think that would have just highlighted the fact that Doyle was a modified Whistler.

Glenn Quinn auditioned for the part of Whistler, did an American version and then an Irish version, and Doyle was born.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 3:47 AM

OPTIMUS1998

Quote:
Originally posted by Weasy:
I think it's probably one of those things Joss left not quite explained (like the Cheeseman) because he thought the crazy theories the fans came up with were great (and occasionally very funny)B]

i remember reading somewhere that the whole reason for the cheeseman's existence was to basically mess with us, the fans.

...May have been the loosing side, Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Wednesday, January 12, 2005 9:59 AM

WEASY

You're right, I'm sure Joss is quoted saying that in an SFX interview at somepoint... he definately said it didn't actually mean anything anyway.

I only just got season one Angel, and most of my favourite episodes are the Glenn Quinn ones... but it feels really sad watching them, especially Hero. He's great though, I think I'd still rather have had him than Whistler - but yeah... a little Whistler would be nice.
It always annoyed me generally that nobody on either show would mention anything to do with the other show.
Especially in say, Spin the Bottle, the episode in which I spent the entire time going - why isn't Cordelia blaming this on Buffy? 'cos that's what she would actually have done if she reverted to her seventeen year old self...
Or when Angelus was released why did it take them like five episodes and countless dead people to just call Willow?
Okay. I'm just complaining now. There were some very good post-split episodes, I just wish 'Buffy' had become a dirty word.

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Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:01 AM

AMYEL

When Buffy moved over to UPN before its 6th season, the WB was PISSED. They told the Angel production team to try not to mention the name "Buffy" or anything else that has to do with her, and of course more crossover episodes were completely verboten. Though once it was announced that Buffy was in its final season, the WB finally let up and allowed the Faith/Willow/Angel crossovers at the very end.

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Thursday, January 13, 2005 8:47 AM

WEASY

Huh! I didn't think the WB were quite that evil...
actually, I was going to say but didn't for some reason in my last post that in some ways it worked quite well that no one on Angel mentioned Buffy because... well, gia wrote a really good fic where it was all part of Cordelia being evil (and changing her appearance dramatically to look like Buffy - hmm subtle) that she wouldn't let anyone talk about Buffy incase Angel realised what was going on...
I still quite like that theory.
But that was no excuse for everyone on Buffy to stop talking about Angel & co!

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Friday, January 14, 2005 2:57 AM

IDEFIX

I think I read somewhere that it was NOT the WB but rather UPN that didn't approve of the crossovers once the two shows where on seperate networks. they didn't want their new (and rescued by them) show to keep telling the people to switch over to the WB for Angel.

and I think it's understandable either way. sad but understandable. it would have worked much better if they had been on the same network all the time.
but better two more years of Buffy without much crossovers than no more Buffy at all. I really enjoyed the last two seasons of Buffy, even if no one mentioned Angel and co any more.

Idefix

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Friday, January 14, 2005 5:43 AM

AMYEL

Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
I think I read somewhere that it was NOT the WB but rather UPN that didn't approve of the crossovers once the two shows where on seperate networks. they didn't want their new (and rescued by them) show to keep telling the people to switch over to the WB for Angel.

I'm sure the UPN did that, but it's true about the WB as well. On the Angel season 3 DVD set, there's an interview with David Greenwalt and he said that the WB told them to stay away from Buffy as much as possible. They had to reason with the network, because Buffy had just died, and there's no way they couldn't at least mention it. Once the gang found out that Buffy was alive again, they had to move away from the whole subject of her after that.

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Saturday, January 15, 2005 1:25 PM

DIRTYBROWNCOAT

I'm pretty sure he said something similar on the commentary for Heartthrob - the network told them to stay away from the "B" word as much as possible, but they had to be like "Okay, we can do that, but she just died, we HAVE to deal with it."

As for Cordelia being her 17-year-old self in Spin the Bottle and not blaming it on Buffy, I guess it would've been a pretty cool thing if she'd made a comment or something. Never really thought about it.

Simon: You...you came for us.
Mal: You're on my crew.
Simon: Right. I guess I just didn't...you don't even like me.
Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?
-Safe

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