Angel in love with Cordy or with buffy? by hawaiiansgirl

Yeah, A/C was a crime - put the nails in the coffin of the Cordelia character. Angel/Buffy was more believable, but once they'd put an end to it they really should have made it final. Angel's appearance at the end of Buffy was so wrong it hurt.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 8:53 AM

Angel's love life was very confusing. He was all on again off again with Buffy from the start. Then there was sort of a thing between revived, human Darla. Then the unbelievable Cordy thing. Then the also unbelievable Nina thing.

It's just a mess. I don't think the writers could ever think of a good relationship for him. That or they wanted to make it a point that Angel wasn't meant to have a good relationship.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:48 AM

SHADESIREN

The whole Angel/Cordy thing drove me NUTS - I HATED it. It always seemed SO wrong.

Cordy's character really changed - right about the time she cut her hair, she became such a different person, and really lost her whole "Cordy" charm. I LOVED Cordy before.. then she just... wasn't Cordy anymore.

The new Cordy was ok, but I never liked her as much as the old Cordy. Add the Angel love thing, and it was just silly.

The Angel/Nina thing was so non-existent, I kept forgetting it was supposed to be there. It was like this silly last-ditch attempt to give poor Angel some kind of romance, but it just fell so flat.

And on top of all of it, it SO ruined the whole Buffy/Angel thing by making it seem kinda trivial - it wasn't a big True Love thing, it became just "we used to go out". That almost broke my heart.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 11:40 AM

The retconning of the curse so he could have sex with anyone but Buffy irritated me too.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 11:44 AM

STARPILOTGRAINGER

I don't think it was a retcon. I think it was a fair point that somebody finally realized a 'moment of perfect happiness' != sex... however, that being said, it was stupidly irresponsible to go from there to 'so, go have some sex!' I mean, yeah, it _probably_ won't lead to him losing his soul, but do you really want to take that chance?

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 1:05 PM

DIRTYBROWNCOAT

Even though they've always displayed Angel's moment of happiness as sex, I really don't believe that sex is the only way he can lose his soul, or that having sex automatically means he loses his soul.

Because otherwise, that tells me that they think the only moment of *true* happiness is an orgasm, and I just don't think that's the case.

I think that if Angel were ever to become completely guilt-free about his past, and things were going so great as to everything in his life was as perfect as can be (kind of what happened in Awakening, he could lose his soul without having sex. Like they said in later seasons, just because you have sex does NOT mean you are perfectly happy.

Anyway, as for Angel/Cordelia, I was never a fan. It just seemed to come out of nowhere - well, not NOWHERE. The two had chemistry together, but throughout the first two seasons there was a big emphasis on them as a family - family this, family that, blah blah. Then all of a sudden he falls in love with her? Blah. No thanks.

I really never saw Angel and Darla having anything going on after he got his soul back (I assume you're referring to season 2 of Angel where she comes back as a human). I always thought that, if anything, Angel felt a responsibility towards her because a.) she sired him and he felt some kind of connection, and b.) she was going through what he went through and he didn't want her to face it alone.

I don't think that, by the end of BtVS that Buffy/Angel would have worked anymore either. They had grown apart over the course of four seasons, and they just didn't fit anymore...

...and yeah, Angel's appearance in Chosen was pretty bashing of continuity...Angel all of a sudden wanting to get back with Buffy, despite the whole "Cordelia" thing, despite the fact that the whole reason he left was so that they WOULDN'T be tempted to be together? Not to mention the fact that, just a little while earlier on his OWN show, he had killed his only son, and then he was all happy-go-lucky, hearts and puppies.

Simon: You...you came for us.
Mal: You're on my crew.
Simon: Right. I guess I just didn't...you don't even like me.
Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?
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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 1:31 PM

I guess the sex != true happiness thing is fairly believable, but I was so ready in season 2 for Angel to lose his soul after the Darla thing. I expected Faith to be brought back then to stop him. I was so pumped. Then the big let down of not only is he not evil but that somehow made him all good again. Standard Joss making you think you're going one way only to be hit by a 180.

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Wednesday, January 12, 2005 3:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by StarPilotGrainger:
I don't think it was a retcon. I think it was a fair point that somebody finally realized a 'moment of perfect happiness' != sex... however, that being said, it was stupidly irresponsible to go from there to 'so, go have some sex!' I mean, yeah, it _probably_ won't lead to him losing his soul, but do you really want to take that chance?

It does make sense, I know, but considering they'd hammered the implications of the curse through so many times before it seemed a bit of a quick reversal. The point was that, even if there was a chance nothing would happen, Angel wasn't supposed to take the risk since the consequences could be so dire.

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Wednesday, January 12, 2005 3:30 AM

IDEFIX

I think it's pretty consistent. if you really fall in love woth the wrong person and you understand that it's wrong and can't work and you go away to not be tempted every day to make it easier for both of you then I think it's consistent that you'd be alone for a while and when you get too lonely you try to go out with old friends or let's say people that are there. being alone forever is pretty dull but there's just no getting over true love that's reciprocated and always there even years later. even if you know that it just happens to be wrong and impossible to live.

that said I believe he always loved Buffy and will probably always love her but it doesn't work with them because he's totaly happy with her and that's his curse. he felf responsible for Darla. he liked Cordy, respected her, felt attracted to her. he wanted to date again just for the fun of it with Nina. it always put a smile on his face when he thought about going out with Nina and that was worth it I think. she needed him to understand her problem and he needed her for some normal guy/girl fun.

so I didn't think it odd or out of character or whatever what he said to Buffy at the end of S7.

Idefix

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Wednesday, January 12, 2005 3:49 AM

JEWEL

To me, the whole assumption that Angel lost his soul soley because of sex seemed kind of silly. I got the "true happiness" part of him having sex with Buffy, and I understand why that particular event caused Angel to lose his soul. But it didn't make sense to me to always equate sex with happiness.

Wesley, since season 1 of Angel (in the episode "Eternity"), has said that sex != happiness, true or otherwise. He recognised that "true happiness" was a rare thing and the liklihood that Angel would experience it with just anyone was pretty much non existant.

To me, it's good that Angel recognised this, although it took him long enough. I never thought he should be celibate forever.

Now that said, I don't think he was ever really in love with Cordelia. They worked closely together for a long time and I know he cared about her and it even makes sense that the two of them would mistake their feelings for one another for love, but I don't think it was. They were best friends.

And Nina? I never bought that one. That whole relationship seemed contrived.

I think Angel will ultimately always be in love with Buffy. But he can't have her, so he should pursue other relationships.

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Wednesday, January 12, 2005 4:24 AM

AMYEL

I NEVER thought the Buffy/Angel relationship was so "OMG true love!!!!!!" like is was made out to be. They couldn't get along. They were madly in love with each other, and they believed that it was all "true love forever" but they didn't *know* each other. The funniest bit for me was when Angel bought Buffy Portuguese sonnets for her birthday. Yeah, she'd love that...

They kept breaking each others' hearts, then getting back together. They were a roller coaster. That's not real true love-- it's high school drama. Even if Angel could find away to remove his curse, get back with Buffy, and never lose his soul again, they wouldn't be able to last.

High school-era Buffy and Angel would have never lasted anyways even if he didn't lose his soul. I think she tried to put Angel's past in the back of her mind, but that stuff keeps coming up. If you're 250 years old-- you have emotional baggage. Can't get rid of that.

Buffy later became much darker and understood inner darkness and she probably can empathize with Angel a lot more, but now they're much different people. I'm sure they'll always be drawn to each other, but even if they could be together without consequences it would never be a "forever love".

Plus, I always thought part of Angel's connection to Buffy was some leftover Darla issues. Buffy and Darla had always been played off of each other as similiar opposites. Remember that Darla was the very first character shown on Buffy. Darla played the helpless "oh what's the sound, I'm so scared!" little blonde, then she killed the crap out of that guy. They play the same scenario with Buffy herself. Joss set the both of them up as playing against expectations.

Buffy is HUGELY influential to Angel, but it can't compare to Darla. Darla was his murderer, his mother figure, his teacher, his lover, and the mother of his child. 200+ years of history really leaves a mark, whether or not the influence was a postitive thing.

And Nina... well... obviously Angel is into small blondes. That's all that relationship was about.

Here's a bit of a transcript that pretty much sums up my entire opinion of Angel, Darla, and Buffy:

Angel: "Not a vampire at all, really. I mean, not any more. They brought her back as a human."
Magev: "This Darla girl - why'd they do that?"
Angel: "I don't know. But seeing her again... it's just..."
Magev: "It started the inner struggle."
Angel: "Yeah."
Magev: "She's not even the one that did this to you."
Angel: "No. It-it's still her, it's still Darla. It's - kinda hard to explain."
Magev: "What hard? You're obsessed."
Angel: "I guess I am, a little, yeah."
Magev: "You blame her."
Angel: "I suppose I do."
Magev: "You want to punish her."
Angel: "A bit..."
Magev: "At the same time you want to thank her."
Angel: "Thank her?"
Magev: "For the gift she's given you."
Angel: "Gift?"
Magev: "You're deeply ambivalent."
Angel: "Yeah, well, I am and I'm not."
Magev: "You need to get over her. - Okay, what does she look like?"
Angel: "She's beautiful. - Small, blonde..."
Magev: "Right. So here's what you do. You go out and find yourself some small, blonde thing. You bed her, you love her, you treat her like crap, you break her heart. You and your inner demon will thank me, I promise."
Angel: "Uhm..."

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Wednesday, January 12, 2005 5:09 AM

GWEK

I agree that Buffy (as well as Nina, the blonde cop from early "Angel", and probably another one or two I can't think of) all come from the Darla wellspring. It can get deeper, but, basically, they're all cute blondes who aren't what they at first appear to be.

All the later ones, Buffy included, are his effort to recapture his first, lost love. I think in his mind, he makes Buffy his "true" love because she's sort of a less dysfunctional version of Darla (that's saying a LOT).

Cordelia, regardless of what you think of the relationship, is the one that breaks the mold. Not only is she not his normal physical type, but, unlike the others, by the time he falls for her, he knows exactly who she has become, so she doesn't fall into the "little girl with surprise big powers" mold most of the others do (well, yeah, I guess she does, but not as clearly).

I think Angel and Cordelia is Mulder and Scully: Whereas in most other cases, there's an instant spark, A&C is about two people who spend a lot of time together, have a lot in common, and eventually DEVELOP chemistry because of that. It's basically an office crush.

Doesn't make it any less legitimate (hey, happens all the world over in offices and restaurants and other workplaces everywhere), bit it makes it totally different than the others.

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Wednesday, January 12, 2005 5:48 AM

EMBERS

I always felt that Joss & company did everything they could to foreshadow Angel/Cordy...
they were shown becoming closer,
being jealous of one another;
working together more like an old married couple.
They cared about each other, needed each other,
and for most people on the planet that is love.

I think the reason that fans didn't get it is because
most fans were so locked into the High School passion of Buffy & Angel
being true lurve.

With Mulder & Scully you didn't have any prior commitments hiding the attraction that was in front of you.

That said, I'll really get people mad by saying the writers can only do so much,
I don't think that CC or DB were subtle enough actors to show that they were pining for one another.
Not the way that AD could show Wesley pining for Fred.

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Wednesday, January 12, 2005 6:26 AM

RHYMEPHILE

jewel said:

Quote:
To me, the whole assumption that Angel lost his soul soley because of sex seemed kind of silly. I got the "true happiness" part of him having sex with Buffy, and I understand why that particular event caused Angel to lose his soul. But it didn't make sense to me to always equate sex with happiness.

I think it was always the emotional part of having sex with Buffy that caused him to lose his soul, not only the act itself.

That being said, if true happiness equals an emotional reaction rather than something physical, then why didn't we get Angelus when Connor was born? Wouldn't that be a moment of pure happiness? The way Angel mooned over that baby made me always expect he would experience that happy moment and eat Connor, which, heh, cool.

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Wednesday, January 12, 2005 6:53 AM

JEWEL

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:

I think it was always the emotional part of having sex with Buffy that caused him to lose his soul, not only the act itself.

Exactly!

Quote:

That being said, if true happiness equals an emotional reaction rather than something physical, then why didn't we get Angelus when Connor was born? Wouldn't that be a moment of pure happiness? The way Angel mooned over that baby made me always expect he would experience that happy moment and eat Connor, which, heh, cool.

I wondered about that, myself. I think the only thing keeping him from losing his soul there is that he could not feel content at all. Too much was going on with everyone trying to steal or kill the baby.

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Wednesday, January 12, 2005 8:04 AM

STILLSHINY

I for one, wanted to see the Angel / Cordy connection happen. Her getting all glowy & powerful was just crap to me. I wanted to see that in their own ways Cordy & Angel had achieved a place of redemption. The scene of Angel & Cordy laying on the bed with "baby" Connor. Now that was a scene of "love".

All the stupid pupply love / lust with Buffy was so adolescent. I saw the beginnings of a real relationship with Cordy.

All of Angel's trouble began because of Liam "chasin after the hotties wenching & all that rot" What was the difference with Buffy?

I think in Cordy Angel for a true love & joy that was lasting. Not "perfect moment" Moments don't last. Love does.

Anyway just my thoughts. Yep I loved Cordy, & I hated a goodly portion of the 4th season....except for Faith.......F-A-I-T-H.

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Saturday, January 15, 2005 1:33 PM

DIRTYBROWNCOAT

You guys make some good points about all of it leading back to Darla, but I don't think it's him trying to recapture his love. They've stated a ton of times over the course of his own series that Angel was involved with Darla, but he never *loved* her the way, for example, Spike loved Drusilla in season 2 of BtVS.

And you guys make good points about Connor's birth, but like somebody else said (sorry, I was just skimming the posts and I forgot to quote :) ), there was all kinds of crap going on at that point, like Holtz hunting them down, bunches of people out to kill the baby before it was even born, and Caritas had just been EXPLODED (which is an awesome scene). By the time they kind of took care of all of that, Connor was kidnapped to Quar'toth, so he was all sad and torture-y again.

Simon: You...you came for us.
Mal: You're on my crew.
Simon: Right. I guess I just didn't...you don't even like me.
Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?
-Safe

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Saturday, January 15, 2005 10:06 PM

MACBAKER

Quote:
Originally posted by hawaiiansgirl:
Think angel still loves buffy?
I think not.
I think he in love with cordy?

I feel that the perfect match for Angel, is Faith! They both have a past that will haunt them, and they both are commitment phobic. Lastly, no mater how good it gets, their relationship will never be "Perfect". As much as Angel may still love Buffy, he knows he can't risk losing his soul again. It's clear to me, that Angel is the only man Faith truely trusts. She broke out of Jail just to save him. They have much more in common with each other than he ever had with Buffy.

Angel was Buffy's first true love, but now, I think Spike is better suited for her. He wasn't cursed with a soul, he fought for one! He fought for a soul for one reason, and that was his love for Buffy. When Angel is Angelus, he has no love for anyone, including Buffy, but even without a soul, Spike knew he loved her, and he knew what he had to do to if he had any chance of winning her heart. Lastly, Spike was willing to sacrifice his life for Buffy, and to save the world, something Buffy can relate to.

I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.

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Sunday, January 16, 2005 1:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
I think it was always the emotional part of having sex with Buffy that caused him to lose his soul, not only the act itself.

Good point. Now go rewatch Awakening and see the writer's do another reversal.

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Wednesday, January 19, 2005 12:25 AM

HAWAIIANSGIRL

i dunno about darla but he still have connor

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Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:46 AM

EVILTOBZ

Quote:
Originally posted by DirtyBrowncoat:
And you guys make good points about Connor's birth, but like somebody else said (sorry, I was just skimming the posts and I forgot to quote :) ), there was all kinds of crap going on at that point, like Holtz hunting them down, bunches of people out to kill the baby before it was even born, and Caritas had just been EXPLODED (which is an awesome scene). By the time they kind of took care of all of that, Connor was kidnapped to Quar'toth, so he was all sad and torture-y again.

and don't forget how connor was born, not exactly the happiest of deliveries with darla dusting herself.

and there is quite a bit of realism in stuff like angel falling for cordy and still feeling for buffy too and all that. people go on about one true love and stuff like that, but people are entirely capable of having emotions for more than one person. in fact, i'd guess most of us have been there, to some extent at least. the fact that everything isn't just caut and dried, this is the way it is makes the shows much more interesting.

that and i never liked buffy/angel anyway.

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Wednesday, January 19, 2005 5:07 AM

MAUGWAI

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
I think it was always the emotional part of having sex with Buffy that caused him to lose his soul, not only the act itself.

Good point. Now go rewatch Awakening and see the writer's do another reversal.

Actually, I think "Awakening" enforces that point. With Buffy, the world wasn't perfect. They had just escaped danger, Buffy's party was ruined, and Dru and Spike were on the loose again. But one moment to possess Buffy, to be with her on an intimate level both physically and mentally, was all it took to make Angel completely happy.

When Angel was with Cordelia in his mind, he had to save the world, earn the love and respect of his son, and get the girl after she points out that the rest of the world is happy so he should relax. It took way more than just the girl to make Angel happy. He needed a perfect world to go with it.

[edited due to an amusing typo]

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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Wednesday, January 19, 2005 5:08 AM

The issue wasn't really should Angel have another love interest (cause that's pretty much a no-brainer) it's that they chose Cordelia who'd been used pretty much as a sister figure up until then.

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Thursday, January 20, 2005 7:18 AM

I didn't think of Cordy as a sister figure. She just seemed like a good friend. There was never really anything other than that though. Until they decided to make something happen between them.

Which just doesn't seem right to me. I have plenty of female friends. Some of them really good friends but I don't see any of them as potential romantic interests. I just don't see that type of thing happening realistically.

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Sunday, January 30, 2005 7:13 PM

DIRTYBROWNCOAT

Well, a lot in the earlier episodes (well, maybe not A LOT, but enough to notice), the trio (being Angel, Cordelia, and Wesley) would refer to the others as family. A nice example of this is To Shanshu in L.A..

So, yeah, I think it's valid to call Cordelia a sister figure. So when Cordelia and Angel began to bloom as a couple, it seemed kind of...weird, you know?

I mean, yeah, David Boreanez and Charisma Carpenter have pretty good chemistry on-screen, but it kind of flew in the face of the characters to exploit it in a romantic way, you know?

Simon: You...you came for us.
Mal: You're on my crew.
Simon: Right. I guess I just didn't...you don't even like me.
Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?
-Safe

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Monday, January 31, 2005 4:13 AM

^ Exactly :)

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Monday, January 31, 2005 9:09 AM

You know, I never understood the Angel/Cordy brother/sister accusations. I always conisdered the original trio of Angel/Cordy/Wes as one of a tight-knit group of colleagues who grew closer together in the face of their adversities. A/C never smacked of anything incestuous to me. I actually found the relationship quite endearing- largely on the grounds of its simplicity - it wasn't messy or overcomplicated (bar the terrible machinations of s4)- it was just a gradual development of feelings b/w two old friends who had come to share and experience so much together.

Having said that, A/C was such a criminally mishandled pairing - I think the writers tried to create "a new love of the ages" Buffy/Angel type thing, which was just plain crazy given the different circumstances and people involved. Secondly, I *hated* that every single "romantic moment" was a contrived piece of cliche and horrible dialogue, involving dead spirits (Waiting in the Wings, bleuch) or weird dreams - hallunications (Birthday, Deep Down, Awakening)

The last scene b/w Cordelia and Angel in the 100th episode showed how the relationship should have been handled - there was more maturity and emotion to last in that one scene, than there was in most of s5.

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Monday, January 31, 2005 11:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sara:
The last scene b/w Cordelia and Angel in the 100th episode showed how the relationship should have been handled - there was more maturity and emotion to last in that one scene, than there was in most of s5.

I totally agree with that. When Cordy came back she seemed more Cordy like than she had in a long time. I think she nailed that episode. Made me actually wish she wasn't gone.

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Thursday, February 3, 2005 12:02 AM

I never really believed in A/C, when it first happened I admit I spent the whole time going eww this is icky and wrong.
The whole thing annoyed me hugely because shallow bitch Cordelia was one of my favourite characters... and well. she just wasn't very good at being nice. It was always forced and...

Anyway, point of this, after it all goes back and you find out Cordelia was half demon it seems more and more to me that the entire set up was designed to tell you that something wasn't right... that C/A didn't quite make sense...

I mean Cordy cutting off her hair and making it lighter... that would never have happened, she obsessed about her hair... it was a big case of acting like Buffy much.

So in some ways it was quite clever of Joss to handle it the way he did, the network were pressuring him to have a love interest for Angel with the ban on mentioning Buffy and so he created a fake love interest... one that could look like it was a love interest until he slam on the brakes and turn it upside down.
So that he could have a love interest and then destroy it without anyone really being upset.

Okay, I realise that there are C/Aers... and maybe I just don't post at boards that they frequent, there never seemed to be a whole lot of them, just quite a few B/Sers who found it quite convenient to also pair C/A to resolve any underlying B/A tension.
Don't flame me for saying that - it's the impression I've got, I'm not saying it's necessarily correct.

As for angel and sex I thought it was fairly obvious that it wasn't just sex, I seem to recall Giles tells Buffy that real true happiness was incredibly rare, shortly after Angel loses his soul.
I don't think Joss would ever say that the only route to true happiness is sex! After all that would mean logically that Spike's actions in Seeing Red where okay... when obviously they're not, and he said that he wrote that scene to make it clear B/S was not about love.
Yeah - don't flame me about that either - he said it not me.
But B/S is not the topic.

My point really is that C/A was a bit of non-event. Seems to me it was added to keep the networks happy but it was so horribly forced and wrong I among many was extremely glad when it was over.

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Thursday, February 3, 2005 1:18 AM

The Cordy as half-demon thing was such a missed opportunity. They should have given her visible demon attributes, scales or something, just enough to be disfiguring. Now that would be an interesting problem for Cordy to face...

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Thursday, February 3, 2005 10:52 AM

Oh, I totally agree about B/S shippers who conveniently think it is great to pair C and A together. They've got their own agendas. I don't take them seriously. AT.ALL.

I actually didn't think C/A was forced. It was built up quite naturally in early s3 - I thought it was quite feasible that both of them would be drawn closer together. I thought we ended up watching a very mature, adult relationship evolve- something that may be lost on a lot of viewers.

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Friday, February 4, 2005 10:47 AM

Hah!
I suppose really that would be Cordy's absolute hell to be scally or something - actually that was one of the big give aways that she wasn't a higher power - that there didn't seem to be anything bad about her half-demonness. If there had been I'd've been more convinced.

Okay so, C/A might be more 'adult' but only if you define the difference between adult and childhood relationships as a distinct lack of real passion.
I mean that's the difference isn't it? Buffy and Angel were all over each other and Cordelia and Angel weren't.
But I don't think that necessarily means the C/A relationship is anymore adult than the B/A one. *shrugs* or even the A/D one.

The introduction of the C/A romantic story line smacked a bit too much of network pressure for 'a love interest' for my taste.
Fall for it if you will... but the whole escapade was just weird.

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Friday, February 4, 2005 2:34 PM

The Buffy/Spike thing bothers me for exactly the same reason (among others...).

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Friday, February 4, 2005 8:45 PM

NUMEROCINCUENTAUNO

Look, I am a latecomer to the Buffyverse, but that tends to make one more of a fanatic.

The very best thing about Buffy/Angel was the writing. Joss and company not only spun a more complex and ever-expanding universe, but they allowed their characters to grow and evolve, while taking into account the realities of churning out 44 minutes of television on a tight budget every eight days (or whatever).

Also, in contrast to the "I'd really like to see a series based around ..." comments I've seen, the real genius of the Joss is his ability to construct ensemble casts. Each character seems likable and believable on their own, but each represents an aspect of character that is only whole in the presence of others. ("Primeval (2)" , the killing-Adam episode from BTVS Season 4, lays that out pretty explicitly.) In the Angel Season 1 commentary, it seems that the writers realized they needed more ensemble to make Angel work. The Firefly crew shows that aspect even more explicitly -- the cast is military unit/family/in a submarine/at war with no one to depend on but each other.

So back to love. Far be it from me to suggest that people who post to Fantasy/SciFi websites are lacking in sexual experience, but many others have observed that sex does not necessarily equate to "perfect happiness." [As Spike observed, sex might be a Relationship, if you do it enough times.] The original Buffy concept was "little blond cheerleader kicking demon a_s -- ha, ha -- and dating a tall, dark vampire." To Joss's credit (once he got past the botched movie and the first half-season), his story arc for the second season included the (near-universal, I am told) female experience of "I gave him everything I had, and he dumped me," to the point at the end of the second season when her real lover was restored , but she had to sacrifice him to save the world. (One critic wrote that the episode had 'real emotional heft'.) [It also sent Angel to 100 years in a Hell dimension -- that might cool one's ardor.]

So, after an awkward BTVS Season 3 spent avoiding "perfect happiness", Angel bugged off to LA, Cordelia unknowingly in tow.

The "Angel" series was more "noir" and adult than BTVS from the beginning. The writers were also challenged early by the death of one of the principal actors. That made the growth of the Cordelia character one of the defining arcs of the series. In addition, keep in mind that sexual tensions/relationships drove many of the plot elements throughout the series. (Cordelia/Wesley from the Buffy days, Cordelia/Gru, Gunn/Fred, Wesley/Leila, Wesley/Fred, Spike/Harmony, Angel/Eve [no perfect happiness there!], Wesley/Fred, to name but a few.)

The strange metamorphisis of Cordelia seems to have more to do with the actress Charisma Carpenter wanting to start a family than anything under Joss's complete control. I assume he wrote it in as best he could.

On a personal note, the last episode to feature Cordelia (You're Welcome, S5), was the last episode of Buffy or Angel that I saw new for the first time. I was bowled over by how funny, sympathetic, empathetic, intelligent, and wonderful she was. Anyone interested in how good a hypothetical Season 6 (or the rest of S5) could have been should take a look at this episode a few times.

In the end, Angel and Cordelia is the relationship that Should Have Been. Cordelia had grown and evolved into a being that Angel could have loved without apocalyptic "perfect love." Like everyone else.

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Saturday, February 5, 2005 2:03 AM

I suppose I don't understand why - having truly experienced perfect love - Angel would be able to settle for anything else.
Buffy couldn't - that was half of the issue with Riley wasn't it?
I don't see why Angel *would* and I don't see why he should need to, why it's necessary, I mean yeah, he's not a eunuch I'm not going to be heartily upset if he sleeps with someone else, but I can't wrap my head around why he would have a relationship knowing it's not love... isn't that a paradox in itself?
B/S afterall was founded on the same principals and I think most would agree it was not a relationship but a coping mechanism - it's certainly not true that every relationship starts with love, but the romatic in me insists that there must be the hope of love... or it's not a relatioship but sleeping together a lot.
Don't you think, in it's own way that that demeans Cordelia even more?
Or Joss - if all the nation has to gain from having an adult relationship is orgasms than the whole thing strikes me as very un-Joss like.

Equally I don't know that the 100th eppie should be taken as a standpoint for C/A the whole affair was more of a thankyou to Charisma than anything else and in that way they did it well, but it would have been even more mature and well handled in my opinion if she'd come out of her coma and told Angel not to be stupid for thinking he loved her.
I can't convince myself that Angel does love her - 'loving' Cordelia was convenient and he was so damned and determined to believe himself to did, whether he really believed or not. Somebody was there for him, in a way only really Buffy had been before so he equated the help with love - not the person with love. - The argument can't be flipped the other way, Angel loved Buffy before she even trusted him.
Equally BtVS as a show was not founded on the principal of Angel and Buffy being in love. They weren't meant to be - David was only meant to be a semi-regular in the first series and that was originally the end of Angel's character, he was kept on because the fans loved the dynamic between him and Sarah so much - and all of his backstory, Spike and Ats all exist because of that single fact.

I liked having Cordelia in Angel - she was a great character and I love the dynamic of all of the rest of it too... but I don't think that for a show to be adult there has to be a love element. If you'll excuse me for saying so that's actually a very childish attitude to what is adult and what is not - isn't it the first thing a kid does in trying to prove that they're all grown up running out a finding a girl/guy? IMO it spoke highly of Ats as a show - that they didn't play on the romantic storylines nearly as much as BtVS did. And that IMO was what truly made it more adult, the last few seasons of Ats really dragged that down.

Equally if you've ever read the shooting script for the second episode of Angel Ats was originally going to be a lot darker and more adult than it truly was, if you've read it you'll know that there was certainly a lot of network pressure to change the direction of the show. Which is why I'm so sure the network demanded a love interest.

Didn't exactly the same thing happen with Firefly? When Joss wouldn't bend as much as they wanted over the show they ditched it.
With Ats he bended to keep it on air. *shrugs*
C/A was one of those moments when you could see the u-turn.

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Saturday, February 5, 2005 2:33 AM

Here's a link to Corrupt, the original version of Angel episode 2, for those who are interested:

http://www.geocities.com/invisiblegreen/corrupt/corrupt.html

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Saturday, February 5, 2005 3:36 AM

You found it!
I thought I'd lost it when shooting scripts went down... and then Psyche.
Everyone must read that eppie.
Weasy

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Sunday, February 6, 2005 12:32 PM

I don't know what the definition of an "adult" relationship actually is. But I know what I saw and felt with Cordelia/Angel- and yes, part of it was b/c I didn't see the constant doey-eyed swoons and kisses that seemed to perpetually define the Buffy/Angel "romance." I guess I was just able to empathise more with C/A - it wasn't the most overtly of passionate relationships, but it resonated the deepest with me b/c it actually made sense - it was about loyalty, trust, affection, honesty, conversation, mutual respect, understanding etc. Cordelia loved Angel for the vampire that he was and the man that he wanted to be. She fought alongside him, battled with him, made him understood the importance of humanity and his place in the world. She tried to let the soul that often plagued him to sing openly. She never let the demon inside define who he was. She taught him that life was hard but that fighting the good fight meant that sacrifices had to be made.

I always saw ATs as the journey that both Cordelia and Angel took together. I really adore YW b/c it showed A/C as they should have been - two people who just *got* each other in a way that no else could. The irony is that while the episode closed the book on C/A, and as much as the writers just tried to shrug C/A under the carpet by late s4, to me that ep just served to show how far both had come and how much they were meant to be. It was like everything coming full circle for them.

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Sunday, February 6, 2005 2:28 PM

I understand all of the above...I just don't think it was ever pulled off on-screen.

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Monday, February 7, 2005 12:22 AM

Fair enough!

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Monday, February 7, 2005 8:42 AM

The thing is... that all of those things could also be said about B/A. She was the first person to trust him at all... Coredlia initially wouldn't believe he was a vampire, and then was extremely wigged by it, the first time she meets him in season one of Ats she asks if he's still all grr in a classic moment of Cordyness.

IMO She doesn't except his demonness, the way Buffy did. She tries instead to make him more... human, so that her liking him would be okay again as it was when she first crushed on him. Instead of Buffy who truly excepted that the person she loved was both a mix of demon and man - for example when he's all vamp-face and tries to turn away from her (in What's My Line Part 1) and she says she didn't even notice and kisses him anyway.

Coredlia uses his demon side against him constantly (when Connor is born particularly), using it to get what she wants or make points about him without thought of his feelings.
Cordelia accepts Angel as long as he surpresses the demon side of him.

Buffy always accepted all of him... even when it freaked her out and she needed time to deal... she always comes back to help him.
And Angel is not just the soul part of him - Angel is the soul with the demon whispering in his ear. IMO Coredlia never understood that, when Buffy did and it's one of the key differences between their relationships.

'Ships aren't rational at the best of times - and if you connect with C/A then that's fine - it's really not worth starting a fight about, I just get really annoyed and frustrated when people say B/A isn't worthy because it's not adult. Because I think it is... and I think I have good reason to think it is.

If nothing else... how much does it matter anyway? All sides have great quotes and moments and fans (well - some of them have more of a vigillante group than others *cough*spuffy*cough*) and that's enough. The shows are over now. These things are mostly better just left alone.

So I'm going to leave this thread with a moment of 'shipperly pride,
A couple of quotes from our beloved Joss:

Quote:
"It was important for David to come and do, which is really sweet considering he's all over the end of Angel at the same time. It means a lot to me and Sarah and David and the writing staff as storytellers, because Angel was there from the beginning and because their relationship transcends everything." - On Angel's apearance at the end of BtVS

Buffy loves Angel. And he loves her. And I love Ho-hos."

"It's an eternal love, don't get me wrong; I realize that."

"That was one of our thinner metaphors. That, ah, you know, that was really pretty close to the surface. But you know, those two people, you know, were so much in love that I thought it was a genuinely erotic scene, and not, you know, exploitive." - RE the bite scene in graduation day part 2

lots more quotes here from all the cast/crew/books/episodes:
http://www.sweetvendetta.com/twinflames/forever.htm

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Monday, February 7, 2005 9:32 AM

Weasy - do you have a ship you'd care to profess an undying love for???? A personal agenda maybe???

I may empathise more with C/A, but I don't really consider myself a "shipper." It just seemed to be one of Whedon's more realistic couple portrayals. I don't get why *you* are so worked up over it though...I mean dragging up 'David loves Sarah, Sarah loves David' quotes, the crew talking about how transcendent B/A were, are, forever will be. Yeah, coz cookie dough really smacks of maturity Joss. I've got no problems jumping on the "B/A 4 Eva" bandwagon if it will make you feel a lilwillbit better.........

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Monday, February 7, 2005 1:22 PM

The Angel appearance in Chosen was hopeless. Of course not quite as ridiculously awful as all the Buffy/Spike stuff that preceded it, but hey ;)

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Monday, February 7, 2005 1:35 PM

I agree. Angel's part in the last two episodes of Buffy was pretty bad. I was expecting to see Buffy, Spike, Angel and Faith fighting side by side. How cool would that have been?

The worst part was Angel getting up after being knocked down by Shepherd Mal then like a good minute or so later getting up and giving the line "where is he?". More like "where have you been Angel"?

My vote still goes for B&A though.

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Tuesday, February 8, 2005 3:55 AM