Wes' guns? by Noocyte

ANGELUS ARCANUM

Wes' guns?

POSTED BY: NOOCYTE
UPDATED: Saturday, March 26, 2005 12:18
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VIEWED: 7304
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Thursday, March 24, 2005 9:48 AM

Anybody sufficiently steel-savvy to tell what kinds of shootin' irons Wes wielded? They look like .45s to me, going by the barrel bores. Possibly S&W?

Idle monkey curiosity, is all...

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Thursday, March 24, 2005 11:55 AM

RUXTON

As well as I could see them, they were a brace of Colt (or clone) 1911s, indeed in .45 ACP. These are just about the finest self-defense handguns available, and a choice that endeared Wes to me like nothing before. The shotgun clinched it.

Hope this helps.

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Thursday, March 24, 2005 12:31 PM

GROUNDED

The guns. Sigh. I try to forget them.

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Thursday, March 24, 2005 7:33 PM

NOOCYTE

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
The guns. Sigh. I try to forget them.

Well, I will admit that the vast majority of the times they were drawn, they did little more than provide a nice hero shot, followed by an ignominious anticlimax. This tracks with the whole "traditional weapons with ritual significance for the slaying of mystical or quasi-mystical entities" vibe, and indeed I rather like that. No fundamental disagreement on the pervasive idea that firearms are far too prosaic a weapon for the foes of "Angel's Avengers."

Still, I can recall a certain daddy-glamoured droid which was inches from stealing Angel's will, and/or Fred's life (and so denying her and Wes the brief bit of joy they were to have), being handily dispatched by a few well-placed slugs. Also, the firearms at least provided a much-needed distraction on more than one occasion.

And Ruxton, indeed, the 1911 is a most efficacious slab of steel (though my tastes lean more toward a 9mm or .40; greater mag capacity for a modest trade-off in stopping power per unit of lead. SIGs and Glocks and Springields --specifically, the XD series-- are more my flavor). However, I think Wes' pistols are customized Colt Combat Commanders ( http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg04-e.htm 5th pic from the top), rather than "straight" 1911s. Thoughts?

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Friday, March 25, 2005 2:04 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by Noocyte:
though my tastes lean more toward a 9mm or .40; greater mag capacity for a modest trade-off in stopping power per unit of lead.

Does this scare anyone else?

But yes I definitely agree with the comment about Lineage. Couldn't have been as effective any other way.

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Friday, March 25, 2005 6:35 AM

NOOCYTE

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Quote:
Originally posted by Noocyte:
though my tastes lean more toward a 9mm or .40; greater mag capacity for a modest trade-off in stopping power per unit of lead.

Does this scare anyone else?

But yes I definitely agree with the comment about Lineage. Couldn't have been as effective any other way.

Fear not, Grounded: I'm all aware of how ghastly that came out. It was just the most efficient (and least euphemistic, without getting grisly) way of saying what I meant!

And, lest readers calibrate their impresions of me against a mental image of a survivalist militia lead-head, permit me to hijack my own thread to clarify that I'm really a very peaceful guy. True, I do intend to purchase a handgun at some point, but more out of appreciation for the skill of shooting than the vanishingly small (one hopes!!) probability that I will ever have to use the instrument for its "intended" purpose ("does the thing itself have purpose, or do we....what's the word").

(Bias check: would your reaction have been different to the latter portion of the above paragraph if I'd said that I was planning to take up archery or fencing?)

Keep flyin'

(kidding!)

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Friday, March 25, 2005 7:29 AM

EST120

Quote:
Originally posted by Noocyte:
("does the thing itself have purpose, or do we....what's the word").

"imbue. that's the word."

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Friday, March 25, 2005 7:42 AM

0REAVER0

Guns are problematic

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Friday, March 25, 2005 7:50 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by Noocyte:
(Bias check: would your reaction have been different to the latter portion of the above paragraph if I'd said that I was planning to take up archery or fencing?)

People tend not to choose bows or swords based on stopping power ;) And of course I understood you what you were originally trying to say :)

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Friday, March 25, 2005 10:52 AM

RHYMEPHILE

Ooh, Wes in leather, all scruffy-lookin', wielding his sawed-off shotgun....whew, sorry

I know we've had this discussion numerous times about guns in the Buffy/Angel verses and their usage in various episodes, but I like to see it as the simple fact of guys looking cool with guns. And a multitude of comic book writers and artists have the same idea, only it's with well-endowed, scantily-clad women and guns.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I've seen life on this planet, Scully, and that's precisely why I'm looking elsewhere."

-- Fox Mulder, The X-Files

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Friday, March 25, 2005 1:14 PM

GROUNDED

I don't think the Beast-fight scene looked very cool. Wes pulling out the shotgun looked ridiculously corny.

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Friday, March 25, 2005 1:31 PM

BLEYDDYN

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Quote:
Originally posted by Noocyte:
(Bias check: would your reaction have been different to the latter portion of the above paragraph if I'd said that I was planning to take up archery or fencing?)

People tend not to choose bows or swords based on stopping power ;) And of course I understood you what you were originally trying to say :)

Well, actually... I keep a sword and a cell phone by my bed. The cell phone is new, based on advice I just heard in a hand gun safety class, but I've had a sword near my bed for years

--Bleyddyn

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Friday, March 25, 2005 2:13 PM

RUXTON

NOOCYTE,

Would beg to differ, re your choice of weapons. The purpose of shooting is hitting, not spraying the scenery with multiple misses. One or two good hits from a .45 are better than many misses with anything.

The XD is okay, but just as thick as a 1911 and it has an over-8-pound trigger, which makes it hard to wring out its inherent accuracy, and that much slower to shoot even one shot accurately. I prefer the Kahr design in DAO-type weapons, if one must have same.

My personal choice is Colt's CCO version (Officer's frame with Commander slide) of the 1911, or the full-size, magnificent Valtro version of the 1911. If Wes's guns were in fact Commanders, more power to him. The LW Commander or good clones therof (Kimber Pro Carry II, etc.) are easier to pack than the full-size 1911, and thus more likely to be there. I'll have to dig out my videos of that show to try and verify the model.

Oh, and I'm sure your chances of needing serious self-defense in the future will increase, not diminish. There are too many rats in the cage. Those who doubt this are probably standing in a river in Egypt.

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Friday, March 25, 2005 2:45 PM

NOOCYTE

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Quote:
Originally posted by Noocyte:
(Bias check: would your reaction have been different to the latter portion of the above paragraph if I'd said that I was planning to take up archery or fencing?)

People tend not to choose bows or swords based on stopping power ;) ... :)

Actually, I did a bit of (foil) fencing back in college, and I remember being rather taken aback by the frank discussion of point-scoring hit zones being determined by proximity to "vital organs!" The martial origins of the sport are closer to the surface than you might think.

As for archery...well, while I would agree that the pure target-shooting aspect of it has migrated away from its lethal roots, and more into the realm of darts (which I don't mean in even a remotely disparaging way, since I LOVE darts!), there is still a quite thriving community of folks who hunt with bows and arrows.

In both cases, the original purpose of killin' folk is integral to the assessment of skill and of the quality of the implements used (i.e., the balance and handling characteristics of a fencing sword, and the power and accuracy of a bow and arrow), even if their actual use for this has (thankfully) waned. The fact that guns are still an "active duty" weapon, I submit, does not take away one jot from the pleasure of scoring some nice tight groups at the range.

And, as the FINAL layer in a well-constructed security plan (visual deterrents, good locks, alarm system, a noisy pooch, situational awareness, etc.) it could also, in extremis be a life-saver, where a bow and arrow would be too unwieldy, and a sword (with all due respect to Bleyddin) would bring one into uncomfortably close proximity to one's assailant.

Of course, as with a sword, a knife, a bow, or a black belt, the most important "safety" on a firearm is between the users ears!

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Friday, March 25, 2005 3:04 PM

STATIC

Quote:
Originally posted by 0Reaver0:
Guns are problematic

I disagree.

Guns are like any other weapon, tool, or musical instrument.

Well maintained, they perform their function effectively with a minimal risk of malfunction.

Poorly maintained, the risk of malfunction and reduced effectiveness increases greatly.

In the hands of a responsible and well-trained operator, they perform their assigned task efficiently and, again, effectively.

In the hands of someone irresponsible or poorly trained, they create a signifigant risk for the operator and anyone around them.

Bow strings break,
Swords break.
Guns break.

==================================================
http://burstsofstatic.blogspot.com/

Evil, Lecherous Hump

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Friday, March 25, 2005 3:20 PM

THATWEIRDGIRL

sorry, off topic, but I couldn't resist that sword by the bed comment....

...I'm told my dad keeps an axe under his side of the bed.

www.thatweirdgirl.com
---
Can we not revel in our cyber-love?

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Friday, March 25, 2005 6:07 PM

MIKEYMO

Also along the sword-by-the-bed strain..

As a child (8-9), I was intensely worried about psychotic maniacs invading our home, and I kept several weapons next to the bed, including a bat and a compund bow.

I just felt like sharing..

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

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Friday, March 25, 2005 7:29 PM

BLEYDDYN

Quote:
Originally posted by Noocyte:
... a sword (with all due respect to Bleyddin) would bring one into uncomfortably close proximity to one's assailant.

Believe me, I wasn't suggesting that a sword is an ideal home defense weapon. But, it is better than bare hands, in my opinion. Possibly not as good as an axe

, but you work with what you've got.

--Bleyddyn

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Friday, March 25, 2005 10:00 PM

NOOCYTE

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
NOOCYTE,

Would beg to differ, re your choice of weapons. The purpose of shooting is hitting, not spraying the scenery with multiple misses.

Absolutely. This is why I periodically take myself down to the range and practice with rentals. Time well-spent increasing my competence, proficiency and familiarity with a variety of guns, and talking at length with the very genial and informative guys who work and practice there, before I take the step of bringing one into my life (note: I'll be buying the gun safe first. Mechanical {not electronic} combination lock, and stout steel construction).

Quote:
One or two good hits from a .45 are better than many misses with anything.

See above about practice, practice, practice. Cheaper ammo for a 9mm means more practice, and thus better accuracy (and more fun, lest it be forgotten that it's my fervent hope that the gun never be used for anything but putting tightly controlled holes in paper targets!)). Less blinding muzzle flash and second-shot-delaying muzzle flip with a 9 versus a .45 means fewer (if any) shots do go astray (should the lamentable eventuality of having to do the Other Thing ever arise).

Quote:
The XD is okay, but just as thick as a 1911 and it has an over-8-pound trigger, which makes it hard to wring out its inherent accuracy, and that much slower to shoot even one shot accurately. I prefer the Kahr design in DAO-type weapons, if one must have same.

Actually, I've moved away from the Springfield as a first (and quite probably only) gun, and toward a Glock G19. Simple, robust design, less complexity (and so less susceptibility to entropy). Excellent accuracy and a form factor very well suited to my spindly hands.

Quote:
My personal choice is Colt's CCO version (Officer's frame with Commander slide) of the 1911, or the full-size, magnificent Valtro version of the 1911. If Wes's guns were in fact Commanders, more power to him. The LW Commander or good clones therof (Kimber Pro Carry II, etc.) are easier to pack than the full-size 1911, and thus more likely to be there. I'll have to dig out my videos of that show to try and verify the model.

The guns you mentioned are all extremely respectable firearms, and I'd welcome your verification of my neophyte's ID of Wes' guns (remember Wes' guns? This is a thread about Wes' guns!

).

Still, I have a preference for striker-fired over hammer-fired guns. Given their long and venerable history, this is clearly a matter of personal preference on my part, but I lean toward as few external moving parts as possible. Plus, I like the Glock's internal drop safety; the idea of having a gun slip from my hand and go off is a palpable dread for me. Pretty much impossible for a Glock to do this (there is a story about a careless officer dropping his G17 from a helicopter, some 50' onto the tarmac. Not only did it not go off, it was still operable afterward!) ETA: Actually, the gun was dropped about 400 FEET, I just discovered!!

Quote:
Oh, and I'm sure your chances of needing serious self-defense in the future will increase, not diminish. There are too many rats in the cage. Those who doubt this are probably standing in a river in Egypt.

Actually, the way I live my life, and the place I will soon be living it (suburban-rural Buck's County, PA...not because I don't love the city and grieve for leaving it, but because it will mean fewer 35-mile commutes to my office!), the chances are going to drop precipitously, from an already quite low level (not denial {nor even de-Nile

}. Just a statement of probabilities).

Still, home invasions do happen, albeit rarely. In that sense, I think of it along the same lines as a fire extinguisher. I have one. I maintain it, and replace it periodically. I've never had to use it, and arrange my habits to decrease the chances that I ever will (see my above comments on a layered home security schema).

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Friday, March 25, 2005 10:15 PM

NOOCYTE

Quote:
Originally posted by Bleyddyn:
Quote:
Originally posted by Noocyte:
... a sword (with all due respect to Bleyddin) would bring one into uncomfortably close proximity to one's assailant.

Believe me, I wasn't suggesting that a sword is an ideal home defense weapon. But, it is better than bare hands, in my opinion. Possibly not as good as an axe , but you work with what you've got.

--Bleyddyn

Much as I opt for a big Mag Light and some pepper spray at the present time, I've got to give it up for the sword, if for no other reason than the sheer psychological impact (and here I'm thinking of Bruce Willis in "Pulp Fiction!").

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Saturday, March 26, 2005 8:17 AM

NOOCYTE

Quote:
Originally posted by Static:
Quote:
Originally posted by 0Reaver0:
Guns are problematic

I disagree.

Guns are like any other weapon, tool, or musical instrument.

Well maintained, they perform their function effectively with a minimal risk of malfunction.

Poorly maintained, the risk of malfunction and reduced effectiveness increases greatly.

In the hands of a responsible and well-trained operator, they perform their assigned task efficiently and, again, effectively.

In the hands of someone irresponsible or poorly trained, they create a signifigant risk for the operator and anyone around them.

Bow strings break,
Swords break.
Guns break.

==================================================
http://burstsofstatic.blogspot.com/

Evil, Lecherous Hump

Well-said, Static! And this, from a bloke who's had his finger on the trigger of a HELL of a lot more potential energy than I'll ever be in a position to unleash!

BTW, nice blog. As someone who routinely works with "At Risk Teens," my hat's off to you (nice catch with the kid with PTSD; exceptionally well-handled!)

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Saturday, March 26, 2005 12:18 PM

RUXTON

NOOCYTE,

Thank you for your courteous and well-reasoned responses. Having a "fire extinguisher" and moving one's self out of the way of most incipient blazes are excellent means of self-preservation, I believe.

Because of the common attempt to try to get the most out of the 9mm, it often has greater muzzle blast and flash than a .45. Years ago a friend shot two guns at great range from another group of us. Fired were .44 Mag, .45 LC, and .357 out of similar-length barrels. The .357 was loudest by far, for the same reasons you may see more flash and noise from a 9mm. The deeper note of the .45 tends to let one shoot it without ear protection, for a shot or two. Not so the others, in my experience.

Controlling muzzle flip with a .45 is of course a matter of technique. Jo Anne Hall did quite well in national and international competition with a 1911. She and Ida Younger were both capable of putting two shots "double-tapped" within an inch of each other at 15 yards or so, though Ida (a cop) commonly used a .357 revolver. The two shots sounded like one. Neither lady looked anything like a gorilla.

The Glocks, all of them, are outstanding, though you still have a harder trigger than with a good 1911. For those who are still reading about Wes's guns, the 1911 is the most popular self-defense pistol in the world, and one of the most effective. NOOCYTE, it'll take a while for me to find those Angel videos, but I'll pursue this.

BTW, the most fun I've had shooting has been in making tiny groups on paper with what some consider to be elephant rifles.

For those who favor swords or axes or crossbows, keep in mind the dumbest thing you can do is bring a knife to a gun fight.

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