Angel -- "The Jasmine Arc: Atheism for Dummies" by Novagrass

An interesting side not, the Angel Episode "Magic Bullet" was written (and directed) by co-executive producer Jeffrey Bell. Who worked on the X-Files and turned out some religion themed episodes and, of course, some of the real heavy conspiracy themed episodes on that program, as well.

Keep Flying!

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 9:57 AM

i DO aim to misbehave

disclaimer: this would be me venturing into territory that i've tried to stay out of on this board so far because kind of thing tends to cause folk to spontaneously combust. so here goes.

Quote:
Originally posted by Novagrass:
So we all know how Joss is the big raging atheist. He has not kept that a big secret at all. But up until now, he's never *really* told a story about faith and the loss of it.

atheism a disbelief in the existence of deity - the doctrine that there is no deity
faith firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
belief a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing.

by Webster's definitions your characterizations vs. faith are bang on. however, i'm of a mind to believe atheists don't generally have the faith to lose in the first place. anyone who says they're an atheist because they don't believe in the Almighty anymore still has the faith. it's just broken or lost. i mean can you really be against something that doesn't exist?

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 10:10 AM

Quote:
by Webster's definition, atheism is the total absence of belief, not the loss of faith. an atheist generally doesn't have the faith to begin with.

Quote:
So we all know how Joss is the big raging atheist. He has not kept that a big secret at all. But up until now, he's never *really* told a story about faith and the loss of it.

I would say Joss is an Agnostic (based on his work anyway). An agnostic is someone who thinks it is impossible to know whether or not there is a god. That a person should think out questions of conduct for himself and be held accountable for his own actions. which is a central theme in much of his work.

but, both atheists and agnostic can start out with full faith in whatever religion and then lose that faith.

as for never doing a story about someone having faith then losing it, well, go back and watch firefly and pay attention to Mal.

Keep Flying!

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 10:27 AM

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by BRTick:
as for never doing a story about someone having faith then losing it, well, go back and watch firefly and pay attention to Mal.

Mal goes from referring to the Independent reinforcements as angels to forbiding the very idea of God's presence on his ship--if that ain't broken faith, i don't know what is.

Quote:
I would say Joss is an Agnostic...is someone who thinks it is impossible to know whether or not there is a god. That a person should think out questions of conduct for himself and be held accountable for his own actions. which is a central theme in much of his work.

that's what I was trying to get across, only you did it much better. i changed my post because of that - i know, bad channain, bad bad - but there's nothing that brews up trouble faster than a discussion of faith and/or religion.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 11:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
I would say Joss is an Agnostic...is someone who thinks it is impossible to know whether or not there is a god. That a person should think out questions of conduct for himself and be held accountable for his own actions. which is a central theme in much of his work.

"I'm a very hard-line angry atheist" Whedon Says "Yet I'm fascinated by the concept of devotion..."
http://www.fireflyfans.net/news.asp?newsid=267

Atheist.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 11:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BRTick:
as for never doing a story about someone having faith then losing it, well, go back and watch firefly and pay attention to Mal.

BRTICK: Ok, I'm sorry I didn't CLARIFY myself. What I meant was a STORY ARC on it, a metaphorical villain arc on Buffy or Angel. Yes, Mal is an atheist, but his story isn't about BEING an atheist. It's a character trait of his, not his story.

Quote:
atheism a disbelief in the existence of deity - the doctrine that there is no deity
faith firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
belief a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing.

i'm of a mind to believe atheists don't generally have the faith to lose in the first place. anyone who says they're an atheist because they don't believe in the Almighty anymore still has the faith. it's just broken or lost. i mean can you really be against something that doesn't exist?

Channain: By this logic, when you lose faith in God, or the belief in God, you become an atheist, someone who does not believe in the existance of a God. Because he's an atheist doesn't mean he's always been an atheist, and I'm confused about your differentiation between loss of faith and the breaking of it. In both cases it was once there, so that it can be lost or broken. Broken faith and lost faith are the same thing to me. Though, I suppose, if you lose faith there's the possibility of finding it... but then again, you can repair broken things as well... so I guess I'm back to them being the same thing.

I once believed in God. I no longer do. I am an atheist. The definition of atheism doesn't stipulate that the atheist NEVER belived in God. Most atheists I know have grown up in a somewhat religious environment, and were at least a little faithful in their younger days.

EDIT: Ignore my confusion, the later posts helped me out.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 11:59 AM

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:

"I'm a very hard-line angry atheist" Whedon Says "Yet I'm fascinated by the concept of devotion..."

okay, so i'll cheerfully stand corrected. can't vouch for BRtick though, who educated us on the agnostics. speaking from personal experience (which is to say, someone who's been there), i'm still of the opinion that angry atheist is just a colorful way to say broken believer.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 12:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:

i'm still of the opinion that angry atheist is a colorful way to say broken believer.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

Hehe, well whatever terminology you use, let's just leave it at Joss doesn't believe in God, atheists don't belive in God, and The Jasmine Arc is a metaphorical journey through becoming an atheist.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 12:16 PM

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Hehe, well whatever terminology you use, let's just leave it at Joss doesn't believe in God, atheists don't belive in God, and The Jasmine Arc is a metaphorical journey through becoming an atheist.

i can live with that. like Paul Bettany calls himself a "misguided adolescent," which is English for actor. it's all in the interpretation.

...or JW is an atheist who writes about agnostics? what's that do for ya?

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 12:59 PM

EMBASSY

The current Atlantic has an article in the beginning section coins a new word I have become fond of: Apatheist. An apatheist is a person who doesn't care about religion all that much one way or another. It might include believers as well as non-believers. Fun idea -- I knew there was a word out there for my religious preference.

But the current story arc on Angel and on Buffy is by no means apatheistic.

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Thursday, April 17, 2003 9:18 PM

Quote:
"I'm a very hard-line angry atheist" Whedon Says "Yet I'm fascinated by the concept of devotion..."
http://www.fireflyfans.net/news.asp?newsid=267

Well, I stand corrected. it's interesting that a "hardline" atheist would be so fasinated by faith , devotion ,god,personal morals, etc, and what it means.

Keep Flying!

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Friday, April 18, 2003 5:25 AM

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
The current Atlantic has an article in the beginning section coins a new word I have become fond of: Apatheist. An apatheist is a person who doesn't care about religion all that much one way or another. It might include believers as well as non-believers. Fun idea -- I knew there was a word out there for my religious preference.

HEY! that is a fun idea. i'm a believer (not a trace...of doubt in my mind...) but i've had all manner of objections with religion in general because of all the gorramn rules and prejudices that seem to follow on occasion. like how "true" Christians don't believe you believe unless you're wearing a cross (not a bad thing, mind). i wear a yin-yang pendant, which some uninformed types have taken as evil-paganistic, totally ignoring the idea of balance between light and darkness. plus let me just say it fits the Gemini persona SO well.

this is the kind of broad-scope thinking that goes on when your mother was raised by parents of two protestant religions, baptized by a third and confirmed/married into a fourth...the child becomes an apatheist

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Friday, April 18, 2003 5:42 AM

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
I'm confused about your differentiation between loss of faith and the breaking of it.

here's my thinking...

lost faith is when someone basically grows away from it. they're aware of it, but don't actively practice it. they'll got to church on holidays, but that's it. it can also be those dark despair times when things are so bad, they can't see the light and often times stop looking altogether.

broken faith is when someone has good reason to be so pissed off at God they deliberately choose to step away from the God path onto a life path of their own. that's not to say they'll automatically end up in the special hell or anything. it's a conscious decision, same as someone who deliberately turns back onto the God path again.

as you say, though, what's lost can be found, and what's broken can be repaired, but here's the twist - humans were given the ultimate gift of free will. what we do with it is strictly up to us.

again, this is simply my point of view. long winters in Minnesota tend to cause all manner of contemplation.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Friday, April 18, 2003 6:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
Quote:
I'm confused about your differentiation between loss of faith and the breaking of it.

here's my thinking...

lost faith is when someone basically grows away from it. they're aware of it, but don't actively practice it. they'll got to church on holidays, but that's it. it can also be those dark despair times when things are so bad, they can't see the light and often times stop looking altogether.

broken faith is when someone has good reason to be so pissed off at God they deliberately choose to step away from the God path onto a life path of their own. that's not to say they'll automatically end up in the special hell or anything. it's a conscious decision, same as someone who deliberately turns back onto the God path again.

as you say, though, what's lost can be found, and what's broken can be repaired, but here's the twist - humans were given the ultimate gift of free will. what we do with it is strictly up to us.

again, this is simply my point of view. long winters in Minnesota tend to cause all manner of contemplation.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

Ahh, I see where you're coming from now.

And the confusion endeth.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Friday, April 18, 2003 6:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BRTick:

Well, I stand corrected. it's interesting that a "hardline" atheist would be so fasinated by faith , devotion ,god,personal morals, etc, and what it means.

Keep Flying!

In my experience, a lot of atheists are interested in faith and related ideas. Some of them become obsessed... a lot of anthropologists dedicate their lives to studying religion despite (or maybe because of) being atheists. Maybe they're trying to discover a new thought, a way to allow them to believe again, because it's very terrifying to feel so alone in the universe.

And I'd watch what you'd say about personal morals. You probably don't mean it the way I'm interpreting it, but religion is not the source of morality. It's sad to believe that the only thing keeping human morality in check is their dedication to a potentially nonexistant ideal. It's much more rational (not to mention comforting) to believe that morality is inherant in human nature (some more than others). Keep in mind that the most immoral attrocities in human existance (the Crusades, Jihhad, the Holocaust, etc...) have stemmed from religious teachings. To say that religion is the source of morality is to ignore the very history of religion at the expense of a belief in the inherent good of humanity.

Again, you probably didn't mean it the way I interpreted it... but I'm in a preachy mood today.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Friday, April 18, 2003 8:29 AM

Quote:
And I'd watch what you'd say about personal morals.

Well,what I meant(kinda), How many times have you heard someone say something is right or wrong because the bible (or whatever religious tome may apply) or their religious leaders say it is right or wrong? Those that carried out the Crusades or Jihad or whatever believe that they are acting in a moral way, that what they are or were doing is right. It would be nice to believe that morality is inherent, and maybe it is, but people can carry out acts other would see as immoral and still believe what they are doing isn’t. When it comes to morals in really comes down to a persons own sense of what is right and wrong, and In the end only that individual can be held accountable for their own actions.
Take Firefly, for instance, the crew carries out acts that most see as immoral (stealing killing, etc.) and yet most of the time, they seem to be doing what they see as right and good to survive.

Keep Flying!

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Friday, April 18, 2003 9:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BRTick:

Take Firefly, for instance, the crew carries out acts that most see as immoral (stealing killing, etc.) and yet most of the time, they seem to be doing what they see as right and good to survive.

Keep Flying!

mor·al
*adj. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
*Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
*Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.

Nowhere in the definition of morals does it stipulate a religious conviction. I admit that morals are certainly plyable. They aren't definate "this is right and this is wrong" scenarios. Different religions preach different morals... but every religion does preach morality. Take Zen Buddhists, for instance. Zen Buddhism is fundamentally an atheistic religion... there is no belief in a higher power. Are you saying that because they don't conform to Judeo-Christian concepts of god that they are any less moral than you? If you, you're more ignorant that I thought.

What you're saying is that religion shapes us morally. That may be true, only because religion is the basically the only place where most people learn morality (whether it be from family religious convictions, church, or whatever). But who shaped the moral convictions preached by religion? That's right, humans like you and I. Religion is a human-created concept, therefore humans put their ideas of morality and structure into the teachings. You are saying religion shapes humanity, but in reality, humanity is what shaped religion. Your logic that morals are not inherent in humanity is flawed at best. After all where did they come from in the first place?

I am an atheist. My father is an atheist. My uncle, and my sister and on and on and on... all atheists. Does that mean we have looser moral convictions? Certainly not. In fact, if I had to choose the most moral person I know, it would be my sister. Most atheists are moral for morality's sake. Most aren't moral because they fear eternal damnation; Most aren't scared into being moral. Most know the difference between right and wrong as well as the staunchest Christian follower, if not more so. (That is not to say that all atheists are moral, as there certainly are immoral atheists. Just as there are immoral Christians and Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and Hindis)

I am still confused as to your ignorance at not allowing for the possibility of inherent human morality. Atheists are no more or less moral than any religious participant. It's as simple as that. The end.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Friday, April 18, 2003 11:42 PM

Quote:
I am still confused as to your ignorance at not allowing for the possibility of inherent human morality.

I’m, not disallowing for the possibility of inherent morality, we all want to do what is right and avoid what is wrong. But, I think most of our ideas of exactly what is right and wrong are learned, from our parents, society, and, our religion or philosophy or whatever.

Keep Flying!

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 6:21 AM

ORANGEHORSE

Hey. I was a non-registered casual viewer of this site until I read this thread.
I love the site, anyway - so what the hell.
Nice to meet all of you.

I just wanted to insert a clarification in this discussion: the difference between religion and spiritual belief.
I don't support any organised religion really, besides Buddhism, maybe, but people can still always take advantage of an organised system with leaders like that. I do however consider my self laden with spiritual belief, surrounding my body, making it up, and driving these words to pixel.
This quote isn't exact, but you'll get the idea:
"A little philosophy inclindeth one's mind to athiesm, more inclindeth one's mind to spirituality."
-Shakespeare (though it might have been under the pen name of Francis Bacon, as a lot of the more overtly spiritual writings were)
I think this quote sums up my opinion on the matter perfectly. I grew up believing all the 'no different from the apes' jokes/quasi-philosophy, and it was when I decided to dedicate my time to working through life slowly and methodically, using reason and intuition, that I found the answers and proof I needed.
Ah . . . kind of got off on a tangent there.

Religion = someone telling you how to live your life
Spirituality = using your reason to come to know yourself and the world you have found yourself in

You don't know me, son, so let me explain this to you once. If I ever kill you you'll be awake. You'll be facing me. And you'll be armed

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:29 AM

This is why you don't talk about religion and politics. It makes everyone all crotchety and angry. Anyone remember the war discussion?

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:35 AM

KAYTHRYN

Don't mention it Talrius! Shhhh, stay quiet, we've already got some vid ownership problems on another thread that is making people's blood boil.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:39 AM

Quote:
We've already got some vid ownership problems on another thread that is making people's blood boil.

Yeah, I got an e-mail from Debchan over that. You know she pulled all her Firefly grabs because of that.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:56 AM

ORANGEHORSE

I don't know.
I think this discussion was handled pretty cordially - considering how rough it could gotten.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:58 AM

You're right it's not as bad as other discussions going on. Where people are threating to report others to law enforcemnt. This board is getting kinda violent lately.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Talrius:
You're right it's not as bad as other discussions going on. Where people are threating to report others to law enforcemnt. This board is getting kinda violent lately.

Remorse breeds violence, after all.

But seriously, I didn't mean to sound angry. Really I didn't. I swear.

Or did I?

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by orangehorse:
I don't know.
I think this discussion was handled pretty cordially - considering how rough it could gotten.

If it would make you feel better I could call somebody something real awful like "Fox Programming Executive" or something... naw, that would be too mean...

Keep Flying!

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Sunday, April 27, 2003 9:14 AM

XION47

Quote:
Originally posted by Novagrass:

And then there was "Jasmine Arc" on Angel. Never before have I seen such a message of the loss of faith so clearly and blatantly presented in the media, and quite frankly, it's extremely refreshing. Let's look at the facts...

Sigh...kind of a slow bunch here, aren't yah. This arc is obviously Joss's way of presenting the Anti-Christ, not the effects of the Holy Trinity. I mean if you guys knew what you were talking about like an Atheist such as Joss you wouldn't have made such a blatant mistake. Jasmine has the characteristics of the Anti-Christ not the Christ (which happen to be opposite things in case you didn't know). It's more of a aesthetic representation than a Biblical representation, though. So all the examples that you made should be reversed to equal believers not atheists, agnostics, or apatheists.

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Sunday, April 27, 2003 2:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by xion47:
Quote:
Originally posted by Novagrass:

And then there was "Jasmine Arc" on Angel. Never before have I seen such a message of the loss of faith so clearly and blatantly presented in the media, and quite frankly, it's extremely refreshing. Let's look at the facts...

Sigh...kind of a slow bunch here, aren't yah. This arc is obviously Joss's way of presenting the Anti-Christ, not the effects of the Holy Trinity. I mean if you guys knew what you were talking about like an Atheist such as Joss you wouldn't have made such a blatant mistake. Jasmine has the characteristics of the Anti-Christ not the Christ (which happen to be opposite things in case you didn't know). It's more of a aesthetic representation than a Biblical representation, though. So all the examples that you made should be reversed to equal believers not atheists, agnostics, or apatheists.

Who do you think you are to completely disregard my opinion and then condemn and insult the posters to this thread, even as you yourself ignore all evidence I've provided for my observation? Did you read the post further than the initial statement or did you simply react out of irrational emotions? If you had read further, you'd understand my position. If you're observation is so superior, how about detailing it bit further, instead of condemning me and the other posters to this thread. A simple statement of damnation does not a logical argument make.

Now, where does all of this anti-Christ stuff come from? I don't believe we brought up direct allusions to individual religious figures (i.e. Christ). Instead, we (or at least I) associated Jasmine's character as representing the evils of religion (which seems an accurate assumption based on Joss's DIRECTLY STATED atheist beliefs... see an earlier post for more detailed information on this subject). Though, Jasmine may not actually be an evil figure and may be acting out of genuine love for her followers. She may only look ugly, and the story may be a statement on superficiality as well as broken or lost faith.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Monday, April 28, 2003 7:39 AM

HJERMSTED

Here are some articles in which Joss Whedon expresses his opinions about the existence of God:

100 Questions with Joss Whedon (#74 to be specific)
http://www.slayage.com/news/030220-joss100qs.html

Is there a God?
http://www.theonionavclub.com/avclub3837/avfeature_3837.html

Who could you take in a fight?
http://www.theonionavclub.com/avclub3905/avfeature_3905.html

mattro

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Monday, April 28, 2003 10:05 AM

Quote:
Here are some articles in which Joss Whedon expresses his opinions about the existence of God

Sweet muscular Jesus!
ha! that gets me every time!

Keep Flying!

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Monday, April 28, 2003 12:32 PM

MATWANG

As I was reading this interesting thread, I realized that, when it was posted that Joss was "an angry athiest"- something about that line kept twinging in my mind's side as not sounding right... is there really such a thing as an "angry athiest"?

The pivotal word here is the concept of innate "athiestic anger" - who would they be mad at?

When you don't believe in god, the emotional attitude toward the subject (of whether there is a god) is more along the lines of ..."uh, whatever...."

If there are angry athiests, then surely their anger must be directed at the persistent and relentless prattle of those tireless, prodding believers, (you know who you are... wink wink, nudge nudge) and is not a component of their athiestic belief per se.

As to Joss "challenging God" when things go bad, that's probably just a cursing habit he picked up from his Dad (or Mom).

It's much more satisfying to vent your anger at the "big guy in charge"...somebody such as GOD - hence, personifying him/her, than yelling at the outcome of a series of random events.

"You damned tree! Why'd ya let the wind knock all of your damned leaves off your branches so they could be pulled to earth by the force of gravity thus necessitating me to have spend my Saturday raking the damned yard!!!"

It's just not as satisfying. It doesn't evoke the sense of reckless defiance one gets when one takes the name of a so-called God in vain. The act of cursing is like daring those alleged powers-that-be to strike you down. It's a far more bully thing to do than to say under your breath, "O drats."

Athiestic anger would surely have to be be towards man, not towards the chaos inherent in life, which actually is kinda pretty.

In my view, there's gotta be something running all these fractals, but that's another thread.

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Monday, April 28, 2003 1:39 PM