New to Angel, and I'm having this problem... by chrisisall

Yeah, have the same problem with Buffy. It doesn't bother me quite as much on Angel for some reason. I kind of remember there was at least one episode where they self-referentially made fun of the fact that all vampires rise from the graves the first time with innate martial arts skills...

Jayne, your mouth is talkin. Might want to look into that.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, August 26, 2005 2:21 PM

Well, on the other hand, you have Babylon 5, and while many of my best friends lauded the series as the best thing since (and sometimes better than) Star Trek, I personally found it to be boring and dry- too real for it's own good (funky aliens excluded).
So my view is definitly only one particular view...(plus: I'd take wacky over dry any day of the week).

All in all, I AM enjoying AtS, though.

Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, August 26, 2005 4:42 PM

The parts of "Hero" that explain Doyle's character more and the ending work for me. I wasn't crazy about the plot itself and I thought the Scourge was a bad idea stupidly executed. As season one moves along, it becomes more intriguing as W&H plays a bigger role. And the character development and stories get more interesting. Hang in there, it gets better. Especially S2.

As to the martial arts exptertise of 99% of the vampires and every demon whose costume doesn't restrict him? You notice it. You kind of make fun of it. Just as you do when you notice the abundance of wood that seems to be readily available in Sunnydale. But for me, that stuff is so minor compared to what's good that I can suspend disbelief.

But if it interferes with your connection to the characters then it just does and you're entitled to feel that way.

That kind of omnipresent fighting ability wouldn't work on FIREFLY because of its more realistic setting, tone, etc. But if FIREFLY had gone on long enough it probably would have developed some sort of idiosyncracy that might have challenged suspension of disbelief.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, August 26, 2005 4:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
But if FIREFLY had gone on long enough it probably would have developed some sort of idiosyncracy that might have challenged suspension of disbelief.

Maybe, but the set-up would have limited it, I think. The no-aliens thing for one. No bumpy headed monsters were ever gonna show up to 'take over the Alliance', and prove a greater threat *que omninous music*

Don't get me wrong, some of my best friends are aliens Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, August 26, 2005 5:03 PM

GROOSALUGG

If I can suspend belief enough to accept a world populated by vampires, demons, and a high school girl with superpowers, then I have no trouble with the high degree of fighting skills of said-monsters.

The shows are really about the characters and the stories surrounding them; the demons are just a tool for helping to tell those stories.

Plus, the fights are always so well-choreographed and acted that I find them so much fun to watch. The one in "Destiny" (Angel S5) which takes up nearly two full acts is as epic as anything ever done on one of Joss's shows.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, August 26, 2005 8:40 PM

PURPLEBELLY

I, too, wish that Whedon had been able to create a Network TV show about teen-twenty sex and drugs without having to dress them up as vampires and magic, but that's showbiz I guess. Having a heroine saving the World many times was probably more acceptable than serial abortions; if you don't think babies are apocalyptic, ask your Mom and Dad

I thought that the fights on Firefly were an homage to 'Sixties TV Westerns rather than an attempt at realism - must be the way I fight

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, August 26, 2005 8:55 PM

"Destiny" has the absolute best fight in all of Buffy/Angeldom!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, August 27, 2005 2:10 AM

Tis a good fight, but my shabby longplay VHS copy of it is so grainy it all goes by in a bit of a blur :(

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, August 27, 2005 2:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I'm all about martial arts, but is every demon outta Hell a black belt?

Assuming you've only watched up to Hero, which demons are you talking about? There's the one in I Will Remember You, but who else?

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, August 27, 2005 3:25 AM

Quote:
Am I alone in this feeling?
And more importantly, are there any guns aimed in my direction for this thread?

Just hold still... *aims*

You're right about it being silly that all demons know kung fu. I guess that it doesn't really bother me so much for a couple of reasons.

1) I had seen all of Buffy before I got into Angel, so by the time I got to AtS I had accepted it.
2) The fights are SO much better on Angel that I spend a lot of the time just appreciating their stunt coordination and thinking about how silly all the fights on Buffy were.

I guess if you're looking for someone to fanwank the issue away, I can give that a shot. Not EVERY demon has super fighting skills, just ones that have come to Earth or this dimension or whatever as warriors - which includes vampires. I believe there's a demon in the very next episode "Parting Gifts" that's not a fighter, and there are several examples throughout the series. But since Angel's a champion for good, he usually runs into champions for evil.

Still, there should've been a demon that knew capoeria instead. That would have been funny. Breakdancing demons? I'm sure if Angel had run another year or two.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, August 27, 2005 5:04 AM

I've seen 15 eps of AtS S1 now. She, and the fight in front of the stopped train w/the druggie demon come to martial mind.

Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, August 27, 2005 5:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:
But since Angel's a champion for good, he usually runs into champions for evil.

OKay, that's good.

Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, August 27, 2005 5:16 AM

Yeah, the drugged up demon was kind of a problem in this respect. If they're peaceful, nonviolent demons normally, how would they learn to fight? It's stated that the drug, or the withdrawl, increased their aggresiveness and strength, but where did the moves come from? I guess it just makes for better action sequences.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, August 27, 2005 6:22 AM

7 more eps to go on this season. The fights in general have been much more ferocious than Buffy's (with the possible exception of Buffy vs. Faith), and I really like the visual style of the series.

Kek demon Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, August 27, 2005 7:16 AM

Still some crackers to come before the season is out :)

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, August 27, 2005 8:08 AM

word, Grounded. I just checked an episode guide and there's a couple of classics to see before the season's over.

Edited to add: I actually don't know what crackers means in this context. Is it a good thing? 'Cause that's what I took it to mean...

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, August 27, 2005 8:30 AM

Grounded,

No ANGEL Season 5 DVD's for you? :(

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, August 27, 2005 8:49 AM

THRAWN

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
7 more eps to go on this season. The fights in general have been much more ferocious than Buffy's (with the possible exception of Buffy vs. Faith), and I really like the visual style of the series.

Kek demon Chrisisall

Starting in season 2, the show starts to play a lot more with the concept that demons aren't necessarily evil, and there's one character in particular (you'll know who I'm talking about pretty quickly) that's a demon and the total antithesis of any of the others we've ever seen.

I found Angel S1 rather dull for exactly the reason you're describing; for lack of a better way to put it, everything was a little too cut and dry, even the episodes where they tried for moral ambiguity I thought were heavy-handed and obvious. The rest of the show alters that nicely.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, August 27, 2005 9:03 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Well, on the other hand, you have Babylon 5, and I personally found it to be boring and dry- too real for it's own good (funky aliens excluded).
So my view is definitly only one particular view...(plus: I'd take wacky over dry any day of the week).

All in all, I AM enjoying AtS, though.

Chrisisall

I have to say that I never found Babylon 5 dry, I always found it a rich tapestry of political manipulation and intrigue...
particularly among the wacky aliens.
Enterprisealways seemed the driest of the dry to me...no humor, no subtext, and no character layers (no one remembers what happened the week before during the current episode).

I had trouble getting into Ats during the first season, they had taken the two characters I cared the least about (Angel & Cordelia) and added a third who didn't seem more interesting to me....
but then,
as I was giving up on the show,
they started the cross over episodes w/Buffy
(I REALLY loved Oz & Spike showing up in LA),
and then Wesley...
have you gotten far enough for when Wesley hits town?
I LOVE Wesley!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, August 27, 2005 10:57 AM

HJERMSTED

I enjoyed but didn't LOVE Angel season 1. The show didn't resonate for me until season 2. Without spoiling too much... this is when the writers began introducing (and re-introducing) characters that would play (and had already played) big roles in the Angel mythos.

For the record, season 2, 3, and 5 are my favorite Angel seasons. So hang in there! Good stuff is on the way.

mattro

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, August 27, 2005 12:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:
word, Grounded. I just checked an episode guide and there's a couple of classics to see before the season's over.

Edited to add: I actually don't know what crackers means in this context. Is it a good thing? 'Cause that's what I took it to mean...

Another UKism creeping in then? If something is really good you can describe it as 'cracking'. It would therefore be a 'cracker'.

Batmarlowe: S5 DVDs are too pricey for me. They'll appear in some Fox promotion soon enough I suspect ;)

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, August 28, 2005 6:07 AM

Wesley, yeah. And I just saw the one w/Faith, she shakes up any episode!!!

Mayor Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, August 28, 2005 9:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Wesley, yeah. And I just saw the one w/Faith, she shakes up any episode!!!

Mayor Chrisisall

The end of Five by Five is the greatest moment in TV history ;)

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, August 28, 2005 10:47 AM

I'm gonna re-watch it tonight!! Then Sanctuary (which I haven't seen yet...)
So far, my two faves in AtS S1 were w/Buffy and Faith!

Old angst mine Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, August 28, 2005 12:09 PM

Five by Five/Sanctuary is a double-whammy of goodness :) I liked it better when they had stand-alone episodes following character arcs, with a little bit of plot arc in the background, punctuated by big two parters like this. It's the perfect TV formula :)

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, August 28, 2005 12:30 PM

Grounded, I'll be in trouble soon; Blockbuster has no more Angel for rent! After S1, I gotta go and buy S2!!!! But I also haven't seen Buffy S5!!!!!
Which should I get first? I have a feeling I might like AtS S2 better than BTVS S5, what do you think?

The idea of a Buffybot offends me Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, August 28, 2005 5:15 PM

GROOSALUGG

Up to you, chrisisall, but I'd suggest Buffy S5 first. There aren't many x-overs between the two shows during that season(s), but the two or three things that go from one to the next all start on Buffy and then move to Angel. The very last scene of the Angel S2 finale has a lot more meaning to it if you've seen the Buffy S5 finale first.

And BTW, reserve judgment on the Buffybot 'til you've actually seen it. Personally, I don't think Sarah was ever funnier or cuter than when she was playing the Bot.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, August 28, 2005 8:41 PM

GETBUFFED

the thing about the action and the ability for the monsters to be able to know martial arts is something you just gotta swallow during the first couple of episodes. The thing about Sci-fi is to learn the basic premise and happenings in the world ur diving into, once you have that down you judge it by those standards and the mythology presented.

I knew alot of people who were disturbed by the fact that skinny ol sarah michelle gellar was kickin butt and saving the world. the thing is they dont accept that the girl has super powers, abilities to heal and super accuracy and speed. They just see girl and that erases everything else. Thats actually a big problem alot of people have with Buffy, girl with power....alot of viewers feel more comfortable with Angel because he's a traditional hero, he's male. It's dumb, but what can you do?

I personally love Buffy among all Joss's creations. That show was truly unique.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, August 28, 2005 10:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GetBuffed:
Thats actually a big problem alot of people have with Buffy, girl with power....alot of viewers feel more comfortable with Angel because he's a traditional hero, he's male. It's dumb, but what can you do?

I don't know about you, but I think having practically every vampire and demon fighting in a martial arts style is so silly as to require significantly more suspension of disbelief than 'girl with power' or any of the other premises of the show. But maybe that's just me.

---

Serenity is coming. 9/30/05.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 29, 2005 6:51 AM

ODDNESS2HER

Oooh, I've been waiting for this opportunity!
I have my own little theory that helps me get past this very thing:

What we call martial arts originated with the demons. They all have the skills innately as part of their nature. Humans studied and learned their fighting techniques as a way of standing a chance of defending themselves.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 29, 2005 8:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
I kind of remember there was at least one episode where they self-referentially made fun of the fact that all vampires rise from the graves the first time with innate martial arts skills...

Does anyone remember what episode this was from? I've been wracking my brain and googling like crazy, but I can't find it. I know I saw it recently on TV, like in the last 2-3 weeks...

---

Serenity is coming. 9/30/05.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 29, 2005 8:27 AM

I absolutely loved 5x5 as well... the interaction of Faith and Wesley was just awesome. The shot of Wesley grabbing the knife and preparing to head out and kill faith was just chilling. That was the moment when I started to really respect that man.

With regards to Buffy s5 v. Angel s2 -- I guess you should get Buffy season 5 first, although I think AtSS2 is superior. With Buffy you get Hush and Fool For Love, but Angel gets you Reunion, Redefinition, Reprise, and the Dances of Joy and Honor.

Hrmm. OK, personally, I'd go with the Angel DVDs. It's not like you'll be missing much by not seeing Buffy first. But that's just my personal bias showing through. My guess is, pure momentum will cause you to buy the Angel DVDs first.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 29, 2005 8:37 AM

AMYEL

Dawn mentions in the first scene of "Lessons" (season 7 premiere) that vampires seem to catch on to the fancy martial arts pretty quickly.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 29, 2005 8:41 AM

AMYEL

Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:
With Buffy you get Hush and Fool For Love, but Angel gets you Reunion, Redefinition, Reprise, and the Dances of Joy and Honor.

Hush is season 4. Fool for Love is THE season 5 episode, as well as The Gift.

I like Buffy season 5. Buffy's slayer life and "real life" really start to conflict with each other, which makes things interesting.

But I love love love Angel season 2. Ooooh yeah, Angel and his wacky ass vamp family issues. Good times.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 29, 2005 9:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by amyel:
Dawn mentions in the first scene of "Lessons" (season 7 premiere) that vampires seem to catch on to the fancy martial arts pretty quickly.

THANK YOU!!! That was driving me crazy! :)

Here's the quote, for those who are interested in the self-mockery:

Quote:

BUFFY
It’s about power: who’s got it, who knows how to use it..

She tosses a stake to DAWN who stands at the foot of the grave.
BUFFY
So… who’s got the power, Dawn?
DAWN
Well, I’ve got the stake.
BUFFY
The stake is not the power.
DAWN
But he’s new. He doesn’t know his strength. He might not know
all those fancy martial arts skills they inevitably seem to pick up.
BUFFY
Who’s got the power?
DAWN
(sighs)
He does.

---

Serenity is coming. 9/30/05.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 29, 2005 10:20 AM

Chris,

If you've seen the final episode of ANGEL S1, it will greatly tempt you to want to start on S2.

But I would still recommend BUFFY S5 first.

I'm very much a pro-fiver, but that's not the point. S5 is a very significant season. And when you're finished you'll have ANGEL S2 to look forward to.

That my 2 cents.

I understand your initial reaction regarding the Buffybot. But Sarah's portrayal is a kick and she (it) is used effectively. You'll see.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 29, 2005 10:21 AM

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 29, 2005 11:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
Oooh, I've been waiting for this opportunity!
I have my own little theory that helps me get past this very thing:

What we call martial arts originated with the demons. They all have the skills innately as part of their nature. Humans studied and learned their fighting techniques as a way of standing a chance of defending themselves.

Kung-Fu has always mimicked animal forms, perhaps the earliest 'animals' mimicked were demons...?
If so, your theory is quite sound!

Whoah Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 29, 2005 11:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by amyel:
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:
With Buffy you get Hush and Fool For Love, but Angel gets you Reunion, Redefinition, Reprise, and the Dances of Joy and Honor.

Hush is season 4. Fool for Love is THE season 5 episode, as well as The Gift.

Ooops, that's right - I meant The Body, not Hush.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 29, 2005 11:39 AM

ODDNESS2HER

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
Oooh, I've been waiting for this opportunity!
I have my own little theory that helps me get past this very thing:

What we call martial arts originated with the demons. They all have the skills innately as part of their nature. Humans studied and learned their fighting techniques as a way of standing a chance of defending themselves.
Kung-Fu has always mimicked animal forms, perhaps the earliest 'animals' mimicked were demons...?
If so, your theory is quite sound!

Whoah Chrisisall

That's what I like about you, Chris: you're open to new ideas. Especially mine.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 29, 2005 11:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:

suspension of disbelief

I couldn't watch w/out it. Bigtime.

Kung-Fu demon Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, August 29, 2005 12:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
Oooh, I've been waiting for this opportunity!
I have my own little theory that helps me get past this very thing:

What we call martial arts originated with the demons. They all have the skills innately as part of their nature. Humans studied and learned their fighting techniques as a way of standing a chance of defending themselves.
Kung-Fu has always mimicked animal forms, perhaps the earliest 'animals' mimicked were demons...?
If so, your theory is quite sound!

Whoah Chrisisall

That's what I like about you, Chris: you're open to new ideas. Especially mine.

No, really! It makes a really weird kind of sense!
I think you really just helped me w/most of my problem- thanks!

Never thought about it before Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 5:53 AM

ODDNESS2HER

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
Oooh, I've been waiting for this opportunity!
I have my own little theory that helps me get past this very thing:

What we call martial arts originated with the demons. They all have the skills innately as part of their nature. Humans studied and learned their fighting techniques as a way of standing a chance of defending themselves.
Kung-Fu has always mimicked animal forms, perhaps the earliest 'animals' mimicked were demons...?
If so, your theory is quite sound!

Whoah Chrisisall

That's what I like about you, Chris: you're open to new ideas. Especially mine.
No, really! It makes a really weird kind of sense!
I think you really just helped me w/most of my problem- thanks!

Never thought about it before Chrisisall

You're most welcome!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 8:11 AM

Okay, I'm done w/AtS S1, and know what? My favourite eps were the ones w/Buffy and Faith.
I guess I just like Buffy better than Angel...

Buffy, BUFFY, BUFFY, BUFFY, Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 8:46 AM

Welp, I guess if your faves were the ones with Buffy and Faith, that does indeed answer your question.

What'd you think about those two with Faith? I thought they were fantastic. That story really drew me into ANGEL--made me want more.

What'd you think about the end of ep 22 of ANGEL? I couldn't wait to get the S2 DVD's after that.

I too can echo the sentiment buffy, Buffy, BUFFY!

But now *drum roll* BUFFY Season 5!

Looking forward to your reactions to it.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 8:59 AM

The Faith eps were awsome; she was so psycho from the start, at the club where she started the fight, and kept dancing!!!!
Her breakdown in front of Angel was touching (you know, like almost sad in a way), and it was cool to see her take the first step towards responsibility at the end.
The end show of Angel had me, um, well - I watched a Buffy ep right after

David just doesn't do it for me Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:09 AM

OK, you go watch Buffy season 5 first. It really is great, with a strong overall arc and some great individual episodes. But I still think Angel S2 is better, and you'll have to check that out at some point. David gets a lot more to do in the second season.

P.S. I never really cared for Angel when he was on Buffy.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:24 AM