Which episodes should I watch? by VisitingMyIntentions

ANGELUS ARCANUM

Which episodes should I watch?

POSTED BY: VISITINGMYINTENTIONS
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 01:49
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Wednesday, November 9, 2005 9:54 PM

Okay, so I'm not sure I should be posting this here or in the Buffy forum:

I don't like Angel. That said, I would love to see more of the Buffy characters I enjoyed so much and I know go on to have roles in Angel, which is to say, Faith and Spike (I believe Angel, Cordelia, and Wesley are the only other major carry-overs. Am I missing some?).

Given all that, which episodes should I watch?

"it has some sweet character deaths -- I mean moments!" - Joss Whedon

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Thursday, November 10, 2005 1:34 AM

PHOEBE

Uhm... for Faith you want 1.18 "Five by Five" and 1.19 "Sanctuary" (Buffy cameo). Also, 4.13 "Salvage", 4.14 "Release", and 4.15 "Orpheus" (Willow cameo), though the season four episode might be hard to understand since they come as the conclusion to a long arc of episodes.

For Spike, try 1.3 "In the Dark" and any of season 5; he's in the full season.

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Thursday, November 10, 2005 1:47 AM

GROUNDED

You don't like Xander or Angel? What is the world coming to...

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Thursday, November 10, 2005 2:16 AM

EMBERS

oh you need to give Wesley's character growth a chance...
he really does go through some amazing changes, and became my favorite character on 'Angel'

"I am a ROGUE demon hunter"
"what's a rogue demon?"

**********************************************
watch the R. Tam Session vids: http://www.hittarivertam.nu/
and buy the 'Serenity' comics published by Dark Horse,
and have you joined the Browncoats yet?
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Friday, November 11, 2005 4:00 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by VisitingMyIntentions:
Okay, so I'm not sure I should be posting this here or in the Buffy forum:

I don't like Angel. That said, I would love to see more of the Buffy characters I enjoyed so much and I know go on to have roles in Angel, which is to say, Faith and Spike (I believe Angel, Cordelia, and Wesley are the only other major carry-overs. Am I missing some?).

Given all that, which episodes should I watch?

"it has some sweet character deaths -- I mean moments!" - Joss Whedon

Not trying to change your mind, but just wonderin'...what is it you like about Buffy that you don't like about Angel ? No, they're not the same show, and to be honest, I prefer Angel over Buffy, so I'm just curious as to why anyone would favor one over the other.

Maybe there's a simple answer, and there's no real point in discussing this, OR, maybe I have too much time to waste on such topics ?

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, November 13, 2005 5:50 PM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS

Quote:
Originally posted by Phoebe:
Uhm... for Faith you want 1.18 "Five by Five" and 1.19 "Sanctuary" (Buffy cameo). Also, 4.13 "Salvage", 4.14 "Release", and 4.15 "Orpheus" (Willow cameo), though the season four episode might be hard to understand since they come as the conclusion to a long arc of episodes.

For Spike, try 1.3 "In the Dark" and any of season 5; he's in the full season.

Thanks!

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
You don't like Xander or Angel? What is the world coming to...

I know, I know. Terrible, isn't it? I mean, what's the world coming to?! Silly girl doesn't even much care for Serenity...

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
oh you need to give Wesley's character growth a chance...
he really does go through some amazing changes, and became my favorite character on 'Angel'

"I am a ROGUE demon hunter"
"what's a rogue demon?"

I dunno, I'm pretty unforgiving of what he did to Faith. Also, what a prig! And silly enough a character to be Cordelia's mate.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Not trying to change your mind, but just wonderin'...what is it you like about Buffy that you don't like about Angel ? No, they're not the same show, and to be honest, I prefer Angel over Buffy, so I'm just curious as to why anyone would favor one over the other.

Maybe there's a simple answer, and there's no real point in discussing this, OR, maybe I have too much time to waste on such topics ?

Difficult question, but I'll try to answer it. In return, you have to explain to me why you like Angel better, and what you perceive as the difference between the two shows.

1.) Buffy has a purpose behind the show. She's the Chosen. Angel's just hanging around, and decides to be a superhero. It seems to me very artificial set-up. I watched some of the first Angel episodes, and one point struck me: when he has the ring, he suddenly has the power to fight evil better than ever. What does he do? He smashes it explicitly because he wants to continue being all mopey (and thus retain the premise of the show).

2.) While Buffy was never my favourite character, I was always appalled by Angel's very abrupt "I'm going to be your mysterious and tortured stranger guy" set-up and David Boreanaz's complete lack of acting skills. He's introduced completely artificially, dies and is brought back completely artificially, then has to go away again and Buffy and he have this whole melodrama about it. He, Cordelia, Wesley ...3 of the least impressive characters from Buffy as main cast of the show--just doesn't entrance me.

OK, now it's your turn.

"it has some sweet character deaths -- I mean moments!" - Joss Whedon

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Sunday, November 13, 2005 7:06 PM

STAKETHELURK

Quote:
Buffy has a purpose behind the show. She's the Chosen. Angel's just hanging around, and decides to be a superhero.

Well, I don’t want to butt in on your conversation with AURaptor… except that’s what I’m doing. Sorry. Anyway, it sounds like you gave season one a try and then stopped (midway through?). Cuz, by the end of season one your point about Angel “not having a purpose” is very directly dealt with and shapes the entire rest of the series. I don’t know whether you’d want to be spoiled (or even if you care), but I can go into more detail if you’d like. But basically, going into the first season of Angel they had a plan for the show: It would be simpler, more monster-of-the-week and they’d get away from the big arcs over on Buffy. But by the end of season one, Joss had realized that, in his own words, “I suck at monster of the week!” The paradigm they’d gone in with didn’t work, so they ditched it and started building massive (and awesome) multiseason arcs that changed the characters in profound ways. In other words, season one is very shaky (IMO much shakier than Buffy season one) and does not represent the series as a whole. So, I really recommend checking out even just the Season one finale (if you can’t sit through the whole season) and move on to the magnificent season two.

As for crossover eps, here’s a few more for you that haven’t been mentioned:

(I’m assuming you’re not interested in seeing Julie Benz, who played Darla in Season 1 of BtVS and appeared in some Angel-centric flashbacks in seasons 2 & 3. Because if you are interested, she appears in every season of Angel, one way or another).

Season 2, Episode 7, “Darla.” Spike and Dru appear in this one; it’s a twin episode to “Fool for Love” and originally aired immediately after it. Watch them back to back so you get the whole story.

Season 2, Episode 9, “The Trial.” Drusilla appears very briefly in this one.

Season 2, Episode 10, “Reunion.” Drusilla also appears in this one.

Season 2, Episode 11, “Redefinition.” Drusilla also appears in this one.

Season 2, Episode 17, “Disharmony.” Both Willow and Harmony appear in this hilarious ep.

Season 5. You really should just watch this entire season. Spike appears in every ep and has a lot of great stuff to do, Wesley reaches new heights of awesomeness (don’t believe “Wesley” and “awesome” should go together? Watch and find out why), the season is designed to be fairly accessible to new viewers, and it deals very directly with some problems raised in Buffy’s seventh season. But if you want specific eps out of the season to watch, I recommend these two: Episode 8, “Destiny.” Spike is awesome in this, really, really awesome. Deals w/the season one spoiler I mentioned above. Definitely see this ep. If you hate Angel, all the more reason to watch it, actually.

Another episode to check out is Episode 11, “Damage.” Spike has a lot to do in this episode, but we also get to see Andrew, hear about what the Scoobies are up to, and examine the full repercussions of the spell in “Chosen.” But really, watch the whole season so you can hear Spike's near-constant mockery of Angel--always hilarious.

Anyway, that’s my interjection. But I really recommend giving Ats a second chance if you haven’t gotten to season two. Angel becomes more interesting, the series gets more focus, fascinating new characters are introduced, Wesley grows and changes in dramatic and tragic ways, and things overall just get *better*. Hopefully, some of the crossover eps will suck you in, if nothing else.

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Monday, November 14, 2005 12:06 PM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS

Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:
Anyway, it sounds like you gave season one a try and then stopped (midway through?). Cuz, by the end of season one your point about Angel “not having a purpose” is very directly dealt with and shapes the entire rest of the series. I don’t know whether you’d want to be spoiled (or even if you care), but I can go into more detail if you’d like. But basically, going into the first season of Angel they had a plan for the show: It would be simpler, more monster-of-the-week and they’d get away from the big arcs over on Buffy. But by the end of season one, Joss had realized that, in his own words, “I suck at monster of the week!” The paradigm they’d gone in with didn’t work, so they ditched it and started building massive (and awesome) multiseason arcs that changed the characters in profound ways. In other words, season one is very shaky (IMO much shakier than Buffy season one) and does not represent the series as a whole. So, I really recommend checking out even just the Season one finale (if you can’t sit through the whole season) and move on to the magnificent season two.

I admit, I only watched the first one or two discs, but given that this was written after Joss had reached with Buffy, and because I wasn't particularly inspired with the few random episodes from later seasons I caught here and there, I assumed that was how it would be. I'd agree that monster-of-the-week is a bad format, so changing that would be a step in the right direction. I'll watch the season 1 finale as you suggest, and see what I think.

Quote:
As for crossover eps, here’s a few more for you that haven’t been mentioned:

(I’m assuming you’re not interested in seeing Julie Benz, who played Darla in Season 1 of BtVS and appeared in some Angel-centric flashbacks in seasons 2 & 3. Because if you are interested, she appears in every season of Angel, one way or another).

Season 2, Episode 7, “Darla.” Spike and Dru appear in this one; it’s a twin episode to “Fool for Love” and originally aired immediately after it. Watch them back to back so you get the whole story.

Oh, I actually like what little we saw of Darla on Buffy, but not enough to watch episodes purely for her sake. ...The only villain besides Warren that ever *thinks* to use a gun on the slayer.

Quote:
Season 2, Episode 17, “Disharmony.” Both Willow and Harmony appear in this hilarious ep.

Harmony!

Quote:
...But if you want specific eps out of the season to watch, I recommend these two: Episode 8, “Destiny.” Spike is awesome in this, really, really awesome. Deals w/the season one spoiler I mentioned above. Definitely see this ep. If you hate Angel, all the more reason to watch it, actually.

Tease!

Now I have to go see it. grmbl

"it has some sweet character deaths -- I mean moments!" - Joss Whedon

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Sunday, January 22, 2006 6:39 PM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS

Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:
Season 5. You really should just watch this entire season. Spike appears in every ep and has a lot of great stuff to do,

Well, I finally sat down and did just that. I sat through seven episodes thinking, *when will someone write some decent Spike; that's the only thing keeping me hanging in here*...

Quote:
But if you want specific eps out of the season to watch, I recommend these two: Episode 8, “Destiny.” Spike is awesome in this, really, really awesome. Deals w/the season one spoiler I mentioned above. Definitely see this ep.

..and then I saw "Destiny." Suddenly a wonderfully written episode (not to mention lots of Spike), and I figured that Angel did have good writers after all! I've enjoyed a fair number of the episodes since. Thanks for the recommendations. I haven't finished season 5 yet, and I don't anticipate becoming a rabid AtS fan, but I am certainly enjoying them.

"it has some sweet character deaths -- I mean moments!" - Joss Whedon

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Monday, January 23, 2006 11:41 AM

STAFDUDE

you dont like angel, but you like buffy? whats wrong w u? ;)

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Monday, January 23, 2006 4:11 PM

TORTIMER

I feel similar to the OP. Buffy is one of my all time favorite TV series. I do like Angel but nothing even close to as much as I like Buffy.

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Monday, January 23, 2006 5:53 PM

AMYEL

Wesley becomes so awesome, you just have no idea. His silliness goes away very quickly after he shows up in L.A. If you think you'll never forgive him for what he did to Faith, you have to watch Five by Five. Faith deals with that in her own special way. She teaches us all about the five basic torture groups. Lots of things to learn and know. ;-) That episode starts Wesley on his path to becoming a badass. Wesley is just so screwed up and nothing ever goes right for him. How he never actually outright killed himself is a miracle. He also had the uncanny ability to get hotter the worse his life became.

But anyways, I wouldn't judge Angel, Cordelia, and Wesley by their characters on BTVS. They change a lot. I hated Angel on BTVS because he was the boring, kinda stalkery, letch of a too-old-boyfriend, but once he had his own show he got a lot better. Boreanaz's acting gets better around actors in which he has good chemistry--especially Darla and Spike. Angel is such a prick, but also a complete loveable dork. I like how he has complexity and a lack of complexity all at the same time.

As for must-see episodes, I would definitely recommend the previously mentioned Five By Five/Sanctuary arc (it's kind of like the sequel to Who are You/This Year's Girl), the Angel/Darla episodes of season 2-- Dear Boy, Darla, The Trial, Reunion, Redefinition, and then throw in some Reprise in there for good measure because it's sort of hot. I would also say Lullaby from season 3, but then that would just confuse the hell out of anyone who hadn't seen anything that came before it in that season. And then it's mandatory to watch anything where Angel/Spike have a scene just to themselves in Angel season 5. Their "alone" moments are gorgeous... not just in a homoerotic sort of way (though that is kinda sexy), but the actors work so well together and the characters have a very fascinating relationship that deals with history, jealousy, sibling rivalry, and understanding.

Angel does choose to be mopey and broody. The issues of guilt and redemption are huge themes on the show. It plays off his human (and green demon) friends, who in contrast, have not murdered thousands of people for fun and don't feel the need to redeem themselves by being heroes; they genuinely want to do good. In season five it gets especially fascinating when Angel is sort of compared/contrasted with Spike, who is much more pragmatic in his approach to redemption.

I love all of Joss's shows for different reasons. For Angel... for me it's all about the hot vamp action, plus Wesley.

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Sunday, January 29, 2006 3:17 PM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS

Quote:
Originally posted by amyel:
Wesley becomes so awesome, you just have no idea. His silliness goes away very quickly after he shows up in L.A. If you think you'll never forgive him for what he did to Faith, you have to watch Five by Five. Faith deals with that in her own special way. She teaches us all about the five basic torture groups. Lots of things to learn and know. ;-) That episode starts Wesley on his path to becoming a badass. Wesley is just so screwed up and nothing ever goes right for him. How he never actually outright killed himself is a miracle. He also had the uncanny ability to get hotter the worse his life became.

Hotter? Really? Because I found fluttery condescending control freak much more endearing than broody condescending control freak (that goes for Angel as well). I don't understand, having only met Fred in season 5, why she would go for the guy. I don't know what history was between them, but I understand she was previously involved with Gunn. If she has to be romantically attached to anyone, why not the hot warrior-lawyer who knows his Gilbert & Sullivan?

Quote:
But anyways, I wouldn't judge Angel, Cordelia, and Wesley by their characters on BTVS. They change a lot. I hated Angel on BTVS because he was the boring, kinda stalkery, letch of a too-old-boyfriend, but once he had his own show he got a lot better. Boreanaz's acting gets better around actors in which he has good chemistry--especially Darla and Spike. Angel is such a prick, but also a complete loveable dork. I like how he has complexity and a lack of complexity all at the same time.

I didn't really see Angel change much at all (except for stopping dating underage girls). I must admit, juxtapose Cordy with Angel and you really get to appreciating her a lot more. She and Harmony both get to shine a lot more on the new show.

Quote:
As for must-see episodes, I would definitely recommend the previously mentioned Five By Five/Sanctuary arc (it's kind of like the sequel to Who are You/This Year's Girl), the Angel/Darla episodes of season 2-- Dear Boy, Darla, The Trial, Reunion, Redefinition, and then throw in some Reprise in there for good measure because it's sort of hot.

I've seen the Faith stuff (wasn't too impressed, sorry), but thanks for elaborating on which episodes cover the Darla arc. I was curious about it, but the only one I knew of was the obviously titled "Darla."

Quote:
I would also say Lullaby from season 3, but then that would just confuse the hell out of anyone who hadn't seen anything that came before it in that season. And then it's mandatory to watch anything where Angel/Spike have a scene just to themselves in Angel season 5. Their "alone" moments are gorgeous... not just in a homoerotic sort of way (though that is kinda sexy), but the actors work so well together and the characters have a very fascinating relationship that deals with history, jealousy, sibling rivalry, and understanding.

I've finished S5 now, and I loved all the Angel/Spike (although not in a particularly slashy fashion..."except for that once" ;). I think at times they rather flattened Spike's character, but it was enjoyable nonetheless. Actually, my favourite not ex-BtVS character was Illyria. It's sad she had so little time to develope. So how 'bout another season, then, eh?

"it has some sweet character deaths -- I mean moments!" - Joss Whedon

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Monday, January 30, 2006 12:46 PM

AMYEL

Hotter? Really? Because I found fluttery condescending control freak much more endearing than broody condescending control freak

His smoldering hot pain (aka the Scruffy years) took place in the latter half of season 3 and then most of season 4. (Personally, I'm not a big fan of those seasons, but WesAngst makes it worthwhile for me) Since you've seen season 5, you know that Angel had his friend's memories modified... so Wesley's angstiness was taken away quite a bit. Once he gets his real memories back he just goes sort of crazy, so that's not really his hot self either.

I don't understand, having only met Fred in season 5, why she would go for the guy. I don't know what history was between them, but I understand she was previously involved with Gunn. If she has to be romantically attached to anyone, why not the hot warrior-lawyer who knows his Gilbert & Sullivan?

Wesley and Fred have known each other since late season 2 (that's when Fred shows up). They never got together before because Wesley sucks at timing. First he was sort of freaked out by his actions during the events in "Billy" (a great Wes-centric episode), and then later Fred got REALLY freaked out by Wes's actions later on in season 3. Then their memories were modified, which made it easier for them to get together in "Smile Time."

Fred not being with Gunn anymore was due to events surrounding a murder that happened in "Supersymmetry." What it really was was that they had idealized each other and once that pedestal they had put each other on came down, they sort of fizzled after that.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 3:07 AM

GARYPRYKE

Just start at Season 5 because it is a very good jumping on point for anyone (including people who've seen neither Buffy nor Angel). If you watch any of Season 4 your head will explode unless you start for Season 1. Please do not test this theory, once your head gets all exploded you're screwed.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 6:23 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

I'm no doubt a sucker, because Angel pulled me in pretty early. I say this having NEVER had the desire to even see the show when it was still on the air. I only came to Angel after getting hooked on Buffy - again after that show was over. I remember thinking and saying that "Angel" was one of the stupidest show ideas I'd ever heard when it came out - and feeling much the same about Buffy.

Then I caught a few eps of BTVS on the FX network in syndication last summer, and the wit and writing just sucked me right in, like few other shows ever have. In the space of a few short weeks, I was buying Buffy seasons on DVD, then decided I *had* to see Angel just to stay current on the Buffy stuff. That's what I told myself - "I'll just watch this so I don't miss anything in the GOOD show." Yeah. Right.

By midway through S1 of Angel, I was hooked into that world as well. Watching Angel wasn't a chore; it was a reward! I looked forward as much to the next disk of Angel as I did the next one of Buffy. Some episodes of each were harder to get through than others, but all were entertaining, and some were brilliant. And at the end of each series, I wanted more. Actually, I thought Buffy had a pretty great finale. And the Angel finale was AMAZING, even though they thought they were coming back for another season at the time. I'd like to see more of the Buffyverse, but if it all ended with "Not Fade Away", it was a hell of an note to go out on.

For me, it was all worth it, every single minute. Towards the end of Angel S5, there was a moment that just seemed to sum up perfectly the relationship between Spike and Angel. It's a sort of "Last Supper" scene, with all the major players meeting around a conference table in Angel's office. Angel says, "One of you will betray me..." And immediately Spike's hand shoots up, volunteering! :) No words were even necessary for Spike; we got to see the penultimate snapshot of their "friendship", and where it had led them.

Mike

A baby seal walks into a club...

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Wednesday, March 15, 2006 1:49 AM

GARYPRYKE

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And the Angel finale was AMAZING, even though they thought they were coming back for another season at the time.

At the time the episode was being written they knew they weren't coming back. If you examine the plot you'll notice that the whole idea of Angel having his destiny taken away from him is kind of like the Show having it's destiny taken away since there would not be a Season 6. I have read some Joss thoughts on Season 6 and what would have happened if you want to know.

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