I give: Angel rocks! Somebody hand me a spoiler... by chrisisall

Thanks em, that's kinda what I gathered from other sources (DVD Verdict LOVES all things Joss), but I hear ANYTHING'S worth it for the final season...
So little time, so many comic books to sell...

Chrisisall fangy and such

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Monday, October 10, 2005 7:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:

Saw the BDM twice more this weekend and gotta say - if you've only seen it once, go see it again AND AGAIN - it gets better every time!!!

My wife said it was finely crafted with many layers, like a great play (she's a writer-type).
It DEMANDS repeat viewings!

Did you think the comic fit in well? I just got the third issue the other day, and loved how it connected the series to the movie; I only wish it had been filmed as an episode!!!

Chrisisall, who really likes Angel (as opposed to 'loves' Dark Angel)

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Monday, October 10, 2005 8:00 AM

EMBERS

Chris...I figured you must have heard some stuff,
but remember: even the worst episodes are always totally fun!
Have you met The Host (Loren) yet?

And Zoot, I REALLY agree! I enjoyed 'Serenity' WAY more the 2nd time,
and even more the third time....

partly it was catching lines I had missed earlier,
partly it was seeing & sharing it with friends.

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Monday, October 10, 2005 8:04 AM

MSCKAREN

"that will help me not go "AH, this is wrong!!" "

Besides the fact they cancelled it?! :-(

I too was not that keen on most of Season 4 but the episode where

Select to view spoiler:

they bring Angelus back just rocked!!

And Wesley's new "girlfriend"!

and the stuff that happens at/to Wolfram and Hart law firm = perfection

I prefer to focus on the stuff I like and forget the stuff I don't. I never felt like any of the episodes was a total waste of time. There's always at least one scene that makes the time investment worthwhile. YMMV.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Appears they've cancelled the show and we're still here. What does that make us?"
"Big damn junkies, Sir!"
"Ain't we just."
http://karenallover.blogspot.com/

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Monday, October 10, 2005 8:08 AM

ZOOT

Yes, oh fangy one (is there a side order of veiny to go with that?), I LOVED the comics ….

When I got them I was slightly befuddled by the clothing and cover art – now why is Wash wearing pilot-style lederhosen, I thought to myself and where are Mal’s brown pants with the natty stripe … Then I saw the BDM and thought to myself – Ah I get ya – how apposite …. There in the comics was a teeny weeny spoiler – had I but known …

The second time I saw the BDM I did feel my self spacing at odd moments to look at the lovely way Mr Fillion’s trousers fit… Someone had to hit me during the Inara/ Mal wave scene and I discovered there is such a thing as TOO MUCH drool … I thought it was just me, but the 2 girls I was with had a lot to say about the way a gun belt can emphasise a man’s assets (our post movie talk really was an incisive deconstruction of the cinematic form *heavy irony*)…

‘Course, the gay man I was with would not shut up about Simon – sigh!

But in the third viewing I managed to tear my eyes from Mal’s backside and consider the costumes, the new look to Serenity’s cargo bay and how much Summer Glau has come on … GOD I love that movie!! I did notice that they never refer to the ship as a firefly, so am guessing if you’d never seen the series, you’d never know –which is a bit sad somehow …

Also interested to learn today (reading my visual companion) that Joss had the exact same scheme mapped out for the series … glad he knew it all long before … makes me trust him more somehow …

***************************************

Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.

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Monday, October 10, 2005 8:10 AM

ZOOT

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
Chris...I figured you must have heard some stuff,
but remember: even the worst episodes are always totally fun!
Have you met The Host (Loren) yet?

And Zoot, I REALLY agree! I enjoyed 'Serenity' WAY more the 2nd time,
and even more the third time....

partly it was catching lines I had missed earlier,
partly it was seeing & sharing it with friends.

The final time I saw it I was completely alone and two rows in front of all the other occupants of the theatre ... I love the feeling of hardly being there at all because you're so involved - lovely ...

***************************************

Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.

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Monday, October 10, 2005 8:18 AM

BECKINSALE

I have to go with what others have said.

Select to view spoiler:

The Cordy/Connor situation in s4 is, well, icky and unpleasant. But the return of Angelus is FABULOUS. As are episodes like “Spin the Bottle.”

Season 5 is worth every questionable moment. I’m, at this very second, in the middle of watching the series finale. Again. For the five millionth time.

Angel was always my least favorite Joss project... until about a month ago when I went and bought seasons 3-5 on a whim. I haven’t stopped obsessing and I’m now fairly certain Alexis Denisof and Amy Acker are my favorite actors in the entire universe. Or as close to that as possible.

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Monday, October 10, 2005 8:30 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Did you think the comic fit in well? I just got the third issue the other day, and loved how it connected the series to the movie; I only wish it had been filmed as an episode!!!

I just can't say enough about how much I LOVE the comics!
Did you notice the grenade joke that went from comic to movie?
(I love having a joke set up from a different medium!)

I would have loved having it as an episode too,
but since that isn't a choice then I'll just hope for more comics!

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Monday, October 10, 2005 8:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:
Also interested to learn today (reading my visual companion) that Joss had the exact same scheme mapped out for the series

Then that feeling of seeing a full season download to my brain I get from the BDM is fully justified.
It's such a rush!

Chrisisall, worshiping at the Joss altar

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Monday, October 10, 2005 8:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
[Did you notice the grenade joke that went from comic to movie? I'll just hope for more comics!

Yes, I did, and me, too!

Chrisisall

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Monday, October 10, 2005 8:47 AM

LOVOK

I like "Angel" a lot, but it's also my least favorite Joss project. For me it goes Buffy, Firefly, then Angel. I feel S5 is the best season too.

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Monday, October 10, 2005 9:19 AM

ZEEK

Just don't get too excited for Season 4. Joss pulls one of his classic moves and goes someplace no one was expecting. It's like a bomb with a fuse that you watch burning away and then just when you expect an explosion you find out it's a dud. So, just go in and enjoy each episode for what it is and not what you expect it to build up to.

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Monday, October 10, 2005 9:49 AM

EST120

Oh boy, asking for spoilers. Here are some of mine that (I think) no one else mentioned that I feel are significant:

Select to view spoiler:

Season 4:
Wesley has an affair with Lilah who eventually gets stabbed in the throat by Cordelia. Wesley then cuts off Lilah's head to prevent her turning into a vampire because the initial assumption is that Angel/Angelus killed her.

Season 5:
Cordelia wakes up from her coma and helps Angel expose Lindsay to the senior partners who promptly whisk him off to a holding Hell dimension. Cordelia then leaves and it is revealed that she never actually woke up from her coma. Angel is then informed that she has died.

I could go on and on and summarize the entire two seasons for you, but what is the fun in that?!

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Monday, October 10, 2005 10:07 AM

est120: You thought those were problems? Those were two of my favorite bits in seasons 4 and 5!

Chris, the consensus is pretty much correct, and for the reasons they gave, season 4 is probably the weakest. But it's still ambitious as hell, the fight scenes are incredible, and I frankly love the hell out of it.

My biggest issue with the remaining seasons:

Select to view spoiler:

Angel's son turns into a little shit that I can't stand.

But it was probably on purpose.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

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Monday, October 10, 2005 3:57 PM

AMYGDALA

You're probably all spoilered out by now, and regretting that you even asked. But there is one spoiler that I wish I'd encountered, which would have prepared me better for the one event that I just couldn't get past. It may even have stopped me from watching.

Be warned, it happens near the end of season five. A lot of people loved this season, and felt this event was justified by what came after. They may even feel that it's better to experience it unprepared. So consider carefully before you read this. I haven't identified whom it concerns, but it may be easy enough to guess.

Select to view spoiler:

The character who least deserves it (I use this as a comparative term - nobody deserves this), the most innocent character, dies in great pain, betrayed by friends. Their soul is completely destroyed. The death serves no real heroic end as such. The group dynamic after this is changed, what little heart left is gone. I found I didn't really care what happened to anybody after that.

Like I said, well aware I'm in the minority here. I can usually handle the painful, emotional stuff, if I feel that it serves a greater goal. I know reality's not like that, but I get to deal with reality every day.

That's why it's called escapism

. I'm all for it.

----
"She was naked, and all ... articulate."

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Monday, October 10, 2005 4:59 PM

DIETCOKE

You are just now experiencing Angel? Welcome! After you see this I have more for your entertainment.

NY/NJ Browncoats: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly_nyc

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Monday, October 10, 2005 5:28 PM

Amygdala, I have to take issue with the

Select to view spoiler:

"betrayed by friends"

description. Without giving away any further spoilers, half of that episode was about the rest of the group doing everything they could to prevent it. Yes, there was an "out" offered at the end, but given the cost associated with it, I can't fault the choice that was made.

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Monday, October 10, 2005 5:37 PM

AMYGDALA

I was being a bit vague.

Select to view spoiler:

I meant only two friends, one was a real friend and didn't know what it was they were doing, one seemed to be a friend but wasn't

.

See? I like vague.

----
"She was naked, and all ... articulate."

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Monday, October 10, 2005 8:52 PM

Okay, gotcha. Based on the clarification, I'll go along with you on it, then.

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 1:34 AM

EST120

Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:
est120: You thought those were problems? Those were two of my favorite bits in seasons 4 and 5!

Not at all. I thought the oringal poster was interested in things that were major developments, not just things that annoyed other viewers. I think both of those points were ones that kind of shocked me when I first saw them, that is why I mentioned them.

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 3:10 AM

Thanks everyone, I guess I'm prepared....

BDM spoilers were the only ones I needed to avoid Chrisisall

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 12:11 PM

GROUNDED

I'm not sure why you wanted to know any spoilers...

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 12:49 PM

It's like getting a shot. Some do better not knowing, and some, like me, want to look at the needle going in. This way I'm not shocked at a severe change in character or plot, which tends to make me want to go "Okay, I've had enough of this!"
Now I'll go "Well, I knew this was coming, but it's not the entire story here."

Call it my need to know.

Chrisisall, tossing in a Crow quote

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Thursday, October 13, 2005 11:26 AM

GROUNDED

But would you have enjoyed the earlier seasons as much if you'd known what was happening? Or did you in fact know roughly what was happening?

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Thursday, October 13, 2005 12:47 PM

I knew every major plot point in Buffy all the way up to the finale of S5, and it didn't bother me in the least- it's fantasy, and taken as such, I don't feel like I'm watching real people, like I do in FF/Serenity. For instance Doyle's departure from Angel- I knew it beforehand, but it still made me go "WHOAH!"- knowing in advance prepared me. I tend to resent being manipulated for the sake of manipulation, unless I'm prepared.
In Serenity's case, I felt real emotion for real death, I don't feel manipulated because the characters and their actions rang as true as real life (hard to achieve this feel with so much latex involved as in Buffy and Angel ).

Somehow it worked on Dark Angel, though Chrisisall

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Thursday, October 13, 2005 5:36 PM

Severe character change brings up the greatest character evolution I ever witnessed on television. Wesley might not seem like it now, but he becomes the biggest badass in the 'verse. Brilliantly.

Off to watch an episode...

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

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Thursday, October 13, 2005 6:42 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
My wife said it was finely crafted with many layers, like a great play (she's a writer-type).
It DEMANDS repeat viewings!

Hey, that's what I said to all those naysayers who didn't like Serenity. Go see it again, I said. It's got layers, I said. Joss turns out to be a playwright, I said. Ahhhh...vindicated.

I was going to start a thread called, "I thought Joss was a doughy hack til I saw Serenity." I wanted to talk about how the movie shows that Joss is not simply an entertaining TV/soap opera writer after all. The problem, if you will, with Serenity is that it feels more like a play disguised as a movie. It's unexpected, so naturally, people are going to be disappointed. But if you see the same story in a theatre where people watch plays by Ibsen and Williams and Shaw... then Zoe's muted grief becomes profound. I digress.... Maybe I oughta start that thread after all.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Thursday, October 13, 2005 7:02 PM

ERELLEVENT

Im going to tell you that your not going to get the full angel emotions now that you've been spoiled on the whole series. Im suprised all of these people actually told you them, but maybe thats because they didn't like this stuff that happens. But there are alot of people who didn't mind these things and think Angel season 4 is really good and you may never know which side you would of fell on now that you know whats going to happen.

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Thursday, October 13, 2005 7:03 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Seeing as I'm hooked, what's the one stupid or hard to deal with thing I should know ahead of time

Ah, I love Angel. I dare say I love Angel more than even Dark Angel Season 1 (gasp). Part of the reason is the wickedness of David Greenwalt's twisted mind. If you like the intricate set-ups to deceive and manipulate that Wolfram & Hart and Darla execute in Season 2, you should check out Greenwalt's "Profit" after you're done with Angel. You'll see that much of those plot twists probably come from David rather than Joss.

Joss' plot twists are actually quite predictable. People switch love interests, good people do evil things and evil folks do good things, people die suddenly and sometimes get resurrected, and fragile adolescent girls kick ass.

Just remember, no matter how absurd a plot seems to be, Joss' gift is that he can somehow make it emotionally compelling. So it *feels* real even if it sounds kinda bizarre.

Wait til you get to the end of Season 3. I ran out of money and had to wait weeks to get S4--thought I was gonna die from the suspense!

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Thursday, October 13, 2005 7:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Wait til you get to the end of Season 3. I ran out of money and had to wait weeks to get S4--thought I was gonna die from the suspense!

Unfortunately, Greenwalt left at the end of 3, which probably explains many of the problems 4 suffered from. Totally agree with everything you said--Greenwalt "got" Angel better than Joss ever did, and even as good as S5 was, he was missed in those last two years...

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Friday, October 14, 2005 11:09 AM

Definitly. Start a 'Layers of the play: Serenity' thread or some such thing. Make it fancy to get the well-read intellectual types to comment!

Chrisisall, not so well read

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Friday, October 14, 2005 11:28 AM

CAPTAINCDC

Just remember Chrisisall to take what everybody says with a grain of salt. There are those of us out there that feel S3&S4 of Angel are the best or right up there with the best. So keep an open mind as you watch the rest of the series, you might just be surprised as to which ones you like or dislike.

---------------------------------------

The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason!

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Friday, October 14, 2005 12:44 PM

It all depends on how I like the Cordy in Pylea thing. I wish I could just take 6 hrs out of time to watch the rest all at once, this one ep a night gig is killing me!!

Chrisisall

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Saturday, October 15, 2005 10:06 AM

The Pylea arc gets a lot o crap, but honestly I really enjoyed it. It really expanded the mythology of the show, Angel provided some great laughs (there's nothing better than taking time to set someone up as a really dark, brooding character and then having them crack a joke), and Wesley has some excellent character development:
"If you try to keep anyone from getting killed, you'll get everybody killed."
Cold as ice and totally right.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

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Saturday, October 15, 2005 5:32 PM

The only thing not to like about the Pylea arc is the placement of it--it's a weird fit as a season-ender. But otherwise, I really enjoyed it.

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Sunday, October 16, 2005 1:54 AM

GROUNDED

That's been mentioned a few times before in interviews - they wrapped the main arc up a little too quickly and had to come up with some new way to end the season.

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Sunday, October 16, 2005 7:30 AM

I think there were casting issues, weren't there? Julie Benz couldn't be there, so they had to wrap up the Darla storyline (or at least that part of it) sooner than they would've liked. In any case, Pylea gets a thumbs up from me. Plus, any episode that puts Joss on screen doing the Dances of Joy and Honor is gold in my book.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

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Monday, November 28, 2005 3:57 AM

BELFASTBROWNCOAT

What I enjoyed most about Angel is the development of Wesley's character. Alexis is soooo good at it!!

I think it's a great show-some stronger seasons than others,but I was sad to see it go.

As far as the BDM-LOVED it! I was introduced to a whole wealth of new characters and premise. Made me buy Firefly the next day and OBSESS over it!

So,to sum up,Joss rocks!

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Monday, November 28, 2005 11:13 PM

BATMARLOWE

I knew this was your thread, man. I just knew it (even though I discovered it a month and a half after you first posted it)!

Glad you're enjoying S2. It's my personal favorite. Strongest storyline, most interesting plotting, I think it's the best season for the development of Angel as a character too.

I hope you didn't read ALL of these spoilers because...well you're spoiled. Just my opinion, but I think if you read all of these then some of the more interesting character developments and intriguing elements of plot won't have the impact they could. I think this thread has more than just "speedbumps" (like that term), but one person's speedbump is another person's huge spoiler.

I think 3,4, and 5 are weaker on story arc and stronger on the characters that aren't Angel. The thing I think of most when I think of 3,4, and 5 is the evolution of Wes. To me that's the the most compelling element of these seasons. I have a LOT to say about 3,4, and 5 but I won't get into it because you know enough already.

And like every Joss episode there's going to be something to get out of it--a line, a moment, an interesting idea--something to make you say "even if I didn't like that episode, I liked this part".

I suppose by now you've finished S2. Is switching over to BUFFY 6 still the plan?

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Tuesday, November 29, 2005 6:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
I suppose by now you've finished S2. Is switching over to BUFFY 6 still the plan?

Sad to say, I think I've gone as far as I'm gonna. Season 2 of Angel was totally enjoyable, but not enough (for me) to shell out more coin for 3 more seasons.
And Buffy 6 remains a possibility, but not an immediate necessity, nothing can compare to 2 and 3 IMHO. My next most immediate needs are Battlestar Galactica, season 2.1, and The Flash!

Barry Allen Chrisisall, in a Viper

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Tuesday, November 29, 2005 6:57 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Dood I wont give you any spoilers but you iz in for some 'seriously' good STUNT WORK season 4 in particular!!!. You're gonna wet ya loin cloth!!!!

Enjoy it buddy it's a hell of a show... seriously!!!!

S

P.S. season 3 is the best season!

www.cirqus.com

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Tuesday, November 29, 2005 6:59 AM

BATMARLOWE

We're in total agreement about 2 and 3. The DVD's for the rest are too much to shell out if you're lukewarm to them. But it would be good to someday rent the rest of the BUFFY and ANGEL saga. Just so you'll have the whole picture.

Plus Joss is going to write a post season 7 BUFFY comic book. If you have any interest in that it would be good to know what happened in S7. But you can get spoilers on that too.

One more enticement about BUFFY 7 and ANGEL 4...

Faith!

Anyway, sorry we won't be going through the rest of ANGEL and BUFFY with you but I hope you enjoy BG and THE FLASH.

Your Jossy pal,

batmarlowe

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Tuesday, November 29, 2005 7:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
One more enticement about BUFFY 7 and ANGEL 4...

Faith!

UM, Faith is in Buffy 7? This I did not know...
Is she just in a few eps, or most of the season?
(I loved her appearance in Angel)

Chrisisall, gettin' interested....

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Tuesday, November 29, 2005 7:17 AM

STAKETHELURK

Faith is in, I think, the last five episodes of Buffy Season 7. She also has an awesome 3 episode run in Angel Season 4, preceding her crossing back over to BtVS. She plays a big role in the end of BtVS, and an important role in the course of Angel's season (Faith vs Angelus!)

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Tuesday, November 29, 2005 11:20 AM

BATMARLOWE

What Stakethelurk said.

Getting interested huh...?

Uh-oh.

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Tuesday, November 29, 2005 5:33 PM