Question for all Buffy/Angel/Firefly fans (small spoilers) by mphillips

ANGELUS ARCANUM

Question for all Buffy/Angel/Firefly fans (small spoilers)

POSTED BY: MPHILLIPS
UPDATED: Friday, May 19, 2006 06:11
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VIEWED: 5183
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Monday, May 1, 2006 3:37 PM

Ok having now watched all of Firefly, All of Angel, and most of Buffy......

Why was any browncoat surprised and or outraged at the fate of some major characters in the movie..given Joss' track record on Angel and Buffy? Kinda makes one wonder at just how dark and depressing Firefly would have gotten to had it as long a run as the other two....
just throwin' it up for discussion

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Monday, May 1, 2006 3:48 PM

JADEHAND

some of them hadn't watched Buffy and Angel.

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But you might as well talk to the stones and the trees and the sea
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Monday, May 1, 2006 3:48 PM

DEWRASTLER

I think what outraged people the most is that we got to see so little of these characters. We saw the full arcs of characters in his others shows, and now we'll never get that chance. Also, some of these characters just mean more to us than those from other shows.

One day.
One plan.
One army of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 4:01 PM

NANDI

I'm not too surprised, but like the other post mentioned, it was harder because you don't get hardly a chance to form much more of an opinion about the characters other than getting to fall in love with them, before one gets killed off. In Buffy, you saw Spike go from being bad to good, Angel from good to bad to good again, and so on...I think that even if some had died or changed, new characters would have been brought in to change the dynamics, but now we will never know.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 4:24 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by mphillips:
Ok having now watched all of Firefly, All of Angel, and most of Buffy......

Why was any browncoat surprised and or outraged at the fate of some major characters in the movie..given Joss' track record on Angel and Buffy? Kinda makes one wonder at just how dark and depressing Firefly would have gotten to had it as long a run as the other two....
just throwin' it up for discussion

Hope? A belief that Firefly was somehow 'different' ?? Well, ok. We knew it was bound to happen, but 2 main characters in one movie ? I think many die hard fans thought that was a bit too much to take. Even for Joss. I always had a feeling that something about Book made him a candidate for an early exit. But Wash? Makes it hard to watch the series DVDs knowing his fate. That's my $0.02 worth.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 1, 2006 4:59 PM

JOSSISAGOD

What outraged me the most was that even though the characters of Firefly/Serenity had a short span, I was more invested in them than I was in either Buffy or Angel's characters. I didn't just feel like it was a great TV show to watch and enjoy like I thought of Buffy and Angel. I actually felt that I was living with these characters, rather than watching them.

JOSSIS(Most Definitely)AGOD

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Monday, May 1, 2006 5:11 PM

EVILDINOSAUR

Yea, I went into the movie expecting someone to die. I know Joss goes by the mindset that in order for something monumental to happen, someone has to die. And yet, when he killed Wash, I was shocked, that's just how genius he is...the bastard lol. I love him.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Tuesday, May 2, 2006 9:58 AM

DEWRASTLER

Another thing with Wash's death was it was so sudden. I mean, Book had a death scene and you had time to accept it. Same as Doyle in Angel, we only had a few episodes with him but when he died he was given a chance to say a few words and it was his choice. With Wash it was just, "I'm a leaf on the wind.." then big giant spike through the chest. No one was preapared for it.

One day.
One plan.
One army of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

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Wednesday, May 3, 2006 8:01 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by mphillips:
Kinda makes one wonder at just how dark and depressing Firefly would have gotten to had it as long a run as the other two....

I think we got off easy with Serenity, a seven year run would have given us more deaths, more heartbreak, and more darkness than we ever experienced in just that one movie.
But we would have gotten MORE FF, too.
Which is better, I don't know.

As ever, love your art, Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 17, 2006 12:37 PM

RUGBUG

Because their deaths killed hope? I know how unrealistic it is to think that Firefly will come back...but I still have hope. Killing main characters meant that if it did, by some small chance get to come back, it wouldn't be the same.

And really, Buffy and Angel main characters were tortured/transformed etc, but who was out and out killed? Doyle and Cordy from Angel (and good riddance Cordy...at least Joss made us hate her before she died) and Tara, who, to me, always remained on the periphery of the Scoobies, from Buffy.

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Wednesday, May 17, 2006 12:56 PM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
And really, Buffy and Angel main characters were tortured/transformed etc, but who was out and out killed? Doyle and Cordy from Angel (and good riddance Cordy...at least Joss made us hate her before she died) and Tara, who, to me, always remained on the periphery of the Scoobies, from Buffy.

Also Jenny Calender, Joyce, Anya, Wesley, even Fred (technically).

-------------------------------------------------

Pimping my fanfic:
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Thursday, May 18, 2006 6:35 AM

RUGBUG

Quote:
Originally posted by chronicthehedgehog:
Also Jenny Calender, Joyce, Anya, Wesley, even Fred (technically).

Oops, I missed Anya and Wesley,

but both were in final episodes and there was really no hope of either show coming back, nor did I want them to. (Well, I would've enjoyed more Illyria filled Angel episodes....)

Jenny Calendar and Joyce were periphery characters like Tara, IMO. Their deaths were all heart-rending, but not in the they-just-ruined-the-show-I-can-no-longer-watch-because-(fill in the name of a main character)-is-dead type of way.

Fred, gone yes, but still available, if the story called for it.

I suppose Serenity was the final episode of Firefly, so I should've expected death. But with such a short run, I still had hope it could come back. Now, even if it did, it just wouldn't feel right...unless it went forward with River doing the flying. I could handle that....

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:03 AM

MER

Ok, I was shocked because after watching the season 1, everybody made it out ok. I sincerely thought it was going to be a "safe show" under Joss's belt. Yes everybody will come close to death, but they won't die at all...or at least the couples won't be doomed to doomness.

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:21 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Well, if you're going on the premise that only "peripheral" characters died in Buffy (Tara, Anya, Jenny Calendar, etc.), don't forget the fact that Buffy herself died - twice! One of those times (S5 finale), we really didn't know if she'd be back or not. From what I've heard, Joss had planned that to be the end of the show, but had to find a way to bring her back so the show could have two more seasons on UPN. I might be misinformed, but that was how it was explained to me. So the show MIGHT have ended with that long last shot of Buffy's tombstone ("She saved the world. A lot."), and that would've been the end.

And Angel - hardly a peripheral character - was himself killed by Buffy. Sure, he came back, but it wasn't like we could count on that happening when he died.

Was I shocked at Wash and Book's deaths? Yup. I can't say I was exactly *surprised*... but I was still shocked. Such is Joss's genius; he can shock us even when we think we know what's next. This was a crew that we just knew would always find a way to stay alive and together. We know that everybody dies, but that doesn't really make it easier when it happens, especially when it's so sudden, like it was with Wash.

Mike

A baby seal walks into a club...

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:58 AM

REGINAROADIE

Just reading this thread makes me think of different things all relating to the "killing off a character" tendency in tv and pop culture in general. I know that Joss likes to kill off characters to shake the show up, but after sitting through 11 seasons worth of BUFFY/ANGEL (Havn't seen season 5 yet), I'm starting to think the "Whedonization" of characters seems arbitrary. Plus, Buffy herself coming back from the dead twice was really stretching it in my books. I imagine if FIREFLY had lasted 5 or 7 years, that it would have been a revolving door of people coming onto the crew and leaving. Maybe by season 7, only Mal or River would still be alive and everyone else would be killed off in one way or another. In that aspect, if SERENITY is the last we'll see of our BDH's, then I'm glad to see Simon and Kaylee together forever instead of one of them dying. If one goes, then both go, IMHO.

To me, two shows that do the "killing off character" thing perfectly is 24 and SIX FEET UNDER. On 24, they know the exact time that any specific character should go so that when it happens, it genuinely gets people sitting up in their seats, screaming at the tv. Like Teri in season 1. Her death was by far one of the best "tv deaths" in tv, because it highlighted the tragedy of the series. Here is a guy who can save the world over and over again, but he can't save the people who are closest to him. And David Palmer's assassination in the first five minutes of Day 5 was a massive jolt to the system that gets the viewers attention and doesn't let go.

SIX FEET UNDER was another show that did death well. I mean, c'mon, it's a show about a family that runs a funeral home, for chrissakes. Each episode started with a death. Some hysterical, some sad, some bizarre, some plain. And it takes true balls to kill off your main character three episodes before the series finale AND KEEP HIM DEAD and not pussy out like Joss did with Buffy. To see these people going through true agony as they grappled with his death pushed the last few eps into the realm of art.

So I think "killing off characters" is like anything else. If in the wrong hands becomes a hoary cliche, but done properly can be perfect.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"There's only one "Return" ok, and it ain't "of the King", it's "of the Jedi."

"Maybe we should start calling your friend 'Padme' because he loves 'Mannequin Skywalker' so much, Right? (imitating robot) Danger...danger...my name is Anakin...my shitty acting is ruining saga."

Excerpt of internet teaser for CLERKS 2.

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:12 PM

RUGBUG

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Well, if you're going on the premise that only "peripheral" characters died in Buffy (Tara, Anya, Jenny Calendar, etc.), don't forget the fact that Buffy herself died - twice! One of those times (S5 finale), we really didn't know if she'd be back or not. From what I've heard, Joss had planned that to be the end of the show, but had to find a way to bring her back so the show could have two more seasons on UPN. I might be misinformed, but that was how it was explained to me. So the show MIGHT have ended with that long last shot of Buffy's tombstone ("She saved the world. A lot."), and that would've been the end.

And Angel - hardly a peripheral character - was himself killed by Buffy. Sure, he came back, but it wasn't like we could count on that happening when he died.

For me, the main characters are:

Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Buffy, Willow, Giles, Xander, (I don't count Anya...she was another "love interest" and comic relief. She took Cordy's place)

Angel: Angel, Cordy, Doyle, Wesley, Fred, Gunn

If a character wasn't in just about every single episode they are peripheral to me. Even Angel was mostly peripheral on Buffy. He was a "love interest" the way Oz was. He'd show up when needed but didn't need to be in every ep. He was the villian in Season 2 and got more air time, but the show could continue without him and not suffer too much. Take out one of the characters I listed above and the show would collapse.

As for Buffy dying? I NEVER thought she was really dead. The show is called BtVS afterall. Without the "B" there was no show. (You're supposition about the cancellation is what I understand happened as well. But even so, once we knew it was coming back, we knew it would come back with Buffy).

The deaths in Serenity were harder to take because each character was part of the main cast. They were all in every ep. Even when Gina Torres got married she had to be in the ep that was filming at the time...albeit smaller so she could be away.

But, that's just how I see things. You are free to think I am full of crap.

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:35 PM

EMMARIGBY

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Even when Gina Torres got married she had to be in the ep that was filming at the time...albeit smaller so she could be away.

Sorry to go off topic for a moment, but this is some trivia that I haven't heard! Which episode was it she got married during? I have to know!

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:56 PM

XEYRA

Quote:
Originally posted by EmmaRigby:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Even when Gina Torres got married she had to be in the ep that was filming at the time...albeit smaller so she could be away.

Sorry to go off topic for a moment, but this is some trivia that I haven't heard! Which episode was it she got married during? I have to know!

Must have been during the filming of "Out of Gas", because I read or heard somewhere she wanted to be the one knocked out by the explosion during that episode so she didn't have as much screentime. But someone feel free to correct me.

*******************************
Wash: This landing is gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: [deadpan] Oh God, oh God, we're all going to die?

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:45 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA

Quote:
Originally posted by Xeyra:
Quote:
Originally posted by EmmaRigby:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Even when Gina Torres got married she had to be in the ep that was filming at the time...albeit smaller so she could be away.

Sorry to go off topic for a moment, but this is some trivia that I haven't heard! Which episode was it she got married during? I have to know!

Must have been during the filming of "Out of Gas", because I read or heard somewhere she wanted to be the one knocked out by the explosion during that episode so she didn't have as much screentime. But someone feel free to correct me.

*******************************
Wash: This landing is gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: [deadpan] Oh God, oh God, we're all going to die?

`````````````````````````````````````````````````
Spot on Xeyra. She was on her honeymoon with Morpheus and was only in a few scenes. Watch it with commentary and you'll find out.

As for why I was shocked with BOTH deaths, I didn't know Joss's tendency to kill off characters (hell until I came online to find out why the show was cancelled I learned who Joss Whedon was and was behind BTVS and Angel. Both shows I have never gotten into, though I'm warming up to Angel when it's on, but I refuse to watch Buffy, I just can't stand SMG. Something about her bugs me. Her and the Tara character, well actually the whole cast. Annoys me no end.) So when it came to Joss programs I was a newbie and neive about how he operated. Until Firefly I only had fare like Star Trek and Star Wars, people don't die on those shows, even when they do they don't. I didn't know there was someone who really did make shows with consequences, so I was NOT expecting it, and it's still hard to take, which is why I've only watched the DVD 3 times. I understand why Joss did it (and Alan was behind it too) but I'll always have a resentment for that. I mean if he had to kill off somebody couldn't he have killed off Simon? Come on, it wouldn't have been as bad. Sorry all you Simon fans, he annoys me like SMG.

So that's why it was and still is a shock to me. I loved these characters like I hadn't any since the original SW, the minute Luke was backlit with those two sunsets I was in love. Same when we first meet Han, and who didn't instantly like Vader (the mean one, not the whiney one)

Maybe in the sequel, if he HAS to kill off somebody he can nix the doc, give Kaylee room to find someone better (gonna get burned for that but oh well) And it'd be a perfect opportunity to have River go crazy again. Mal could be the one to bring her back and replace Simon as a protector and maybe Mal will find a little more of his faith. Went on too long, I'm done now.

If I'm a bitch, then life just got interesting

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:56 PM

KWICKO

Rugbug: I *would* feel free to think you were full of crap, but when you put things the way you put them, it all makes sense. I never really considered Angel a peripheral character in Buffy (at least not in the first three seasons), but what you say does indeed make sense.

And while I wondered where and how they'd go on with S6 after Buffy's demise, I figured she'd be there somehow - so I guess I never really believed she was toast. Didn't stop me from crying at the end of S5 though.

MistressSahara: Give Buffy a chance. That's all I ask. I know where you're coming from - I myself couldn't stand SMG (I used to refer to her as "Rat-face"). I had absolutely no interest in watching her stupid vampire show, nor in watching the spinoff with "that stupid broody vampire guy from Buffy", as I used to call Angel. Give the shows a chance, though, and the Jossiness comes through. :) He's devious like that.

Mike

A baby seal walks into a club...

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:32 PM

SPACECOWGIRL

The Serenity deaths didn't shock me (well the one was so sudden) because I knew Joss' work well enough by then to expect it.
What shocked me was the the Buffy episode where Angelus kills

Select to view spoiler:

Jenny Calendar

. I know my jaw hit the floor on that scene.

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Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:32 PM

SPACECOWGIRL

The Serenity deaths didn't shock me (well the one was so sudden) because I knew Joss' work well enough by then to expect it.
What shocked me was the the Buffy episode where Angelus kills

Select to view spoiler:

Jenny Calendar

. I know my jaw hit the floor on that scene.

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Friday, May 19, 2006 5:30 AM

KWICKO

SpaceCowgirl: Ditto the Angelus thing. When that happened, I definitely flinched. It wasn't just because it was sudden or unexpected (which it was) - it was the way he did it, and the utter and complete disregard he showed her. For a vamp to just snap someone's neck and not even be interested in drinking their blood means (to me, anyway) that the vamp regards them as garbage, or less. And the things he did with her after that had me really furious. My wife and I both swore we could never like Angel/Angelus again after that. Of course, we were both wrong. :)

Mike

A baby seal walks into a club...

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Friday, May 19, 2006 6:11 AM

RUGBUG

Spacecowgirl: I gasp just about every time I see that. I was dumbstruck the first time. Absolutely brutal. And in one fell swoop you knew EXACTLY who Angelus was. Pure evil.

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