Angel season 5 review (I'm gonna spoil all over, and maybe piss some fans off) by chrisisall

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
First:
Grounded was correct; Angel's first season was better.

*smug*

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

I come away feeling that Angel satisfied the adolesent male in me, where Buffy satisfied the adult person in me, if that makes any sense.

Really? Personally I'd say it's the other way round.

For me, Not Fade Away is far and away the best TV show finale I've ever seen. It just felt so much more complete than Chosen that even the 'open-ended' conclusion made perfect dramatic, and thematic, sense.

Edit: Oh and perhaps your 'making it up as they went' feeling might stem from, I dunno, say skipping two seasons in the middle! ;)

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 5:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:

Edit: Oh and perhaps your 'making it up as they went' feeling might stem from, I dunno, say skipping two seasons in the middle! ;)

They caught me up in the flashbacks!
heh heh

What we all take from a story depends in large part on what we ourselves bring to it. I can totally see why you feel about it the way you do. In the end, I guess I can just empathize with Buffy more than Angel.
For instance: you hated when Buffy bopped Spike, but having been in similar positions (Hey- no jokes, okay) myself, I could really relate to the pain she was in, and the lengths she'd go to suppress it.

So there we are, mate.

Your takes on both Buffy and Angel have been among the most informative and interesting, thanks.

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 8:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:

For me, Not Fade Away is far and away the best TV show finale I've ever seen.

I really did like the way Joss injected his political philosophy in there, though, like that bit about when you get high enough, the ones below seeming like ants...

Would Angel season 6 have made comments about the presidents of countries having to make demonic deals to keep wars going for Senior Partner purposes, do you think?

RWED infected Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 9:02 AM

Hey Big 'C'

Interesting to read your thoughts on Season 5.

For me personally season five is the more disappointing of all the Angel seasons. For various reasons, I wont go into too much detail because I'll end up writing a thesis, but key sore points are:

Too many past guest stars making a farewell appearance.

The gang working out of Wolfram and Hart was inneffective. They really didn't 'use' the space and concept well enough. So many personel milling around doing what?!

Fred dies - tagged on pathos. Awful conclusion for her character - and the blue thing, as sexy as it was, I felt was too trying. Bugged me all to hell and Wesley's loss/sadness was a missed opportunity.

Spike - what can I say. Shoe-horned in and although used brilliantly for comic effect between he and Angel, I'm still not sure how and why he came back!

Finalé - as suspected throughout the season, this time they really hadn't an idea of where they were going, and as a consequence renders the season flawed.

That said there were some great individual episodes that rival the best of them.

I'd rate them as you did Chrisisall.

Well done btw, you've come a long way if you think about it, from those day's when you innocently typed in the title to your thread : Should I buy Buffy season 1 ?

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 10:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
you've come a long way if you think about it, from those day's when you innocently typed in the title to your thread : Should I buy Buffy season 1 ?

A lifetime ago, my friend.

Chrisisall, a road, not a destination

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 10:33 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
First:
Grounded was correct; Angel's first season was better.

well we will never agree on that one!
I really didn't love even one of the episodes in S1 while I found most of the S5 to be endlessly wonderful!

Quote:

And killing Fred was for effect. Angel talked about finding Fred's soul and just bringing it back.

well I think I'm the only one who didn't cry over Fred's death... I never really liked Fred,
but I LOVED Illyria and I was hoping we would end up with some kind of Illyria/Fred hybred.
I did cry over Wesley's death...
BUT I was hoping that someday Joss would have Wesley's Father raise him from the dead as an evil zombie to do his bidding (the ultimate dutiful son that Wesley had failed to be in life)
but you see? I love that the dead can return in Joss' Buffy/Angelverse

Quote:
Now, many here say that Angel's finale was just fine.
Meh.

Angel seemed to be making it up as it went.
There were some great and effective moments in the final two eps, but I still feel cheated. I wanted to see it (evil) all grind to a halt for just that one moment like Angel talked about. I blame the WB.

personally I thought that the Ats series finale was perfect;
because to me the whole point is that there is no rest for the wicked.
Angel is going to have to keep fighting.
even if he occassionally wins one, he knows that the next fight is just around the corner (Buffy knows the same thing...but she is going to get to go to Heaven and enjoy the benefits of a hero's journey, but Angel knows no such thing).
I think Joss did the perfect thing: contrasting the two series/the two heros with the two completely different, polar opposite, endings.

I get that it didn't work for you, or for a lot of people, but it was perfect to me.

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 10:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:

I get that it didn't work for you, or for a lot of people, but it was perfect to me.

Keep in mind that I literally finished the season last night, and my view of it is fresh and un-soaked in, I may change my mind and embrace it as perfect without notice.
As it was, it worked for me, just not nearly a well as Buffy's. But there's a lot to your noting the contrast between B and A, Angel really would be hard pressed to have an actual happy end, I guess.

And season one is better (I feel) because it's consistant. There are only a few eps that are season 5 quality, but as a whole, it tells the tale better (again IMHO). Season 5 has some AMAZING eps, but it's all over the place as a whole.

Now I'm tired...
How about: I just like Buffy more, but Angel is excellent, too?

No Jaws 3D tonite Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 11:27 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
How about: I just like Buffy more, but Angel is excellent, too?

well I cannot argue with THAT!
or with loving Firefly the bestest of all three...

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 11:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Too many past guest stars making a farewell appearance.

It's the final season - everyone is making a farewell appearance!

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

The gang working out of Wolfram and Hart was inneffective. They really didn't 'use' the space and concept well enough. So many personel milling around doing what?!

I can agree with that.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Fred dies - tagged on pathos. Awful conclusion for her character - and the blue thing, as sexy as it was, I felt was too trying. Bugged me all to hell and Wesley's loss/sadness was a missed opportunity.

I dunno on this one. I wasn't the Illyria fan that everyone else was, but I think it was an interesting move to make. Not every character death can be heroic and meaningful - the final scene of Shells really gets me every time *sniff*

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

Spike - what can I say. Shoe-horned in and although used brilliantly for comic effect between he and Angel, I'm still not sure how and why he came back!

Um possibly to address the Shanshu prophecy issues his soul brings up? I think Spike should have crossed over to Angel way earlier.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

Finalé - as suspected throughout the season, this time they really hadn't an idea of where they were going, and as a consequence renders the season flawed.

Actually, they did know where they were going. (I forget where I saw it mentioned, but there are Circle of the Black Thorn logos visible even in the earliest eps.) And apparently, nothing was changed for the finale post cancellation.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

I'd rate them as you did Chrisisall.

Speaking of which...top 5 for the season?

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:17 PM

Originally posted by Grounded:

Quote:
It's the final season - everyone is making a farewell appearance!

:D Granted. But what I was refering to was Lindsey coming back... Just what was the point? We'd been over this: Angel whoops his arse! Lindsey is pissed! Angel whoops Lindsey's Arse!! Again and again and again... ad infinitum, ad nauseum (for me at least)

Quote:
I dunno on this one. I wasn't the Illyria fan that everyone else was, but I think it was an interesting move to make. Not every character death can be heroic and meaningful - the final scene of Shells really gets me every time *sniff*

Nor me - but I can honetsly say I saw this coming a mile off. Maybe by now I was too familiar with Joss' reluctance/inability to contrive a working relationship, and frankly the premise of another relationship falling apart had kinda done it's thing with me. Especially as after the Fred/Gunn relationship falling apart neither character developed as a consequence.

Quote:
Um possibly to address the Shanshu prophecy issues his soul brings up? I think Spike should have crossed over to Angel way earlier.

Possibly... Yes you're right, possibly... But I think this was the kind of thing that I had trouble with. And NO thank god they didn't bring Spike in sooner.

Quote:
Actually, they did know where they were going. (I forget where I saw it mentioned, but there are Circle of the Black Thorn logos visible even in the earliest eps.) And apparently, nothing was changed for the finale post cancellation.

Yeah I read this too somewhere... Maybe it was here I'm not sure. I had trouble with the finale. It's mentioned above that the premise of 'No rest for the wicked' was the arc for this show - but I frankly think that not the case, otherwise it makes every effort Angle went through as meaningless and therefore why show any of his escapades.

No I think there must be a conclusion there somewhere. After all you've taken your audience for a journey for five seasons in which you drop little teasers of prophecies, vampires becoming human, end of the world etc etc. To turn those notions against the ethos of the show because you can is redundant to the shows mantra.

I know I'm a grumpus! It's just that I found Angel to have some wonderfully profound notions through-out and I guess I was looking for a resolution that said something more. To say: "Evil comes we fight it, evil comes we continue to fight it..."
.... Well they pretty much established that in season 1 and they certainly said it in Buffy.

But rest assured I'm not trying to convince you otherwise to your opinions and frankly I'm grateful for such contrasts because when I re-watch Angel I'll do so with others' ideas in mind.

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:

Speaking of which...top 5 for the season?

Destiny
Damage
You're Welcome
Power Play
Not Fade Away

And Smile Time gets honourable mention for extreme muppet-ness.

5 by 5 Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I found Angel to have some wonderfully profound notions through-out and I guess I was looking for a resolution that said something more. To say: "Evil comes we fight it, evil comes we continue to fight it..."

I guess that's about how I felt- amazing individual episodes that don't add up to a conclusion of any kind. Hell, Dark Angel's finale was all manner of closure-challenged, yet it had an enduring, final message in it that together, not individually, we find strength and hope, and that it is enough. Angel just seemed to say: Round 28 comming up! At least, that's mainly what I saw. Maybe I'll see more with subsequent viewings (and boy is this season re-watchable on many levels).
It just really needed one last season...

Demon Nation Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 1:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
It's just that I found Angel to have some wonderfully profound notions through-out and I guess I was looking for a resolution that said something more. To say: "Evil comes we fight it, evil comes we continue to fight it..."
.... Well they pretty much established that in season 1 and they certainly said it in Buffy.

Hmm. If you look at how they wrapped up S1, it was by giving Angel a goal, a potential reward. S5 deals with him coming to terms with the fact that perhaps this reward is not destined for him, and concludes with him realising that ultimately it's not important to him - he signs the prophecy away. I think that bookends things fairly nicely.

Since I haven't watched it for a while, and am having trouble coming up with a rebuttal for that "evil comes we fight it" summation, all I can do is what I normally do: criticise Buffy ;) If NFA left you wanting, what exactly in Chosen satisfied you? Chosen didn't have any new, profound message to close out the series. Or did I miss it?...

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
amazing individual episodes that don't add up to a conclusion of any kind.

I think the conclusion is that there can be no conclusion. Like TS says, maybe it's not a new statement, but I don't think it rings any less true here.

Top 5:

Destiny
A Hole In The World
Underneath
Smile Time
Not Fade Away

My DVDs should arrive soon, and then the rewatching shall commence :)

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 3:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
what exactly in Chosen satisfied you? Chosen didn't have any new, profound message to close out the series. Or did I miss it?...

Simply put: that all our efforts are not in vain. You don't know when it will come, but that realization is possible, just don't give up.

And Buffy's smile. She deserved a smile like that.

And a cookie Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 4:45 PM

FLORALBUNNY

So, Chrisetc., do I get Buffy Season 1?

bun
~the usual~

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 5:18 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

For me, the finale left me with these impressions:

It's Angel's way of telling The Powers That Be (TPTB) that they can hurt him, they can even kill him, but what they can't do is DEFEAT HIM. He changed the game, turned things around on them. He knows that he can't destroy them, but just by doing what he's doing, he can throw a serious monkey wrench into their well-laid plans. He's not going to play their games, he's not going to kow-tow to them; he's going to fight, and if it comes to that, he's going to die fighting.

Will he have any real effect on TPTB or their plans? Well, the simple fact that he was able to shake them up and force them to unleash every evil thing in the world upon him says that he can indeed have an impact on them, and has - while they can have no such impact on him. What can they do? Kill him? Who cares? He's already given away every single thing he might care to live for. It's Angel's way of saying that he might go down, but it won't be easy, and he'll go down fighting. As such, he wins. He becomes the one who wouldn't be controlled, and who wouldn't simply follow plans and play his part. Evil might always exist as long as there are men on Earth, but as long as Angel is alive, he'll fight that evil. He won't walk away, he won't just sit idly by and do nothing, and he won't give in; if TPTB are there, he'll be there, spoiling for a fight.

Plus, it was a chance for Angel to put on just a bit of Spikiness. To become a bit of his old, baudy Liam-self, just spoiling for a good fight, with nothing in it for him but the fight itself. And I don't know about you, but I always wanted to slay a dragon... :)

Mike

"Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than when they are convinced beyond doubt that they are right."
- Laurens van der Post

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Wednesday, May 31, 2006 5:38 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Last:
I come away feeling that Angel satisfied the adolesent male in me, where Buffy satisfied the adult person in me, if that makes any sense.

Wow, therein lies the point. I have yet to see ALL the Buffy 'verse, from start to finish, but to date, I have a 180 degree view on Buffy/ Angel than you. I reserve the right to change my view later, but as of now, I rank Buffy last, then Angel and finally Firefly in order of goodness.

Buffy - ***
Angel - ****
Firefly - *****

We shall see.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 12:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
what exactly in Chosen satisfied you? Chosen didn't have any new, profound message to close out the series. Or did I miss it?...

Simply put: that all our efforts are not in vain. You don't know when it will come, but that realization is possible, just don't give up.

Hardly profound though is it? I mean that's practically the moral of every single hero/heroine movie/TV-show ever.

Anyway, I think the point with Angel's finale is 'don't give up' too. The difference being that in Angel's case there may never be an end to the fight, but that doesn't make the fight any less worthy. It comes back to the "if nothing we do matters, all that matters is what we do" line from Epiphany. Whether or not there's a reward or an ending, it's the willingness to fight on that's meaningful.

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 1:38 AM

Grounded Wrote:

Quote:
Hardly profound though is it? I mean that's practically the moral of every single hero/heroine movie/TV-show ever.

Grounded it was I who was refering to the profound ideas. It wasn't in reference to Buffy though, although I think Buffy had it's moments.

Quote:
Anyway, I think the point with Angel's finale is 'don't give up' too. The difference being that in Angel's case there may never be an end to the fight, but that doesn't make the fight any less worthy. It comes back to the "if nothing we do matters, all that matters is what we do" line from Epiphany. Whether or not there's a reward or an ending, it's the willingness to fight on that's meaningful.

You know I don't have any conflict with any of your points actually Grounded I think you're right, but perhaps, I lead my self up the garden path with it all, and expected something more resolute. I agree that, that is maybe the underlying message of the finalé, but personally for me, on this occasion it didn't cut it. Primarily because this idea had already been established, since as you pointed out, Epiphany.

With that in mind I just wonder at the purpose of the series thereafter...

Actually there's something else I'd like to ask you and others' in regard to the very end. I felt that Angel and co in that alley had all given up. Is that just me? I thought that final charge merely a gesture of defiance, but that there was a collective thought of: "We're going to die."

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 2:25 AM

EST120

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Actually there's something else I'd like to ask you and others' in regard to the very end. I felt that Angel and co in that alley had all given up. Is that just me? I thought that final charge merely a gesture of defiance, but that there was a collective thought of: "We're going to die."

I agree with Grounded, I feel the finale was more of a statement about how the fight will always be ongoing and that it will never stop. With or without the crew, the fight will still be there.

I can see why it would feel like Angel and the crew are giving up but I think it was more of a realization by Angel that there is no way to be utterly victorious over evil. He says as much earlier, that "the senior partners will always exist in one form or another". Thus, mankind is always going to struggle with evil, but Angel feels that he and his crew can make a difference by making the forces of evil like the senior partners stand up and take notice that good can hurt them, that good can go toe to toe with evil. The realization by the crew that they will probably die is not, in my opinion, a sign of giving up, it is a statement of devotion to their cause. I think if they had given up, they would have tried would not have taken on the Black Thorn, rather, they might have tried to leave Wolfram and Hart.

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 3:59 AM

Originally posted by est120:

Quote:
I agree with Grounded, I feel the finale was more of a statement about how the fight will always be ongoing and that it will never stop. With or without the crew, the fight will still be there.

I can see why it would feel like Angel and the crew are giving up but I think it was more of a realization by Angel that there is no way to be utterly victorious over evil. He says as much earlier, that "the senior partners will always exist in one form or another". Thus, mankind is always going to struggle with evil, but Angel feels that he and his crew can make a difference by making the forces of evil like the senior partners stand up and take notice that good can hurt them, that good can go toe to toe with evil. The realization by the crew that they will probably die is not, in my opinion, a sign of giving up, it is a statement of devotion to their cause. I think if they had given up, they would have tried would not have taken on the Black Thorn, rather, they might have tried to leave Wolfram and Hart.

When I first saw it I felt it was a kind of a 'Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid' moment where they go out in front of the Bolivian army guns blazzin' and it is in effect left up to us to decide the outcome. If we wanted them to survive they did, if not they didn't.. Takes your pick so to speak.

But on reflection I needed more (personally) and if, it is rounded up as you say above, then the question begs as to wether or not they shouldn't all have just left the world to Jasmine.

?

Let me just make one more thing clear because it looks like I'm really coming down on Angel, I'm not really. I loved the show! Maybe just for these kinds of dilemnas :D but in an overall seasonal review this one comes last..... But I guess one has to right.

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 5:14 AM

RUGBUG

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
What exactly in Chosen satisfied you? Chosen didn't have any new, profound message to close out the series. Or did I miss it?...

)

For me, Chosen was satisfying because the main conflict for Buffy was tied up. There was closure. For seven years Buffy struggled with being "the one girl in all the world." She was isolated with no real chance for a life or for real happiness. Chosen gave her that. And that is why I love it.

Select to view spoiler:

On a sidenote, I think the whole "first evil", the pit of ubervamps, and Sunnydale sinking into a hole was over the top.

Not Fade Away didn't end any of Angel's struggles. He went out just as he came in, fighting evil with no real hope of ever making a lasting dent in it. That's why I was disappointed. There wasn't a stitch of resolution.

NFA was probably the "real world" answer. We will always struggle. Our failures are our's for life. They don't just go away because we've done enough good. But it was a harsh conclusion for a TV series.

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 5:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
For me, Chosen was satisfying because the main conflict for Buffy was tied up. There was closure. For seven years Buffy struggled with being "the one girl in all the world." She was isolated with no real chance for a life or for real happiness. Chosen gave her that. And that is why I love it.

Maybe, but it did so by taking major liberties with series canon, overdosing on deus ex machina, and by having Buffy making a seriously dubious ethical choice to force slayerhood on other girls.

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Not Fade Away didn't end any of Angel's struggles. He went out just as he came in, fighting evil with no real hope of ever making a lasting dent in it. That's why I was disappointed. There wasn't a stitch of resolution.

NFA was probably the "real world" answer. We will always struggle. Our failures are our's for life. They don't just go away because we've done enough good. But it was a harsh conclusion for a TV series.

But would anyone here have really been satisfied if they'd ended Angel's struggles? The constant struggle is practically the defining attribute of his character. If they'd gone the other way and had him become human in the final episode I think that would have been a total copout.

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 6:37 AM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

I thought Not Fade Away was the single greatest of anything finale of anything ever. I spent about 10 minutes afterwards just sitting there, taking in everything that had just happened.

I'm surprised no-one's mentioned this but I think Angel is summed up best by his statement in season 2 that "if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do" and the season finale was the perfect call back to that. The fight will never end, if we stop fighting someone else will take our place but we're still going to fight for no other reason than because we can.

Personally I thought it was much, much better than the confused ending to season 7 Buffy, but I thought it was a very confused season so it wasn't unexpected.

-------------------------------------------------
Pimping my fanfic:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=8267

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 7:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FloralBunny:
So, Chrisetc., do I get Buffy Season 1?

If you're smart (and I know that you are), you'll at least rent it. There's at least 3 must-see eps for hard-core Buffy fans.

Chrisetc. onabun

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 7:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And I don't know about you, but I always wanted to slay a dragon... :)

Kwicko, your take on NFA is exactly why many see it as a superior work of art; I personally view the Dark Angel finale the same way, and there are many that don't agree with me there. Like I said somewhere else, it all depends what you bring to the material.

Side note: I loved when Spike read that poem at the club!!!

Chrisisall

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 7:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

When I first saw it I felt it was a kind of a 'Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid' moment where they go out in front of the Bolivian army guns blazzin' and it is in effect left up to us to decide the outcome. If we wanted them to survive they did, if not they didn't.. Takes your pick so to speak.

Just watched it again last night, and that's exactly what I was left with.

Not a bad way to end it, considering the cancelation, but I too wanted the resolution....

Resolute Chrisisall

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 7:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:

But would anyone here have really been satisfied if they'd ended Angel's struggles?

*raises his hand*

Chrisisall

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 7:45 AM

RUGBUG

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
For me, Chosen was satisfying because the main conflict for Buffy was tied up. There was closure. For seven years Buffy struggled with being "the one girl in all the world." She was isolated with no real chance for a life or for real happiness. Chosen gave her that. And that is why I love it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Maybe, but it did so by taking major liberties with series canon, overdosing on deus ex machina, and by having Buffy making a seriously dubious ethical choice to force slayerhood on other girls.

The series was over, there wasn't much canon to uphold anymore. Canon has been messed with before...Bringing Buffy back messed with canon. Before that, you could bring someone back, but they were zombies or such. It was then switched to you could bring 'em back if the death was mystical in nature so Willow couldn't bring Tara back. Blah, blah, blah. Changing canon isn't necessarily the worst thing that can happen.

I actually had more problem with all the potentials sitting out there...some knowing they were potentials, some not. That messed with canon quite a bit. The potentials have better reflexes, are quicker and stronger (although not to the level of a slayer) than normal folks? Where'd that come from?

I did wonder of the ramifications of turning all those potentials into Slayers. The whole character of Faith and the Angel episode 'Damage' tells you why that's just a bad idea.

But the series was ending, and I needed Buffy to have a future that was different from what I'd seen for seven years.

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Not Fade Away didn't end any of Angel's struggles. He went out just as he came in, fighting evil with no real hope of ever making a lasting dent in it. That's why I was disappointed. There wasn't a stitch of resolution.

NFA was probably the "real world" answer. We will always struggle. Our failures are our's for life. They don't just go away because we've done enough good. But it was a harsh conclusion for a TV series.

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
But would anyone here have really been satisfied if they'd ended Angel's struggles? The constant struggle is practically the defining attribute of his character. If they'd gone the other way and had him become human in the final episode I think that would have been a total copout.

Eh, I don't think he needed to become human, but dead? or fighting a hopeless battle? No thanks. Couldn't they just take away the curse so he could experience true happiness? That's all I would've needed.

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 9:04 AM

Quote:
Eh, I don't think he needed to become human, but dead? or fighting a hopeless battle? No thanks. Couldn't they just take away the curse so he could experience true happiness? That's all I would've needed.

What is it with everyone and happy endings? ;)

I think it's fair to say Angel has gone through plenty of change in 5 seasons. Having close friends has changed him. Making big mistakes has changed him. Having a son has changed him. Losing people he's cared about has changed him. At the end of S5, the weight of all these changes is enough to make him understand that his place is to fight so that others don't have to. He can accept it, and be at peace with it. He doesn't need another moment of true happiness - he's had all that he needs in that respect.

Back to what TS said, there were a couple of things I'd change about the ending. I think I'd make it clear that Angel and co. don't actually know just how hard W&H is going to come back at them, because as TS says there is a certain suicidal tone to the last talk in the alley. Also I think the horde was a little overdone. I mean Angel, Spike, Illyria may all be hard as nails, but we've seen Angel get knocked on his ass by one vampire before ;) Then again, maybe Hamilton's blood packs a real punch and they'll all be home before dinner time...

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 9:24 AM

RUGBUG

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
What is it with everyone and happy endings? ;)

Eh, I know.

I'm pretty hopeless in that case. I don't always need a happy ending. Heck, I was a devout X-Files watcher. They defined non-closure. But for the series finale? I need a bit of closure. There was none for me. My choices are to either think Angel and Co. are still fighting the good fight or they all died. From how things were going, I chose they all died. That's disappointing to me.

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
I think it's fair to say Angel has gone through plenty of change in 5 seasons. Having close friends has changed him. Making big mistakes has changed him. Having a son has changed him. Losing people he's cared about has changed him. At the end of S5, the weight of all these changes is enough to make him understand that his place is to fight so that others don't have to. He can accept it, and be at peace with it. He doesn't need another moment of true happiness - he's had all that he needs in that respect.

I mostly agree with you. But because I think they all died, there's no more fight. There's nothing.

I loved when Angel sacrificed the Shanshu prophecy. That was the mark of a true hero. I was seriously upset about that plot twist. It hurt to see him have to give up what amounted to hope, but it was the right thing to do. But to just die fighting another battle. Blech. All I felt was empty. :shrugs:

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 10:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:

I loved when Angel sacrificed the Shanshu prophecy. That was the mark of a true hero. I was seriously upset about that plot twist. It hurt to see him have to give up what amounted to hope, but it was the right thing to do. But to just die fighting another battle. Blech. All I felt was empty. :shrugs:

I'll add my very considered and erudite 'Uh-huh' here.

Chrisisall of few words

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 3:30 PM

FLORALBUNNY

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bunafraidofchristhepusher
~6/23~Serenity/Firefly Summer~9/30~
----- why's the rum gone? 7706 -----

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Friday, June 2, 2006 8:33 AM