Tonight's Angel was Beautiful by Knibblet

Quote:
Originally posted by Winterfell:
...Angel and spike deserve any misery they get.

Whaaah...how do you figure? Because their bodies were used to commit crimes? That doesn't seem very fair...
-Steve

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, February 6, 2004 2:52 AM

Quote:
Someone said this ep lacked comedy, but I don’t know; I laughed out loud several times.

Me, too. In fact, it was so funny that my husband asked, "Did you catch who the writer was? Is this an Espenson?" It did have that "laugh your butt off till the tragic ending..." feel of an Espenson episode. Good job, David Fury!

The connections to the past they made were wonderful. This was a great fan episode without resorting to a stupid clip show. They even showed a clip and it made sense that they did! Brilliant.

I'm a little disappointed that Lindsey really did turn out to be evil. Ah well. My old theory about him trying to bring down W & H REALLY fell apart last night. However, a new and extremely chilling thought hit me just before I climbed into bed last night. I include spoiler space only because it gives away what happens to Lindsey at the end of the ep. This is pure speculation:

Select to view spoiler:

Lindsey isn't being eaten by the Senior Parnters. They're MAKING him a Senior Partner.

Kinda chills the blood, eh?

--Kala

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, February 6, 2004 6:32 AM

KNIBBLET

Kinda chills the blood, eh?
--Kala

Chilly Willy the Freakin Penguin, chilly.
Gads, woman, you're evil for thinking it :)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, February 6, 2004 8:30 AM

"Whaaah...how do you figure? Because their bodies were used to commit crimes? That doesn't seem very fair...
-Steve"

Are you saying that Angel's and Spike's SOULS don't deserve it because they weren't present for the majority of the killing? (they have both done some pretty bad stuff even after they got thier souls back)

One could also argue that mearly surrenduring to dru and darla in the first place and becoming vampires is enough of a crime...

Wes never did

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, February 6, 2004 8:35 AM

Heh heh. Yeah, I tend to be a bit on the evil side. Comes from being married to an author.

But you gotta admit, what Lindsey did sure would impress the sh** out of them, wouldn't it?

--Kala

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, February 6, 2004 11:50 AM

LITWOLF689

Quote:
Originally posted by cecil:
Your all lucky. I didnt even get to see it. A stupid college basketball game was on. I wanted to see Cordy again. Its not fair!!!!

MAL
"Nice shot."
JAYNE
(slurred)
"I was aiming for his head"

The same thing happened to me but I have found out when it will be on again.

The 'Your Welcome' 100th episode is coming on on Saturday, February 7th, at 5:00 pm.

This is when it will be where I live anyway and thats in Maryland. You might, if you can, bring up a guide on your tv and check the time but that's what time it is for me.

Enjoy the episode!!!
^-^

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, February 6, 2004 2:37 PM

KURUKAMI

Quote:
But you gotta admit, what Lindsey did sure would impress the sh** out of them, wouldn't it?

I find myself wondering just what exactly Lindsey was up to. It doesn't really make sense that he'd go to all the trouble to set up Spike, break into Wolfram and Hart and all that, just to try to settle a vendetta with Angel... particularly since they parted on semi-decent terms.

Eve's assertion that there was some beastie down in that room that was (forgive my tired memory, I may be mistaken) something that was there to kill Angel if necessary similarly strikes me as off. If Lindsey wanted to kill Angel, it seems likely that he'd be able to try to do so without all the hullabaloo of the big room downstairs.

Also... was I the only one who noticed that said room looked a lot like the same big summoning room that Darla was brought back to the human world in, back at the end of Season 1? That little tidbit, combined with the weird inscribed stones on that big central plateau, makes me suspect that Lindsey had some entirely different motive... and that his getting dragged into that portal in the sky might've been just what he was hoping for. Sure, the tats that concealed him from the attentions of the Senior Partners seemed to have evaporated... but presumably he was still tremendously strong and tough, with an array of sorcerer's tricks to call upon.

I think we haven't seen the last of Lindsey this season. He had a bit too much setup time to just go *poof!* like that, particularly since it's still the middle of season 5.

History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, February 6, 2004 4:00 PM

Yeah, I think it was the same set they used to summon Darla.

I do think there's going to be more with Lindsey, but it could just be the obsessive longing of a Christian Kane fan. The revenge plotline was way too linear for this team, though they have on occassion done a big build up to nothing.

Yes, they did leave on semi-decent terms and Lindsey seemed to be headed down a redemptive path. I was hoping they'd stick with their theme of grayness having to fight a powerful Lindsey, who actually *was* on the side of good and the Powers That Be in order to maintain what they'd gained by taking over W & H. That doesn't seem to be playing out now.

However, Lindsey did once before try to set himself on the redemptive path and failed miserably. Perhaps he's failed again only to gain what he's always wanted most: More Power.

The more I think on this, the more I think he's just got the promotion of a lifetime...or an eternity.

--Kala

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, February 6, 2004 8:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Winterfell:
"Whaaah...how do you figure? Because their bodies were used to commit crimes? That doesn't seem very fair...
-Steve"

Are you saying that Angel's and Spike's SOULS don't deserve it because they weren't present for the majority of the killing? (they have both done some pretty bad stuff even after they got thier souls back)

One could also argue that mearly surrenduring to dru and darla in the first place and becoming vampires is enough of a crime...

Wes never did

It's mentioned on the show that when you become a vampire, that just means that you leave your body, and a demonic force takes it over. So, when you return to you body, you can't be held accountably in any way for what happened while you were out.

I don't know, Spike's been pretty much heroic since the return of his soul. As for Angel, he lost his soul a couple more times; and there was that time after Darla came back. But nothing he's ever done (nothing Angel's ever done, that is; not Angelus) qualifies as 'evil'.
-Steve

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, February 6, 2004 8:57 PM

Agh! Double post!

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 7, 2004 7:02 AM

DRAKON

When Harmony was smackin Eve, and Eve gave in soo quickly, did anyone else here a little voice in the back of their heads "I was gonna get me an ear, too."

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 7, 2004 7:14 AM

DRAKON

Not so sure it did. We know that he wanted W&H back, from Angel. But does that mean he was evil? Or simply anti-Angel?

Wife has a theory that we are gonna see more of Eve. And that she will turn out to be "Daddy's Little Girl", the favorite child of a senior partner. Possibly even the kid that they swapped Conner for.

We'll see.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 7, 2004 7:40 AM

so... locking that room full of lawyers in with darla and dru to kill was just jim dandy with you?

besides... when you become a vampire you first have to be drained of most of your blood.. then conciously make the descision to drink from the vampire who drained you.. so in a way.. you are making the choice to become the vampire.. that is why you are losing your soul and allowing the demon to enter.. so again.. you deserve it.

plus.. after you get your soul back.. you're still half demon and not a peaceful one.. you have to conciously make the decision every day not to drink human blood and kill things.. you see angel when they fed him just a tiny bit of connor's blood? he was getting seriously evil fast.. the point is.. if you really wanted to do some good, some would argue that you should stake yourself to kill the demon within.. as darla did when connor was born.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 7, 2004 8:08 AM

GTHING

I too loved “You’re Welcome”. I especially enjoyed its nods to Season 1 episodes. So what if Season 1 is my least favorite of Angel’s seasons, it was a real nice gesture anyway. My only complaints about Season 1 are it was uneven and it lacked the imagination we would see in later episodes. I still rate “Soul Purpose” and “Destiny” a little higher for this season’s episodes, but “You’re Welcome” ranks up there as well.

“You’re Welcome” is about where our heroes started and where they have gone. I love the idea of making Angel discover on his own why he became involved in this ultra-weird thing with Wolfram and Hart. He really wanted to make a difference. This was a card life dealt him, and it is his destiny to make the most of it.

Oh yeah, Harmony duking it out with Eve! That was cool too!

Excerpt from My Genre Geek Resume:
~huge Odyssey 5 fan (despite its cancellation)
~dangerously obsessed with BtVS and Angel
~former Andromeda fan

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 7, 2004 11:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Drakon:
Not so sure it did. We know that he wanted W&H back, from Angel. But does that mean he was evil? Or simply anti-Angel?

Good point. I HOPE that there is more complexity to his character than hell-bent-on-revenge. I wanted to believe he wasn't evil anymore, but I'm just not so sure.

Quote:
Wife has a theory that we are gonna see more of Eve. And that she will turn out to be "Daddy's Little Girl", the favorite child of a senior partner. Possibly even the kid that they swapped Conner for.

Interesting theory, but this is one I SERIOUSLY hope is not true. The only other time I've ever found a character as annoying as Eve was when they had the Lila & Gavin dynamic going on. I really just cringed every time I saw Lila during that time, and not in a good way. I feel about Eve the same way. It's not an "Oh no! What's she going to do *now*?" kind of cringe, but a "Gods, I hope this scene is short so I can pay attention again." kind of cringe. I don't find her funny; I don't find her scary; I don't find her intriguing. I just want her off the screen as quickly as possible so I can go back to being entertained.

I am *praying* we have seen the last of Eve. I won't hold my breath because there are a butt load of loose ends about her, but the less screen time she has the better I'll feel.

--Kala

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 8, 2004 1:19 PM

KNIBBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by Winterfell:
so... locking that room full of lawyers in with darla and dru to kill was just jim dandy with you?

Hell yeah. Dandy fine, ducky, yippee skippy and praise worthy!!

They deserved anything they got. They were W&H lawyers celebrating all the evil that W&H was. They deserved NOTHING more.

Just because you're human, doesn't mean you don't deserve to die at the hands of the evil you seek to let loose on the rest of the world.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 8, 2004 2:24 PM

"Hell yeah. Dandy fine, ducky, yippee skippy and praise worthy!!

They deserved anything they got. They were W&H lawyers celebrating all the evil that W&H was. They deserved NOTHING more.

Just because you're human, doesn't mean you don't deserve to die at the hands of the evil you seek to let loose on the rest of the world."

it seemed that the rest of Angel Investigations wholeheartedly disagreed with (you and) Angel and called him on it.. I am going to have to go with my man Wes on this one and say, no.. it was wrong to do what he did.

you can't just murder all the worlds evil and wash yer hands and say.. ok done..

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 8, 2004 7:17 PM

Quote:
You can't just murder all the world's evil and wash yer hands and say.. ok done..

Uh...actually, I vote you can.
People are sentenced to die every day for crimes they commited, and I'm sure not one of them did anything as bad as the people in that room. Why was Wes upset with Angel? Because it wasn't a heroic thing to do, certainly. Perhaps it was even morally questionable, they waey some people consider the death penalty to be. But evil? Hell no.

So becoming a vampire was a bad choice for Angel; we all make bad choices. If Angel is evil, then I've never met anyone who isn't.

As far as the 'demon inside', that part is evil. But, generally, Angel keeps control of it.
Even so, do you really thing their world would be a better place if Angel staked himself? Is that the heroic thing to do?

And what of Spike - what evil did he do? As a vampire with a soul, he's done only good, and as a man, he was a decent guy, taking care of his elderly mother and what not. Hell, even for the latter part of being a souless demon, he fought for good. That's pretty signifigant, to me.
-Steve

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, February 9, 2004 12:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:
Uh...actually, I vote you can.
People are sentenced to die every day for crimes they commited, and I'm sure not one of them did anything as bad as the people in that room. Why was Wes upset with Angel? Because it wasn't a heroic thing to do, certainly. Perhaps it was even morally questionable, they waey some people consider the death penalty to be. But evil? Hell no.

So becoming a vampire was a bad choice for Angel; we all make bad choices. If Angel is evil, then I've never met anyone who isn't.

As far as the 'demon inside', that part is evil. But, generally, Angel keeps control of it.
Even so, do you really thing their world would be a better place if Angel staked himself? Is that the heroic thing to do?

And what of Spike - what evil did he do? As a vampire with a soul, he's done only good, and as a man, he was a decent guy, taking care of his elderly mother and what not. Hell, even for the latter part of being a souless demon, he fought for good. That's pretty signifigant, to me.
-Steve

you seem to be applying your oppinions selectivly to the characters you like best to manipulate your argument. If I go by what you have already stated, then the lawyers angel left to die weren't evil either. They simply made a few poor choices about who to work for.. that would mean angel made the "poor choice" of letting innocent people die.. in fact, lets take it further.. darla and dru can't be held responsible for the demon's "poor choice" of killing those folks either so they aren't evil either.. in fact.. I am really not sure what angel is doing fighting these innocent people who make "poor choices" every day either.. makes him seem evil.. but i suppose that's just another poor choice.. so we can't villify that either.. looks like evil really doesn't exist at all.. just normal folk making bad choices. end of series.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, February 9, 2004 2:29 AM

The differance is, Angel's decision to become a vampire didn't directly affect anyone but himself, at least initially. I'm not sure if his reason for chosing this is discussed at any point, but I'd wager he made the decision because he wanted to be powerful and immortal, not because he wanted to do harm to people.

The other differance is that Angel's mistake is hundreds of years old. He's a completly differant man now; ashamed of his past, and seeking redemption. The lawyers in that room made no effort to change, and didn't mind doing all the horrible things they did every day.

You are right, though. Those lawyers did make bad choices; they made them often. And it's the choices that we make that determine who we are. Killing someone is a poor decision, and you are held accountable. Wheras Angel's decision to become a vampire is akin to deciding to drive a car while you're tired; if you fall asleep and kill someone, it isn't the same as if you hunt them down and beat them to death.
-Steve

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, February 9, 2004 3:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:
The differance is, Angel's decision to become a vampire didn't directly affect anyone but himself, at least initially. I'm not sure if his reason for chosing this is discussed at any point, but I'd wager he made the decision because he wanted to be powerful and immortal, not because he wanted to do harm to people.

The other differance is that Angel's mistake is hundreds of years old. He's a completly differant man now; ashamed of his past, and seeking redemption. The lawyers in that room made no effort to change, and didn't mind doing all the horrible things they did every day.

You are right, though. Those lawyers did make bad choices; they made them often. And it's the choices that we make that determine who we are. Killing someone is a poor decision, and you are held accountable. Wheras Angel's decision to become a vampire is akin to deciding to drive a car while you're tired; if you fall asleep and kill someone, it isn't the same as if you hunt them down and beat them to death.
-Steve

So, you are arguing intent then? Like.. because Angel didn't really know what he was getting into when he decided to become a vampire, then that makes him less guilty of the crimes that were committed? And because the lawyers actively intended to continue to make these poor decisions they are then MORE responsible for there "evil" than angel? I dunno.. it's a tuff sell but I can kinda see what you're saying.

I personally believe that even an alcoholic is as responsible for the deaths he causes in an automobile accident that he didn't intend to get into when drinking, as say, the DC sniper or someone who actively went out to kill people.

Anyway.. I guess this tangent has been gloriously traversed.. What my original point was = ...to me Wes just seems to get the raw end of the deal over and over again.. he seems like a generally good guy who.. (in the evidence I have seen) hasn't deserved it "as much" as angle and spike. Obviously you believe that the soul of spike and angel are innocent of the crimes committed throughout the ages in their guise. I am still not so sure about that.

If you believe the soul of angel is innocent.. I guess I might be able to buy that.. BUT.. Angel as he is now seems to be "a being which is comprised of the soul of the human he once was.. and the angelus demon sharing the same body".. I believe he is the sum of those parts and therefore responsible to some extent for both Angel and Angelus' crimes.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, February 9, 2004 5:34 AM

SPACEANGLER

Quote:
Originally posted by twoblueeyes:
And SpaceAngler, if you live in the Richmond area, Angel is broadcast on Channel 12 (NBC) on Friday at 2:30 a.m. ! I'd prefer the WB's scheduled airing but at least it's shown here !

Actually, it didn't. Some show called "Everwood" came on. Anyone know where I can get it?

--------------------------------------------
Spike: We all have addictions, Angel. I believe yours is called 'Slutty the Vampire Slayer.'

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, February 9, 2004 7:12 AM

TWOBLUEEYES

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAngler:
Quote:
Originally posted by twoblueeyes:
And SpaceAngler, if you live in the Richmond area, Angel is broadcast on Channel 12 (NBC) on Friday at 2:30 a.m. ! I'd prefer the WB's scheduled airing but at least it's shown here !

Actually, it didn't. Some show called "Everwood" came on. Anyone know where I can get it?

--------------------------------------------
Spike: We all have addictions, Angel. I believe yours is called 'Slutty the Vampire Slayer.'

Are you in the Richmond area ? Honestly, I saw it, got up 2:30 a.m., Friday ! Can I send you a tape ?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, February 9, 2004 7:24 AM

I agree; Angel and Spike are partially responsable for the deaths because of tehir decision to become vampires. But they never conciously decided to kill anyone (though Angel allowed several to be killed through neglect).

As for Wes...I don't think I ever really forgave him for stealing Conner. You don't take a man's child like that. Isn't right. I know, he thought it was in danger, yadda yadda; but if your neighbor and his baby are living in a house that violates fire safty codes, you tell the neighbor, and get the problem fixed; you don't break into his house at night and steal the kid.

That was sweet when he shot his 'dad' like eight times, though.
-Steve

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, February 9, 2004 7:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:
I agree; Angel and Spike are partially responsable for the deaths because of tehir decision to become vampires. But they never conciously decided to kill anyone (though Angel allowed several to be killed through neglect).

As for Wes...I really forgave himfor stealing Conner. You don't take a man's child like that. Isn't right. I know, he thought it was in danger, yadda yadda; but if your neighbor and his baby are living in a house taht violates fire saftey codes, you tell the neighbor, and get the problem fixed; you don't break into his house at night and steal the kid.

That was sweet when he shot his 'dad' like eight times, though.
-Steve

Bwahaha..

yeah i was so thrilled when wes shot his "Dad" like that.. I agree wes made a bad call stealing connor like that.

However.. Angel used to make it a real big deal to let folks know that the most important thing you could do to be his friend is know when to put him down if it came to that... I think wes, having been privy to Angelus' nature in the past, was simply affaid that this was the time.. though.. i don't like his methods.. he should have told his friends.. not acted alone.. so.. yeah.. it was not cool of him

damn, i think we sucessfully finished that entirely-too-deep-for-this-board conversation. you have my respect for hanging in there

~~Robb of Winterfell~~
~ http://winterfell.org ~
High Fantasy Heavy Metal

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, February 9, 2004 6:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Winterfell:
Bwahaha.. yeah i was so thrilled when wes shot his "Dad" like that.. I agree wes made a bad call stealing connor like that.

However.. Angel used to make it a real big deal to let folks know that the most important thing you could do to be his friend is know when to put him down if it came to that... I think wes, having been privy to Angelus' nature in the past, was simply affaid that this was the time.. though.. i don't like his methods.. he should have told his friends.. not acted alone.. so.. yeah.. it was not cool of him

damn, i think we sucessfully finished that entirely-too-deep-for-this-board conversation. you have my respect for hanging in there

Lol, thanks

Yeah, I watched the dad-shooting scene like eight times, and showed it to several friends who'd never even heard of the show. It was just so cool!

Wasn't Wes also the one that had the slow-motion scene at the beginning of that ep -- where he takes both guns, and does a kind of Max Payne dive? Because that was nice, too.
-Steve

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, February 10, 2004 1:00 AM