In Angel Season 5, did it become the Angel/Spike Show? by chrisisall

ANGELUS ARCANUM

In Angel Season 5, did it become the Angel/Spike Show?

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Saturday, November 18, 2006 07:03
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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 4:43 AM

CHRISISALL

...and if you feel it did, did you mind?

S5 fan Chrisisall

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 4:45 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Well, an action show needs an action hero and Boreanaz was hors de combat for a large part of the run. Mind you, there have been folks who blamed Carpenter for Season 4.

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 5:13 AM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

I don't think it did, but I think Spike's arrival changed the group dynamic a lot quicker than the introduction of other characters. Characters like Gunn and Fred were pretty much regulars from their first appearance but they were worked in naturally and over a period of time. They grew into the group dynamic, Lorne even more so, taking well over a season to join Angel's crew. Spike however had a good six years of backstory and was one of the Buffyverse's most important players. It wouldn't have worked to slowly bring him in, especially considering his end on Buffy, so they had to revolve some of the early plotlines around him to have it makes sense. By the middle of the season Wes and Fred had equally important (and by Illyria more important) plotlines than Spike, Gunn and Lorne were underused but Angel was always right there at the top, Spike's arrival was seen through his eyes not the other way around. I don't think it ever stopped being his show.

However, Buffy season 7 was a very different matter. I think that became the Buffy/Spike show, though I think that's a discussion for another thread.

-------------------------------------------------

I do not kill with my hand.
He who kills with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I kill with my heart.

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 5:21 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by chronicthehedgehog:

However, Buffy season 7 was a very different matter. I think that became the Buffy/Spike show, though I think that's a discussion for another thread.

We can do it here, it's all sort of the same topic...
I don't think it did, REALLY, it was (like you said about Angel) always through Buffy's eyes, and I feel it remained solidly her show.

But you obviously don't. Why?

Hijacking Chrisisall

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 8:53 AM

DEEPGIRL187

You say that like it's a bad thing.

I'm just starting season five (and once Netflix sends me the right frickin' disc, I can finish it

). I don't know everything that goes down yet, but so far, I'm really enjoying it. Though I have to say, I really miss the family atmosphere that was present in the earlier seasons. Team Angel is still a team, but not quite a family.

I'll also have to say that season seven of Buffy wasn't the Buffy/Spike show so much as season six. That season did have some great episodes, but the dark theme was hard for me to watch. You can only see Spike get screwed so much (figuratively speaking, don't seem to mind literally

).

*************************************************

"So long and goodnight."

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:08 AM

GROOSALUGG

If S7 of Buffy seemed like the Buffy & Spike Show, it was only because they're the only two characters who got anything approaching a decent arc. Spike didn't get any more screentime that year than he had in previous--it's just that Willow, Xander, Anya, etc., got so much less...

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:56 AM

CHRISISALL

So G, what about AtS S5, did Spike's addition turn it into the Angel and Spike Hour for you?

I thought he fit in pretty bloody seamlessly myself...

But then- SPIKE FAN Chrisisall

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 8:39 PM

GROOSALUGG

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
So G, what about AtS S5, did Spike's addition turn it into the Angel and Spike Hour for you?

You noticed I avoided that in my last answer then, huh?

Mostly because, I don't really have a definitive opinion on it. At times, yeah, maybe it did become that, but if so, never in a bad way. I agree with you that for the most part, he blended in seamlessly with the rest of the cast, but still, he probably got a little more to work with than Alexis, Amy, J., or Andy did that year.

The one thing that certainly didn't happen was Spike completely taking over the show and outshining its star, which is what a lot of the pro-Angel/anti-Spike folks were doom-'n-glooming during the summer before S5. He was a great foil to Angel, but he never overshadowed him.

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 3:40 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:

The one thing that certainly didn't happen was Spike completely taking over the show and outshining its star, which is what a lot of the pro-Angel/anti-Spike folks were doom-'n-glooming during the summer before S5. He was a great foil to Angel, but he never overshadowed him.

Agree absolutly. And I expected it to happen, frankly.
Good on ME for treading that fine line, and giving us near Firefly quality greatness on Angel's finest hours.
Pound for pound, I can't say which is better, Buffy 3 or Angel 5...

Yes I can, Angel 5

Chrisisall

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 1:18 PM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

Sorry it took me too long to reply, been out of town seeing Lordi.

I think Buffy because the Buffy/Spike show because Spike got a season long character arc as he dealt with his soul and learned to deal with it and Buffy never really did. I thought that Spike defined much of the season and dominated it's plotlines in a much greater way than Buffy's coming to terms with being a leader and in a much greater way than he did in Angel. His trigger, his past, his relationship with Buffy were all centre stage causing him to grow and change, Buffy however was stuck in a leadership rutt. She didn't change, she made speeches, she became one of the least interesting characters on the show. It also seemed to become about how people viewed Buffy, how she was elevated above the others and much of that was how Spike perceived her to the detriment of long-running characters like Xander and Anya.

-------------------------------------------------

I do not kill with my hand.
He who kills with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I kill with my heart.

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Monday, October 30, 2006 8:54 PM

GROOSALUGG

Quote:
Originally posted by chronicthehedgehog:
Sorry it took me too long to reply, been out of town seeing Lordi.

I think Buffy because the Buffy/Spike show because Spike got a season long character arc as he dealt with his soul and learned to deal with it and Buffy never really did. I thought that Spike defined much of the season and dominated it's plotlines in a much greater way than Buffy's coming to terms with being a leader and in a much greater way than he did in Angel. His trigger, his past, his relationship with Buffy were all centre stage causing him to grow and change, Buffy however was stuck in a leadership rutt. She didn't change, she made speeches, she became one of the least interesting characters on the show. It also seemed to become about how people viewed Buffy, how she was elevated above the others and much of that was how Spike perceived her to the detriment of long-running characters like Xander and Anya.

Very well said (thankee-sai), especially the part about Buffy and what a tiresome character she became during that final season.

Very true, also, about how much of the season seemed to revolve around Spike, and his trigger--which is just one of the reasons I dislike that year so much. All that time spent on Spike's trigger, and the First's ability to manipulate him, and what a key role he'll play in its ultimate plan--then he's de-triggered, and we don't even get so much as a "Darn, now I guess I'll have to think of something else" from it. Geez, if you ask us to invest so much time caring about this plotline, is it too much to expect a little better payoff from it?

The only thing there that I disagree with you on is how much Spike 'grew and changed' during S7. For me, he underwent less character development and growth during that year than in any other. Heck, he learned and grew more during one episode of S5 of Angel ("Damage") than he did in the entire last season of Buffy...

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Tuesday, October 31, 2006 4:53 PM

EMBERS

the dynamic was going to change without Cordelia regardless,
but I don't think that Wesley, Fred, Gunn, or Loren got ignored...
I thought they all ended up with more interesting things to do than they had had in the past
(Wesley sleeping w/Lilah was not nearly as good as his getting an entire episode w/his 'Father's visit)

I felt that Gunn's role was really enhanced with the 'brain up-grade'

Basically I felt that everyone had lots of shiny new fun things to do, which had nothing to do with Spike joining the show.
Personally I thought that Amy Acker's performance as Illyria was electrifying!

I also thought that Harmony deserves some credit;
Spike wasn't the only pretty blonde bringing some comedy to Angel!

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Wednesday, November 1, 2006 5:13 AM

CHRISISALL

Good call, Em!

Agreeable Chrisisall

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Wednesday, November 1, 2006 2:56 PM

DEEPGIRL187

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
I also thought that Harmony deserves some credit; Spike wasn't the only pretty blonde bringing some comedy to Angel!

Damn straight! They were completely evil to her in "Harm's Way".

Angel and Spike did play well off of each other. I especially liked the interaction between them in "The Girl In Question". Though I do wish they could have explored their dislike of each other more. We know why Spike doesn't like Angel (and with good reason, if you think about it), but it's not so clear on Angel's side.

But I have to say, as much as I liked having Spike on Angel, James Marsters is a leading man. Placing him in a supporting role is just wrong to me. There's way too much talent that wasn't being used. What he really should have gotten is his own show...

*************************************************

"So long and goodnight."

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Saturday, November 18, 2006 7:03 AM

JWHEDONADDICT

Yes, it did in a sense. My feeling on whether I minded is kind of murky. Apparently, Spike was the main reason Angel GOT a fifth season at all, but if Spike is the reason we lost Cordelia...I don't know. I love both characters, even now.

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