ANGELUS ARCANUM

POSTED BY: KAYLEEFORQUEEN
UPDATED: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 19:22
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Saturday, February 7, 2004 9:00 PM

KAYLEEFORQUEEN


Wow, not the kind of response I was expecting at all...
Several points- From what I understood,Carpenter expected to return this season. It was Joss's decision to let her go.
As far as the point about it being their show,they can do what they want with it-I would point out that by that logic, Fox is the Fox executives network and they can do whatever they want with it-including cancelling Firefly-and nobody should protest their decisions. I don't think too many people on this board would agree with that argument...
I use the term fix as a convient short-hand. Some people want Cordelia back full-time, some part-time, some would be happy with just one appearance or even some lines of dialogue indicating that Cordelia is alive, happy and contuing her life off-camera. It's just easier to summarise it all as "fix the Cordelia situation. Make sense?
I agree completely that death is not final in the Jossverse. We just commitment from Joss that Cordelia's story is far from over.
BTW, I'm not bashing Joss. I think he's an incredibly talented writer and I want more Angel, more Firefly,Ripper, the Buffy animated series, the Buffy spin-off etc. I think he's gotten into a really bad habit of killing off good characters for cheap drama but I do think he's far too talented to need to do that. I and the many,many other people who've posted or signed at the links I've given think he's made a
mistake here (admittedly, some of the other posters and signers do bash Joss but I am not). The title of this thread is If you were unhappy with the End of Angel 100. If you weren't,then don't get involved in protesting it. Nobody's holding a gun to anybody's head.
As for the one who posted about 1984,no call for that. This is a nice board. No need to get nasty.


Best wishes,

Scott


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Sunday, February 8, 2004 10:29 AM

TIGERLILY


there is a disctint difference between fox making a buisness decision to cancel a show, and a writer/producer/director/actor, making a creative decision to have a character die. or cut their hair. or drink from a juice box.

i don't feel it is right to protest the content of a creative product like a tv show. joss has said many times he gives the audience what they need, not what they want. if tv shows were decided by polls measuring what the audience wants, they would all suck giant donkey balls.

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Sunday, February 8, 2004 11:51 AM

KALATHENA


That was me. I don't have a problem fessing up to it. If you're going to start something as silly as what you did, you should expect dissent.

Your "understandings" are wrong. I have read interviews. Charisma left because 1) She felt there was nothing left to do with the character and 2) She did not want to be on a full time series with a new baby.

And to fess up to something else, I actually have and still do argue about piece of literature I think someone should change. But the only reason I think I have *any* say in that what-so-ever is because he asked what I thought. He's my husband and he usually does.

At the risk of being a big meany again, you can believe all the fan-wank you want to about behind the scene's back-stabbing if it makes you feel better. It doesn't make it true.

--Kala

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Sunday, February 8, 2004 12:02 PM

KAYLEEFORQUEEN


Quote:

Originally posted by tigerLily:
there is a disctint difference between fox making a buisness decision to cancel a show, and a writer/producer/director/actor, making a creative decision to have a character die. or cut their hair. or drink from a juice box.

i don't feel it is right to protest the content of a creative product like a tv show. joss has said many times he gives the audience what they need, not what they want. if tv shows were decided by polls measuring what the audience wants, they would all suck giant donkey balls.


Should post spoilers for Angel Ep 100 here since this somehow seems to have become a seperate thread (BTW, how did that happen? Did somebody hit the wrong button or was there some reason this was changed to a seperate topic? And if there was a reason,1984 really shouldn't be the title of this thread as Tiger Lily was not the person who brought up 1984)
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Actually, tv shows are decided by polls of what the audience wants. That's pretty much as good a description of the ratings system as I've ever heard.
As far protesting the creative product of a show,why not? Nobody's always right. Not me,not you,not Joss,nobody. Most creative decisions on anything that isn't a one-person enterprise are reached through a certain amount of juggling of various points of view. We're simply expressing ours.
I have heard that statement of Joss's before and I've never quite understood it. I don't know why in the world he would think that I would particularly need Cordelia to die. What I actually need is a new car....Seriously, I have always wondered how he can be so sure that the audience particularly needs things like Cordelia's death. I didn't and a LOT of other people didn't. I mean,it's a great line in a great song but,really,it's kind of hard to decide
what other people actually need since you can only really know what you need-and that's hard enough for most people to figure out (Of course,it's different if you're a parent of a small child but that's another matter entirely...). You really can't know the inner depths of anyone else's psyche and that's the only way you could ever figure out what they need ( and even then, there's no gurantee you'd be right...).

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Sunday, February 8, 2004 12:16 PM

KAYLEEFORQUEEN


Quote:

Originally posted by kalathena:
That was me. I don't have a problem fessing up to it. If you're going to start something as silly as what you did, you should expect dissent.

Your "understandings" are wrong. I have read interviews. Charisma left because 1) She felt there was nothing left to do with the character and 2) She did not want to be on a full time series with a new baby.

And to fess up to something else, I actually have and still do argue about piece of literature I think someone should change. But the only reason I think I have *any* say in that what-so-ever is because he asked what I thought. He's my husband and he usually does.

At the risk of being a big meany again, you can believe all the fan-wank you want to about behind the scene's back-stabbing if it makes you feel better. It doesn't make it true.

--Kala




I must say, I'm still a little surprised at the vehemence of your reaction. I obviously disagree with you completely but I certainly wouldn't insult your opinions by calling them silly or being nasty or sarcastic.
As far as Charisma interviews go, we've obviously read different ones. All the interviews I've read with Charisma and Joss indicated that it was Joss's decision to let her go not hers. Yes, she's making the best of it but she really doesn't have a lot of choice in the matter....

Best wishes,

Scott

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Monday, February 9, 2004 7:28 AM

STEVE580


I don't get it...if you want to watch one of Joss' shows, then watch it. It you don't, then don't. But don't watch it, and then say he did it wrong. It's his damned show, and he does with it what he likes; which is why I love it.

Just doesn't make sense to me.
-Steve

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Monday, February 9, 2004 1:02 PM

KAYLEEFORQUEEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Steve580:
I don't get it...if you want to watch one of Joss' shows, then watch it. It you don't, then don't. But don't watch it, and then say he did it wrong. It's his damned show, and he does with it what he likes; which is why I love it.

Just doesn't make sense to me.
-Steve



It's really no different than anyone watching a TV show, a movie or whatever and giving a review. Think of what we're saying as a negative review of one element of an otherwise outstanding episode. Clearer?


Best wishes,

Scott

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Monday, February 9, 2004 8:30 PM

STEVE580


Quote:

Originally posted by KayleeforQueen:
Quote:

Originally posted by Steve580:
I don't get it...if you want to watch one of Joss' shows, then watch it. It you don't, then don't. But don't watch it, and then say he did it wrong. It's his damned show, and he does with it what he likes; which is why I love it.

Just doesn't make sense to me.
-Steve



It's really no different than anyone watching a TV show, a movie or whatever and giving a review. Think of what we're saying as a negative review of one element of an otherwise outstanding episode. Clearer?


Best wishes,

Scott


Yeah, but this is like a petition to not have William Wallace be killed at the end of 'Braveheart'.

And reviewers don't approach the director, and tell them to make certain changes to the movie to make it more satisfactory; which is what you are proposing.

Not like it matters. I'm sure Whedon will never change a show because of a petition, or the like.
-Steve

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Monday, February 9, 2004 8:47 PM

KAYLEEFORQUEEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Steve580:
Quote:

Originally posted by KayleeforQueen:
Quote:

Originally posted by Steve580:
I don't get it...if you want to watch one of Joss' shows, then watch it. It you don't, then don't. But don't watch it, and then say he did it wrong. It's his damned show, and he does with it what he likes; which is why I love it.

Just doesn't make sense to me.
-Steve



It's really no different than anyone watching a TV show, a movie or whatever and giving a review. Think of what we're saying as a negative review of one element of an otherwise outstanding episode. Clearer?


Best wishes,

Scott


Yeah, but this is like a petition to not have William Wallace be killed at the end of 'Braveheart'.

And reviewers don't approach the director, and tell them to make certain changes to the movie to make it more satisfactory; which is what you are proposing.

Not like it matters. I'm sure Whedon will never change a show because of a petition, or the like.
-Steve



Regarding Braveheart-didn't catch the movie but from what I understand,the story was already over there. The Angel story hopefully still has a long way to go. This is more of a suggestion as to future directions the story should take-not really dissimilar to people posting things that they would like to see in future episodes of Firefly,for instance. And,in point of fact,fans of ongoing sagas like Angel are always expressing their ideas about what direction the saga should take. Check out any Star Wars or Star Trek board for instance.
Professional reviewers do it too. Check out,say, Ebert and Roeper who are always telling people how to rewrite their movies. It's easier to do with an ongoing saga where there's the possiblity
of change but people do it with complete in themselves stories all the time.
And,needless to say,I certainly hope you're wrong about Joss not listening!


Best wishes,

Scott

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Tuesday, February 10, 2004 6:38 PM

TIGERLILY


scott - i guess my real problem is... and this is the only thing i object to. of course you can write to joss or whomever else you like...

don't you think you come off just a little bit pretensious, claiming you know joss made a mistake? like you know what is better for his own show than him?

i dunno... i'll let this thread die here, on my part anyways.

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Tuesday, February 10, 2004 7:22 PM

KAYLEEFORQUEEN


Quote:

Originally posted by tigerLily:
scott - i guess my real problem is... and this is the only thing i object to. of course you can write to joss or whomever else you like...

don't you think you come off just a little bit pretensious, claiming you know joss made a mistake? like you know what is better for his own show than him?

i dunno... i'll let this thread die here, on my part anyways.



I don't think I or anybody else involved with this am coming off pretentious. To use a Star Wars example again,after seeing the Phantom Menace,how many people were up in arms about Jar Jar Binks insisting that George Lucas dump him (In fact, I believe someone even put together a Binksless cut of the Phantom Menace...),although Star Wars is Lucas's property? This is absolutely no different from that (except that we're actually asking for someone to be put back
in...). This is really just a normal,healthy form of fan feedback,something any franchise needs if it wants to stay fresh and vital.

Best wishes,

Scott

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