Angel -- "The Jasmine Arc: Atheism for Dummies" by Novagrass

ANGELUS ARCANUM

Angel -- "The Jasmine Arc: Atheism for Dummies"

POSTED BY: NOVAGRASS
UPDATED: Friday, February 20, 2004 11:39
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Monday, February 16, 2004 6:44 AM

Wow, that was a compelling argument. Kinda sad really. I was hoping for a discussion, gainsaying is just boring. Thanks for making me wait all this time for nothing.

Catcher in the Rye is the stupidest thing I've ever read.

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Monday, February 16, 2004 12:12 PM

ARAWAEN

Quote:
Originally posted by MaTwang:
As I was reading this interesting thread, I realized that, when it was posted that Joss was "an angry athiest"- something about that line kept twinging in my mind's side as not sounding right... is there really such a thing as an "angry athiest"?

I cannot say whether or not Joss is an angry atheist, but I was. I hated God with a passion. My understanding is that I am not alone, I believe C.S. Lewis, G.K. Chesterton and Thomas Merton were all angry atheists prior to their 'conversion'.

Quote:
The pivotal word here is the concept of innate "athiestic anger" - who would they be mad at?

When you don't believe in god, the emotional attitude toward the subject (of whether there is a god) is more along the lines of ..."uh, whatever...."

If there are angry athiests, then surely their anger must be directed at the persistent and relentless prattle of those tireless, prodding believers, (you know who you are... wink wink, nudge nudge) and is not a component of their athiestic belief per se.

That is the question. It would makes sense to be mad at the 'fools' who believe, the institution, etc. but angry atheists, like myself have a grudge against God.

Quote:
As to Joss "challenging God" when things go bad, that's probably just a cursing habit he picked up from his Dad (or Mom).

Joss did refer to God as 'The Big Sky Bully' in a commentary (for 'The Body' I think).

Quote:
It's much more satisfying to vent your anger at the "big guy in charge"...somebody such as GOD - hence, personifying him/her, than yelling at the outcome of a series of random events.

"You damned tree! Why'd ya let the wind knock all of your damned leaves off your branches so they could be pulled to earth by the force of gravity thus necessitating me to have spend my Saturday raking the damned yard!!!"

Maybe one of the sources of belief in God is mankind's tendency to 'imagine' or 'perceive' a cosmic force intentionally thwarting our desires. A number of cultures have beliefs that center around the disbelief in accidents. Everything happens for a reason, and not the pop psychology variant. Bad things happen because of evil spirits, witches (evil ones I assume

)

Quote:
It's just not as satisfying. It doesn't evoke the sense of reckless defiance one gets when one takes the name of a so-called God in vain. The act of cursing is like daring those alleged powers-that-be to strike you down. It's a far more bully thing to do than to say under your breath, "O drats."

Though one must admit that it does fly in the face of the argument that belief in God is illogical. If you are going to deny a belief or action on the ground of logic, one would hope that your alternative is to believe and act logically. Though I actually agree with you one this, it is more satisfying to shake your fist at the 'heavens' though I believe it is because we are subconsciously egotistical enough to believe that the PTBs prevented us from accomplishing or getting whatever it was that we are angry about. Hell, I have blamed God for traffic lights changing (and for not changing), how silly is that? I must have a real chip on my shoulder to think that with 6 billion people on the planet, God wants to prevent me from getting to work on time.

Quote:
Athiestic anger would surely have to be be towards man, not towards the chaos inherent in life, which actually is kinda pretty.

In my view, there's gotta be something running all these fractals, but that's another thread.

This kind of discussion has always been up my alley, I even took a year of graduate theology before getting to depressed to continue. But overall, I would say that their are at least two kinds of atheists. Those that genuinely believe that their is no God and those that have something against God and religion (or a particular religion).

I was an angry atheist once. While that changed, I no longer believe in mankind, so I guess I am always doubting something.

Arawaen

Um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm Angry. And I'm Armed.

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Tuesday, February 17, 2004 3:43 AM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
by Webster's definitions your characterizations vs. faith are bang on. however, i'm of a mind to believe atheists don't generally have the faith to lose in the first place. anyone who says they're an atheist because they don't believe in the Almighty anymore still has the faith. it's just broken or lost. i mean can you really be against something that doesn't exist?

I don't see this the same way, maybe I am missing something.

Due to the non-corporeal nature of the deity, (or actually most models of divinity) making objective statements on its existence or lack thereof is impossible.

Since you can't touch it, see it, or ask it questions in open public forums, but only inside your own skull, you cannot objectively (i.e. independent of any specific observer) prove God exists. But you cannot prove that God does not exist.

The best atheistic arguments all rely on model dependent thinking. If and only if their particular model is the only one possible, does it exclude God.

This leaves the acceptance as well as the rejection of God as a belief. Both are faith based assumptions that one picks.

Atheism enjoys a bit of popularity, because of the mechanistic and successful nature of science, and the laws of nature revealed via this method of epistemology. Mankind did not set foot on the moon based on faith, but by hard work, study, experimentation, risking and sometimes losing, lives. God did not help.

Some folks elevate science up as a religion, where the two cannot be more distant. Science offers theories, ideas that may be true, but reality, objective reality, is the final arbiter of truth. Not our faith, our hopes or our ideas.

Religion is more authoritarian based, even the free spirited wiccan communities have their favorite writers. (In an eariler era they would have been made prophets and saints.) But the basic idea behind almost any and all religions is "This is the way it is, I said so"

Sometimes this can be a good thing. Being hung up on the decision loop can even get deadly, if you are not careful. Having an answer, even a wrong one, allows you to test out that answer, to move along, see if it is right. Having no answer, well, one gets stuck.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Tuesday, February 17, 2004 4:01 AM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by Arawaen:
Maybe one of the sources of belief in God is mankind's tendency to 'imagine' or 'perceive' a cosmic force intentionally thwarting our desires. A number of cultures have beliefs that center around the disbelief in accidents. Everything happens for a reason, and not the pop psychology variant. Bad things happen because of evil spirits, witches (evil ones I assume )

I think this is close. Before the discovery of the various laws of mechanics, when something happened, when things changed, mankind assumed that a similar cause was responsible for it. The field did not plow itself, someone had to do it.

Thus, snow does not fall by itself, or trees grow by themselves. The idea that change was produced or chosen by an intelligence seems to make perfect sense.

Quote:
I must have a real chip on my shoulder to think that with 6 billion people on the planet, God wants to prevent me from getting to work on time.

It is sometimes more satsifying to think that one is important or special to a very powerful entity, than to think that one is nothing but an mote. Egoism may be one's only defense against the great abyss of meaningless struggle in an uncaring, insensate universe.

For some reason I am reminded of the immortal words of Ambassador Londo Molari, "In troubled times such as these, you can never have too many gods."

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Tuesday, February 17, 2004 1:51 PM

METR0MAN

I felt that the Jasmine arc was more (or possibly ALSO) about Peace vs. Freedom. It was remarkably relevant to our times. There's a conflict and struggle going on in the wake of terrorism on US soil, what's truly more important? how many freedoms are worth sacrificing to make sure we stay safe from the terrorist attacks? in Jasmine's world, there was true and total harmony, it was Peace. But there was absolutely no freedom at all.

"A man of honor... in a den of thieves!"

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Wednesday, February 18, 2004 1:28 AM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by metr0man:
I felt that the Jasmine arc was more (or possibly ALSO) about Peace vs. Freedom. It was remarkably relevant to our times. There's a conflict and struggle going on in the wake of terrorism on US soil, what's truly more important? how many freedoms are worth sacrificing to make sure we stay safe from the terrorist attacks? in Jasmine's world, there was true and total harmony, it was Peace. But there was absolutely no freedom at all.

"A man of honor... in a den of thieves!"

Well there was the slight problem in that Jasmine was eating people. But other than that, yeah.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Wednesday, February 18, 2004 8:33 AM

BLACKEYEDGIRL

'Those who give up freedom for safety deserve neither.' That's a great quote by like Jefferson or something. I think that sums up the Jasmine arc if it is about peace v. freedom.

Atheism. Ah my old friend. I'm a devout atheist and anyone who says that an atheist had no faith to lose is dead off. I wanted to believe, I wanted a mechanism that would give my life meaning and purpose. I wanted the ability to think that when things happen to me, it's out of my control, that someone else guided and scripted the whole thing. But life doesn't work that way. Sh*t happens.

It's a frightening day when you realize, I'm not special. That's what religion is really about, it makes your life meaningful, it gives you a route to continue existing, if only in the vaguest terms. Being an atheist means coming to terms with the fact that, you as an individual, and your life, and everything you do in the grand scheme of things is nothing. You are just an ant in the hill, and when you die you will be replaced. Self reliance and existentialism hit it on the mark, I am in control of this life and anything that happens in it is a direct result of an action, or lack there of, of myself.

Now, as an Atheist I get a lot of crap thrown my way. But I also have my reasons. I studied the faiths, Christianity, Judaism, Isam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc... and at first I thought maybe my issue wasn't with a divine being, but that I had issues with the tight constraints of any one religion, that when it becomes an institution even the purest of intents can become perversed and distant from their original meanings and intentions. Basically the authenticity and truth of any one religion gets clouded by the politics of man. But then I considered, if this is true, wouldn't this divine being somehow show us the error of our ways to allow us to return to a simpler worship, or at least that it would makes it's presence known so as to truely offer the hope that it claims to offer. I mean would a deity allow the bastardization of itself? I think not. In Oz's words though, that may be a radical interpretation of the text.

So then I thought why do people worship? Why do people rely on a deity? What does it bring to their lives? The answer was simple: purpose. Hope breeds purpose, if one believes that things can get better one trys to make them better. This gives guidance and purpose, things get better because people try to make them better, and tada! look everyone it's god's work!

When there is no god to rely on, there is only yourself. Most religions seem to base themselves that when good things happen, God was helping you, but when bad things happen you have somehow spurned god, or have been mislead by evil, and now god is teaching you a lesson. It's the big finger in the sky poo-pooing you for your mistakes. It's like me and my friends say: How come when someone wins an award they thank god, but the losers never blame god? When you are left with yourself, when you screw up, it's completely your fault, when something good happens, it's also your fault. If you fall from a 10 story building and live, it's not because god didn't want you to die, it was chance. The universe is a big giant random probability machine, and once in a while the unprobable becomes probable for you.

Now I have decided for myself that there is no divine being watching over us. The only place I give that there may have been a 'touch' of god is as a first mover. Something putting this whole wacky Earth experiment in motion, something causing a big bang that made the universe become. Technically this makes god an atom. One single atom that's unprobable became probable and blew the roof off the whole damn thing. An atom, the same atom being a piece of every single piece of matter in the universe. All came from one, as nothing can truely ever be destroyed, it just changes form. Technically everything being made of the stuff of this 'god.' But still I do not worship, as this god just is, with no intentions, benificience, nemesis, this is a hands off and MIA god that in a sense destroyed itself to make all of this. Not exactly the loving baby kissing vision you had hoped for right? (or is that politicians)

When it comes down to it at the end of the day, I have faith in myself. I can't rely on a divine being to make my life. It's all up to me. I believe that there doesn't have to be a why, because I think the answer is, we just are. In the grand scheme of things, we are just a blip on the radar of time, and a blip who's light will eventually fade.

I'm reminded of a Freidrich Neitzche wrote: "I'll believe in god, the day it comes down and shakes my hand, until then I will not believe." (this isn't direct, I can't remember the quote exactly, that's the gist.) If god walked up to me ala Joan of Arcadia, I might be tempted to reconsider my belief system.

Finally, my biggest 'problem' with the notion of god is basically, why is it such a jerk? I mean it has billions of loyal followers, yet it's divine hand can't stop war or famine, it's can't divinely intervene and cure AIDS or cancer? I mean if god loved its people so much would it let them get raped and murdered? If this god is in the drivers seat wouldn't it stop crashing us into walls at 60 mph? I remember my aunt was a devout Catholic in the strictest sense, when she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer she told me 'this was god testing her faith' it pained me to hear her think that god gave her a terminal illness to make sure she was a good Catholic.

This rant is becoming a full stop tangent parade, so I'll stop. But I always love a good arguement where neither side can ever be truely correct because there is no hard eveidence either way. Basically we could all be wrong, somewhere out there we could all just be a really hilarious Reality Based TV show for aliens. I can hear it now: "Let's find out what happens when beings are allowed to evolve undisturbed, let's see the 'Evolved Earth' on everynight from 7 to 11pm!" Oh crap, I probably just gave Fox another Reality TV show idea which will spurn all other episodic shows from here on out!

Adrianna

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Wednesday, February 18, 2004 10:42 AM

ARAWAEN

Quote:
Atheism... I wanted the ability to think that when things happen to me, it's out of my control, that someone else guided and scripted the whole thing. But life doesn't work that way. Sh*t happens.

You don't need to believe in God to believe that everything is out of your control, guided and scripted by forces that dwarf us. Strict materialism denies any divine intelligence but also denies free will, everything is just mechanical.

Belief in a divine being doesn't imply that 'someone is guiding or scripting the whole thing'. Many traditions accept that 'God' (for lack of a better word) gave his creation freedom, the shit happens because of our choices, our collective choices. The reason certain choices are considered so bad is that they don't simply hurt the individual making them, but spread out infecting the whole community as it were.

Quote:
It's a frightening day when you realize, I'm not special. That's what religion is really about, it makes your life meaningful, it gives you a route to continue existing, if only in the vaguest terms. Being an atheist means coming to terms with the fact that, you as an individual, and your life, and everything you do in the grand scheme of things is nothing. You are just an ant in the hill, and when you die you will be replaced. Self reliance and existentialism hit it on the mark, I am in control of this life and anything that happens in it is a direct result of an action, or lack there of, of myself.

It can also be a frightening day when you realize that you are special, not in the sense that you are priviledged (and TOO MANY people practice religion for the reason you mentioned). I have found that most religions are a burden when truely practiced body, mind and soul (though it is a small percentage of any religion's members that does so).

Atheism is such a broad category, just like Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc. The people who fall under its definition can be so wildly different as to be actually closer to their opposition that to their fellows. I am not even talking about denominations, which are finer grained definitions. Some Christian philosophies believe in free will, some believe in predestination. Christian existentialists and atheist existentialists probably have more in common with each other than with a rationalist from either side of the divine existence camp.

Um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm Angry. And I'm Armed.

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Thursday, February 19, 2004 5:27 AM

STEVE580

Quote:
Originally posted by HRHTheDude:
Wow, that was a compelling argument. Kinda sad really.

Who's arguing? I was just making a comment.
-Steve

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Thursday, February 19, 2004 7:02 AM

IDEFIX

I read some of the answers to the "Is There A God?" question on the site linked obove.

and I really found one that sums up my own thoughts about it.

it's the statement of one Andy Richter, whom I don't know anything about.

Quote:

"Andy Richter: I don't think so. I don't know. I don't think about it much, because I figure, what's the point? I don't know if it's agnosticism. There are things that are beyond our comprehension, so why bother? That's sort of my spiritual feelings. I feel like there might be some design. You can't think, like, "Well, how did everything get here?" I don't know. That's how it is. "I don't know, next, now what's for lunch?" When you pray, I don't think anyone's listening. Besides other people, I don't think anyone cares if you murder people or masturbate or shove things up your butt. I don't think there's anybody sitting in the sky watching you. You're on your own. All you have is other people around you, and how you treat them. I actually think that not having a focus on God would make life better, because there would be more of an imperative to be nice to each other. There would be no more brand-name wars over stuff, and pointless arguments over east side/west side, go-fight-win. But I don't know. People have got to worry about something, and there's obviously some kind of anthropological, almost zoological need. This particular animal does this particular thing. Instead of constructing a hive out of paper that they chew up, they create a God. It's just something that they do."

and I never had this urge to chew up a god of any kind.

I was (shortly) attending christian classes in first grade (protestant and catholic, I tried both that are available here in germany) and I came home and told my mother if it was ok that I don't go there anymore because they tell me some bullshit and I really don't have the patience for sitting through this. maybe I never believed in any god because of the way it's usually told to children. maybe if they talked about a noncorporeal higher power somewhere guiding my life I would have at least thought about it maybe being true. but they insisted on talking about this man up in the sky and I just rolled my eyes at them.

and now I really don't want to be guided by any higher power so I hope that there's no god. to me it feels really weird that so many people believe in god. for me it's just not logical to come up with the concept. I know that I can't ever know if there is one (or many) or not so I just don't think too much about it and try to think about things I can know and I can change. same with the big questions: "Why am I here?" "What will happen to me, when I die?" I can't ever know so why bother to think about it? it's not really relevant for my life if I will be reborn or just gone or in some kind of afterlife. I can't prepare for something I know nothing about and my life won't be any better if I come up with a 'believe' just for the sake of it. I just wait and see.

and morality has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. I can learn what's right and wrong without ever having attended one single lesson of any religion. we do have special school classes for the atheist or believers in religions other than the popular ones. they are called "ethics" class and I really loved those. we started out with questions like "What would you do..." and "Why would you do that?" and "Do you think that's right?" and ended it with a look at different philosophers and religions. really inspired us to think and not just do what we were told because you simply weren't told but asked. and I appreciated that when I was a child and I still appreciate it.

I think the world would be a better place if there were no religions and people were taught to think for themselves and act according to that and be responsible for what they do.

might be a strain on some people but maybe not and we all would be surprised of what humanity could achieve if they all were encouraged to think and not obey.

and now you've all figured out that I'm anti-authoritarian at heart. I hate being told because I believe in myself and the power of my own mind and the judgement of my own conscience.

and this kind of debates are always fun as long as no one feels threatened by it and trys to convert it into a shouting match. I hope my post isn't shouting match inspiring. I didn't intend it to be. it's just my view of things and I'm as insignificant as they come, so stay cool.

Idefix

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Friday, February 20, 2004 1:31 AM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by BlackEyedGirl:
Atheism. Ah my old friend. I'm a devout atheist and anyone who says that an atheist had no faith to lose is dead off. I wanted to believe, I wanted a mechanism that would give my life meaning and purpose. I wanted the ability to think that when things happen to me, it's out of my control, that someone else guided and scripted the whole thing. But life doesn't work that way. Sh*t happens.

I really liked this post. I ain't an atheist, I define myself as the opposite of an agnostic. Agnostics doubt there is no God, I doubt that there isn't one. If that makes any sense, welcome to my world.

I hang with pagans alot, mostly because paganism is still such a generic rubric that can allow any theological belief. Allows me the freedom to sort out the answers myself, rather than sit quietly and have it handed to me.

As for "meaning" and "purpose", these are not real things. These are mental constructs. When you ask what the meaning of something is, what it represents, or stands in for, you (well, I at any rate) have to ask, "Meaning to who? In whose mind does this mean that?"

The same goes with purpose. Both concepts inherently imply some intelligence. And then the question becomes which intelligence, and more importantly, which intelligence whose meaning should be used.

In another thread there was discussion of the Civil War. The Confederate flag is to some seen as a symbol of racism. To others, a symbol of state's rights, or rebelling against authority, with the racist concept stripped clear. Same image, two different meanings.

So who is right? Unfortunately, right don't enter in to it. In the minds of some, that flag means one thing. That is a fact. In the minds of others, it means something completely different. That is also a fact, and both groups will act as if the flag means exactly what they think it means, because to them, it does mean what they think it means.

[Same can be said of the swastika. P.J.O'Rourke talks about a trip to India, when he sees a logo for one of the national political parties, comprising a swastika, an om, and a second swatiska. To western eyes, it looks pretty odd. P.J. interpreted it as "Seig Heil, Inner Peace, Seig Heil"]

Quote:
I believe that there doesn't have to be a why, because I think the answer is, we just are.

Well I ain't so negative as that. I got a brain, which means I can create my own meaning, or purpose. We may just be, but so?

We don't live in isolation, and the universe works the way it does. And is completely insensate to my desires, wishes, hopes or wants. I do have to figure out how this world works. (The next, I figure there will be plenty of time for that later.) The reason for that is to get the universe to do what I want, create the effects from my actions that I find desirable, beneficial, and keeps me from getting killed.

So, figure out what you want to do, and figure out how the 'verse works. Then once you got those two, you can figure out how to get from where you are, to where you want to go.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Friday, February 20, 2004 2:10 AM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
I think the world would be a better place if there were no religions and people were taught to think for themselves and act according to that and be responsible for what they do.

Not so sure about that. I will note that early Americans were for the most part Christian Protestants of one stripe or another. Quakers, Puritans, Baptist, etc. From those various Protestant traditions, (well Protestantism in general) the concept of individual freedom and rights came about.

Do you really think any power structure would allow that to happen, if that power structure were not, at least conceptually or rhetorically, beholden to some divine authority?

Governments and politics come about because you have a bunch of folks all trying to accomplish similar goals, like not getting eaten by lions. To coordinate something like defenses, someone has to be put in charge. Or else, someone with the biggest guns and the will to use it, declares himself Leader, and force everyone to do their bidding.

Along the way, the "divine right of kings" came about. Which was one way to keep the aristocracy under the influence of the Church (notably in western tradition, the Catholic Church). This proved to be more beneficial than declaring the Emperor God, as that put an authority over the king.

Also, out of the Protestant Revolution, (and the various wars fought over the issue), we ended up with the concept of freedom of religion. Your interpretation of the Bible may be just as right as mine, even if your interpretation is that I am completely nuts. But we can tolerate each other, agree to disagree, and live happier.

What this does in turn, is again, give folks the freedom to listen to what the divine tells them personally. To figure out moral questions, meaning and purpose of life, etc. Discuss, debate, and all that jazz, and in the process improve on how we think the universe works, and thereby figure out ways to provide for more and more of our desires.

Why is it western culture has spread, has shown itself to be so successful, while much of the rest of the planet has lagged behind? Technically, economically, politically, militarily, and culturally, the west came up with a conceptual framework that has proven more successful, and faster at achieving that success, than any competitors. I don't think anyone can argue some kind of racial superiority, so it must be some cultural factors that got us where we are today.

Religious tolerance leads to tolerance in other areas of thought. Selecting your own congregation's deacons, (Presbyterians) or even your own pastor (Congregationalists) leads to picking your own leaders in other areas, such as political governments. Even if you "know" the One True Way, it is the tolerance of all those folks who are simply mistaken, (but maybe they might have a good point here and there) that leads to developments that improve your lives, as well as those of the heathens.

"Knowing" God sees mankind as special, instead of just an animal or "biot" (a biological robot. Does exactly what it is programmed to do), well, its a great self esteam booster for some. And can lead you to try things that otherwise you would not. Thinking one is nothing, that whatever you do does not matter, well, that is not good for getting things done.

Quote:
and now you've all figured out that I'm anti-authoritarian at heart. I hate being told because I believe in myself and the power of my own mind and the judgement of my own conscience.

This is the ultimate irony as I see it. This very anti-authoritarianism is a direct result of religious influences and thinking. Would we have the Internet, if Martin Luther had not nailed those complaints to the church door? Or if the Catholic church decided that "thou shalt not kill" did not apply to this apostate heretic? (Granted they did try for some time, but the weight of the Protestant Revolution kind of forced that back. It was losing them buns in the seats, and cutting into to the tithes they were collecting.)

I don't know. Religion is part of our culture and our heritage. And I do worry that if you remove this one thread, we'd be in a very different, more backward place. And you and I would not have this conversation. What else would get man to rise above the animals, or demand his own freedom against overwhelming odds, or even give him the concept of individual freedom in the first place?

It should be pointed out that concepts and philosophies, analogous to biological species, evolve over time. They do not spring fully formed, but each new form still has to be fit enough to survive, provide a benefit to its adherents. Its easy to show how the concept of a God who loves the individual leads to the concepts of individual freedom. I am not sure you can get there with the concept that man is nothing but an animal, or a machine.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Friday, February 20, 2004 3:48 AM

IDEFIX

I'm not really sure what to answer. I don't think I (or any other human being) need the 'knowledge' (that is exactly _not_ knowledge but believe) of a god that loves them (and I never saw the christian god as a 'loving' one, much too much hate and violence in the bible for it, too much commandments and too little encouragement to think on your own and decide for yourself) to find out that humans are something other than animals or maschines. I believe us thinking about anything is what makes us different but I don't believe it makes us superior, just different.

I don't need a god to tell me what I should do and I sure don't need one to find meaning in my life. we can find meaning in any number of things to do. causes to support. friends to help. loved ones to make happy. kids to raise. even businesses to run. whatever. I don't see any need for a god there but that's just me obviously. I can acknowledge myself for what I am without being created by god and loved by god and planned by god. I know that I exist because my parents wanted a child and they are proud of me and they love me and so do my friends and they all do it because I am who I am and that's what I cherish and live for.

I'm not sure where we would be without christian religion and it's really hard to speculate. maybe the same people would have come up with the same ideas of freedom if there was no church to oppress them. the government would have done that on its own pretty effectively I think. it's about the same fight: freedom of thought. if the rules come from the church or the government doesn't matter that much, does it?

I don't know why we western cultures are the 'elite' nowadays. I don't even believe it really. again not superior but simply different. I'm not into being overly proud of myself or my country or my culture or whatever. humility is something I value greatly in a human being, because I think we really don't deserve to act all superior to everyone and everything else. maybe we have more materially because the country we come from has good natural resources and we manged to use them early on and trade and learn and develop.

I'm no history buff and what we learn in history lessons over here in germany greatly varies from what you learn in the US. so we probably have not much common knowledge to draw from, even if I should know more about Luther than you but I really don't. I probably know more about the roman empire than I know about the US but then again maybe not but the focus is a different one at least. we look at the US in a totally different light than you do. we even look at ourself much more from the outside in. it's our way of viewing and dealing with being german and having to live with ancestors that made big mistakes none of us can change and none of the others will ever forget. we simply are not proud to be german anymore because that's what lead to the holocaust. we are tought to be ashamed and we don't really get whatfor because we are new people that have done nothing wrong. so we are a bit cynical and seem to view everyone and everything from the outside. and I think it becomes us, it sure becomes me. I will never own a flag of any country and I will never judge people for what their grandparents did. I'll only frown at them if they are proud of their countries achievements and they know as well as I do how those 'achievements' were obtained. we all have bad history but some of us acknowledge it as such and others gloss it over. having acknowledged your own countries bad history you get to a state of expecting the same from everyone else. so it's good in a way to come from a nation with obvious bad history because you learn early on what to be proud of and what not. personal achievements seem to fall into category one whereas simply being born in a specific country or of a specific race or religion falls into category two.

but again that's not really on topic anymore. I can't really argue what we would be like if we never believed in god because it's just not that easy to tell. believing in god seems to be something 'programed' into human beings or there wouldn't be so many believers. I simply never felt the urge. it appalls me to think there might be a god. "all powerful" is a concept that frightens me no end.

Idefix

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Friday, February 20, 2004 4:22 AM

HRHTHEDUDE

Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
I will never own a flag of any country and I will never judge people for what their grandparents did. I'll only frown at them if they are proud of their countries achievements and they know as well as I do how those 'achievements' were obtained. we all have bad history but some of us acknowledge it as such and others gloss it over. having acknowledged your own countries bad history you get to a state of expecting the same from everyone else. so it's good in a way to come from a nation with obvious bad history because you learn early on what to be proud of and what not. personal achievements seem to fall into category one whereas simply being born in a specific country or of a specific race or religion falls into category two.
Idefix

It's too bad Americans are not taught about the mistakes of our forefathers. I, for one, love my country and my flag, but I am keenly aware of whose backs were broken to build it into what it is. I see the flag as representing the Constitution, not the government, therefore I am proud of it. The U.S. government has done many bad things, several as bad as anything the German government did. The point is to learn from those mistakes, which Americans are not allowed to. The subject of Native Americans is kind of glossed over, as is the subject of slavery. (BTW - the Civil War was not fought to free the slaves, that was just a brilliant military tactic to incite insurrection.) The U.S. helped the U.K. overthrow Iran's democratically elected leader over an oil company, put Sadaam Hussein in power, gave him weapons to gas his own people, then sold weapons to his enemy. Yet we have the nerve to ask, "Why do they hate us?" We have been tinkering with Mideast politics for over 50 years, someone just finally tinkered back. I think the U.S. has a lot to learn from Germany and the rest of the world, especially humility.

Can you believe Ashcroft had the nerve to warn us about the dangers of corruption in the government? Who does he think he works for?

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Friday, February 20, 2004 5:40 AM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
I'm not really sure what to answer. I don't think I (or any other human being) need the 'knowledge' (that is exactly _not_ knowledge but believe) of a god that loves them (and I never saw the christian god as a 'loving' one, much too much hate and violence in the bible for it, too much commandments and too little encouragement to think on your own and decide for yourself) to find out that humans are something other than animals or maschines. I believe us thinking about anything is what makes us different but I don't believe it makes us superior, just different.

Ah, but this is the 21st century. You have to admit that you are a product of 5 thousand years of recorded history and culture, as well as what else came before that. Maybe in today's world, you don't. But what about earlier?

The big reason atheism has its somewhat mainstream status is due to the sucess of the scientific method. But that success would not exist if the Catholic Church had tried to argue against it, and the Aquinine split between practical and revealed knowledge was not created.

And again, there is the idea that the universe is God's creation. We often try to discern the thinking of artists by analysing their artwork. Thinking of the entire verse as one massive kinetic sculpture, means one can divine the thinking of God from observing and learning about how the universe works.

Quote:
I'm not sure where we would be without christian religion and it's really hard to speculate. maybe the same people would have come up with the same ideas of freedom if there was no church to oppress them. the government would have done that on its own pretty effectively I think. it's about the same fight: freedom of thought. if the rules come from the church or the government doesn't matter that much, does it?

Actually I think one can see what the world would be like. At the risk of sounding bigoted, I would like to point out the difference in technical progress between Europe (and America, commonalities in culture here, although there is some problems here in that America had a large contingent of dissenters from European authority) and China, or the Arab world. They've lagged behind Europe technically and in the concept of freedom, well... take a look sometimes.

The idea of freedom is dangerous to a political power structure. And because of that, without some higher authority to appeal to, any government is going to have to stamp out the concept, in order to protect their own phoney balony jobs.

Democracy is highly chaotic and unpredictable. And the wars between Athens and Sparta illustrates the flaws associated with the concept of democracy, how subseptiable it is to a more totalitarian state.

Quote:
I don't know why we western cultures are the 'elite' nowadays. I don't even believe it really. again not superior but simply different. I'm not into being overly proud of myself or my country or my culture or whatever. humility is something I value greatly in a human being, because I think we really don't deserve to act all superior to everyone and everything else. maybe we have more materially because the country we come from has good natural resources and we manged to use them early on and trade and learn and develop.

No, its ideas. Natural resources don't mean anything if you don't get up off your butt and do it. And that includes the most important resource in the verse, that grey stuff between your ears.

And if you don't think you can, or should, for whatever reason, you won't.

What is the difference between Hong Kong, and the rest of China? East and West Germany? North and South Korea? In each case the place with the greater amount of individual freedom has been far more successful by any objective standard, than its counterpart. Hong Kong had nothing in the way of natural resources. It did inherent England's concept of freedom, and that really made all the difference.

Quote:
I will never own a flag of any country and I will never judge people for what their grandparents did. I'll only frown at them if they are proud of their countries achievements and they know as well as I do how those 'achievements' were obtained. we all have bad history but some of us acknowledge it as such and others gloss it over. having acknowledged your own countries bad history you get to a state of expecting the same from everyone else. so it's good in a way to come from a nation with obvious bad history because you learn early on what to be proud of and what not. personal achievements seem to fall into category one whereas simply being born in a specific country or of a specific race or religion falls into category two.

Oh I understand quite well that I am lucky to be born here. But look, I do see this country as different.

I can go anywhere in the world, live the rest of my life there, I will always be an outsider. I will never be a Frenchman, or a German. But anyone can come here and be an American.

Is America perfect? Nope. But then, looking around, in my eyes, its the best there is at present. And that is enough. We ain't gotta be perfect, we just have to be better.

And all in all, taking the bad with the good, I think we got it pretty good over all.

Look, as I mentioned before, I am a pagan. In the local pagan community, there is a lot of anti-Christian bigotry. But the problem is that while Christians did burn pagans many centuries ago, they also came up with the concept of freedom of religion. It is their fault that *I* don't have to sweat that burning at the stake stuff any more.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Friday, February 20, 2004 6:40 AM

DRAKON

Its not that we ain't taught or are ignorant of the sins of our fore fathers. Its just that:

1) we ain't them. We got too many sins of our own to worry about ones we had no hand in committing. They're dead and, if there is a Heaven, well either they are there or not. Either way, we ain't guilty of stuff that happened before we were born.

2) Nothing America has done has been qualitatively worse than what anyone else was doing at the same time, or had done in the past. (And some are still doing today) Peroidic Hun invasions, Religous wars throughout Europe, slavery. You want to compare sins, there are too many other places that have done far worse.

3) All in all, America has been pretty good. You can sit there and chalk off bad things time after time after time, but when you compare it all the good this country has done, well, the balance is on the good side.

4) We've learned from our mistakes in the past. We've grown. We ain't killing indians no more, slavery is done and over. (And yes, the Civil war was about slavery. Look at the Declaration of Secession from the Confederate states. When the Southern states say they are leaving over slavery, well, you gotta believe that such is the case.)

5) And probably most important, a lot of the folks who are trying to remind us how bad we are, seem to have not so hidden agendas. "If those dumb American would only avail themselves of our wise council." etc. Frankly, we don't trust you.

One of the big reasons why Martin Luther King was successful in his bid for civil rights, was his ability to appeal to America's self image, the goodness that Americans saw in themselves and their country. Not by telling them that America suck eggs on toast.

If he had, we would have simply showed him the door. Its a free country, and anyone is free to leave it any time they please.

And there is a difference of outlook or world view apparent here. American is forward looking. We're a young culture, relative to the old nations of, well, the rest of the planet. We are more worried about what to do NOW, and Tomorrow, than all the sins and flaws in yesterdays actions. There is nothing one can do about the past, except learn from it, and move on.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Friday, February 20, 2004 6:52 AM

IDEFIX

I don't think what you talk about and what I talk about are the same things. I talk about a society without believe in god or gods whatsoever and that's as far as I know never been tried because there simply are no nations that are atheist as a whole.

so comparing western cultures to arabic is just comparing christian believe in islam believe. and I think we do better nowadays because we got rid of some of that believe whereas the arabs stick to it with a lot of passion. their believe is what keeps them backwards in a way, isn't it? that was what I wanted to say at least. what we agree on is lack of freedom most often leads to less happyness for the people. that's why germany got reunited 14 years ago.

kommunism tried to discourage religious believe but I think it never really succeeded. I know eastern germans are christian the same as western germans are. maybe even more so just because.

I'm still not really convinced that religion or believe in god is the difference. so natural resources aren't important nowadays but they were important a few hundred years ago. now we live in something called the "age of service/information" or whatever it's called in english. so manpower and ideas seem to be the main assets now. it's true that you can have everything and no motivation do make something out of it and if you just sit on your butt you won't get rich. but is believe in god the only possible motivator for freedom?

and then again maybe getting rich isn't what it's all about for some people. it's a very non-american thought but maybe some poeple are more happy living a more simple live without the strive for wealth and glory. flying to the moon isn't everyones dream. I think what we all have in common is the need to be happy but what that entails is quite different for different people. and so the most precious thing for everyone would be freedom to choose. but having someone else choose for you only stings when that someone chooses something you wouldn't have. so sometimes the majority doesn't rebel because they would have chosen the same way to be happy anyways and that's what makes a government/religion or other system designed to take your freedom away a working one. I'm not sure what believe in god has to do with that concept.

and I know for a fact that I don't know anybody here in germany who thinks america is a better place to live in right now than germany (ok, I know soemone who actually lives over there at the moment and I haven't talked to her in a while but she's coming back this year, so...). we hate our own government with a passion even though the alternative isn't appealing either and the economical situation over here isn't what it should be but we wouldn't want to switch places with you.

me and my friends might talk about going abroad somewhere. maybe the UK, maybe some skandinavien country, australia, wherever, it's just talk mostly. but the USA is really not on the top of the list of anyone I call a friend. and don't ask for reasons because there are too many people that don't want to hear them and I'm really no politics expert either and don't want to fight anyone. it's more a general feeling of not wanting to be part of that nation. not feeling save and comfortable and in good conscience. it's not all our dream to go to the land of endless possibilities and be rich and famous and whatever. we can see the flaws in your society from over here pretty well and sometimes they even outshine the merrits. and sometimes we even believe our own is better.

see it as just a different perspective. be happy with what you have but know that others are happy with what they have too and they don't look up to your country and see the garden of eden. some see the extreme opposit of it. and these some are not all terrorist trying to kill innocent people or fanatics with their eyes blinded by some doctrine. lots of europeans don't want to follow in americas footsteps more than necessary...

...but we still do: we even got reality TV over here nowadays. and we do blame you for it *grin*.

and I really only wanted to say that and not step on anyones toes or get flamed or into any sort of political discussion because I'm a very non-political person. and I don't have the 'arguments' and 'facts' to back up any of my personal opinions anyways so just take it easy please.

Idefix

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Friday, February 20, 2004 11:39 AM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
I don't think what you talk about and what I talk about are the same things. I talk about a society without believe in god or gods whatsoever and that's as far as I know never been tried because there simply are no nations that are atheist as a whole.

Well, here is the thing. The various belief systems, religions as well as more atheistic philosophies, get co-opted by whoever the powers that be are. Local potentates and such. So in one sense I do think looking at the various cultures does at least indicate where things might have gone.

I mean take a look at Plato's Republic. The whole concept of philosopher kings just begs for some strong man to make that plan a reality. While the philosopher may not be king himself, the power behind the throne can be a pretty cushy job. And less apt to get one knocked off.

Each religion has had their hand at political power. Some more obvious and direct than others. But really, what a religion is, is essentially a philosophy, a world view that assumes some divine agency of one type or another. Remove that assumption, what are you left with?

In most instances, morality, politics, economics and social theories. How folks "should" interact with each other.

I see a monopoly of the use of force as inevitable in any conscious social structure. Sooner or later, the guy with the biggest guns takes over, if the system is not set up to prevent it. When that power takes control, he is going to adopt a world view that will ensure he stays in power. Whether you call it "divine right of kings" or something else does not matter that much. Its the effect of the philosophy has on culture and more importantly, his place in the political structure.

Now, some of this is done with the best of intentions, the idea that their philosophy is really better. But the selfish element is still a problem. Lenin may have read every word Marx wrote, and may have believed it with all his heart mind and soul (?), but Marxism still kept him in power.

Quote:
so comparing western cultures to arabic is just comparing christian believe in islam believe. and I think we do better nowadays because we got rid of some of that believe whereas the arabs stick to it with a lot of passion. their believe is what keeps them backwards in a way, isn't it? that was what I wanted to say at least. what we agree on is lack of freedom most often leads to less happyness for the people. that's why germany got reunited 14 years ago.

I think this is a good point. It is the lack of freedom that has held back, not just arabic culture, but also almost all non-western cultures on this rock. It is the presence of government recognized freedom that spurs and encourages risk taking, and cultural and technical advancement, increasing the happiness of the most folks. So the question is, where does this idea of individual freedom and rights come from, especially when it is antithetical to the existing political power structures? How do you create it out of nothing?

A co-worker one time said something that has stuck with me. Sometimes having a wrong answer is better than no answer at all. We can sit here and debate, argue, discuss almost any issue we want. We can disagree about many things. But, unless we come to some kind of agreement, we're stuck. Nothing gets done, because we don't know what to do.

Once you have an answer, even if it is wrong, this moves the process forward. Then one can take actions based on that answer, whereas without one, with disagreement and indecision, nothing happens.

If the answer is wrong, actions taken based on that answer will yeild consequences that were unexpected. Thus showing the answer was wrong. If the answer was right, then the consequences of that action will indicate that as well, as the consequences end up what we did expect.

The concept of God is a great discussion ender. "God says" may not be a logical argument, but then it don't have to be. It provides an answer, which allows you to take actions which result in consequences, that you can then observe. Whether that answer is the result of a long line of critical and logical thinking, or arrived at because some priest said "Well God said it is thus" is irrelevant to the subsequent consequences of that action.

Is this making sense?

Now, without some theological basis, what do you do? Logical arguments can get quite lengthy, and a lot of folks can find loopholes with your argument, question the assumptions or first principles the argument is based on, whatever. Hanging up the decision loop describe above, and freezing the actions of the folks trying to work things out. And this is assuming you know about logic, have discovered it.

Prior to the invention or discovery of logic, all that was there were the priests. And the government power or local strong man (same thing). In a way, the concepts of religion helped create the climate that more rational philosophies sprang up from.

Quote:
I'm still not really convinced that religion or believe in god is the difference. so natural resources aren't important nowadays but they were important a few hundred years ago. now we live in something called the "age of service/information" or whatever it's called in english. so manpower and ideas seem to be the main assets now. it's true that you can have everything and no motivation do make something out of it and if you just sit on your butt you won't get rich. but is believe in god the only possible motivator for freedom?

No. Look, you exist. And you exist as a conscious human being, a life form. You live, you are free, and you will pursue your own happiness. Whether one "should" or should not, and to what extent, (Do you follow your own happiness if it means misery for everyone else?) well, how do you argue that out, in the days prior to logic or philosophy?

Our Declaration of Independence calls this natural human condition "rights", endowed to us by our Creator, whomever and whatever that Creator may be. In short, that settles the argument, because "God said" you have those rights.

Now, one can look at this not quite fully formed concept of individual liberty, and use that, test it, see if it works in the real world. Now that you have the answer, you can act "as if" that answer is true and see what happens. And later on, you can work out how it works logically, independent of any need for a divine intelligence.

Would these concepts be recognized under an atheistic strong man, worried about his grasp on the reins of power? A strong man not beholden to any higher authority, or worried about eternal damnation? I really don't think so.

Quote:
and then again maybe getting rich isn't what it's all about for some people. it's a very non-american thought but maybe some poeple are more happy living a more simple live without the strive for wealth and glory. flying to the moon isn't everyones dream. I think what we all have in common is the need to be happy but what that entails is quite different for different people. and so the most precious thing for everyone would be freedom to choose. but having someone else choose for you only stings when that someone chooses something you wouldn't have. so sometimes the majority doesn't rebel because they would have chosen the same way to be happy anyways and that's what makes a government/religion or other system designed to take your freedom away a working one. I'm not sure what believe in god has to do with that concept.

Well I have attempted to explain how the effects of a religious belief, a belief in God, affected politics as well as the development of the concept of individual freedom, how it served as a check (at least in Western civilization) on some of the more egagarious excesses of warlords and kings. And tried to do it briefly, no really

It provides an answer and ends the debate and disagreement, thus pushing the decision loop along. It puts whoever the local strong man in power under another authority, rather than being an authority unto himself. It creates an environment for the development of logic and more rational explainations, which take more time and mental effort, than simply saying "God says"

Quote:
and I know for a fact that I don't know anybody here in germany who thinks america is a better place to live in right now than germany (ok, I know soemone who actually lives over there at the moment and I haven't talked to her in a while but she's coming back this year, so...). we hate our own government with a passion even though the alternative isn't appealing either and the economical situation over here isn't what it should be but we wouldn't want to switch places with you.

Oh well. You don't have to like it here. You don't have to like America. Different strokes and all that. Plus what you said about what makes different folks happy is different for different folks.

I surely ain't switching.

Quote:
me and my friends might talk about going abroad somewhere. maybe the UK, maybe some skandinavien country, australia, wherever, it's just talk mostly. but the USA is really not on the top of the list of anyone I call a friend. and don't ask for reasons because there are too many people that don't want to hear them and I'm really no politics expert either and don't want to fight anyone. it's more a general feeling of not wanting to be part of that nation. not feeling save and comfortable and in good conscience. it's not all our dream to go to the land of endless possibilities and be rich and famous and whatever. we can see the flaws in your society from over here pretty well and sometimes they even outshine the merrits. and sometimes we even believe our own is better.

For the most part, we're kinda a take it or leave it kinda folks. You don't want to come here, we won't stop you.

We ain't Europe, and I can see how we might be a bit weird and off putting, uncooth, and it can be a bit scary.

Quote:
see it as just a different perspective. be happy with what you have but know that others are happy with what they have too and they don't look up to your country and see the garden of eden. some see the extreme opposit of it. and these some are not all terrorist trying to kill innocent people or fanatics with their eyes blinded by some doctrine. lots of europeans don't want to follow in americas footsteps more than necessary...

Look, like I said before, you don't want to be here, we won't stop you. And we know that not everyone else is a terrorist, or so filled with anti-American bigotry that they want to kill us. As I've said elsewhere, most folks are too wrapped up in our own lives to worry about everyone else.

Its only when some try blowing us up that we get annoyed.

Quote:
...but we still do: we even got reality TV over here nowadays. and we do blame you for it *grin*.{/quote]

HEY. I have NOTHING to do with Reality TV.

That is another thing about freedom that it seems that a lot of folks don't get. Sometimes respecting the freedom of others mean putting up with them doing things you don't like. Like inventing reality tv.

Quote:
and I really only wanted to say that and not step on anyones toes or get flamed or into any sort of political discussion because I'm a very non-political person. and I don't have the 'arguments' and 'facts' to back up any of my personal opinions anyways so just take it easy please.

Idefix

Grin, well, I can be long winded, but try to avoid flame wars and such. I, well, can't say I have taken it easy, just being me.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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