There's a Hole in the World by Steve580

ANGELUS ARCANUM

There's a Hole in the World

POSTED BY: STEVE580
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 9, 2004 01:48
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 14775
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Wednesday, February 25, 2004 7:20 PM

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Arg! Thar be spoilers here.
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Spoilers, dammit!
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I'm not kidding. If you haven't seen this episode yet, don't scroll down any further!
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Select to view spoiler:

A cliffhanger? Boo...

Ah well. so, what are yall's thoughts? Is Fred dead? Doesn't seem liike a great decision to me; to kill of a charactor, with only a handful of episodes left anyways. Plus, she's the only female lead left! She goes, it's just a bunch of guys.

I liked the Nightmare Before Christmas referance. And Spike, when he asked the guy all the questions...that was pretty cool, too.

And hey, how 'bout the whole 'Gunn is responsible for Fred's death' thing? Pretty cool, eh? And I always knew that one mofo was evil.

-Steve

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Wednesday, February 25, 2004 7:23 PM

KINGOFKOINS

I liked how Joss connected what I originally assumed was merely there for a lahugh into the greater theme of the episode.

--------------------------------
It's sickening how comforting the privacy of the mind can be.
"Bible's broken; contradictions, false logistics. Doesn't make sense." - River
http://stripe.filetap.com

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Wednesday, February 25, 2004 7:39 PM

TALONPEST

Why not kill off a character with only a few episodes left to go? Hell, Joss may kill off more before he's through- I'm thinking Gunn is on his way out too. I mean, even though this wasn't concieved as the end of the series, when was the last time the cast didn't change a bit towards the end of a season?

Knox going evil was pretty good, though it'd have been nice to hear how he beat Lorne's reading. Also it didn't make much sense when he questioned the delivery guys when no one else was in the room.

Did anyone else think Uru-kai when those guardian guys attacked Angel and Spike? They even had the same kinda swords.

I liked Fred's last words: "Why can't I stay?"

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Wednesday, February 25, 2004 7:46 PM

AERRIN

Quote:
Originally posted by Talonpest:
Why not kill off a character with only a few episodes left to go? Hell, Joss may kill off more before he's through- I'm thinking Gunn is on his way out too. I mean, even though this wasn't concieved as the end of the series, when was the last time the cast didn't change a bit towards the end of a season?

Knox going evil was pretty good, though it'd have been nice to hear how he beat Lorne's reading. Also it didn't make much sense when he questioned the delivery guys when no one else was in the room.

Did anyone else think Uru-kai when those guardian guys attacked Angel and Spike? They even had the same kinda swords.

I liked Fred's last words: "Why can't I stay?"

Sniffle. I agree that it was very Joss-like to be willing to kill a character, or to play with the notion of gone-but-not-gone - and I could very well see a few more of the gang going before the season is up.

As for Knox questioning the delivery guy - I can fanwank that one away by talking about the security there was no doubt in place, watching - although he was awful quick to slip up in his 'by the way, I did this' thing.

Fred had several really heart-rending lines tonight. That one was excellent. I also adored 'I walk with heroes'.

Sigh. Sniffle. Sob.

The alliteration of pain.

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Wednesday, February 25, 2004 7:47 PM

SUCCATASH

Fred's not dead, she's a super sexy mummy god.
????

I really enjoyed the episode. Angel is the only show on TV I make sure I watch.

On a side note, just before Prime Time in my cable area, FX is showing 2 hour blocks of Buffy every weeknight, and they are rushing through the seasons. 2 eps every weeknight is like one season every 2-3 weeks. That's fun as well.

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Wednesday, February 25, 2004 8:03 PM

SHINY

I got a chance to watch Angel for pretty much the first time tonight...so how many more episodes before the end of this series?

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Wednesday, February 25, 2004 8:13 PM

AERRIN

This is episode 15 out of 22. And then.. no more Angel. For the WB is inching its way up there with FOX.

At least they gave us 5 seasons. But dude, I think tonight showed they need a sixth!

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Wednesday, February 25, 2004 8:13 PM

SLOWSMURF

Assuming 22 ep season, only 7 left I think.

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Wednesday, February 25, 2004 9:04 PM

INSANESPIKE

I thought tonights episode was great. Heart-wrenching for sure, but still a tremendous show. The ending scenes with Fred and Wes were very hard to watch, but they all just proved what tremendous actors Alexis Denisof and Amy Acker are.

As for Fred being PERMANENTLY dead....I really hope not! I know it it would be very much like Joss to kill one of the major characters off, but I really don't think he'll do it this time. They'll find a way to rid her body of Illyria, and get Fred back. I'm still curious to see where this part of the storyline arc is going to go though.

And also, one last thing. Am I the only one that really can't see Wes and Fred together? Even as heart-wrenching as the final scenes were, I just can't see those two as a couple! But then again, maybe that's just me.

"How drunk was I last night?"

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Wednesday, February 25, 2004 9:40 PM

DESERTDRAGON

I also liked Wes reading "The Little Princess" to her. I am a little late in coming into Angel; is that an earlier Fred reference?

~Misty

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Wednesday, February 25, 2004 10:18 PM

SLOWSMURF

Not that I'm aware of...the only close reference I can think of ATM is cordelia becoming a princess in the demension fred was trapped in for 5 odd years.

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Wednesday, February 25, 2004 10:29 PM

SLOWSMURF

Oh and yeah, gotta say my favorite momment was "Not everyone can work on the burkholder case"
*Wesley shoots him*
"Send anyone else who isn't working on the burkholder case to my office"

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Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:14 PM

Just started reading the first post here, and I'm guessing it's an Angel spoiler for those of us in the UK (damn!

), so I'll just take my leave now....

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Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:27 PM

11THHOUR

MY POST HAS LOTS OF SPOILERS!! PLEASE DON'T READ IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THE EPISODE.

Quote:
Originally posted by InsaneSpike:
I thought tonights episode was great. Heart-wrenching for sure, but still a tremendous show. The ending scenes with Fred and Wes were very hard to watch, but they all just proved what tremendous actors Alexis Denisof and Amy Acker are.

Absolutely! Amy Acker was so powerful and heart breaking. She made achingly real the terrible pain of a gentle hearted, yet strong willed young woman fighting the good fight... and gradually realizing that this time, she wasn't going to win. The fear, confusion and pain were intense, but never over played.

Alexis Denisof was so moving as he stayed with her, and did everything he could to comfort her, and share his strength. Wesley is a man out of his time. He is of the age of Chivalry and in his heart he strives to do the noble thing. When he finally 'won' his lady, it was for an all too brief moment. But he showed his loyal and loving heart by never leaving her during the very worst for her. He showed more love and devotion in such a very short time, than most people ever show in their lifetimes.

Quote:
As for Fred being PERMANENTLY dead....I really hope not! I know it it would be very much like Joss to kill one of the major characters off, but I really don't think he'll do it this time. They'll find a way to rid her body of Illyria, and get Fred back. I'm still curious to see where this part of the storyline arc is going to go though.

I'd also hate to see Fred 'gone gone'. I avoid spoilers at all costs and don't want to know what the plans are for Fred by season's end. I would like to see her brought back somehow, and in the Whedonverse, anything is possible. Wesley deserves the love for whom he has waited so long... and Fred doesn't want to leave yet...

Quote:
And also, one last thing. Am I the only one that really can't see Wes and Fred together? Even as heart-wrenching as the final scenes were, I just can't see those two as a couple! But then again, maybe that's just me.

As much as I've posted around these here parts about how I don't buy 'Angel and Wolf Girl'... I do buy Fred and Wesley. They are both extraordinarily smart people, though Fred is probably a wee bit smarter. They both love 'nerdy' type things and they can make each other laugh. Also, they are both a bit socially maladroit. And although that causes awkwardness with the general world, it's a personality trait they both share, and they grok each other.

I think they are both so sweet and tender with each other... and funny. For me, Fred and Wesley are a very believable and natural couple.

This was an awesome episode. I have satellite TV and get three separate Angel 'feeds'. I can watch at 6, 7 and 9 p.m. And I did.

I also cried like crazy each time.

11thHour

__________________________________________________________

"Doing the impossible makes us mighty." - Malcolm Reynolds

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Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:46 PM

11THHOUR

Steve580:

Seems as though a UK fan read the first post on this thread and then discovered, too late, the Angel MAJOR spoilers.

Perhaps you should edit your first post to insert a spoiler warning and 'safety area' for folks who haven't seen the ep, and want to be surprised. That way they can make an exit unscathed...

I know I would have hated to know ahead of time what happened on this Angel installment!

11thHour

__________________________________________________________

"Doing the impossible makes us mighty." - Malcolm Reynolds

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 12:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 11thHour:
Steve580:

Seems as though a UK fan read the first post on this thread and then discovered, too late, the Angel MAJOR spoilers.

Perhaps you should edit your first post to insert a spoiler warning and 'safety area' for folks who haven't seen the ep, and want to be surprised. That way they can make an exit unscathed...

I know I would have hated to know ahead of time what happened on this Angel installment!

11thHour

__________________________________________________________

"Doing the impossible makes us mighty." - Malcolm Reynolds

I think I escaped most (although maybe not the worst) of it - averting my eyes as soon as I realised it was an Angel thread (then high-speed scrolling to get back here!). Still, with any luck I'll have forgotten all about it by the time they get round to showing that ep over here!

But yeah, the idea of spoiler warnings for those of us on this cold northern island is a very thoughtful suggestion, ta!

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 1:11 AM

WINTERFELL

My personally hats off to Joss and Andy Hallet.. they FINALLY wrote an episode where his character had some meaning!!! They did a GREAT job with the whole of the ensemble.. everyone got screen time and it was all done well and tastefully. I hail them!

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 3:03 AM

SERENITYVALLEY

I can't believe no one has mentioned the song Eve sang!!!!!!! Did no one catch it or did no one care?! "Pretty as a picture. She is like the golden ring" Doesn't that sound a tad familier? "circles me with love and laughter. I can't feel a thing. Sky's gonna open, people gonna pray and crawl. Gonna rain down in fire. Gonna burn us all..." No one remembers Lindsey singing that in DEAD END when he finally got his strumming hand back? That's the song Lindsey sang in the Lorne's bar and let's face it. The rain down in fire part came true! Maybe the rest will too. Maybe it's about Fred.

Poor Knox.

http://www.simple-assault.com/Firefly.htm

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 3:31 AM

WINTERFELL

Quote:
Did no one catch it or did no one care?!

I noticed, just didn't care.

I was just glad we got to see her all pathetic and disheveled and that Lorne Punched that b*tch.

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 3:47 AM

CECIL

How bout the look on Lorne's face when Fred started to sing? I dont think he looked like that because he knew she was gonna fall, I think he looked like that because he knew what was really gonna happen to her. Why else would he pray? Just my thoughts.

MAL
"Nice shot."
JAYNE
(slurred)
"I was aiming for his head"

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 3:55 AM

THALOS

More possible spoilers, read at your own risk!

I got the very distinct feeling that Wolfram and Hart is getting the better of Angel Inc. and what I mean is that it is gradually turning them evil. Gunn is pretty self explanitory, but when I saw him hit Knox the second time it reminded me of the scene in "Serenity" when Dobbs, after knocking the Shepard out, then hit him again. And then with Wesley, yes I understand that he wants everyone working on Fred's case, but isn't shooting the guy a bit counter productive and in fact very much a thing Lindsey or Lila did to associates in an earlier season. I think these might play a role in future episodes.

Back to Fred. Didn't Angel say that the doctors told him that her organs were "heating up" and that they would liquify in 24 hours? As much as anything is possible in the Whedonverse, I think that Fred as we knew her is dead.

"Whoa, good Bible."

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 4:04 AM

KALATHENA

Great acting in this episode.

I've kinda been waiting for Knox to turn out evil for a while, but wasn't entirely sure. I thought he was going to turn out to be working with Lindsey, though.

Unfortunately, this episode had a definite end-of-sweeps gut-wrencher-to-get-ratings feel to it for me.

And I know I'll get jumped on for this, but oh. i'm so surprised. a good guy got turned into something evil. how original. joss has never done that before.

I think I know why the WB canned it. They read the ending of this episode.

I'll still be watching to see Spike, but there's really nothing left to talk about with this series. Same old, same old. See ya.

--Kala

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 4:51 AM

KNIBBLET

The best part of the episode was Lorne dealing with Eve. I've never seen Lorne in that light before and honey, he rocks.

As for Gunn hitting the creep several times with the blunt object - Don't blame him a bit.

Spike going off in the tunnel was a fabu moment. Who is the goaltender for Manchester United? They were my favorite team when I was stationed in England. (yes, my husband calls me a 'goon' because of that).

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 5:08 AM

WINTERFELL

the spike/angel hand-holding-orc-clothes lining thing was awesome...

kinda hard to believe nither of them had been on planes before.. but i guess it's cause of the necro-glass thing..

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 8:00 AM

KURUKAMI

Quote:
11thHour wrote:
I'd also hate to see Fred 'gone gone'. I avoid spoilers at all costs and don't want to know what the plans are for Fred by season's end. I would like to see her brought back somehow, and in the Whedonverse, anything is possible. Wesley deserves the love for whom he has waited so long... and Fred doesn't want to leave yet...

Despite not wanting to see it, my money's on Fred being gone for good. Throughout the course of Angel, Wesley's been the one that the worst stuff happens to.

Getting fired by Angel.

Getting shot in the stomach.

Being forced to choose between Angel and the child.

Getting his throat cut.

Having to chop the recently deceased Lilah's head off.

Symbolically shooting his "father" after that individual threatened Fred.

And now, after his long-suffering wish to start a relationship with Fred, having it shattered after a brief moment of happiness.

Always, Wes is being dragged more and more towards becoming a dark, tormented soul. My guess is that Fred won't be coming back even though the actress may remain, and that Wes will continue his descent into cynicism and despair. The weird thing is that it's almost the opposite of the journey that Angel and Spike are trying to make...

History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 8:26 AM

STILLSHINY

Cavemen! that's the real answer to it all.

I loved it. Joss is awesome. & Nox (aka tracey) screwed up again. When you can't walk ya crawl & when ya cant do that anymore you invite some ancient demon goddess to take over the body of the coworker who doesn't love you.

I'll be sad to see this all end. Spike was awesome. & Yes the baddies were very LOTR, and that's ok by me.

lotsa good lines & great subplots. Joss Rocks!!!
Networks suck!

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." --Joss

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 8:37 AM

WERESPAZ

Hard transistion after the muppet episode, but good none-the-less.

Is it bad of me to think that new demon-Fred looks way hot?

Anyone notice it was Paul Atretis from the Sci-Fi channel's Dune mini-series that played the keeper of the "Hole"?

-The SpAz

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 10:57 AM

YORICK28

So this is what I'm thinking, now that I've recovered a few pieces of the heart that Joss ripped out of me last night (and all my speculation is just that--I've seen nothing indicating how or even if Fred comes back).

I know that Angel talked about liquified organs and all that, but both my brother and I felt that Fred's story, as opposed to Illyria's, is not done. We just didn't get that same sense of closure we've felt after other deaths on both Buffyverse shows: Tara felt finished, Jenny felt finished, Lilah felt finished, Cordy felt finished. But somehow, Fred doesn't.

I was also thinking about how determined Fred was to keep fighting, how insistent she was that she wasn't going to leave. And then it occurred to me: what if she's doing what we've seen her do so many times in the past--using misdirection. When handed a crossbow in Caritas, she pretended she might shoot Angel only to turn the weapon on one of their attackers. When Wesley stalked her under Billy's influence, she led him into a situation where he believed he'd won only to discover she'd laid a trap. Ditto with Jasmine. Throughout her tenure on this show, Fred has always been very good at taking advantage of being underestimated by others.

So what if Fred created a mental version of her Pylean cave for herself, deep in her mind, and only made Illyria believe she'd given up the ghost? (don't ask me how--I haven't quite worked all that out) And now she's just waiting for Illyria to give her an opening to take her body back? Not only would it reflect her own past behavior, but it ties in to the book Wes read her, as "The Little Princess" is (as I understand it) about a girl who retreats into her imagination and looks to her own inner strength to survive a terrible turn of events. Such an ending would also be the one way Joss et al haven't used to resolve one of these "bad guy taking over one of the heroes" situations: having the person save themself.

Yes, I'm sure all this is wishful thinking. But I'm absolutely with those wanting to see Fred come back. Losing her on top of all the other losses the Fang Gang has suffered, particularly when it comes to Wes and Angel, would almost make the show too dark to bear.

Life sucks enough, Joss. Give us a little light here to hold on to, will ya? Please?

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 11:26 AM

DTT

Maybe it was just me, but I saw a lot of Firefly in this episode. Sometimes, it felt almost as if parts of scripts had been borrowed. Made me think of Kaylee in the hospital bed (Mal, too, for that matter). Also, they had some camera work that reminded me of FF. And of course there was the whole Knox turning out to be a jerk thing. No surprise to me, just an observation.

"You didn't have to wound that man."
"Yeah, I know. It was just funny."

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 12:23 PM

INSANESPIKE

Quote:
I know that Angel talked about liquified organs and all that, but both my brother and I felt that Fred's story, as opposed to Illyria's, is not done. We just didn't get that same sense of closure we've felt after other deaths on both Buffyverse shows: Tara felt finished, Jenny felt finished, Lilah felt finished, Cordy felt finished. But somehow, Fred doesn't.

Exactly what I was thinking. This is the main reason why I belive that Joss still has something in store for bringing Fred back.

Quote:
So what if Fred created a mental version of her Pylean cave for herself, deep in her mind, and only made Illyria believe she'd given up the ghost?

Very intrestign way to explain things. I never would have thought of it myself, but I like it. And it definitely fits Fred's character as you've said. Hopefully Joss is thinking the saw way as you

Quote:
I got the very distinct feeling that Wolfram and Hart is getting the better of Angel Inc. and what I mean is that it is gradually turning them evil.

This is defnitely how things are looking right now. And honestly, if this really does end up being the shows last season, I can see why Joss would do it this way. Wolfram & Hart can seemingly get the better of the group by turning them all against each other, but in the end, everyone will realize what's going on, and turn on Wolfram $ Hart. What better way to end the series than by having the gang destroy the one thing that they've been trying to stop since season 1?

And also, one more thing I forgot to mention in my earler post was the scene with everyone togehter in the lobby after they left Fred's room. I absolutely loved that scene. It was amazing to see just how much togetherness Fred has instilled in the group. It was enough to even make Spike and Angel work toegher without complaining! Now that takes a special kind of woman! lol

"How drunk was I last night?"

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 1:29 PM

ZELDA

Wow - this is my favorite theory ever! Whether or not it turns out, it would add wonderful weight to al lot of Fred's statements about not being the damsel in distress, etc.

I also wonder if Fred was the first to fall out of the new W&H crew because she was the one most easily capable of doing good with her new situation. My fiance and I were having a discussion about the fact that science is so much harder to corrupt than law, for example. You can lie about the results, you can suppress it, you can ignore parts of it, but the doing of science is relatively straightforward. You don't get into the morality of it until science is applied to the real world.

Whereas law is all sticky implications, shades of grey and teeny-tiny ethical questions at every step. Therefore, even if you intend to do good with law, you can inadvertently get corrupted a lot quicker than you realize. Thus Fred has been the most useful, most balanced of the team this year. And Gunn is ethically the most shady.

As my fiance said: "Fred's building laser guns and handing them to other people. Gunn's pulling the trigger every time he takes any sort of action."

I don't know if that makes any sense at all...

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 1:35 PM

CAPTAINTIGHTPANTS

I agree with you about the scene in the lobby. And when she woke up and said "all my boys". Fred is the only one that ever seemed to touch all of the people around her. Cordy was never able to connect with all of those around her. She was too self-involved. The Fang Gang need Fred more than they ever needed anyone else, even Buffy.

You're gonna come with us...

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 1:35 PM

CAPTAINTIGHTPANTS

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 2:07 PM

Quote:
And I know I'll get jumped on for this, but oh. i'm so surprised. a good guy got turned into something evil. how original. joss has never done that before.

I've been thinking about this a lot, because on the surface it bothered me a little bit two. But I've come to the conclusion that this is something quite different from past episodes.

Consider this: In Buffy Willow chose to become evil. She was the person doing the evil, of her own free will (and no, I don't subscribe to the belief that 'the magic made her do it', you always have a choice). Fred is dead. She has nothing to do with that demon other then the shell of her body that has been utterly hollowed out. She isn't making any of the choices, because she is no longer even there.

Then you have Cordy in last Season. In this case you have someone being possesed by something evil. Once again, different. Cordy wasn't dead. Fred is. In a way its the same, as Fred's corpse is being possesed, but her personality is gone--Cordy's never was completely.

The final instance of a character turning evil is obviously Angel himself. But here his evil is about control of impulse being taken away. What happens to you when you have no concience? That is Angelus at the core--he's Angel's darkest elements taking over.

My point with all this is that each of these instances are fundamentaly different. They all look at a different aspect of drama and character. Each tested both the audience and the characters in different ways--and I think you shouldn't count it out.

As a completely side note to those of you hatching up schemes for keeping Fred alive. I'm with you in not completely wanting Fred to be dead, but I think the episode looses all its weight if she turns out to come back in some way. Her character has completed its arc in many ways. But even more there are very strong hints that Fred is dead, including various statements throughout the episode--the most damning of which implies that she no longer has any organs, and is essintally a hollow shell. Does that mean there is no way for her to come back? No, this is a Joss Whedon show. Anything could happen. But at the very least if Fred comes back her body is gone--so it would have to be in the form of a ghost/robot/I have no clue. Seems most likely though, that she will stay dead.

"A moment contains so many fragile things. Its a wonder we are able to keep any of them alive later."

-Jonathan Carroll, White Apples-

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 2:36 PM

STEVE580

Quote:
Originally posted by 11thHour:
Steve580:

Seems as though a UK fan read the first post on this thread and then discovered, too late, the Angel MAJOR spoilers.

Perhaps you should edit your first post to insert a spoiler warning and 'safety area' for folks who haven't seen the ep, and want to be surprised. That way they can make an exit unscathed...

I know I would have hated to know ahead of time what happened on this Angel installment!

Agh! Sorry...
See, I contemplated a spoiler box; but I figured people who hadn't yet seen the ep would avoid clicking on a thread sharing its title. It (stupidly) never occured to me that someone might not know what the show was called yet...
It's spoiler-proofed now though...heh, heh...sorry.
-Steve

*edit* - It's spoiler proof now

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 2:42 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Perhaps the series finale will end with floating and glowing fiqures of Fred and Cordy come to say goodbye...

" Not this girl, Not this day ! "

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 7:15 PM

NICKTESLA

Quote:
As for Fred being PERMANENTLY dead....I really hope not! I know it it would be very much like Joss to kill one of the major characters off, but I really don't think he'll do it this time. They'll find a way to rid her body of Illyria, and get Fred back.

During Buffy's final season, I recall the contract troubles ME had getting the actress who played Tara, whose character died near the end of season six, back to reprise her role.

Ultimately, they could not reach an agreement and she did not appear.

As Joss apparently planned it, the First would appear in Tara's form, with the predictably emotional reaction from Willow and the rest of the Scoobies.

But there was more; it was evidently Joss' plan to bring Tara back to life somehow in the final episode, which would've been...amazing.

Am I the only one who gets sad seeing her again in Once More, With Feeling?

Is it possible Joss is thinking of using that idea--take Fred away, seemingly irrevocably, then return her in the final episode?

Talk amongst yourselves.

Nick Tesla
Tesla-PC/NYC
http://tesla-pc.com
Computing that makes sense.

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 7:59 PM

11THHOUR

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurukami:
Despite not wanting to see it, my money's on Fred being gone for good. Throughout the course of Angel, Wesley's been the one that the worst stuff happens to.

Oh yeah... poor Wes. He has had a lot of bad luck and misery over the years. Me thinks Joss gets evil pleasure out of punishing our proper young Brit.

Quote:
Always, Wes is being dragged more and more towards becoming a dark, tormented soul. My guess is that Fred won't be coming back even though the actress may remain, and that Wes will continue his descent into cynicism and despair. The weird thing is that it's almost the opposite of the journey that Angel and Spike are trying to make...

Interesting point. Gee... Lord help everyone if Wesley ever gets 'vamped'! I think he could end up being worse than Angel or Spike ever were. He's been holding back his whole life, plus he's got the magic thing goin' on... whoa, scary.

Anyway... Fred's death could either mean that it's going to keep being 'business as usual' as far as Wesley's luck goes (Fred's dead, deal with it). Or... something really, really wonderful will happen and she will be restored. Finally something for him to balance out all the crap.

Time will tell...

11thHour

__________________________________________________________

"Doing the impossible makes us mighty." - Malcolm Reynolds

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 8:02 PM

11THHOUR

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:
Agh! Sorry...
See, I contemplated a spoiler box; but I figured people who hadn't yet seen the ep would avoid clicking on a thread sharing its title. It (stupidly) never occured to me that someone might not know what the show was called yet...
It's spoiler-proofed now though...heh, heh...sorry.
-Steve

*edit* - It's spoiler proof now

Very impressive spoiler proofing job!

If anyone ignores all those warnings and lead-ins, then they get what's comin' to 'em!

11thHour

__________________________________________________________

"Doing the impossible makes us mighty." - Malcolm Reynolds

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Friday, February 27, 2004 9:52 PM

STEVE580

Quote:
Very impressive spoiler proofing job!

Thanks, thanks...

Was Tara really supposed to come back? Seriously? Aw man. That's so cool! So Joss really does care about his charactors! He death is always the one that troubled me the most.
-Steve

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Saturday, February 28, 2004 11:21 PM

11THHOUR

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:Was Tara really supposed to come back? Seriously? Aw man. That's so cool! So Joss really does care about his charactors! He death is always the one that troubled me the most.
-Steve

Yes. Joss stated specifically in an interview that he had intended to bring Tara back. He had even planned out how it would happen, and that it would be very powerful. But Amber Benson was adamant about not reprising the Tara role. So... Tara stayed dead.

I'm thinkin' that maybe the unrealized plan to bring back Tara might find its expression with Fred. As much as it is possible that we'll just have to deal with a beloved character dying, and staying dead... there's still hope. I think there is a far more interesting and deep opportunity for storytelling by finding a way to restore Fred, and how that would affect all the other characters, i.e. "her guys".

Joss is, after all, a born storyteller...

11thHour

__________________________________________________________

"Doing the impossible makes us mighty." - Malcolm Reynolds

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Monday, March 1, 2004 6:25 AM

STEVE580

Quote:
Yes. Joss stated specifically in an interview that he had intended to bring Tara back. He had even planned out how it would happen, and that it would be very powerful.

Aw, that is very cool.

As for Fred - Joss never told anyone specifically how Tara was to come back, right? If he hasn'nt, than it would make sense to use the same method to revive Fred.
-Steve

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Monday, March 1, 2004 6:54 AM

BRTICK

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:
Quote:
Yes. Joss stated specifically in an interview that he had intended to bring Tara back. He had even planned out how it would happen, and that it would be very powerful.

Aw, that is very cool.

As for Fred - Joss never told anyone specifically how Tara was to come back, right? If he hasn'nt, than it would make sense to use the same method to revive Fred.
-Steve

Tara was supposed to return in the season 7 episode "Conversations With Dead People" a The First. but Amber Benson turned it down and they used Cassie instead.

Keep Flying!

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Monday, March 1, 2004 10:04 AM

KURUKAMI

Actually, from all that I'd heard, Amber Benson was to come back only as a shell for the First -- not as Tara, come back to life, or the ghost of Tara. Amber turned down the appearance because she thought that doing it would be totally disrespectful to the character and to the fans.

Besides, this way it seems more that the First doesn't have absolute power -- or that, due to powerful love and mystical bond that Willow and Tara shared, the First could not insinuate itself in that way.

Regardless, I really doubt that the character of "Fred" is going to be back. Jenny Calendar's still dead as well, remember?

Hmmm... maybe it's a "kill the loves of the British guys on the show" thing.

History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.

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Monday, March 1, 2004 11:40 AM

OKKAY

I don't think you can compare what happened to Fred with what happened to Jenny Calendar. Fred is a series regular, and Jenny Calendar was a guest star.

I think Fred would have been back eventually (maybe in the now cancelled 6th season), because of a couple things:

1) Joss had described this as being a "setback" for Fred. In the Buffyverse, death is only a "setback", no one is ever completely dead. But it does seem to leave open the possibility that Fred would have come back eventually.

2) spoiler if you haven't seen the promo for this week's episode

Select to view spoiler:

In the promo for this week's upcoming episode, I think they mentioned that Illyria could control time or something like that. If so, that could be a rather convenient way of eventually bringing Fred back from the dead.

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Monday, March 1, 2004 2:53 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Select to view spoiler:

In the promo for this week's upcoming episode, I think they mentioned that Illyria could control time or something like that.

Perhaps Angel goes back to when he made the Wolfram and Hart deal, and undoes it ...

" Thats not fair !!!!
I didn't even have a soul when I did that!"

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Monday, March 1, 2004 2:53 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Select to view spoiler:

" Thats not fair !!!!
I didn't even have a soul when I did that!"

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Tuesday, March 2, 2004 3:21 AM

DRAKON

For some reason the sage words of Red Drawf keep coming back to mind.

"Death is not the handicap it used to be" This is true of any Joss show.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Tuesday, March 2, 2004 6:34 AM

LISSA

Quote:
Originally posted by Drakon:
For some reason the sage words of Red Drawf keep coming back to mind.

"Death is not the handicap it used to be" This is true of any Joss show.

"Give quiche a chance" also seems to apply. err...

~lissa, spwhore

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Tuesday, March 2, 2004 8:20 AM

KURUKAMI

Strangely, that might explain rumors of Vincent Kartheiser's presence in-series later this season.

History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.

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Tuesday, March 2, 2004 2:52 PM

LISSA

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurukami:
rumors of Vincent Kartheiser's presence in-series later this season.

i didn't really want to know that, but it makes me very happy! i've had this strange fixation on vincent ever since his monologue in peace out (i had only been watching the new eps since i finished my season 1 dvds in february. on dont get wb so i have to get people to tape for me). yummy. and now, let the connor bashing begin...lol

~lissa, spwhore

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