RE: by ECAmber

ANGELUS ARCANUM

RE:

POSTED BY: ECAMBER
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 15:16
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 10016
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Thursday, July 5, 2007 4:25 PM

Not because he wanted to be a victim, acted like a victim or had a victim mentality... but because he got screwed time and time again and NEVER got paid back karmicly (not a word, I know).

Just take a look at all the ways he got screwed over:

~ had a massive crush on Cordelia that was returned and it ended up fizzing out in under 5 seconds
~ was pretty much a pansy at fighting from Buffy to the second season of Angel
~ got fired for circumstances out of his control and was basically accepted (initially) for being a pathetic loner who didn't really want to be alone
~ fell in love with the girl who was perfect for him and then tried to kill her in a magically induced misogynistic rage... which completely ruined his ability to take a chance with her
~ was abandoned by his friends for doing something for a really goddamn good reason (yeah, it backfired, but seriously if it hadn't he would have been a hero. and it didn't backfire because of something he did).
~ made all the hard choices and took all the consequences without once being a whiny bitch even though no one acknowledged or thanked him for his sacrifices (no one at Angel Inc thanked him for feeding Angel after being the one dedicated to actually finding him)
~ was so nonjudgmentl and respected people so much that he would help them do something, even if he disagreed with it (like helping Fred kill her professor) and then get absolutely no acknowledgment that he did anything (if anything he was even more estranged because of it)
~ got all of a whopping 20 minutes (air time) with the love of his life before she was taken utterly away (seriously, did he even get a single night of sin with her?)
~ died before actually accomplishing his mission (Illyria did it for him)

Seriously, Wesley deserved a hell of a lot less crap than he got and not once did he ever really get something but grief and pain for doing what he thought was best.

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Friday, July 6, 2007 4:51 AM

DEEPGIRL187

Agree with you for the most point there. On the other hand, look at the things that Wesley did accomplish. Yes, he started out as a bit of a whiny prat at first, but look at the man he became. A confident, brave man, willing to make hard decisions for the good of all. Yes, Wesley did get shafted more than a few times, but he became a better person for it.

******************************************************

"Right! Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!"

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Friday, July 6, 2007 6:53 AM

NEEDY

The road to Hel is paved with good intentions

All of your points are right on the mark, and funnily enough, I think you've summed up all the reasons why Wesley was my favourite character. There never was a character that displayed the shades of grey more than Wesley.
His journey was tragic but I think his reward, as small as it may seem, was knowing that he had gone through a hell of a lot, had hit rock bottom a few times, but came back from the brink, fought the good fight and in the end died a hero.
Might not seem like much, but Joss never likes any of his characters to have perfect happiness (unless its gonna end up losing someone their soul so that they can wreak more havoc)

I'm just reminded of something Angel said to Kate in Epiphany, that "if nothing that we do matters, then all that matters is what we do"

I think Wesley would have saw some victory in knowing that despite everything, he came out of it a hero (albeit not a surviving one)

-----
Needy. Male Companion: Chosen One?
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Friday, July 6, 2007 8:50 AM

MALBADINLATIN

Quote:
Originally posted by NEEDY:
but came back from the brink, fought the good fight and in the end died a hero.

As a newcomer to Angel...pretty much watching the TNT reruns and seein it for the first time...I'd like to say "Not him too!" Do any of the people who aren't already dead survive this show fer christs sake!? Wait! don't answer that.

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

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Friday, July 6, 2007 10:44 AM

NEEDY

The road to Hel is paved with good intentions

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Quote:
Originally posted by NEEDY:
but came back from the brink, fought the good fight and in the end died a hero.

As a newcomer to Angel...pretty much watching the TNT reruns and seein it for the first time...I'd like to say "Not him too!" Do any of the people who aren't already dead survive this show fer christs sake!? Wait! don't answer that.

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

Sorry if I spoiled it for you, but I didnt bother using spoiler space cos his death was already mentioned in the opening post

If its any consolation, his death is not like... I was gonna compare it to other Whedon shows, but I dont want to throw out other spoilers.
Lets put it this way, he gets a decent death.
As for who else bites the bullet...
Me not saying!

-----
Needy. Male Companion: Chosen One?
-----
www.myspace.com/needsalt
http://needsalt.livejournal.com/
www.myspace.com/dicksquinty The World's Greatest Detective?

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Saturday, July 7, 2007 3:39 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Quote:
Originally posted by NEEDY:
but came back from the brink, fought the good fight and in the end died a hero.

As a newcomer to Angel...pretty much watching the TNT reruns and seein it for the first time...I'd like to say "Not him too!" Do any of the people who aren't already dead survive this show fer christs sake!? Wait! don't answer that.

Welcome to the 'verse that is Whedon. One thing I've come to learn, the hard way, is summed up by the man himself, Joss.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy.

Watch, enjoy and fall in love w/ Joss's characters at your own peril.

As for Wesley, I didn't think it was he who had helped Fred off her professor. I recall it was Gunn, and that led to their eventual split.

Wes's hooking up w/ Lilah was a pretty good trade off after having been isolated and abandoned by his friends.

( Granted, he never got to 'know' Fred, which really sums up the theme of this thread )

And then there was the satisfaction of capturing and 'keeping' Justine locked up in a closet. Perhaps Wesley's best line ever... " I'll take away your bucket. " Friggin classic!

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, July 7, 2007 8:40 AM

COPILOT

When Joss likes an actor he tortures their character. At least I think I remember reading that somewhere. Love he has lots of love.

An I carried such a torch

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Saturday, July 7, 2007 3:00 PM

ECAMBER

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
As for Wesley, I didn't think it was he who had helped Fred off her professor. I recall it was Gunn, and that led to their eventual split.

Just thinking of how Fred went to Wesley for help with finding "vengence," how he was the one that got her a plan (the crossbow and portal) and drove her there, even offering to come in as support. She wanted to be the one to do it so she told him no.

I don't think Gunn helped her exactly, she was all set to go with her plan and take the consequences for it. He just jumped in and did the killing before she could to protect her from those consequences (which didn't go so well).

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 10:20 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Yes very much a victim. I agree. Partly due to his inability to speak his mind when he should. Led to all manner of ills.

One should never hesitate - especially when it comes to affairs of the heart.

www.cirqus.com

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 11:48 AM

EMBERS

I have to start by saying I adore Wesley, he was a brilliant character and I still want to see his crazy control freak Father raise him from the dead to become zombie Wesley....

BUT Wesley had some deeply held flaws that caused a lot of his problems:

On BtVS:
He came to Sunnydale and thought that he knew better than Giles and/or Buffy even though he had never had any field experience whatsoever.

Wesley decided to judge Faith as harshly as possible and over-rode Gile's (and Angel's) way of handling the situation by calling in the Watcher's Council and forcing Faith over to the dark side.

Wesley was an inept fighter who not only couldn't hold his own in any situation, he managed to make things worse for others (whining for help on Graduation Day when more severely injured people needed help more urgently).

please don't get me wrong here: I was already a HUGE Wesley fan, seeing him as a comedic element, and a character who managed to do real damage thereby moving ahead the plot beautifully!

I think Wes' Summer on his own as a lonely Rogue Demon Hunter did a lot for him... but it didn't change him 100%

Wesley remained very judgmental and ready to believe that he was the only one with all the answers. When he read that about Angel killing his son (oops... big spoilers here...why are people afraid of being spoiled reading this thread anyway?) he never discussed it with the group,
he was willing to work with Angel's known enemies rather than even discuss it with the people he worked with!
Wesley created his own Karma...
even with Fred:
Wes might have thought he lost his chance with Fred because of Billy's misogynistic thing,
but in reality it was Wesley's own patronizing behavior which frustrated Fred and made her feel that she wasn't taken seriously.

But all this is what made him such a great character, he was so deeply flawed and he did come so far, and suffered so much. Joss was very cruel to take Fred away just the second when Wes & Fred finally connected....
(kinda like how Joss immediately killed Tara the second she made up with Willow)
(and the way Joss will undoubtedly make Inara suffer a horrible painful death as soon as she hooks up with Mal)

So I wouldn't call Wesley a victim, because I think in many ways he suffered the consequences of his own actions... but he did have to suffer from them big time. No doubt about it, he was a multi-layered complex character.

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Thursday, July 12, 2007 1:29 PM

JWHEDONADDICT

Nothing to add because most everyone said it already (especially Embers).

But I had to drop in and say how much I wuv Wes! Shocked the hell out of me. Thought Joss was nuts to bring him to ANGEL (later he got even crazier and wanted to do a musical of all things...what was he thinking?!

) but I am so glad he did and that I was wrong!

Like I said, I've got big, ginormous, hairy-ass love for Wes!!

**************************************
"What if you could have the power? Now? In every generation, one Slayer is born...because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule...
So I say we change the rule. I say my power should be our power...
Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up...
Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers, May 20, 2003

"In Joss We Trust."

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Friday, July 13, 2007 12:49 PM

MALBADINLATIN

Joss is pretty much a sadistic writer then huh?. What I wonder is if the shows he's masterminded would still be as good if he allowed the occasional happy ending?

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

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Saturday, July 14, 2007 12:25 AM

JWHEDONADDICT

BUFFY had a happy ending! He said that was why he didn't kill Xander or Giles, because he knew he couldn't kill either of the main four and still have a happy ending. Not that we weren't supposed to be sad that Anya, Spike, Amanda and Chao An died, but they were not part of the core group that started it all.

And who knows what the real ending of Firefly would have been had Joss been able to continue it? I would have to imagine that the "full-circle" ending would have been Mal getting his faith back, despite everything. SERENITY started that, but since Joss was hoping to make it a trilogy, who knows how that would have officially ended?

**************************************
"What if you could have the power? Now? In every generation, one Slayer is born...because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule...
So I say we change the rule. I say my power should be our power...
Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up...
Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers, May 20, 2003

"In Joss We Trust."

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Sunday, July 15, 2007 7:59 AM

MALBADINLATIN

Quote:
Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:
BUFFY had a happy ending! He said that was why he didn't kill Xander or Giles, because he knew he couldn't kill either of the main four and still have a happy ending. Not that we weren't supposed to be sad that Anya, Spike, Amanda and Chao An died, but they were not part of the core group that started it all.

By posting what I did I kind of asked for it....but I am just watching Buffy for the first time through on DVD and I'm at season 4. So I am completely responsible for spoiling it for myself now. I'm sure it will still be as entertaining nonetheless, and thanks for the clarification.

Quote:
Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:
And who knows what the real ending of Firefly would have been had Joss been able to continue it? I would have to imagine that the "full-circle" ending would have been Mal getting his faith back, despite everything. SERENITY started that, but since Joss was hoping to make it a trilogy, who knows how that would have officially ended?

Man...the possibilities are limitless, and I wonder who would have survived. You more experienced fan fic and Firefly fans might laugh at me but I had one idea for an ending where it turned out that River was designed to be someone who could control the minds of the Reavers as a weapon for the Alliance, then it would be a saga of the FF crew saving River from her mindless role as Reaver leader. Mal could put together an army out of the 1/2 of the people who dissaproved of the Miranda scandal, including certain former enemies (wink wink) Then they could take down the alliance. But that's not a trilogy...anyhow, waddya think of the overall idea?

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

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Monday, July 16, 2007 7:09 AM

JWHEDONADDICT

I'm so sorry! By what you said, I assumed incorrectly that you knew already. Had I suspected at all beforehand, I would have labeled it a spoiler.

Because I deserve it:

Again, I am so, so sorry!

**************************************
"What if you could have the power? Now? In every generation, one Slayer is born...because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule...
So I say we change the rule. I say my power should be our power...
Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up...
Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers, May 20, 2003

"In Joss We Trust."

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Thursday, November 8, 2007 5:35 PM

HOSTILE17NOW

He's not dead. their is a great evil in that man
from all those years of being comdemed by everyone he ever met, and great evil brings him great power and self hate never dies

He'll live to do whats right and to suffer

forever, fight forever........

our time is never up "Faith" we pay for everything..[Angel]

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Thursday, November 8, 2007 5:36 PM

HOSTILE17NOW

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Thursday, November 8, 2007 11:24 PM

WYTCHCROFT

i'm sure he aint -

Select to view spoiler:

apparently in the comics evveryone is shiny happy alive again

- sigh. ack, etc.

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 3:16 PM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
i'm sure he aint -
Select to view spoiler:
apparently in the comics evveryone is shiny happy alive again
- sigh. ack, etc.

LOL
maybe in the BUFFY comics there is some extent of shiny & happy & alive....
in 'Angel: After the Fall', not so much.
*enbers is jumping up & down w/excitement*

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