Angel and Cordy vs. Angel and Gwen by bobknaptor

ANGELUS ARCANUM

Angel and Cordy vs. Angel and Gwen

POSTED BY: BOBKNAPTOR
UPDATED: Monday, October 21, 2002 08:01
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VIEWED: 5555
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Tuesday, October 15, 2002 7:57 AM

So, They've been setting things up for the big Angel/Cordy love ever since Waiting in the Wings. And I'm sorry, I just don't see it. Before this summer, I had never watched Angel, but I was a total Buffy freak. A friend of mine told me that Angel and Cordy were in love, and I said No Way! That's so not believable. He said that if I watched it from the beginning and saw how she grew, how their friendship evolved, I'd get it, and totally want it to happen. So I did. I sat down and watched every single episode from the the very first, right up to Cordy's assention to "higher being" status. And I'm sorry, I STILL don't see it as a reasonable relationship.

I know Cordy's grown as a person. I see that she is no longer the stuck up little tight ass she was in high school. Fine. But it just seems very strange to me that a man could go 240 years and never know true love, then he finds it twice in 6 years. I'm not sure I'd buy true love twice in 6 years in a mere mortal who doesn't have time on his side, Let alone our taciturn, shadowy hero.

I like the idea of a crazy whirlwind romance with Gwen. Come on, she made his heart beat. And with her unusual "gift", she probably has never been able to really be with someone. I'd like to see Angel in a relationship that is not about love ever-lasting, but also not about hateful angry sex. I'd like to see him date a girl that he really likes, that makes him feel good and happy (although, obviously, not perfectly, blissfully happy). It being a Whedon show, it would have to have a painful ending, and that's fine. Just a quasi-normal relationship.

Cordy being one of the central characters of the show, it would be very difficult for them to have the big love because of the inevitable end. No one stays happy in the Whedon-verse for long. All the writers know this. So if Angel and Cordy get together, have the big perfect love, then break up, what happens with them? When Angel and Buffy broke up, he left the show. When Buffy and Riley broke up, he left the show. Look at how weird and awkward things are with Anya and Xander.

Ok, enough of my rant. what do you guys think? Angel and Cordy? Angel and Gwen? or Angel all by his lonesome, broody self?

______________
I’m still evil. I don’t run errands unless they are evil errands.

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Tuesday, October 15, 2002 9:51 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
So, They've been setting things up for the big Angel/Cordy love ever since Waiting in the Wings. And I'm sorry, I just don't see it. Before this summer, I had never watched Angel, but I was a total Buffy freak. A friend of mine told me that Angel and Cordy were in love, and I said No Way! That's so not believable. He said that if I watched it from the beginning and saw how she grew, how their friendship evolved, I'd get it, and totally want it to happen. So I did. I sat down and watched every single episode from the the very first, right up to Cordy's assention to "higher being" status. And I'm sorry, I STILL don't see it as a reasonable relationship.

THANK YOU! For the longest time I thought I was the only one that thought this plot line was stupid, stupid, stupid. I always thought that the Angel/Cordy relationship starting Ats season 1 was more of a brother/sister relationship than anything else. So from my perspective, this relationship seems to me like borderline incest.

What cheeses me off the most about the whole thing is that I keep having a mental flashback to "The Prom," where Angel breaks up with Buffy, because a relationship with him was unfair to her. There were several very logical, very sucky reasons for this:

1) Sex = evil psycotic killing spree.
2) Sunlight = Angel the human torch.

3) He's gonna live forever. She's not. (OK, in light of certain prophesies that arose, this isn't such a big deal now, but it was then.)
4) No children. (Again, with the slightly moot pointiness...)
5) Did I mention that pesky rule about sex?

OK, three years later, where are we? Well, problem three and four are less significant--but not entirely gone--issues. So if dating Buffy was unfair to Buffy, then is he trying to hurt Cordy? Because I see no way that their relationship can have a satisfying... anything. In the end, they'd make it as far (or hopefully not as far, I should say) and Angel did with Buffy, and they'd hit a brick wall: the giant NO SEX EVER brick wall. While I'm not saying that sex is the most important factor in a relationship, lets face it, perminent celebacy'll get frustrating.

Personally, I like Angel solo romantically. (read: if Buffy can't have him, and I can't have him, them dammit, no one should....)

________________

"You still don't get it. It's not about right. It's not about wrong... It's about Power." —Morph-O-Monster, "Lessons"

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Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:49 AM

KALIMAC

Well, I've kinda wanted Cordy and Angel together since Never Kill a Boy on the First Date (yeah, that long).

I mean, poor Cordy losing every guy to Buffy.

Then, in (I think it was) Halloween, Cordy has a cup of coffee with Angel. And look! He smiled! A true, genuine, carefree smile. Cordy actually makes him happy, instead of the twisted angst he always had with Buffy. With Cordelia, he can be truly happy--

Okay, so maybe it's not such a good idea, then...

Keep Flying

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Wednesday, October 16, 2002 11:53 AM

JERRY

I all in favor of Angel and Cordy. Because if I were Angel, I'd be in love with her. They need to get her back on earth and make some sense of some of the apparently senseless stuff they did with her at the end of last year, though.

Gwen I didn't really care for. She struck me as a second-rate version of Faith.

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Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:10 PM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Ok, maybe I'm just being too nitpicky here, but the latest episode has been kind of bothering me. Or, more accurately, I've been bothered by a little bit of simple math:

Vampires + Electricity = ?

Now on both BTVS and ATS, electricity has been used to stun vampires into unconciousness and cause them ouchy pain. Examples: the blasters used by the Initiative and the taser that Cordy/Fred used on Angel in "Carpe Noctem." In other words--to paraphrase a lame X-Men quote--the answer to the question "What happens to a vampire when it's stuck by lightening?" is "The same thing that happens to everyting else."

But in the last episode, the writers apparently decided to throw all that out the window, because Angel's repeated electrocution was not ouchy, painful, or stunning. What the...?

________________

"You still don't get it. It's not about right. It's not about wrong... It's about Power." —Morph-O-Monster, "Lessons"

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Thursday, October 17, 2002 4:17 AM

KALIMAC

Actually, my problem was a little different.

Correct me (please!) if I'm wrong, but I don't believe electricity can restart a heart. CPR can restart it - that's why one pounds on the chest, to pump the heart.

Defibrillators use electric jolts to knock the heart out of fibrillation - a kind of intense spasming. They do not restart a still heart.

On the other hand, in the Buffyverse, electricity can create undead Frankenstein monsters, so maybe this isn't so unusual...

Keep Flying

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Thursday, October 17, 2002 6:12 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Quote:
Originally posted by Kalimac:
Then, in (I think it was) Halloween, Cordy has a cup of coffee with Angel. And look! He smiled! A true, genuine, carefree smile. Cordy actually makes him happy, instead of the twisted angst he always had with Buffy.

Uh, I beg to differ. Buffy made Angel very happy, and not just in the obvious sense:

Quote:
GYPSY MAN: The elder woman has been reading signs. Something is different.

JENNY: Nothing's changed. The curse still holds. He's still tortured by all that he's done-

GYPSY MAN: No. The elder woman is never wrong. She says his pain is lessening. She feels it.

--Surprise (shooting script)

and

Quote:
BUFFY: Yeah, this really isn't "hunting" in the classical sense. We should get to work.

ANGEL: You're right. Okay.

Angel tries to pull it together, as does Buffy. They move away from the tree, walk a bit.

BUFFY: You see anything?

ANGEL: No.

BUFFY: Okay. Enough hunting.

She jumps him. They fall together again, laughing.

--Bad Eggs (shooting script)

... and this one is one of my favorites:

Quote:
A long beat as Buffy takes this in, understanding.

She approaches him again. Very deliberately this time. Her hands go to his face. He looks away, but does not pull back. The gentleness of her touch holds him fast.

Buffy turns his face back to hers. Tenderly runs her fingers along his transformed features. Angel is overwhelmed. Nobody has ever touched him like this.

BUFFY: I didn't even notice.

--What's My Line? pt 1 (shooting script)

... and one more for good measure...

Quote:
Buffy waits in bed, both her and the bedding nicely rumpled. Tastefully sheet-draped, she sits up as Angel places a bowl of grapes, a gallon of ice cream and a jar of peanut butter on the bed... she eats a couple of grapes. They're giddy with the love.

--I Will Remember You (shooting script)

Now I will be the first to admit that their relationship had more than healthy amounts of angst. However, that was not because Buffy and Angel weren't compatible, and not because Buffy didn't make him happy. On the contrary, they made each other very happy, it's just that circumsatnces created obsticales to their relationship that were impossible to ignore. And the problems Angel had with Buffy are just going to carry over into a relationship with Cordy.

________________

"You still don't get it. It's not about right. It's not about wrong... It's about Power." —Morph-O-Monster, "Lessons"

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Thursday, October 17, 2002 9:17 AM

BOBKNAPTOR

Quote:
the problems Angel had with Buffy are just going to carry over into a relationship with Cordy.

I totally agree. Even if it weren't for the curse, there's a host of other issues when you consider true love between a vampire and a human. There's the whole watching them slowly grow old and eventually die while the vamp stays eternally young and vernal.

The only thing that may factor in here is that Cordy is no longer a mere mortal. Who knows what her demon half would have done for her mortality? And now that she's a higher being... well, who knows how long they live or if they never die?

So, (realizing I may be contradicting myself here) maybe the only thing standing in the way is the Curse thing...

But, I still say that Cordy and Angel are better as friendly, brother/sister, sassy teasing type companions rather than lovers.

______________
Cordelia: This is totally like him. Doing the mystery dance with some cheap blonde?
Fred: Brunette. She was a cheap brunette.
Cordelia: You’re right. This isn’t like him.

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Thursday, October 17, 2002 9:26 AM

JERRY

I think it makes sense, story-wise, to address the issues that stand in the way of Angel having a relationship, rather than having him perpetually unable to have one. I'm in favor of them addressing this in regard to Cordelia, but I think it's a good thing to deal with regardless.

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Friday, October 18, 2002 4:54 AM

KALIMAC

Oh, I'm a Buffy/Angel guy all the way, don't get me wrong. But even back then, Angel seemed more comfortable with Cordy.

No, don't worry. I think Angel and Buffy are kind of a forever deal. "Does forever work for you?" They may have both moved on, but they will always love each other first and foremost.

(And yeah, they'd better address Angel's issues in this Cordy thing, but not in the same way please. Though I loved Greenwalt's proposed line of Angel's: "You know, just because I can't know perfect happiness, doesn't mean you can't."

)

Keep Flying

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Friday, October 18, 2002 6:18 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Quote:
Originally posted by Kalimac:
Oh, I'm a Buffy/Angel guy all the way, don't get me wrong. But even back then, Angel seemed more comfortable with Cordy.

At the risk of of sounding bitchy and arugementative (

), I'd have to disagree with that as well. Prior to the spin off, the number of scenes where Cordelia and Angel have a conversation can be counted on one hand. Most of those scenes went along the lines of:

1) Cordelia "drooling in Angel's cappichino" and otherwise trying to steal him away from Buffy. (In fact, because Cordy was an evil bitch monster back then, her motivations come off more along the lines of her wanting Angel because Buffy had the hottie, as opposed to genuinely having feelings for him.)
2) Angel being polite, but extremely not interested in Cordelia's advances. (ie, "Halloween" where Cordy starts talking to him, but he completely ignores her in favor of checking on Buffy).

As for comfort, I really don't think that Angel could have looked any LESS comfortable in "Some Assembly Required," with Cordy hanging on his arm.

In short, I don't see the Chemistry between those two. I would say this whole thing came from nowhere, but I don't think that really gives a good idea of the sheer amount of nowhere that came out of.

Oh, and where did you find that proposed line? I don't remember reading that in a shooting script.

________________

"You still don't get it. It's not about right. It's not about wrong... It's about Power." —Morph-O-Monster, "Lessons"

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Friday, October 18, 2002 8:15 AM

BOBKNAPTOR

Quote:
Originally posted by Kalimac:
"You know, just because I can't know perfect happiness, doesn't mean you can't." )

It is a great line. Can't he say it to Buffy? I know that it'll never happen... not just because Joss never lets anyone be truly happy for very long, or because it would be the end of both shows, but also because of the whole "competing Networks" thing... But if I were in charge of the world, Cordy would use her new-found powers from being a higher being to lift the "perfect happiness" part of the curse. I mean, come on... Spike has his soul without that caveat, so we know there's no cosmic law against it in the Buffy/Angel-verse. So, Angel has his soul, and no fear of losing it. Buffy moves to LA (she needs a change of scene), gets back together with Angel, and is a partner in Angel investigations. Plenty of rooms in the hotel for Dawn and Willow and Xander. Xander could find plenty of construction work. Willow is less likely to be seen as the girl who tried to destroy the world in LA. Not to mention the gay scene is probably much better there. Dawn can help straighten Connor out. And Buffy and Angel get to live happily ever after.

As for Cordy, get Groo back here! He really loved her (even if he was kinda annoying). And she got to be princess with him, which is what she's always wanted to be.

I haven't figured out yet how to make Wes and Lorne also perfectly happy. With Wes, I'm leaning towards the three-way with Fred and Gunn, just because Fred is the only girl he's ever been interested in that I liked. I'm pretty sure Lorne is gay, although they've never said one way or the other. (Comments like "How fabulous would I look in that coat" and "Then at least, you'd be in leather pants." make me think he's secretly in love with Angel.) So maybe he meets some nice peaceful demon guy who plays piano, and they turn the Ballroom of the Hotel into a piano bar where his new boy plays and he sings.

But that's my dream for the big happily ever after scenario. No, demons have not been exterminated from the earth. There's still lots to keep the team of Angel Investigations and the Scoobies from getting bored, but they are happy as they fight the good fight.

______________
Do I put out some kind of Comshok me vibe? I mean you'd tell me right?

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Friday, October 18, 2002 9:59 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
I'm pretty sure Lorne is gay, although they've never said one way or the other. (Comments like "How fabulous would I look in that coat" and "Then at least, you'd be in leather pants." make me think he's secretly in love with Angel.)

Actually, I don't think Lorne is gay. In fact, he's even commented on how he thinks Cordy's hot, and he'd totally go for her if she was more into the color green. I think that Lorne gives off the gay vibe because human males look very like the females of his species. The role of Lorne's mother was played by a male actor. So he probably does think that Angel is hot, and would love to see Angel in leather pants. But I don't think Lorne wants to get naked with the love--he still likes girls.

________________

"You still don't get it. It's not about right. It's not about wrong... It's about Power." —Morph-O-Monster, "Lessons"

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Friday, October 18, 2002 11:37 AM

REXRAYGUN

Quote:
Originally posted by LivingImpaired:
Actually, I don't think Lorne is gay. In fact, he's even commented on how he thinks Cordy's hot, and he'd totally go for her if she was more into the color green. I think that Lorne gives off the gay vibe because human males look very like the females of his species. The role of Lorne's mother was played by a male actor. So he probably does think that Angel is hot, and would love to see Angel in leather pants. But I don't think Lorne wants to get naked with the love--he still likes girls.

I'd have to agree with you on that one. Though Lorne is a great deal more flamboyant than a straight male HUMAN might be (Liberace meets the Rat Pack!) I just don't get any sort of impression that he is gay. But then again, I might be wrong. My Gaydar(TM) might be out of tune! Remember, there was the thing with the three women who were going to work the Sanctuary spell on the club, and they seemed to relate to him in a sexual manner.

Of course, it could be that he was just so fabulous and fun to be around! I am glad that they moved Lorne out, as he was starting to do the Fonzie thing and steal the show every episode. Hard not to do when you're the only happy character in their dark little world. I hope he has a major return every few episodes, but not that he's a big player on every show, as he overwhelms the rest of the cast sometimes.

Just my dos pesos,

Rex!

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Monday, October 21, 2002 5:26 AM

KALIMAC

LivingImpaired, Greenwalt mentioned in an interview how much he wanted to be able to work that line into an episode. Maybe not being able to develop this kind of storyline is the reason he felt he had to traitorously abandon us for that mid-season replacement travesty.

Sorry. Got side-tracked.

As for Lorne, I've always gotten a major gay vibe off him (my Dad, on viewing Judgment automatically labeled him a "gay-blade demon"). On the other hand, he also loves the women. Surely the two are not incompatible?

On the other hand, interesting theory on the masculinity of Lorne's mother. While we did see more feminine females on Pylea (e.g. the woman who 'owned' Cordy) I don't know if any of them were of the "green" species, or just the "pinks". Are all "green" women masculine? Or is it just an oedipal thing with Lorne?

But, yeah, Lorne's constant come-ons to Angel, as well as his 'fabulous' persona, scream "gay". And I think it was Happy Anniversary where, after mentioning Cordy's attractiveness, he says that the English guy "is going to be playing a HUGE role..." Some interpreted this as a hint of Wesley's destiny, but I thought (given the context) he was meaning to finish this by discussing Wesley' prominence in his dreams, and/or fantasies.

Anyway, as Andy Hallet himself said: "It's meant to be ambiguous."

Keep Flying

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Monday, October 21, 2002 8:01 AM

BOBKNAPTOR

Well, I could definitely accept Lorne as being bisexual. But I just don't see him as being straight as an arrow.... Maybe he's just too fabulous for one gender.

______________
Flitted in a manly way, just so we're clear.

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