Better Champion, Angel or Buffy by CrevanReaver

ANGELUS ARCANUM

Better Champion, Angel or Buffy

POSTED BY: CREVANREAVER
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 16:02
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Friday, May 21, 2004 11:36 AM

In the Caleb vs. Hamilton thread, Shadowvessel brings up the idea of "What if Buffy and Angel had both failed? If Angel had been killed in LA he wouldn't have brought Buffy the amulet to use and The First would have won". That got me thinking about the fact that because Angel gave Buffy the amulet he actually played a significant part in defeating the First Evil. In fact, if you think about it the First Evil would have not been defeated if Angel had not won in his battle with Jasmine (with the obvious assistant from Connor) and therefore been given the amulet.

So Angel was actually responsible for winning the war against the First Evil. Which brings me to the discussion on this thread: In the grand scheme of things who was actually the greater champion - Buffy or Angel.

I think it was Angel because he managed to accomplish so much without ever dying once. (As opposed to a certain blonde slayer)

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Friday, May 21, 2004 12:12 PM

SLOWSMURF

Technically, angel has died at least twice.

When he was vamped and when buffy killed him.

No cheating out of that ;)

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Friday, May 21, 2004 12:19 PM

STILLSHINY

In my opinion Buffy never has been a champion. She has always been the reluctant hero who had to do the job and just ended up being good at it. No one ever told Angel to be the Champion he chose to be. Heroes don't accept the world as it is. In fact I would say the same of Spike. No one ever told him he had to be a Champion he made a choice.

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." --Joss

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Friday, May 21, 2004 12:21 PM

INSANESPIKE

True, but on that same note, Buffy has died twice as well. Once in "Prophecy Girl" when she drowned and Xander had to give her mouth to mouth, and once in "The Gift" when she sacrificed herself and Willow brought her back to life.

So we know in the event of "Most Deaths" Buffy and Angel are neck and neck

"How drunk was I last night?"

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Friday, May 21, 2004 12:37 PM

CREVANREAVER

OK, you really can't include when Angel was vamped on the list of how many times he has died. As far as I'm concerned it was the spoiled 18th century drunkard named Liam that died then. And as for him being killed by Buffy, he wasn't fighting as a champion so that doesn't count as well. So in terms of fighting against the forces of evil, Angel was never killed in battle. That added with what Stillshiny brought up about him choosing the good fight and all his accomplishments, makes him the greater champion.

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Friday, May 21, 2004 1:17 PM

DAVCO92

Whether someone was or was not killed seems pretty irrelevant to me. A better question is did they get the job done? Another possible angle to consider is that Buffy is fated to be a Champion (aka Slayer) so she may have little or no choice in the matter. She does to a certain extent, but I'm not sure she has as much free will as you may think. I think Slayers may be drawn to the path of the hero by their very nature. They were chosen for specific reasons, not arbitrarily. They're essentially "throw away" heroes. Kill one and another will rise, all that matters is that they are drawn into the conflict and inflict as many causualties as possible until they fall. They can stray from the path and make mistakes like anyone else, but they will probably end up acting like a Champion eventually. Faith's character arc is a good example, if only one case. Did she feel guilty and choose to repent or did her "fate" slowly re-assert itself? Who knows? Also, don't forget that Buffy chose to sacrifice Angel and then later herself in order to save the world from dire peril. This makes her a true Champion in my book. Overall I don't think "the better Champion" is really pertinent. Angel and Buffy (along with Faith and Spike) are all Champions, damaged collages of darkness and light, that fight the good fight for various reasons. I don't know if the good "powers that be" in the Buffyverse necessarily care so much why a Champion does something as longs as they get the job done. If they fall then another will just be called to take their place (or when Joss get's another show

LOL!).

Burn the land, boil the sea...

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Friday, May 21, 2004 1:48 PM

MAUGWAI

I love Angel, but he's ambiguous as a champion. He will do the questionable thing if he thinks it's necessary. Not Buffy.

In "Dead Things" she felt unbelievable guilt just for thinking she killed someone accidentally. And she couldn't kill Ben. One of my favorite lines int he series is when Giles tells Ben, "She's a hero, you see, not like us," before he kills him. That whole episode defines her.

She understands her place in the world, up until she dies. Then she has to relearn it during the last two seasons because it has changed. Notice how whenever something weird happens, she's always the first person to admit it? Everybody else is afraid they're imagining things. That's why she's the leader. She is always the good guy. Angel is a little more on the fence.

Wow. Didn't realize how much I love Buffy. Too bad it's too late to change my favorite character vote.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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Friday, May 21, 2004 2:00 PM

THOREAU

I'd say Angel, but just because I can identify with him more. I've never been fond of the reluctant hero. I like the hero that does it because it needs to be done, and when it gets real bad he tries to make everyone he cares about go away. Partly because he doesn't want them to get hurt, partly because he's got bad business to do and doesn't want them to have to see him do it. That's what I really liked about Angel.

Jayne: "These are stone killers, little man. They ain't cuddly like me."

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Tuesday, May 25, 2004 4:02 PM

POOSHA

i've gotta say BUffy

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