Caleb vs. Hamilton by ShadowVessel

ANGELUS ARCANUM

Caleb vs. Hamilton

POSTED BY: SHADOWVESSEL
UPDATED: Sunday, June 6, 2004 20:11
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VIEWED: 10839
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Wednesday, May 19, 2004 6:33 PM

Nevermind the obvious simularities between the two. Mal. Jayne. They both have the ancient power of their masters running through their veins, which tends to be the same thing: strength, speed, invulnerability. So, if the two faced off, who'd walk away the victor? The minion of The First or the laison to The Wolf, Ram, and Hart?

(Gorramn Double Post)

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Wednesday, May 19, 2004 6:33 PM

SHADOWVESSEL

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Wednesday, May 19, 2004 6:39 PM

DELIA

Just to be on the safe side, since I'm going to discuss the finale . . .

Select to view spoiler:

My money would be on Hamilton. It seemed that the only way to defeat Hamilton was to use his own power against him, whereas Buffy was ultimately able to take out Caleb, even if she did have to use a magic weapon. In other words, Buffy was stronger than Caleb, but Angel only defeated Hamilton once he possessed Hamilton's powers. Plus, Hamilton was taller and had better clothes.

Now, here's the real question, why did all the Firefliers who appeared in the Buffyverse die there -- Caleb/Mal, Hamilton/Jayne, Jasmine/Zoe, and even Ballerina/River, though she wasn't all evil-like.

___________________________________________
WESLEY : Feng shui.
GUNN: Right. What's that mean again?
WESLEY: That people will believe anything.

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Wednesday, May 19, 2004 6:51 PM

CAGEYBEE

he's talller and has better clothes....delia, that was the BEST!

me

~Mal- "how drunk was i last night?"
~Jayne- "i don't know. i passed out."

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Wednesday, May 19, 2004 7:07 PM

DELIA

Quote:
Originally posted by cageybee:
he's talller and has better clothes....delia, that was the BEST!

Thanks. Don't even get me started on the hair issue. Caleb's hair did what I thought was impossible -- it took Nathan Fillion right up to the edge of unattractive.

Delia

___________________________________________
WESLEY : Feng shui.
GUNN: Right. What's that mean again?
WESLEY: That people will believe anything.

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Wednesday, May 19, 2004 7:12 PM

CREVANREAVER

Since they "both have the ancient power of their masters running through their veins" it is really of a matter of who is more powerful, Wolfram & Hart or the First Evil. Once you figure that out and you'll have your answer. Personally I'd put my money on the minion of the First Evil.

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Wednesday, May 19, 2004 7:41 PM

QUICKSAND

I'd have to watch tonight's Angel episode again to be sure (with a pen and notebook this time), but I'm pretty sure Hamilton had an IDENTICAL line to one of Caleb's, something about how big and powerful his side is and how You Should Just Give Up. The WB is re-running it on Tuesday (I think), so I'll be sure and record it for posterity.

To answer the question... we never fully understood the size or depth of Hamilton's power. We DID understand completely what Caleb could do, and where we came from... and what he was.

Only a magical weapon could destroy Caleb. And forgive the spoiler (if it is one), but Hamilton died of a broken neck. Heck, even AFTER Buffy whacked Caleb with the magic axe, she had to cut him in half before he stayed down.

Although, let us remember-- Hamilton was the MUCH bigger pimp.

___\_o_/___
--------------- (Qs)

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:19 PM

SHADOWVESSEL

I went back and watched the last couple of episodes of Buffy and realized something else: Caleb had agility going for him, too. Hamilton was pretty much a stiff juggernaut (please, no inuendo intended). It's kind of like the question of what happens when an unstoppable force hits an immovable object.

The arguement could also be made that the reason Caleb had to be killed with a magical weapon and Hamilton died of a broken neck was because of the circumstances. Angel had no magical weapon. It's entirely possible a magical weapon couldn't have killed him. Buffy wasn't strong enough to break Caleb's neck. Maybe it couldn't be, either. It's kind of like Superman. Pit him against the Joker and he's an unstoppable juggernaut. Bring in someone else from Krypton and you've got an even match and the possibility of a broken neck coming about. This is what happened with Angel. After drinking Hamilton's blood and therefore absorbing his massive power, you've got a couple of Kryptonians throwin' down. Had Buffy absorbed the full demon power the priests tried to push on her, maybe she would've snapped Caleb's neck. And with Angel's fangs piercing Hamilton's neck it's also possible that a well placed scythe could've disembowled him, too.

And it's hard to see who would be more powerful out of The First and The Senior Partners. On the surface it looks like The Wolf, Ram, and Hart. They run everything. But, maybe they're just better manipulaters. Plus there's three of them. The First, however, was the first evil that all other evil spawned from. Heh, heh. I wonder if The First, The Senior Partners, and Illyria ever hung out? Kind of off-subject, but I'd love to know the back-story between Illyria, WR&H, Hamilton, and Drojen (did I spell that right?).

So you see my dillema. Caleb or Hamilton? The world may never know.

(Gorramn Double Post)

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:19 PM

SHADOWVESSEL

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 10:22 PM

RANGRBOB

>>he's talller and has better clothes<<

"Dress for Less"...Connor

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Friday, May 21, 2004 4:06 AM

GRRARRG

Funny how all of the Firefly actors that were recast elsewhere in the Buffyverse, they were all stronger than Buffy and Angel, and all required special circumstances to be brought down.

I'd have to go with Jasmine. She actually was a Power-That-Was-And-Was-About-To-Be-Again, whereas Caleb and Hamilton were vessels of the First and the Senior Partners, respectively. Jasmine was using her own strength, and she wasn't even up to full power yet. Plus, maybe her charm spell would work on Caleb and Hamilton. I don't remember the criteria, because it didn't affect regular vampires but it did affect Angel and the creatures from that other dimension - probably souled beings. Caleb probably still had his soul, but we don't know if Hamilton ever did.

Too bad we'll never get to see Alan come and kick some ass in Sunnydale, wearing the Hawaiian shirt and mustache. It would have been nice if he had made it into the circle of the black thorn.

I mock you with my monkey pants

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Friday, May 21, 2004 4:07 AM

GRRARRG

Of course, I didn't really answer the question . . . between the two, I think it would depend on who was wearing tighter pants.

I mock you with my monkey pants

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Friday, May 21, 2004 6:44 AM

FAITH5X5

The WB is airing the Angel Finale again on Tuesday so you can check it out. I think its on at 8.

Faith5X5

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Friday, May 21, 2004 7:26 AM

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL

My vote would be that Wolfram and Hart are more powerful than the First - if you remember, it was the amulet sent by WR&H that allowed the First to be defeated in the finale of Buffy.

"I like smackin' 'em!" - Jayne Cobb

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Friday, May 21, 2004 7:49 AM

DAVCO92

Hamilton wasn't around too much so I figure he was spending way too much time in his bunk...I'll go with Caleb.

Burn the land, boil the sea...

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Friday, May 21, 2004 7:56 AM

SOUTHERNMERC

Did anyone but me notice that Joss answered the question put forth during Fred's death, that of "Who would win, cavemen or astronauts?" With WR&H being the astronauts and Illyria being the cavemen, it's pretty clear that the cavemen get the spanking. Illyria only did well when she started using the plan Angel put forth, coupling her incredible strength with Angel's intelligence.

Any takers for this off topic bit?

Jayne: "See, Vera? You get dressed up, you get taken someplace fun!"

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Friday, May 21, 2004 10:22 AM

QUICKSAND

I disagree.

What you said is true, about agility vs. juggernautism (i made a word!), but you must recall that Caleb took an axe to the CHEST. He was DEAD. He had the First going for him... and he got right back up again. Had his neck been broken, he'd have gotten up too, I wager.

Hamilton... the senior partners didn't imbue with quite so much power. When he died, he stayed dead. Not only that, the senior partners dropped an entire building on his head, because they had bigger fish to fry.

So as it happens, you really DO live longer when you have a team behind you. And less long, when you don't.

___\_o_/___
--------------- (Qs)

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Friday, May 21, 2004 10:24 AM

QUICKSAND

Dude, were you not paying attention?

WR&H didn't send the amulet.... Lindsey did.

(Well, okay, he sent it to WR&H, who sent it to Angel, but that's neither here nor there).

___\_o_/___
--------------- (Qs)

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Friday, May 21, 2004 10:57 AM

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL

Actually, this brings up an interesting question. Since Lilah gave Angel the amulet, was she in league with Lindsey? Seems unlikely, since they really didn't like each other, but maybe their mutual hatred for Angel brought them together.

Or perhaps Lilah (and thus the Senior Partners) gave the amulet to Angel, knowing they could bring him back after its use, but dropped the plan when Spike used it instead. Lindsey may have just taken advantage of the situation and claimed responsibility, as nobody would know any better.

"I like smackin' 'em!" - Jayne Cobb

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Friday, May 21, 2004 11:15 AM

SHADOWVESSEL

Quote:
Posted by grrarrg.
I'd have to go with Jasmine. She actually was a Power-That-Was-And-Was-About-To-Be-Again, whereas Caleb and Hamilton were vessels of the First and the Senior Partners, respectively. Jasmine was using her own strength, and she wasn't even up to full power yet. Plus, maybe her charm spell would work on Caleb and Hamilton.

I was actually thinking of this scenario today! What if Buffy and Angel had both failed? If Angel had been killed in LA he wouldn't have brought Buffy the amulet to use and The First would have won. So what kind of battle royale would have ensued as two Ancients and their armies collided in their attemps to rule the Earth?

New topic, anyone?

(Gorramn Double Post)

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Friday, May 21, 2004 11:15 AM

SHADOWVESSEL

Quote:
Posted by grrarrg.
I'd have to go with Jasmine. She actually was a Power-That-Was-And-Was-About-To-Be-Again, whereas Caleb and Hamilton were vessels of the First and the Senior Partners, respectively. Jasmine was using her own strength, and she wasn't even up to full power yet. Plus, maybe her charm spell would work on Caleb and Hamilton.

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Friday, May 21, 2004 11:32 AM

SHADOWVESSEL

Quote:
Originally posted by Quicksand:
I disagree.

What you said is true, about agility vs. juggernautism (i made a word!), but you must recall that Caleb took an axe to the CHEST. He was DEAD. He had the First going for him... and he got right back up again. Had his neck been broken, he'd have gotten up too, I wager.

Hamilton... the senior partners didn't imbue with quite so much power. When he died, he stayed dead.

___\_o_/___
--------------- (Qs)

I think we have our winning arguement. Juggernautism isn't beaten by agility, but by the power of resurrection.

And yes, tighter pants, also known as the power of 'urrection.

Now... Caleb, The First, and the Ubervamps vs. Jasmine and the world. The only problem in that would be if the Ubervamps turned the world population into vampires before the tide could be turned. Takers anyone?

(Gorramn Double Post)

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Friday, May 21, 2004 11:32 AM

SHADOWVESSEL

Quote:
Originally posted by Quicksand:
I disagree.

What you said is true, about agility vs. juggernautism (i made a word!), but you must recall that Caleb took an axe to the CHEST. He was DEAD. He had the First going for him... and he got right back up again. Had his neck been broken, he'd have gotten up too, I wager.

Hamilton... the senior partners didn't imbue with quite so much power. When he died, he stayed dead.

___\_o_/___
--------------- (Qs)

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Friday, May 21, 2004 7:29 PM

CAGEYBEE

my thinking on the whole WR&H vs. the first is that it wouldn't happen, aren't they kinda on the same side? i mean, a 'you rule the americas, we get asia' kinda thing....only that doesn't work either because eventually, someone wants it all and someone feels justified in getting it. this leads to another good vs. evil....its everlasting, i guess.

closer to the actual subject thread, shouldn't WR&H be less powerful than the first, because its... well, its the first? shouldn't it have created WR&H? and unless the first had a death wish (can you have those if you're incorporeal?), why would it give the animal lawyers more power than itself? i mean, everyone's evil here...."curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"

edit- animal lawyers = WR&H...hey, my mom says i'm witty.

edit #2- just have to mention, wasn't it great when angel and hamilton have been fighting for awhile, and angel's all bloody and breathing hard and hamilton straightens his barely-mussed suit....it was so telling, i was very worried....but it has hi-larious.

me

~Mal- "how drunk was i last night?"
~Jayne- "i don't know. i passed out."

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Saturday, May 22, 2004 9:47 AM

SHADOWVESSEL

Actually, it's never said that The First created all other evil, just that it was the first evil on the block.

(Gorramn Double Post)

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Saturday, May 22, 2004 9:47 AM

SHADOWVESSEL

Actually, it's never said that The First created all other evil, just that it was the first evil on the block.

(Gorramn Double Post)

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Saturday, May 22, 2004 12:32 PM

QUICKSAND

Apples and Oranges, my friend.

A superpower is only as powerful as their army, and your army can't fight if they're in a Love-induced haze.

Or, in Illyria's case, all dead.

___\_o_/___
--------------- (Qs)

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Saturday, May 22, 2004 7:17 PM

SHADOWVESSEL

Wow, Quick'. You're as prominent as your name implies. The first half, anyway. You've managed to put yet another dilema at ease.

Oh, and Vampire$ also had an ensemble. Jack Crow was THE main character, much like Mal, but in the scope of the overall story the team were all leading characters, much like the crew of Serenity. I could say more on this, but I don't want to ruin it for you if you haven't read it and are planning to read it. I will say this: Aw, forget it, I don't want to ruin it for you.

(Gorramn Double Post)

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Saturday, May 22, 2004 7:17 PM

SHADOWVESSEL

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Saturday, May 22, 2004 7:51 PM

QUICKSAND

I'm glad to hear the book spent some time on Other Characters Who Weren't Jack Or The Scary Vampire. There is always potential for a great story in the characters who AREN'T the hero, so props to Steakley for knowing this, and points deducted from John Carpenter for bein' a big dummy.

Carpenter is past his prime, anyway. We're still talking about Halloween and Escape from New York TODAY, and still will be in 20 years, but I forgot about Vampires 20 minutes after I saw it, and I don't think there's any evidence 'Ghosts of Mars' ever existed. How does this man still get work?

Oh, and thanks for the compliments. It's nice to meet someone else here who knows how to separate paragraphs.

___\_o_/___
--------------- (Qs)

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Saturday, May 22, 2004 9:08 PM

SHADOWVESSEL

The Ghosts of what? Yeah, I know what you mean. Even Escape from LA was just a cheesy remake of the original. The last movie Carpenter made that I thought was cool was Memoirs of an Invisible Man. It just took the whole invisible man thing to a new level for me. Not that I deem it legendary or anything, it just brushed the dust off an otherwise non-exilerating mythos. And Sam Neil's just freakin' cool. Oh! And since we're on books and invisible men... another great book is Fade. It takes the whole invisible man thing to a whole new plane of existence! I can't remember who wrote it, though, because I haven't seen it again since I read it in the school library eleven years ago. Guess I'm a guy who's just got a thing for books that never quite get off the ground.

I went back and read you're "Genius Serenity" Blog. I, too, thought Transformers: The Movie was a true cinematic jump from TV. At the time, like you, I was like 12 or 13 so it kinda blew me away and made me cringe. Not that I was unused to seeing that kind of violence on TV, my dad had us watching Dirty Harry and The Thing (another legendary Carpenter shout out) while I was still in elementary school, but because it was freakin' Transformers! Now I look back and see that for someone to give the order to kill off most of the leading characters, including Optimus freakin' Prime, took balls that clank. Hopefully, Firefly will make the same (only without all the killing of characters) jump to Serenity.

Oh yeah... eewww! Dude, you kissed a dude!

(Gorramn Double Post)

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Saturday, May 22, 2004 9:08 PM

SHADOWVESSEL

(Gorramn Double Post)

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Saturday, May 22, 2004 10:18 PM

QUICKSAND

You sure do have that double-posting problem a lot. Perhaps you should see a doctor?

I've got my own theories as to What Happens Next with the 'Serenity' crew, but if I turn out to be wrong, I will have created a really, really evil rumor for no good reason. So I'm just gonna hang back and see what happens.

And Trust Joss.

___\_o_/___
--------------- (Qs)

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Sunday, May 23, 2004 11:02 AM

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

Quote:
Originally posted by SouthernMerc:
Did anyone but me notice that Joss answered the question put forth during Fred's death, that of "Who would win, cavemen or astronauts?" With WR&H being the astronauts and Illyria being the cavemen, it's pretty clear that the cavemen get the spanking. Illyria only did well when she started using the plan Angel put forth, coupling her incredible strength with Angel's intelligence.

Any takers for this off topic bit?

Jayne: "See, Vera? You get dressed up, you get taken someplace fun!"

nice theory, but it won't work because remember the Astronauts can't have weapons, and i don't see the Senior partners getting up and doing their own dirty work so technically Hamilton was a weapon...no hamilton...no beating the caveman/illyria.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
MAL: This is my scrap of nowhere. You go on and find your own.
SAFFRON: You can't just leave me here, on this
lifeless piece of crap moon...
MAL: Sure I can.
SAFFRON: I'll die.
MAL: Well, as a courtesy, you might start
getting busy on that, cause all this chatter ain't doin' me any kindness.

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Sunday, May 23, 2004 12:16 PM

SOUTHERNMERC

Doesn't say the astronauts can't have weapons, they meant no MODERN weapons. Anything can be a weapon, and it doesn't matter if the cavemen are stronger, strength alone doesn't win battles for you. For some reason everyone has this image of super-strong brute in their minds about "cavemen." They weren't THAT much stronger than modern man, and they certainly weren't healthier. And they used tools, the same as modern humans. They just didn't have advanced tools or knowledge.

Jasmine vs. the First, all and all, an ugly fight.

Jayne: "See, Vera? You get dressed up, you get taken someplace fun!"

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Monday, May 24, 2004 5:14 PM

TOMTBA2004

(if you look at the history) Hamiliton broke his neck and Caleb got split in two. If you go by points (Boxing style) Caleb won. Hamilton killed one employee,took out illyria and her keeper. beat up on angle and conner a bit. Caleb took out quite a few potentials and zander's eye, took on two slayers( Hurt them both pretty badly)they both got taken out by either angle or buffy having a weapon of some sort. And ya the amulet was sent by wolf ram and heart it wasn't made by them. and that was for the vamps not caleb. it is a tough question. i think only joss could answer it. It would be a good Brawl. Heres a new question, Buffy Vs. Hamilton and Angel vs. Caleb?

" lets go to work"

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Thursday, May 27, 2004 5:02 PM

SHADOWVESSEL

Quote:
Originally posted by Quicksand:
Apples and Oranges, my friend.

A superpower is only as powerful as their army, and your army can't fight if they're in a Love-induced haze.

Or, in Illyria's case, all dead.

___\_o_/___
--------------- (Qs)

Now that I've finished the video and it's out(shameless plug), my brain's been freed up for the pursuit of more trivial dillemas at work.

I got to thinking... even in a love-induced haze a "launch" button can be pushed. We must think outside of the box here. The entire planet's population would have been under Jasmine's control. The media connected ones, anyway. That includes the President and all his military. Which, I believe, in turn would've ended with Sunnydale in nuclear winter.

Bwah!

(Gorramn Double Post)

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Thursday, May 27, 2004 5:02 PM

SHADOWVESSEL

Quote:
Originally posted by Quicksand:
Apples and Oranges, my friend.

A superpower is only as powerful as their army, and your army can't fight if they're in a Love-induced haze.

Or, in Illyria's case, all dead.

___\_o_/___
--------------- (Qs)

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Monday, May 31, 2004 2:40 AM

LITTLEMANLOVESFIRE

This has got me thinking - who was the toughest son of a bitch to ever appear in either Whedonverse show?

We've discussed Caleb and Hamilton, but what about Glory, Illyria and The Beast?

I'd have to go with Illyria, but only before she was zapped. Somehow I have the impression that Hamilton would not have been able to have the fun he had with her if she still had her powers - plus Buffy's Scythe or Olaf's Hammer probably would have just shattered on her and she would have barely noticed.

We also saw what happened when she felt threatened - she wiped out our entire team of heroes in less than 10 seconds.

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Sunday, June 6, 2004 8:11 PM

DTT

As far as Caleb vs. Hamilton, that would be one very interesting day.

If we're gonna talk about toughness, I'd not that (shudder) Riley cut out a chip that was integrated into the nervous system. If I remember correctly, it was around his shoulder. The guy was not superstrong or anything, but performing major surgery on yourself -- that's tough. And I really didn't like that character, so it's not like I WANT to credit him with toughness.

"You didn't have to wound that man."
"Yeah, I know. It was just funny."

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