The Shan Shu prophecy by Dewrastler

ANGELUS ARCANUM

The Shan Shu prophecy

POSTED BY: DEWRASTLER
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 06:22
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VIEWED: 6466
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Sunday, January 4, 2009 7:28 AM

So I was thinking about good and evil a minute ago and my mind started to wander towards Angel and Spike, of course. I started thinking about how Angel was really pure evil, therefore he was such evil as Angelus. Being that evil was natural to him. As he put it, he fully enjoyed the hunt and the killing. Therefore, when he got a soul he suffered for a hundred or so years before coming to terms with all the pain he had caused.

Spike on the other hand, is not so evil. He fought for his soul and it took very little time to come to terms with what he'd done and become a Champion for good. As we see in season 5 of Angel, it was really Angelus who pushed him towards evil things. Who made him William the Bloody. If Spike had not been turned and joined forces with Angelus, he could have easily become a Champion of his time. Instead he was swayed by the dark side (in fact he is very much like Darth Vader. A good person swayed to do evil things even though he had good intentions a.k.a Spike saving his mother. In the end he returns to the light side and saves the day).

After these lines of thought I began to think about the Shan Shu prophecy, about a vampire with a soul who would play a part in the coming apocalypse for either the side of good or evil. Since Angelus in inherently evil and Spike is inherently good, I believe the side the vampire with a soul joins depends fully on the vampire. If it's Angel, his true nature will be released and he will fight for the side of evil. If it were to be Spike, then he would fight for good. There may even be a battle between the two, and to the victor go the spoils.

What do you all think?

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People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 2:12 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Interesting thought. Was the main difference between the original men, Liam and William, or was there a difference in the demons that came into possession of their bodies? William clearly had a more quiet and sensitive nature, while Liam liked to party, but did that make the latter inherently evil? I don't think it would. So what was the difference in the demons that Angelus sought and reveled in his crimes and Spike was pushed into it? And what about Darla? She reveled just as much as Angelus, but her spirit didn't seem to be evil in the later seasons of Angel. And Drusilla, who was driven mad before being turned? That madness stayed with her through the centuries. Does that mean she was pushed into that evil beforehand, or was more work done on her after she was turned to make her enjoy the havoc she could wreak?

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:02 PM

EMBERS

It is an interesting question...
Angel was a drunken wastrel who was turned by Darla (ex-prostitute) so they kind of started with two strikes against them...

Spike was an educated man who was turned by a Drusilla (saintly young woman who was driven insane by Angelus before he turned her) so they actually started off with more developed sensibilities in the first place...

But I still think the Shan Shu was always meant for Angel...
he was the one with a soul for centuries before Spike got his (even though I personally give him great credit for going for it on his own... even though he only wanted it to impress Buffy).

New Firefly fans should check this out: http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=2&t=15816

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 9:57 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Hey, am I the only one who wonders why they introduced the Jewel of Amarra to have it not be used or ever spoken of again? I know this isn't strictly to do with the prophesy, but it seems like a vampire who can walk in the sun and survive almost anything else one can throw at him... well, that's more than being human again, that's having many pleasures of being human while still being strong. He destroyed the Jewel, then not long after was lamentful and tortured because he couldn't go out in the sun, he couldn't give that to any woman he loved. An no one, ever, at any point, mentioned or asked about this ring that, you know, made him invulnerable. No one from the Buffy world ever said "Hey, whatever happened to that?" and no one in the Angel world ever said "Well, dumbass, maybe you shouldn't have smashed that thing!"
Just a thought.
And not only did he have the Jewel of Amarra, a not-quite-literal possible fulfilling of the prophesy, but at one point he was made human. He gave it up. Yes, it was noble of him, and the fate of the world is a pretty good reason, but right then and there that prophesy was fulfilled! And if that was a bad time for it to be, well now he knows what substance can turn a vampire back to a living, breathing human. So signing it away in the fifth season (and did he really? his signature didn't look like his signature) would ultimately have meant nothing if he'd had another chance to get his hands on some special restorative demon blood. Most unfortunately, we never got to see how that saving the world bit turned out, but after they were done killing all the nasties hell could throw at them, couldn't he then have claimed that humanity? Humanity that was the focus of so much story, that he wanted so much, that he had freely given up twice?!
So maybe it was meant for Angel, but he gave it a pass. Maybe it moved on to the next champion vampire with a soul. And Spike? I can't see him giving that up. Maybe if he found out this woman he was so in love with would die otherwise, but he probably wouldn't have tracked down shiny blue people and asked them outright what consequence this would have. Not that he wouldn't care, but he just wouldn't question it. Had the prophesy fulfilled for him, that would have been that, so maybe it is meant for him after all.

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Thursday, January 22, 2009 4:51 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Hey, am I the only one who wonders why they introduced the Jewel of Amarra to have it not be used or ever spoken of again? I know this isn't strictly to do with the prophesy, but it seems like a vampire who can walk in the sun and survive almost anything else one can throw at him...

yes but an invincible unkillable hero becomes really boring, this is why they had to come up w/kyrponite for Superman...
you lose interest if our hero can't lose in a fight, there is no dramatic tension... so of course Joss had to get rid of the ring.

Quote:

And not only did he have the Jewel of Amarra, a not-quite-literal possible fulfilling of the prophesy, but at one point he was made human. He gave it up.

Oh I agree, THAT was lame...
he is working to become human, but when he DOES become human he gives it up...
but then we are supposed to believe that his motivation for everything is the Shan Shu & the chance to be human?
Really?
*eyeroll*

Basically the writers just wanted to give Angel a fantasy happy day with Buffy, and the excuse was kind of not working... IMO

Poor old Spike has shown himself willing to die, for Buffy, and then at the end of S6 he was willing to die for the world...
But I still feel like it would always be Spike horning in as a 'Johnny Come Lately' and taking Angel's prophecy....

I also think that we, as the audience, get too caught up in the importance of prophecies... Joss has made in clear in a number of instances that they are always misunderstandings or lies.

New Firefly fans should check this out: http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=2&t=15816

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Thursday, January 22, 2009 5:56 AM

ZEEK

I never liked the prophecy. Hadn't Angel already become human and given it up by the time we found out about it? I just felt like it would be a weak reward.

Thinking about it though who says it's a reward necessarily? If the vampire with the soul fights for the evil side then maybe becoming human is a punishment so he'll finally die already. It's hard to imagine that Angel or Spike would fight for the evil side while they have a soul though. The prophecy wouldn't really make sense if Angel became Angelus and then fought for evil. He'd no longer be a vampire with a soul.

Obviously either Spike or Angel could fight for the good side. We've seen that. The worst thing we see Angel do with a soul is not intervene when Darla and Drusila eat a bunch of lawyers. Not the most evil act ever. If I had to say which one could be evil with a soul I'd go with Spike. He isn't the brightest star in the sky by any means. He doesn't tend to care about the big picture. He just rides his emotions. If Buffy were to reject him outright then I could see him fly off the handle. I can't think of a similar situation that would turn Angel.

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Thursday, January 22, 2009 7:23 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
an invincible unkillable hero becomes really boring...

It's true, and I get that, so my question remains why did they introduce it in the first place if it wasn't really going to be usable for storytelling? It was kind of a cool little thing, but then sending it to Angel was, what, a good excuse for the two worlds to touch? And again I ask, why was it never again mentioned, ever? When Spike showed up again, I expected there to come a point where he asked what happened to it, since he was the one to track it down in the first place.

I really did like the show, you know, but the whole "Angel longs for the sunlight" theme bugged me a little, because of those two things. It would have bugged me a little less if there'd been some continuity somewhere, some mention that he'd been all noble and given it up, and he should be proud. Or something.

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Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:20 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by Dewrastler:

Quote:
After these lines of thought I began to think about the Shan Shu prophecy, about a vampire with a soul who would play a part in the coming apocalypse for either the side of good or evil. Since Angelus in inherently evil and Spike is inherently good, I believe the side the vampire with a soul joins depends fully on the vampire. If it's Angel, his true nature will be released and he will fight for the side of evil. If it were to be Spike, then he would fight for good. There may even be a battle between the two, and to the victor go the spoils.

Angel's true nature is not that of Angelus though. Angel was essentially a little misguided but not evil. Angelus was... pure evil.

Angel was basically a tortured individual since the gypsy curse and it is this act of penance, that he carried around for so many years, that will see him rewarded with his humanity. His humanity which he gives up in the final episode when he scribes his signature in his own blood. I think, if I recall correctly, he was human at that point - which is what made the deal binding. (I'd have to go back and check on that though)

Furthermore if the above is the case then that removes Spike from the equation who, while tormented with his new found soul, remains unrepentant for his past sins and therefore less of a champion.

In terms of the ring of Amarra - Angel saw the pocessing of it as a test. If he were to accpet the rewards the ring offered him, he would still be 'super' human. Angel believed his humanity would need to come from something much greater; and for him it was by an act of sacrifice. The chance to be selfless was what the 'Ring' was ultimately about. That was it's true gift.

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Monday, February 9, 2009 8:38 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
remains unrepentant for his past sins

How do you figure? So he didn't spend hundreds of years blaming himself for everything he did with a demon riding his body, he did go insane for a time, he accepted that it wasn't him (or his mother) acting as much as it was a demon, and he moved on. I don't think that's unrepentant, it's just different.

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Monday, February 9, 2009 9:33 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by PhoenixRose:

Quote:
How do you figure?

By what I said above...

Quote:
So he didn't spend hundreds of years blaming himself for everything he did with a demon riding his body, he did go insane for a time, he accepted that it wasn't him (or his mother) acting as much as it was a demon, and he moved on. I don't think that's unrepentant

That's exactly what it is (especially within the context of the show). Angel was not only tormented by the curse of having his soul returned to him, he was also trying to repent for his past sins. That was his modus operandi throught the Buffy/Angel chronology and it is that act essentially which separates he and Spike.

Spike regained his soul for himself, to 'win' over Buffy. His needs. While that may have resulted in him being tormented (going insane as you said) it did not lead him to be repentant. An act which I think was key in terms of the prophecy and in defining whom - of the vampires with a soul it was referring to.

That's as I see it anyway - but I guess it's open to interpretation.

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Monday, February 16, 2009 2:08 AM

ADS

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
If it's Angel, his true nature will be released and he will fight for the side of evil. If it were to be Spike, then he would fight for good. There may even be a battle between the two, and to the victor go the spoils.

Don't know if this would have happened or not but it would have been the type of ending to the series I would have really liked. I really loved Angels last stint as Angelus in the show. He was so bad it was good.

Building the main character up over five seasons or more to be a champion of good and then fully releasing his evil side, making him the ultimate villian and the one who needs to be stopped in the final season would have made awsome viewing. Nobody is more bad ass then Angelus nor makes a better bad guy so giving the final bad guy role to anyone else just wouldn't have been as fitting.

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Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:22 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
Building the main character up over five seasons or more to be a champion of good and then making him the ultimate villain in the final season would have made awesome viewing. Nobody is more bad ass than Angelus nor makes a better bad guy... giving the final bad guy role to anyone else just wouldn't have been as fitting.

Brilliant! I would have loved to see that!

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