Apocalypse Nowish (or Joss is the Devil) by bobknaptor

Ok, here's my whole thing on the Cordy-Connor EWWW-EWWW-EWWW-ness.

One thing I noticed about the episode was that most of Cordelia's compliments to Connor come in the form of comparisons to Angel. She notes that Angel has the nack for saying the right thing, which is something she loves about him. Then she turn around and compliments Connor for the same quality. She comments on Connor's stealthiness, saying it must be genetic. In my humble opinion, she's can't have the real Angel, so she goes for the next nearest thing.

In conclusion, EWWW!

________________

Still unhappy? Okey-doke. I've got two words that are going to take all the pain away: Miniature. Golf.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 10:54 AM

HJERMSTED

Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
Director: Vince Gillum

I'm also hoping the Buffy and Angel dilemmas are somehow tied together. At the very least, they should make the seperation of the two events somehow feasible.

However, I'm not entirely convinced that The Beast is the full-on, season long 'big bad' for Angel the series. I suspect he is dispatched by February sweeps and that Angelus is the actual big bad.

mattro

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Monday, November 18, 2002 10:58 AM

Maybe so... I like that better than the idea of the pity f*ck. It seems to me like this little adventure is going to cause much much much more chaos and struggle within the group, though.

I think that with the big impending doom, Angel could have safely slept with Cordy and NOT had his moment of perfect happiness (the curse doesn't say the moment he has an orgasm. In fact, he didn't lose his soul the moment he had sex with Buffy, he lost it later, when she fell asleep in his arms and he was holding her after sex. He didn't lose his soul with Darla.) Maybe the knowledge that the entire world could end at any minute would be stressful enough that sex with Cordy wouldn't have turned him all GRRR again.

Either way, the episode ended, for me at least, on a great big "EEEEWWWWW". I was grossed out at her kissing Connor... but sleeping with him? That's not right! I would say that has ruined any and all hope of any Angel/Cordy relationship. Angel is too good a man to steal a woman from his son, especially the one he lost his virginity to, one he so obviously loves. I think we are going to have some very awkward times ahead, even if it wasn't the big apocolypse in the air.

______________
Complete sentences... I've been working on it.

Darn that simultaneous posting...

in response to mattros statement, I would like to see this guy dispatched quickly. He was reminding me an awful lot of glory last night (in that whole "unstoppable fighting" way...). Thanks for the info. I missed it last night in the credits.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 11:15 AM

Yeah, Angel and Cordelia aren't ever going to be together. I couldn't be happier.

Oh, and as for the Angel-curse-loophole: It's a delayed reaction. Angel was drugged once with similar effects, but he didn't immediately go evil.

As for the Darla thing, Angel did not lose his soul becasue it was not a moment of pure happiness. It was a moment of pure dispair. He did not love Darla.

And as you may remember, Buffy and Angel were fairly certain it was the end of the line for both of them when they made love. Didn't seem to take the fun out of it for Angel.

The truth is that Angel and Cordy would never have worked out for the same reasons it didn't work out with Buffy. And I'm of the opinion that if all barriers were removed, and Angel could be with who he wanted to he'd be left with a choice: Buffy or Cordelia. I don't think for one minute that Angel would choose Cordy over Buffy.

I'm not saying this because I'm some scary BA Shipper that flames anyone that proposes another relationship, I'm just calling it as I see it. Even to this day, the writers continue to distinguish the Buffy-Angel relationship as something very different from other relationships on the shows. Cordelia herself described Buffy as the love of Angel's life ("Heartthrob"). In "Selfless," Buffy says that she loved Angel more than she loved or will love anything else. Quotes like these are common threads through all seasons of both shows.

In short, Angel and Cordelia could never have worked, even without the Connor-bonking. In fact, I'd have to say that the whole AC romantic plotline is the dumbest thing the writers have ever come up with. I just don't buy it.
________________

Still unhappy? Okey-doke. I've got two words that are going to take all the pain away: Miniature. Golf.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 11:17 AM

Yeah, it's probably a good thing. I've never thought that they really belonged together and was not real happy with the end whole "will they/won't they" tension at the end of last season before they both had their "I love you" epiphanies.

______________
Perky Love Muffin

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Monday, November 18, 2002 11:27 AM

Sorry. I wanted to change the wording on that post, and it turned into a massive rant. Should have made it a seperate post. Oh, well.

________________

Still unhappy? Okey-doke. I've got two words that are going to take all the pain away: Miniature. Golf.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 12:03 PM

TINYTIMM

[Either way, the episode ended, for me at least, on a great big "EEEEWWWWW". I was grossed out at her kissing Connor... but sleeping with him? That's not right!

I think it's the BIG KISS OFF. Conner is headed for that predetermined fate when he ices that villian who was so bad the evil beings turned him insubstantial. The Horny-Pointy-Thang is just a harebringer of the big fight.

Jeff
Who thinks the women of Angel need a lot of good steak dinners, with plenty potatoes!

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Monday, November 18, 2002 12:23 PM

REXRAYGUN

I have a theory...

It isn't Cordy. Did anyone else notice the strange looks that Cordy and the Big Bad were giving each other, between BB's smashing of Connor. In addition, this "Cordy" was a blank slate for several episodes, then Cordy's friends gave her Cordy's memories back. In addition, the entire time that she's been back, she's been flirting with Connor.

Seems to me that this "Cordy" is some kind of plant. She was there with the information implanted in her. which Lorne read. Why didn't he also read any of her experiences as a higher being? Because this isn't that Cordy. I think that Cordy is trapped, while this doppelganger, who delivers lines like a bad soap opera love scene every five seconds, is splitting up Angel and Connor even more. Charisma Charpenter isn't usually that bad of an actress, so i'm thinking it might be a clue.

She flirts with Connor and then gets herself into troubled spots so he can save her. She makes these big grandiose speeches to Angel, very similar to the ones that the shapeshifter on Buffy is doing to people.

I inted to keep watching to see if my theory proves true. If so, I get to tell my wife that I told her so!

Just my dos pesos,

Rex!

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Monday, November 18, 2002 12:37 PM

Well at least there will be no Angel and Cordy. I've always hated them together in a romantic sort of way, it's so forced and contrived. But Cordy and Connor, let me echo that EWWWWWWWWW. This is sort of a spoiler to explain why it happened...

Select to view spoiler:

Charisma Carpenter is pregnant in real life, so the writers have incorporated it into the story. Looks like Connor's gonna be a daddy, so the whole thing is even worse and more soap opera like than it first appeared.

This season had a good start but this ep let me down. I am so bored and unmoved by Gunn and Fred. I want them to stay together though, because I don't want Fred to make Wesley suck like she made Gunn suck. Gunn's been completely emasculated since he got with the annoying little twit. He's even terrified of cute little rats, what a tough guy.

I still love Wesley and Lilah. But blech on the whole Lilah-as-Fred scenario. Can you tell I hate Fred? She needs to stay away from Wes, but of course that won't happen.

Oh, and the Beast? Not scary at all.

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 12:40 PM

I have to disagree about Charisma not usually being that bad of an actress, though. When she tries to be dramatic instead of fun n' snarky, her performances can be hit or miss.

I love your theory. I would love for that to be what's really going on.

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 12:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Persephone:
Select to view spoiler:
Charisma Carpenter is pregnant in real life, so the writers have incorporated it into the story. Looks like Connor's gonna be a daddy, so the whole thing is even worse and more soap opera like than it first appeared.

That would explain the rack! (sorry to be crass...) My friends and I were commenting last night that her breasts were looking much larger than last season, and that they didn't appear to be silicone.

Interesting theory about Cordy being fake... that would be cool, because it would undo the ICK factor for me. (although I still wouldn't want Cordy with either Angel or Connor when it's all said and done.)

As for the Angel/Cordy/contrivey-ness... I agree. I was telling my friends last night that I have a very hard time believing that Angel lives for 240 years and never falls in love.... Then in 7 years he finds true love not once, but twice? no. His "loving" Cordelia cheapens his love for Buffy, I think. And again, I too am not one of those fanatical Buffy/Angel Shippers. I would love to see Angel date someone else, and would love Buffy to find someone else to have a real relationship with. But Angel and Cordy is a definite no-go.

______________
Call me kooky pants...

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Monday, November 18, 2002 1:29 PM

This just in from Wanda:

Select to view spoiler:

shaun401 asks: are the big bads on Buffy and Angel related? "From beneth you it devours" seems pretty much like the big bad on Angel last night.

Wanda replies: Ding! Ding! Ding! And a cupie doll for the lady.

______________
That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!

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Monday, November 18, 2002 2:48 PM

BUTCHER

If I'm not mistaken isn't Faith going to return to Buffy and Angel this season.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 3:05 PM

I don't know if this is considered spoilery or not.... but she has signed a contract for 3 episodes of Angel and 5 episodes of Buffy.

______________

Xander: We have kind of a romantic evening planned.
Anya: We are going to light candles and then have sex by them.
Faith (in Buffy): Well, we don't want to cut into that seven minutes.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 3:05 PM

MERLINDREA

Actually, I find the idea that Cordy does it out of pity quite believable - much more believable than this whole Cordy - Angel - Lovestory by the way!

I mean, imagine the situation: you sincerely believe the world is going to end and there is a friend who feels very lonely. You like him, you are not disgusted by him, so you give him a good-bye gift... I really can relate to that. However, the morning after (with the world surprisingly still existing) might prove very interesting and tense.

I think Connor will want to progress with the relationship and Cordelia does not. So he will probably get mad at her, which is not a surprise, as he is continuously mad at everybody *yawn*.

But I really hope this will put an end to the whole Angel/Cordy thing. It was sooo not believable! I hope Angel goes for the power lady - don't forget, she made his heart beat!

Merl

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Monday, November 18, 2002 3:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by merlindrea:
I hope Angel goes for the power lady - don't forget, she made his heart beat!

Merl

Her name is Gwen.

And is "Merl" a referance to the character on Angel, or is that your real name?

________________

Still unhappy? Okey-doke. I've got two words that are going to take all the pain away: Miniature. Golf.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 3:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by merlindrea:
Actually, I find the idea that Cordy does it out of pity quite believable

It's not that I find unbelievable, it was the way it was handled. Cordy's little speech was ridiculous and straight out of a soap opera. In fact, I've seen that same dumb thing on soaps countless times. It can't mean good things when I'm starting to recognize Angel plotlines from soap operas. I stopped watching soaps years ago, dammit. I'd actually find it more believable if, like someone here said, she was doing it as a way to be close to Angel. (Even though that's still blech, it's more believable than an out of the blue pity fuck.)

I really don't know if I would be thinking about sex if the world was ending, especially if I was with someone I don't really think of like that. But I guess that's one of those things you've got to experience to know.

I hope this is the end of Cordy/Angel too.

BEWARE OF SPOILER!!!

Select to view spoiler:

Gwen is coming back soon, so there will most probably be something between her and Angel. Yay!

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 5:47 PM

REXRAYGUN

Quote:
Originally posted by Persephone:
Cordy's little speech was ridiculous and straight out of a soap opera. In fact, I've seen that same dumb thing on soaps countless times. It can't mean good things when I'm starting to recognize Angel plotlines from soap operas. I stopped watching soaps years ago, dammit.

That's what sets off my "It's not Cordy" radar. It's like the Cordy-thing is making speeches all the time. It seems like a set up.

Just my dos pesos,

Rex!

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Monday, November 18, 2002 8:44 PM

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Quote:
Originally posted by Persephone:
Quote:
Originally posted by merlindrea:
Actually, I find the idea that Cordy does it out of pity quite believable

It's not that I find unbelievable, it was the way it was handled. Cordy's little speech was ridiculous and straight out of a soap opera. In fact, I've seen that same dumb thing on soaps countless times. It can't mean good things when I'm starting to recognize Angel plotlines from soap operas. I stopped watching soaps years ago, dammit. I'd actually find it more believable if, like someone here said, she was doing it as a way to be close to Angel. (Even though that's still blech, it's more believable than an out of the blue pity fuck.)

The writing might not have been the best for that little bit, but I for one felt the emotion behind it. And I don't think it came out of the blue at all. Its been leading up to this since Cordy came back. Calling it pity is a little harsh too. I believe Cordy was doing it as much for herself as for Connor. Considering the way things have gone for her since she got back, why wouldn't she need something 'real' too?

And if that theory about it not really being Cordy is true I will stop watching this show. Its just such a cop-out.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Monday, November 18, 2002 11:11 PM

ESME

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:

First, I have to say, two VERY disturbing sex scenes in this episode.

Double EEEEEWWWWWWW. I cringed and cringed. Especially Lilah! I didn't get it for a minute...the Fred part I mean. Lilah's worst scene ever, and I LOVE Lilah!

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
And if that theory about it not really being Cordy is true I will stop watching this show. Its just such a cop-out.

I like that theory for purely selfish reasons. Mainly because Cordy is just pissing me off, and I really hate the Cordy/Connor development. But you are so right that it would be a cop out, and I really don't think ME would pull that. It sort of reminds me of Buffy last year, when Buffy was acting crazy with Spike and sort of blaming it on the fact that she came back "wrong." And then it turned out that she wasn't "wrong" at all and it just killed her. ME didn't cop out then and I doubt they will do it now.

Calling it pity might be harsh, but that's totally the way she sold it. Like I said, my main problem with that scene was the speech beforehand. Well, and the way my eyes exploded from my head on seeing humping between Connor and Cordy.

If Cordy was doing it for herself as well, because he makes her feel close to Angel or for more ambiguous reasons, that would certainly be more interesting. Still squicky, though. He's like a child in so many ways that have nothing to do with age. Not to mention he's the child of the guy she had just declared her love for a few hours earlier. Which, coupled with CC's bad acting, just returns us to the soap opera theme. I'm still going to tune in to see how this story is handled though, because since this is Angel I have to believe that things aren't as bad as they seem.

I can't believe there's no new Angel until January. Good thing they didn't give an exciting cliffhanger.

Hey JG, where does that "ear" quote come from? I don't remember it.

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:21 AM

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Its from the original pilot. Great scene too.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 3:09 AM

I guess AICN's Herc and I are the only ones that thinks the whole Lilah-Wesley scene was brilliant. It was gross and wrong and icky, but it was a very well done scene.

If you notice the part where Wes orders Lilah to keep the glasses on, the play of emotions across her face, she was not very happy about it. That whole scene didn't go the way she had intended. I get the impression that Lilah somehow wanted Wesley to honestly deny that he liked Fred, or tell her that he loved Lilah more or something... I think that Lilah on some level is seriously worried that Wes does not love her. Talk about a conflict of interset. So yeah, it was an icky, perverted scene. But it works...

...Unlike (prepare for a dig here) the Connor-Cordy thing. EWWW!

________________

I swear by my pretty flowered bonnet I will end you.

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:40 AM

BULBUS

Yeah, I thought the Wes/ Lilah(in Fred-mode) was kinda ewww..., but it DID work, and I loved the subtle way she reacted when he told her to keep the glasses on. She seemed hurt by that, angry that he did have a thing for Fred, but she still wanted him. Relationships are complicated and very rarely neat things. The Wes/Lilah definetely falls under the messy catagory

And for The Beast being related to Morphy in Buffy, did anyone take a good look at the sigil Jonathon (sob) bled all over? If I'm not mistaken, it was a representation of the Beast. If anyone has a screen cap of it and can post it, that's great. It's too bad that you only heard the Beast talk once, if it was more, we could have more opportunities to link the two, since Morphy has done nothing but talk and decieve people in Buffy, which fits in neatly with the whole, "Prince of Lies" thing.

Some people have sugested that Cordy is a fake or a deception, (Maybe even another Morphy copycat) Who knows? I don't know, if it is a fake, it's a good one. I don't think so though, and I kinda agree with the people who said she slept with COnner to sorta, "have the next best thing to Angel" in her mind. She did see and feel him live his life as Angelus (when did that happen, because in the first few eps, she didn't seem bothered by it at all, I guess that'll be answered when we find out how she came back at all). So yeah, she knows every deep, dark thing Angel ever did, and how good it made him feel. Even with the "it was me, it was my soulless evil half" excuse, that's a lot to get around, maybe too much. Could anyone feel the same way about someone if they discovered that they, say... attempted to rape a girl they were obsessed with? *cough SPIKE cough* Even though she loved him, that's a lot to get around.

And with the end of the world happening, fire raining down from the heavens, all your lover's old "greatest hits" playing non-stop in your mind, yeah, you can get kinda wigged out and do something you normally wouldn't do. I can understand it, but I'm not very happy about it

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:08 AM

BULBUS

Spoiler coming, or a question about future events, don't read if you don't want to....

....

....

....

Select to view spoiler:

(Okay, if they have to bring back Angelus to combat the Beast, my quetion is why? Angel looked like he was doing fine, okay he got tossed off the roof and his own weapon fed back to him, but is Angelus really the solution. From what I remember of Angelus (WAY back in Buffy season 2) he didn't really strike me as a "fighter" per say. He was more a nasty sort of planner, not the guy to go out and acutally do the deed. Remember, before Buffy, Angel was the one to leave when the Slayer came around. He never willingly fought her, Spike was about the only one to actively seek her out and tell the tale. It seems to me that all they need is some more back up, like Faith for instance, and maybe a way to peirce that thick hide of his.)

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 8:24 AM

KIKI

Quote:
Originally posted by RexRaygun:
I have a theory...

Seems to me that this "Cordy" is some kind of plant. She was there with the information implanted in her. which Lorne read. Why didn't he also read any of her experiences as a higher being? Because this isn't that Cordy. I think that Cordy is trapped, while this doppelganger, who delivers lines like a bad soap opera love scene every five seconds, is splitting up Angel and Connor even more. Charisma Charpenter isn't usually that bad of an actress, so i'm thinking it might be a clue.

She flirts with Connor and then gets herself into troubled spots so he can save her. She makes these big grandiose speeches to Angel, very similar to the ones that the shapeshifter on Buffy is doing to people.

----------------------------------------

Hey Rex...I really enjoyed reading your theory...and an pretty promising theory too especially if it turns out to be the REAL DEAL!!

I noticed all of the same signs ever since Cordy came back, and yahhh, i'll admit, TOO SUSPECTING. Hope Joss makes it so!! Can't wait 2 c next new ep.

Kiki
BizzGal@aol.com

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 8:32 AM

KIKI

Hey great point about the power lady...I 4get her name...Anyhow, that'll definately be a twist if she comes back 2 the show & work out a lil' "electricity" on Angel again. LoL

Kiki
BizzGal@aol.com

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 9:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kiki:
Hey great point about the power lady...I 4get her name...Anyhow, that'll definately be a twist if she comes back 2 the show & work out a lil' "electricity" on Angel again. LoL

Kiki
BizzGal@aol.com

Gwen's the name.

________________

I swear by my pretty flowered bonnet I will end you.

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 11:18 AM

I love Gwen. I really really hope she comes back. I think that she will. Joss is great at that... introducing a character for one episode, you think you've seen the last of them... then.... WELCOME BACK! :)

______________
I’m fibbing. It’s lying only classier

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 2:23 PM

MERLINDREA

Merl is short for Merlindrea - thats the name I use since I started with text muds back when I was still a young student ... long long time ago...

Merl

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 2:41 PM

I thought at first that the name Merlindrea came from the movie "Willow" with Val Kilmer back in the 80's, so I went to Google to search. I found a whole lot of YOU when I searched there. :) was pretty funny. Google has all kinds of stuff from these boards up there. :)

Anyway, wondering why your name reminded me of Willow, I went to IMDB to find it, and I couldn't find the name (or the actress) who played the queen of the fairies who appeared to Willow to tell him to protect Elora Danan from the evil queen. The more I think about it, the more I think the characters name was Shearlindrea or Cherlindrea or something like that, but I can't remember, and the all-knowing IMDB doesn't seem to know. Does anyone else remember?

______________
She is Elora Danan, the future princess or Tir Asleen! And the last thing she's gonna want is a hairy chest!

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 2:45 PM

CHARLIEBLUE

Actually, the IMDB does know. The Full Cast & Crew page for Willow lists her as "Cherlindrea."
http://us.imdb.com/Credits?0096446

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 2:55 PM

Sometimes it just takes an extra pair of eyes! Thank you! I was looking at that darn list for several minutes and couldn't find her listed!

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 7:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
Its from the original pilot. Great scene too.

I'm jealous of all you who have seen the pilot. Can't wait til Fox finally airs it.

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Monday, December 2, 2002 10:11 AM

MERLINDREA

Quote:

I went to Google to search. I found a whole lot of YOU when I searched there. :) was pretty funny

uiuiui, I better go to Google and have a look myself ;-). I am afraid somewhere is even a picture of my younger self...

But even though Cherlindrea sounds very similar (I never thought about it before), I choose the name as a feminine version of Merlin - not sure what that says about myself, though ;-).

Merl

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Tuesday, December 3, 2002 9:40 AM

ZEKE023

Bobknaptor wrote:
I was very disappointed to see Joss using the Christianized idea of the devil for this unstoppable demon. "...etc.

You know... despite what people say, Joss's universe is VERY christian. VERY chistian.

The Cross: In universes like white wolf's role-playing games or Ann Rice's books... cross's don't work. But in BTVS they do... not even the faith behind it.. the mere symbol of the cross repels vampires. Even the Jewish character, willow, puts crosses on her wall to ward off Angelus in the second season.

Holy water: It gets used here and there (even in the unaired pilot). Holy water is pretty christian. I really don't know of any other traditions that use it like Christians do.

The Scapular: anybody remember in the second season when Willow hands out Scapulars to the gang? The Scapular is (or in most cases refers to) a Virgin Mary tradition. It is a warding tool that is strictly catholic.

The Crucifiction: Who can forget the first scene where Spike actually talks. He rants to the Anointed One about vampires at the crucifiction and how lots of vampires like to claim that they were there.

SMG had to read the bible in its entirety before acting in the show.

I could go on and on. Fact is... the show's cosmology is Christian. Almost entirely, although it is rather subtle. And as for other gods... have you noticed that all the other gods mentioned in the show are dark or selfish? The use of magic is real, but unless given to you by the powers, it corrupts you and destroys you from the inside?

I would say you may be right: it probably is bad to bash Greek gods like Pan... but hey... that's the way the show has been written from the start. Even in the first halloween episode with Janus being a dark and sinister god.

I'm near completion to my Masters in comparative religion. You would be amazed at the research that this show does to be acurate to various religions... and how subtle they are used. But make no mistake... Whedon's world is a Christian one. -- Even if Buffy isn't. But let's face it... if she were... half the viewers wouldn't watch.

http://www.thedoormagazine.com/archives/buffy.html

check this link out. Lots of people think that Buffy not only takes place in a Christian cosmology, but actually teaches fairly good ethics. This magazine is a satire magazine (a little more intellegent than most christian periodicals), but although it puts it forth in a humorous way... well, just read.

-Zeke

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Wednesday, January 8, 2003 10:44 AM