Can Joss do no wrong?? by OPPYH

ANGELUS ARCANUM

Can Joss do no wrong??

POSTED BY: OPPYH
UPDATED: Monday, September 6, 2004 23:53
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 6586
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Tuesday, August 31, 2004 9:32 PM

Alright, I am a guy who loves Buffy the Vampire Slayer. That's what got me into this whole crazy Firefly loving, crazy for Fox Friday, angry at Fox for cancelling Firefly mode. Watching Buffy, was an experience. Let me set the tone. It's a Friday evening, early October in Michigan 1988. Myself, and three friends are playing Dungeons and Dragons, with tons of Cool Ranch Doritos, Pepsi products, and Dominos pizza boxes amongst Monster Manuals, and graph paper. We play all night long, in my friends basement. We are so into the fantasy realm, I'm seeing goblins, and displacer beasts on the ceiling. It was a fantastic borderline magical experience. Sorry for being so descriptive, but it's the only thing I loved about being a teenager. Ahead to 1999, I find out about Buffy, get hooked, and realize that I feel the same for a tv show, as I do the high points in my life. It was that good.
When I heard about Firefly, I had to watch it. From the previews on Fox I could tell two things. 1. It was science fiction. 2. It was going to be very different science fiction. The Train Job was solid, and I liked it a lot, but as a series I didn't think I would like it as well as Buffy. I was wrong. by the 3rd ep. I was super hooked. Then Fox got stupid, and cancelled the best show on tv. It's not that I hate the present state of television, but if I don't see an ep. of C.S.I, I'm not going to care. I can't say that of anything Joss related. I hope the cancellation of Firefly hasn't ruined any ideas of a new show from Joss Whedon. If he can find a network that will stand behind him 100%, and give him complete control of a series without a DANGER, YOUR SHOW WILL BE CANCELLED IF YOU DON'T DO AS WE SAY sign hanging above every exit, we may have another brilliant tv show.
P.S. ASTONISHING X-MEN ROCKS!!

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Wednesday, September 1, 2004 12:45 AM

GROUNDED

While I do agree with what you're saying, why is this in Angelus Arcanum?

And "Can Joss do no wrong?" - well go rewatch Buffy ep Family. *shudders*

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Wednesday, September 1, 2004 5:42 AM

DIETCOKE

I'm with you - he can do no wrong! I'm a middle-aged corporate type who wouldn't have dreamed of watching something with the name "Buffy" in it, until my job was eliminated and I had way too much time on my hands. So, in the last year, through reruns, I discovered "Buffy," "Angel," and now "Firefly."

I'm not a Sci-Fi fan. I'm more inclined to watch PBS, the BBC, or take in an art-house film. But Joss' writing, his characers, story telling, and delicious sense of humor has absolutely blown me away!

How lucky we are to have discovered him! We are not alone.

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Wednesday, September 1, 2004 7:19 AM

PERIDIDDLE

Quote:
And "Can Joss do no wrong?" - well go rewatch Buffy ep Family. *shudders*

I'm on subject and off subject here...but what was wrong with Family? HMMMMMM?

(I'm very protective over my favorite episodes)

And Joss, simply put, is brilliant. His ideas, his worlds, his characters, the way he writes and how his characters talk, the heart and soul he puts into his work...every episode leaves me in awe (well, maybe not Helpless ala season 3 of Buffy, as it has a very distinct season 1 feel, but I don't hate it...^_^) I can't wait for Serenity...two + hours of that brilliance and devotion, plus my favorite Joss show! Yay!

-Maddy

"Bwaa...it's kind of a warrior...strikes fear into the hearts of..."

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Wednesday, September 1, 2004 8:32 AM

CHILLI

Family is pretty dreadful. Amends is sub-par for Joss. Lessons was a let-down. Dopplegand was strangely mediocre.

He can do wrong. Just not often.

Season Six coulda used him. I'm not happy that he seemed to turn his back on Buffy. The last two Seasons seem very anti-Joss. It ceased being fun, and started being deriative (save for Selfless and Conversations With Dead People... they were both awesome.)

:)

Ian

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Wednesday, September 1, 2004 9:09 AM

GROUNDED

Selfless and CWDP weren't all that hot either. I thought they were good first run but when I saw them again I wondered what I'd seen in them first time round. Holden is, of course, great though.

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Wednesday, September 1, 2004 9:42 AM

RHUTTNER

Joss can do wrong and has. There is a major problem with the creation of Dawn. Now before you jump to any conclusions, I'm not saying that I don't like the character or that adding her was a mistake. I'm saying her explaination was a mistake.

The key was originally energy. The monks were in charge of protecting the key from Glory. They knew that it could be used to open all the dimensions so that she could return home. So to protect the key from falling into Glory's hands, they turned it into a human form - Dawn, and put her in the custody of the Slayer.

But the key to using the key was the spilling of its blood. If the monks wanted to protect the key, why did they turn it into the very thing Glory needed to use it? They should have turned the key into a stone and put it in the Slayer's backyard. Afterall, you can't squeeze blood from a stone.

I'm not going to accept the explaination that the monks didn't know about the blood. They were able to convert the key, they were able to change the memories of hundreds if not thousands of people, and they were able to transport Dawn to Sunnydale, but they didn't know how to use the key???? Sorry, thats weak.

Yes Joss is a genius, but like the key he is human and can make mistakes. But even his mistakes are better than other peoples successes.

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Wednesday, September 1, 2004 10:00 AM

OPPYH

Sorry for posting here. Thought I was in the general discussion thread. Illyria rules!!!

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Wednesday, September 1, 2004 10:16 AM

BIKISDAD

Quote:
Originally posted by rhuttner:

Yes Joss is a genius, but like the key he is human and can make mistakes. But even his mistakes are better than other peoples successes.

I generally agree. The worst episode Joss ever wrote is still 1000% better than any of the tripe that currently clogs the airwaves. There are so many layers to the episodes he writes that you can interpret them many different ways, depending on your point of view. No other shows on tv could ever say that. By the way, I loved "Family" and "Doppelgangland" is my single favorite episode of Buffy. I just see different things in them than some of you apparently do.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

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Wednesday, September 1, 2004 1:20 PM

MALLORY

Quote:
Originally posted by Chilli:
Family is pretty dreadful. Amends is sub-par for Joss. Lessons was a let-down. Dopplegand was strangely mediocre.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but you're not explaining WHY you think Family is "pretty dreadful" and so on. Just because you say something, doesn't make it so. You can have your opinion--I would just like to know WHY it's your opinion.

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Friday, September 3, 2004 5:06 AM

IDEFIX

just don't fight over it.

I think that's what makes the shows so good that we can't agree on what the bad EPs/story acs/seasons/characters... are. there's always gonna be someone who thinks something is bad or just doesn't like it. but if most of the fans agree they don't like something than it's bad (or they are sheep following a leader but that's another debate).

there's nothing bad about family except for the family and that's what's supposed to be bad. it's about finding a new family when the original one sucks. and spike hitting tara to make a point and actually be pleased that it hurts him is one of the great moments. just my opinion though. feel free to hate the EP, I have no problem with that.

I love season 6 because everything's falling apart, I don't need my tv to be funny and nice, as long as it's good and deep and real somehow. I tend to overlook the small inconsistencies as long as it feels real. and everything falling to pieces appropos of nothing feels absolutely real to me at this point. just think about the scene when buffy tells giles everything that happened and waits for him to throw a hissy-fit or whatever and he just starts laughing because there's nothing he could do and laughter is what buffy needs most.

about the key and blood thing, I understood it that way: the form of the key shaped the form it had to be used it was the bloodletting because the key was in human form not the other way around. if it had been an object it would have to be used in a different way. the energy needed to flow into a specific place at a specific point of time that's what was given, how that was accomplished was dependant on the form of the key. but they never explained it all that much.

but that's actually something I love about Joss' shows, they make you think about things instead of giving you every single detail.

Idefix

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Friday, September 3, 2004 7:41 AM

KINGPAUSE

Hey, I love the guy, and he is the guy responsible for two of the greatest television shows of all time (I won't tell you which), but for anyone who thinks the guy can do no wrong, I have only two words:

ALIEN RESURRECTION

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Friday, September 3, 2004 8:09 AM

STANDING8

astonishing xmen is getting really good.

-Soul Rebel-

a love supreme dreaming...

http://www.livejournal.com/users/standing8

updated: 7/30/04!

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Friday, September 3, 2004 11:33 PM

GROUNDED

"as long as it's good and deep and real somehow"

Season 6 was none of the above after Tabula Rasa. The dialogue is woeful, the plotting is sub-soap opera and half the cast has nothing to do while Spike and Buffy are off 'making bad decisions'...

Alien Resurrection: Apparently Joss had very little to do with the version that actually made it to film.

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Saturday, September 4, 2004 12:45 AM

IDEFIX

and all of that isn't proven in any way. it seems to be a matter of taste.

I loved the Xander/Anya storyline with him deciding much too late and also just in time that he wasn't ready to be married and her going back into the vengeance business because of it. and Willow's descent into darkness is one of the most fascinating stories in all of the buffyverse for me. I didn't care too much for the geek-trio story but that after TR there was nothing more than Spike and Buffy making bad decisions isn't true. and for my taste that was a very good story too, her using him to feel something and then realising it. and I liked the EP "Normal Again" it was a sweet way of saying 'and maybe this is all a fantasy' which it is of course. and Amy got de-rat-ed. I loved to have her back. the longer I think about it the more I find to like about the second half of season 6. so I really can't agree with you.

there was no Giles and there wasn't too much Dawn but all the others got their fair share I think.

Idefix

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Saturday, September 4, 2004 10:43 AM

GROUNDED

Normal Again is mightily overrated. It's a decent enough premise, but it's also a story used many times over in various other shows/stories and NA doesn't really add anything new to it. I'm not saying you shouldn't like S6 etc., I'm saying that thematically and stylistically, S6 was a step down from what had gone before.

Read this:

http://www.boilsandblindingtorment.com/Wrecked.htm

A lot of what they say carries over to the rest of latter S6.

"Willow's descent into darkness is one of the most fascinating stories in all of the buffyverse for me"

She gets addicted to magic and her girlfriend gets killed - that's barely 2-dimensional as descents into darkness go. I'm not sure why this one didn't work out because ME seem generally good at making these things convincing (see Wesley Wyndam-Pryce, the Life and Times of).

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Sunday, September 5, 2004 1:17 PM

NEDWARD

I think Family is a lot like (for example) Objects in Space, in that if you get where Joss is coming from, it works very well. If you don't get what the point was, you're not going to have such good memories of it. Different eps for different folks, but I shed a tear for Family.

And did anyone else think Tabula Rasa had a lot of connections to that ep? They seemed linked to me somehow (happened to see both tonight, out of order).

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Sunday, September 5, 2004 2:09 PM

BIKISDAD

Quote:
Originally posted by nedward:
I think Family is a lot like (for example) Objects in Space, in that if you get where Joss is coming from, it works very well. If you don't get what the point was, you're not going to have such good memories of it. Different eps for different folks, but I shed a tear for Family.

And did anyone else think Tabula Rasa had a lot of connections to that ep? They seemed linked to me somehow (happened to see both tonight, out of order).

I agree with you on "Family". I loved it as well. The whole idea of Buffy, Dawn, et al, accepting Tara into their extended family was great. And having even Spike help out made it really special.

Hadn't thought about a connection between "Family" and "TR". I'll have to try watching them back-to-back and see what I think.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

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Monday, September 6, 2004 6:37 AM

CHILLI

There are two reasons why I dislike Family.

1) It's full of saccharine. Joss really lays everything in on too thick.

2) The only reason The Gang appears to stick up for Tara is because Her Family have such pathlogically screwed up agendas. I don't get the impression they know, or like, Her any better than when the episode started. It'd have been nice if it was more of a gradual change, and not a big twist near the end of Act Four.

This is Chilli, signing off.

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Monday, September 6, 2004 7:10 AM

CALLIOPE79

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
"as long as it's good and deep and real somehow"

Season 6 was none of the above after Tabula Rasa. The dialogue is woeful, the plotting is sub-soap opera and half the cast has nothing to do while Spike and Buffy are off 'making bad decisions'...

Just to put in my two cents, and I'm not saying you're wrong, because everyone is entitled to the way they feel about it... but personally, Season 6 was one of my absolute favourites. I thought it told an amazing story, and I loved that things got hard and gritty and dark. Sometimes that's the best way to really feel out the characters -- seeing them at their lowest point. Sure, Season 6 had some highs and lows but I think the former far outweighed the latter. I honestly don't think there was any other direction for the plot to go after what happened with Buffy's death and resurrection. It was hard to watch at times, but as other people in this thread already mentioned... the most important thing is that it makes you feel something. Season 6 does that for me more than any other. I stand by what my profile says.. Joss is a genious

Hope I didn't step on any toes.. and definitely feel free to disagree with me, but please play nice

~*~ Calliope Lang

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Monday, September 6, 2004 9:05 AM

BIKISDAD

Quote:
Originally posted by Chilli:
There are two reasons why I dislike Family.

1) It's full of saccharine. Joss really lays everything in on too thick.

2) The only reason The Gang appears to stick up for Tara is because Her Family have such pathlogically screwed up agendas. I don't get the impression they know, or like, Her any better than when the episode started. It'd have been nice if it was more of a gradual change, and not a big twist near the end of Act Four.

This is Chilli, signing off.

Funny, I thought the "only" reason they accepted Tara was that Willow did, and therefore so did the rest of the "family". As with most things from Joss, it seems that there is more than one "only" reason.

Also, I don't know why you consider this episode to be saccharine, other than the fact that it has a happy ending (which is admittedly rare in the Joss 'verse). If that's the case, then "The Prom" and other similar episodes must also be saccharine. I guess I must just like artificial sweeteners?

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

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Monday, September 6, 2004 10:32 AM

NEDWARD

Quote:
Originally posted by Chilli:
There are two reasons why I dislike Family.

I agree its tone is cheerier than average, but then ME is setting up the Happy Couple of the show, so why not? You need some light to make out the dark.

Quote:
The only reason The Gang appears to stick up for Tara is because Her Family have such pathlogically screwed up agendas. I don't get the impression they know, or like, Her any better than when the episode started. It'd have been nice if it was more of a gradual change, and not a big twist near the end of Act Four.

I didn't see it like that. Sure, the Maclays are two-bit white trash, but I think Buffy's prepared to let them take Tara, until Willow makes Tara admit she's leaving against her will. It's only then that Buffy decides the Maclays have forfeited the right to be Tara's family.

I don't see it as the "this is why we now love Tara" ep, more a case of Joss defining what family should mean. For me, the ep shows the gang don't really know Tara - and still don't at the end. Buffy does what she does because of how Tara's being trampled on, not because she's their friend. My 2p.

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Monday, September 6, 2004 11:08 AM

CHILLI

I think it is saccharine because it goes overboard on the emotions.

Nothing is understated in the episode. Everything seems completely melodramatic. It doesn't play like a Joss episode, rather something that, oh say, Marti Noxon would write.

Joss's eps usually have a spark.

But, I shall watch it again tomorrow anyway. See if my opinon changes.

This is Chilli, signing off.

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Monday, September 6, 2004 11:53 PM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by Calliope79:

Just to put in my two cents, and I'm not saying you're wrong, because everyone is entitled to the way they feel about it... but personally, Season 6 was one of my absolute favourites. I thought it told an amazing story, and I loved that things got hard and gritty and dark. Sometimes that's the best way to really feel out the characters -- seeing them at their lowest point. Sure, Season 6 had some highs and lows but I think the former far outweighed the latter. I honestly don't think there was any other direction for the plot to go after what happened with Buffy's death and resurrection. It was hard to watch at times, but as other people in this thread already mentioned... the most important thing is that it makes you feel something. Season 6 does that for me more than any other. I stand by what my profile says.. Joss is a genious

Hope I didn't step on any toes.. and definitely feel free to disagree with me, but please play nice

~*~ Calliope Lang

I agree it's good to go to dark places sometimes, but I just felt S6 failed in telling dark stories well. The Willow addiction story is tragically cliched - making a character addicted to magic is NOT character development. The Buffy/Spike thing was disturbing (although obviously it was supposed to be!) but they didn't really do a hell of a lot with it except show them having sex in ridiculous places. The characters were all distanced from themselves throughout the season - I felt absolutely no emotional connection to any of them after the last moments of Tabula Rasa. As a group, Buffy, Willow, Xander, Spike, Anya and Dawn just don't work to enable good stories.

Family: Saccharine was exactly the right choice of word. It made me feel like I was being bludgeoned over the head while someone shouted "You must like Tara!" at the top of their voice. To be brutally honest, Tara is quite possibly the most redundant character in the history of the Buffyverse. After her interesting introduction in Hush she faded into the scenery, existing purely to prove that Willow is 'gay'. Go watch the end of S4+S5. Every scene with the two of them is about how much they're in love and how they fit so good together. It might have been cute at first but it grates very quickly. They did a similar thing with Oz and Willow but dealt with it far more effectively and subtley.

Apologies to the many Tara fans out there but I needed to rant ;)

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