Season 4 opinions? by RhymePhile

ANGELUS ARCANUM

Season 4 opinions?

POSTED BY: RHYMEPHILE
UPDATED: Saturday, June 25, 2005 07:25
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VIEWED: 17317
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Wednesday, September 15, 2004 11:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

I wish Charisma hadn't gotten pregnant though. Then we could have avoided the weird sex scene with Cordy and Conner. That was just disturbing.

To be honest, I wouldn't have cared so much about C/C if they hadn't shown the sex scene. Quite frankly it was unnecessary - all Angel needed to see was them kissing. This and the Angel/Cordy scene in Awakening were 'turn away now' moments.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

I was never afraid of Jasmine at all though. Maybe when she went nuts after her little glammer was broken but before that she seemed about as powerful as Amy turning herself into a rat in Buffy. It had been well established that love spells were pretty easy to cast in Buffy. That's all Jasmine ever seemed to pull off just on a wide scale. The big bad could have been Xander at that point. And it all just seemed like a matter of time before the group found some little trick to finish everything.

That's a problem with the Buffyverse as a whole - they make it a little too easy to affect massive changes. I watched Superstar today - if Jonathon can make everyone believe he's a superstar, why can't every other guy?

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

The beast was scary to me. He always seemed to be one step ahead of the gang. The fight scene before the rain of fire was probably my favorite from all of the Buffyverse. Angel's team really threw everything they had at him and the beast took them out. If only Joss had the beast kill one of our beloved heroes off could that have been any better. It would have left the team down and out...with their backs to the wall. Those are the times when everyone really shines.

I hated that fight scene. People getting thrown about on wires does not (necessarily) a good fight scene make. And the introduction of guns was a big disappointment.

Rhymephile: Lorne is pretty much always in character because they rarely do anything to advance him. Which was fair enough for his guest appearances but really he should have had more to do for S4/5. I'm bitter, oh yes ;) Wes is the opposite - he's been developed every single year, and heavily so. There are probably one or two things I'd say are out of character for him (kissing Fred in S4 for one, and the use of guns) but largely they get him, and his dialogue, right. I just wish I hadn't seen all those Wes/Lilah scenes... ;)

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Thursday, September 16, 2004 6:36 AM

ZEEK

While this is quite random at this point...did anyone else think The First made a cameo in Angel Season 4 as Lilah? When wes is cutting off dead lilah's head and all? Just curious.

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Thursday, September 16, 2004 8:16 AM

RHYMEPHILE

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
...*snip* Wes is the opposite - he's been developed every single year, and heavily so. There are probably one or two things I'd say are out of character for him (kissing Fred in S4 for one, and the use of guns) but largely they get him, and his dialogue, right. I just wish I hadn't seen all those Wes/Lilah scenes... ;)

I agree with you about Lorne, because it seemed the writers could never find a niche for him. In a way, he's kinda like Kaylee of the group. Wouldn't hurt a fly, happy-go-lucky, friends with everyone. But Kaylee is integral to the ship, whereas Lorne...comments on things and talks to contacts we never see.

As for Wes, we know he always had a thing for Fred, but I wish he would have kissed her earlier. I did like Gunn and Fred together though, oddly enough. They had great chemistry. Wes kissing her in "Spin the Bottle" was a little out of left field, but in that same scene we hear Wes' reason about the guns. Gunn is the muscle, Wes is the brains, and when Gunn grabs Wes' arm, he says something to the effect of: "Not all of us can rely on muscle."

I think, also, as you said with Wes' character progression that him getting the heavy firepower is in-character. Why are using propulsion weapons any different than using a battle axe if it will still kill the demon? Wes is using his head here, and using technology to push the odds a little more in his favor. Hell, even Buffy used the bazooka in that ep with the Big Blue Baddie that Spike, Dru, and Angelus conjured back in, um, I don't recall the season. Two? Three? What would have happened if she simply shot all the supernatural critters instead of laboring in a drag-out fight every time? Well, not as cool, maybe, but Wes is dealing the way he knows how.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

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Thursday, September 16, 2004 10:25 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
Why are using propulsion weapons any different than using a battle axe if it will still kill the demon? Wes is using his head here, and using technology to push the odds a little more in his favor. Hell, even Buffy used the bazooka in that ep with the Big Blue Baddie that Spike, Dru, and Angelus conjured back in, um, I don't recall the season. Two? Three? What would have happened if she simply shot all the supernatural critters instead of laboring in a drag-out fight every time? Well, not as cool, maybe, but Wes is dealing the way he knows how.

It's more a matter of prinicipal than character for me. They should never have introduced guns into the hands of the 'good guys' of the Buffyverse - they'd managed up until now without doing it, why start? It ended up producing a load of poor Matrix-ripoff scenes.

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Friday, September 17, 2004 3:04 AM

RHYMEPHILE

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
It ended up producing a load of poor Matrix-ripoff scenes.

We'll agree to disagree about that scene. I think it was one of their most effective battle sequences in a long time. The martial arts were well-done, the wire tricks were cool (Angel/Mark Massa doing a back flip, and him flying into the pillar), and Alexis Denisof only blinks once when he's firing both the handguns and the shotgun. It looks cool as hell. That in itself makes it rank up there among the best scenes in the Buffyverse.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

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Friday, September 17, 2004 3:56 AM

GROUNDED

Quite honestly, it almost felt like parody to me. When Wesley empties the two pistols and then pulls out the shotgun from his jacket I was like - eh?? I don't want to labour the point, because you obviously enjoyed the scene, but it just seemed wrong to me.

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Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:12 AM

EST120

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Quite honestly, it almost felt like parody to me. When Wesley empties the two pistols and then pulls out the shotgun from his jacket I was like - eh?? I don't want to labour the point, because you obviously enjoyed the scene, but it just seemed wrong to me.

really? i loved that. thought it was way cool. the slow down-speed up filming made it look really flashy on screen. of course, i am looking at it from a visual image standpoint and not concerning the characters. still, it was the scene that sealed wesley as my favorite character.

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Friday, October 1, 2004 1:35 PM

GROUNDED

When did you start watching? All you need to see is the end of Five By Five to seal Wesley as favourite ;)

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Friday, October 1, 2004 3:14 PM

EST120

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
When did you start watching? All you need to see is the end of Five By Five to seal Wesley as favourite ;)

i started watching about midway through season 3 and i am up to the first quarter of season 5 right now. wesley is the best.

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Saturday, October 2, 2004 12:22 AM

JENDANDY

Hmmm...

Just jumping in here, been reading some of this thread (it's very long!) and some theories you all have about S4 are pretty enlightening, as I found a lot of it to be confusing as heck.

I've got much love for this season. Jasmine was a cool concept but a little bit 'talky' and that got old sometimes. Cordy was one of the worst Big Bads ever and she and Conner getting it on was weird and wrong. I also found it to be a tad melodramatic at times (Salvage is one I can remember in particular...the scene where Wes gets Faith out of prison). But for all it's imperfectness it was cool and big and arc-y and stylish.

But hey now...has this been asked before? What's with the maggots and rotting Jasmine flesh? Is it because she's really old? LOL I don't get it!!
And if Angel had to actually look at Jasmine (Fred too!) to see her 'true' face, then why did the rest of them only need their blood to be mixed with Cordy's to figure out what she was? As far as I know, Gunn, Wes, and Lorne never got to see Jasmine, so how did they just know?

Sig Rebel

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Saturday, October 2, 2004 1:21 AM

AMNESIAC

In order to accept the really weird twists and turns of season 4 of angel, I just started thinking of them as ingredients to the spell jasmine needed to cast to come into existence. The power to take over the world with a smile (literally) must take allot of doing. So the blotting out the sun, and the rain of fire were to Jasmine to take over the world, as hornwort, and sage are to Willow for one of her wonky locator spells.

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Saturday, October 2, 2004 5:25 AM

CAPTAINCDC

Quote:
Originally posted by JenDandy:
Hmmm...

Just jumping in here, been reading some of this thread (it's very long!) and some theories you all have about S4 are pretty enlightening, as I found a lot of it to be confusing as heck.

I've got much love for this season. Jasmine was a cool concept but a little bit 'talky' and that got old sometimes. Cordy was one of the worst Big Bads ever and she and Conner getting it on was weird and wrong. I also found it to be a tad melodramatic at times (Salvage is one I can remember in particular...the scene where Wes gets Faith out of prison). But for all it's imperfectness it was cool and big and arc-y and stylish.

But hey now...has this been asked before? What's with the maggots and rotting Jasmine flesh? Is it because she's really old? LOL I don't get it!!
And if Angel had to actually look at Jasmine (Fred too!) to see her 'true' face, then why did the rest of them only need their blood to be mixed with Cordy's to figure out what she was? As far as I know, Gunn, Wes, and Lorne never got to see Jasmine, so how did they just know?

Sig Rebel

There was a mental connection between Jasmine and her followers, like a tether. When Fred was exposed to Jasmine's blood, unbeknownst to her, she started to get very emotional. She thought she was upset because of the shirt or that it was her fault that Jasmine got hurt in the first place. She knew that she missed Jasmine when she was not around, but thought that was it. She just needed to be around Jasmine again so that she can go back to feeling like her old Fred self. But, she was wrong, the uneasy feeling Fred had been experiencing was due to the fact that the spell Jasmine had over her was broken. When Angel was exposed to Jasmine's blood in the book store, Jasmine was there. All he had to do was look at her. I think if she had not been there then it would have been pretty much like it was with Fred for Angel (maybe without all the crying). As for the others, Jasmine said that everyday her strength grows as does her connection with her followers. By the time Angel and Fred got around to saving the rest of the gang, I think Jasmine's connection had grown to the point that once it is broken, it is obvious. I think if the rest of the gang had the spell broken earlier when they were alone and Jasmine was not around, then they would have had the same reaction as Fred. It all had to do with the presence of Jasmine and the strength of her mental connection.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Saturday, October 2, 2004 3:44 PM

JENDANDY

Ahhh, thanks so much! I get it now.
Either I need to watch Angel more (and in order...never seen it in order) or you people are just really, really smart - maybe both? Cus you come up with things I would have never considered.

Sig Rebel

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Monday, October 4, 2004 6:17 AM

CAPTAINCDC

Quote:
Originally posted by JenDandy:
Ahhh, thanks so much! I get it now.
Either I need to watch Angel more (and in order...never seen it in order) or you people are just really, really smart - maybe both? Cus you come up with things I would have never considered.

Sig Rebel

I think watching the eps in order would be your best bet. With the heavily serialized nature of seasons 3 & 4, if you miss one ep it can make a lot of things not make sense. Some would say even if you watch all of them in order they still do not make sense, I would not be one of those people. And if you don't watch buffy, start.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Tuesday, October 12, 2004 9:43 AM

BIKISDAD

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
It's quite clear the birth of Jasmine was the plan all along (I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned in interviews) but what exactly was the point of all the Beast/blotted-Sun stuff then?

Exactly! It didn't make sense then, and even after reading about the season it still doesn't make sense. The Big Evil couldn't have known the gang would bring Angelus back/through/awake, so it wouldn't have sent the Beast just for that.

I was also thinking that perhaps the Beast was sent as something to keep Angel & Co. occupied so that Connor and Cordelia could get together. But then the fact that it wanted Angelus to team up with it makes no sense.

Blotting out the sun obviously has its advantages by allowing the vampires and demons to roam free, but that wouldn't tie in with the whole point of introducing Jasmine.

I dunno, it still doesn't make sense.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All of me is beautiful and valuable, even the ugly, stupid, and disgusting parts.

It actually does make sense and Jasmine gives the explanation herself, although not explicitly. Jasmine's plan is to wipe out all evil on earth (other than herself, if you consider her to be evil). That's why she has The Beast destroy W&H and blot out the sun. The sun blotting was done deliberately to draw demons to L.A. so that Jasmine could have her followers (primarily Angel Investigations) destroy them - that part she does state explicitly.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

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Tuesday, October 12, 2004 11:43 AM

GROUNDED

...which makes no sense because we see that she can take people over through by being seen on TV. If she's going to take over all the people of the world, she doesn't need to draw evil to LA. If anything she risked hampering her own creation by blotting out the Sun...

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Tuesday, October 12, 2004 7:38 PM

IDEFIX

maybe she's a stupid bitch with bad tactics.

Idefix

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:47 PM

DIETCOKE

Hi Rhyme!

I liked the fact that I didn't know where they were going with Jasmine...I love surprises.... And can I just say that Angelus is one of the most evil villians, ever? I love that fact that he is all into emotional pain and hitting on people's fears and doubts. What could be more evil?

The only thing that bothered me about the season was Connor. He was just annoying for me. Kinda like Dawn was for most of Buffy.

Wesley really came into his own this year. A very talented man.

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 12:26 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by dietcoke:
And can I just say that Angelus is one of the most evil villians, ever? I love that fact that he is all into emotional pain and hitting on people's fears and doubts. What could be more evil?

Indeed, Angelus is a great villain. However I don't think they quite captured him right in S4. He was far too blunt.

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Friday, November 26, 2004 8:03 PM

CRAZYDOG7

Oh and the quote from season 2...

"Tell yeah what let me tourture you for a few unbearably long hours and find out if this is the lifestyle for you"

Isn't blunt?

Hell the first episode and the Angelus in control episodes are the only reason I ever
watch Season 4.

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Sunday, November 28, 2004 3:59 AM

GROUNDED

Not particularly, no. And remember that's from the episode Eternity in which the 'perfect happiness' is drug-induced.

Here are a bunch of Angelus lines from Soulless (transcript from buffy-vs-angel.com).

"Angel-schmangel."

"You’re just dying to know about the
big beastie."

"I bet he loves to rub that shiny bald head against her soft milky skin. Mmmm… good."

"Or here’s an oldy but a goody…"

"That twerp really gives me the creeps."

"Now there’s a rack to write home about."

"All that bumpin’ and grindin’"

"I hear you at night in your room with Gunn. The things you say… I’m lying there, listening, hands under the covers… I can’t help myself. It’s so… gripping."

"Did you bring me back a souvenir? Maybe a stray
baby toe?"

"I think I’ll start with the twins. I just love a woman with nice ripe thighs."

Does that sound anything at all like the Angelus they've described in the past? It doesn't to me. Look at the psychological torment he visited on Buffy and co in Buffy S2 - this kind of schoolboy baiting doesn't even come close.

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Sunday, November 28, 2004 8:10 AM

CRAZYDOG7

Well be that as it may, I still say that those episodes are the best part of season 4.

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Saturday, December 4, 2004 3:23 PM

BRUISERSMOM

Amen on the religious right rant. I was also raised Southern Baptist and have been turned off by their "you're either with us or are consumed by the devil" stance on things.

I read an editorial in the LA Times last week where a religious, pro-life woman talked about Rowe v. Wade taking away her rights and freedoms, which I thought was a very strange take on things because of Rowe v. Wade, she has the freedom choose to not have an abortion, without forcing the rest of the country to adopt her values but she sees her point of view as the only one that people can have.

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Saturday, December 4, 2004 3:28 PM

BRUISERSMOM

I was never as interested in Angel as Buffy and season 4 highlights why. Season 4 was too serious.

It doesn't suprise me that season 4 coincides with season 7 on Buffy, which was also too serious. One of the things that I liked about the earlier Buffy seasons was seriousness mixed in with campy fun. I think that season 3 was really the last season for that mix.

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Saturday, December 4, 2004 3:29 PM

BRUISERSMOM

Amen on the religious right rant. I was also raised Southern Baptist and as I grew up became more and more turned off by their "you're either with us or are consumed by the devil and need to either be brought over to our way of thinking or eliminated as threat to the kingdom of God" stance on things

. Their idea of freedom is to have everyone think like they do and to have the government enshrine their values into law, so that nobody who disagrees with them can act out on their dissenting views without being punished for it. For example, with abortion, it's not good enough that they have the right to choose not to have an abortion based on their beliefs about life. Everyone who disagrees with them on this issue must be either brought over to their way of thinking or denied the right to have one

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Sunday, December 5, 2004 2:19 AM

GROUNDED

I think you've posted in the wrong thread...

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Monday, December 6, 2004 10:06 AM

PHOENIXSHIP

Long thread.

To me the big story here (only briefly touched upon) was that Connor was never fooled by Jasmine. Since he never felt anything, he either didn't know the difference or didn't care about Jasmine's lack of beauty (to hime). Poor kid.

I don't understand the dislike some have taken to Connor. I loved his character - I always thought Vincent did a good job with the role, and I liked the way he spoke and interacted with the rest of the gang. Whiny? Not to me. He was just troubled, and in fact going slowly insane, where he ended up the the S4 closer.

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

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Monday, December 6, 2004 10:17 AM

RHYMEPHILE

I always liked the dark and evil version of Connor. I'm glad he never quite reconciled (in Season 4) with Angel until the catastrophic events of the end of the season with the shift in power that leads into Season 5.

I never thought he was whiny per se; I enjoyed how he often got the upper hand with the adults despite all that Angel did to try to help his son. And I always liked how Gunn was constantly annoyed with the kid. He seemed like he was wishing to give Connor one good smack in the head.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

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Monday, December 6, 2004 1:48 PM

GROUNDED

The biggest problem I have with Connor is that he's a continuity nightmare.

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 7:05 AM

KREBSTAR5

I too feel that S4 is the worst season of Angel. In fact, I think it is the worst season of either Angel or Buffy. I just felt as if someone took a bunch of characters I loved and just started writing in a manner that would have as much drama and action as they could get without any regard to the story. There was too much going on that it was difficult to care about Conner, Cordy, or even poor Wesley.

My sister and I always refer to this season as "the horror that is...angel season 4."

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 1:34 PM

GROUNDED

Yay! Someone else who hates it :) My whole family used to watch Angel together but after seeing the abomination that is 'Rain of Fire', I was the only one left to suffer through the rest of it. Having said that I would say Buffy S6 is worse, maybe even S7 too - I'd have to rewatch them to be sure but I'm not going to be doing that any time soon...

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Friday, January 7, 2005 12:08 PM

DIRTYBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
**BILE ALERT**
- Angelus as a character is ruined. Angel and Angelus should NOT be kept separate. They are intricately entwined personalities - the whole point of Angel's character is how close these two personas are to one another. That's what makes him dangerous for crying out loud! I also thought it was pretty weak how few people Angelus actually killed (if any - I have only watched these episodes once).

Right there with ya, brother.

One reason season 4 is my least favorite season out of the 5 (I still love it, but less than the other seasons) was Angelus. Two reasons:
-They constantly played up the "fact" that Angelus and Angel are completely seperate entities living in the same bodies - two personalities. Angel is not Angelus, and vice versa. If that's the case, then why does Angel feel bad about all of the things he did as Angelus? How many times have we seen Angel accused of doing something, and he says "I didn't have a choice, I didn't have a soul," instead of saying "Dude, it wasn't me, it was my split personality."
Angelus and Angel are two sides of the same coin. All Angelus is is Angel without a consience. When ensouled, Angel has a desire to do things like maim, torture, and kill, but his consience keeps him from doing it - likewise, his consience keeps him doing the right thing. It's not that cut and dry simple, but close enough.
-The way David Boreanez portrayed Angelus. Don't get me wrong, he did a good job...for a character that ISN'T Angelus. Take a look at Season 2 of Buffy, or the AtS season 1 episode Eternity to see what I mean. Angelus of season 4 was way too chatty, over-the-top. Angelus is supposed to be more of a quiet, contemplative guy, not a flashy, loud, annoying guy.

Another thing that bugged me about Season 4 was the story. It was going good, with the dark apocalypse, and the thing controlling Cordy, which, to me, suggested the First (which I think would have been a GREAT way to tie-in the shows without necassarily having to have an actual crossover). But...then we got Jasmine.
Now, the Jasmine episodes are good episodes, but the fact is, they came out of nowhere. Jasmine was in control of all the events of the season? Jasmine controlled the Beast, and Cordelia, and tried to recruit Angelus? The Beast and Angelus were crucial to Jasmine's plan, despite the fact that by the time it began to come to fruition, they were nowhere to be found? Everything that happened on the show was just to bring about Jasmine? ME can try to give me all of the "it was just birth pains" shite, but all of the apocalyptic stuff leading into the Jasmine arc made -no- sense whatsoever.

Simon: You...you came for us.
Mal: You're on my crew.
Simon: Right. I guess I just didn't...you don't even like me.
Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?
-Safe

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Monday, February 28, 2005 9:49 AM

ZEEK

As much as I dislike this season I do have to say that Orpheus was one of my favorite episodes of Angel. (Just say it rerun on Fox this weekend) It had everything. Faith and Willow guest star. We see Wesley being all dark and willing to sacrifice Faith to stop Angelus. We get more flashback info about Angel's life. A fight between Angel and Angelus. The interactions between Willow and Wesley , Willow and Fred etc. were great scenes. Just a great episode. Sucked me right in.

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Tuesday, March 1, 2005 8:00 AM

GROUNDED

Huh. I thought it stank, but I could have been on a bitterness overload at the time.

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Tuesday, March 1, 2005 8:22 PM

SHANYU

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:

Personally, I think this season was a strong one, with a continuing arc that started, really, with Cordy's ascension in Season 3.

This be the first mistake (no offense) but the story acctualyl started in season 1. Seasons 1-3 are all leading up to season 4, Season 1 they meet Doyle, who has visions from the powers that be (one of which is jasmine... i think). Next Doyle transfers his visions to Cordy by kissing her right before he jumps to his heroic end. Season 2 and 3 Cordy has visions tells Angel Inc. where to go to find the helpless people. Then she starts to die because the human body cant withstand the visions so she decides to become part demon. Next Cordy is asscended so jasmine can put the final plans into place, Cordy then sleeps with conner impregnanting her with Jasmime.( this is in season 5 i think jasmine took control when cordy was asscended not sure though)

Quote:

I like how the entire season revolves around Cordy and the Beast (although we don't discover Cordy's duplicity until later).

Of course, the highlights of the entire season (for me) is the redemption of Wesley and the return of Angelus. I'm not sure if Angel's forgiving Wesley was all that convincing, though. Wes did save Angel's life when he didn't have to, but Angel was pretty riled for a while there. I wonder if he forgave him too easily.

Sometimes David Boreanaz can go over the top with Angelus, and there are moments of it during this season, but I really enjoy watching him portray Angelus. He does a great job of keeping Angel/Angelus completely separate, and gives Angelus a kind of wide-eyed wonder at being evil I find hilarious.

I'm sure I'm not alone in loving the episode "Awakening" when a shaman supposedly can extract Angel's soul and place it in a bottle; and "Spin the Bottle" when the gang reverts to teenagers; and "Apocalypse Nowish" with the shotgun-totin' Wesley (sorry, I love Wes). Ooh, and the return of Faith. Faith! This season (the good stuff) rocked.

I am soooo with u on this one that was a great season and sooooo well done but angel did forgive wes to quickely he took away angels only chance at a son EVER thast a pretty big thing.

Quote:

Okay, now what I didn't like: when the gang heads to Las Vegas to rescue Lorne from a casino. Gah, terrible. But the only really weak episode of the bunch until we get to...

Jasmine. When I first saw this, I was like, whaaaa? What the? It did surprise me that Connor and Angel bowed down when she was "born" and they didn't go after her. It was almost like a second season began right there. Weirdness. Of course, it is Gina Torres, but I didn't quite "get" where they were going with this. Angel shouldn't have killed her because she brought peace? Angel should have killed her because she was a demon? I never figured it out.

I have to disagree with you here, i acctually liked the las vegas episode, wasnt the best episode of teh season but it wasnt all that bad, kinda reminded me of "Jaynes Town" for some reason.
And angel didnt kill her because she brought peace or cause she was a demon he killed her because she took the human race as slaves (and demons too) and no one had any control, they should have the right to choose even if they make bad choices.

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And that whole arc sets up Connor's fall and the subsequent attaining of Wolfram & Hart, which in my opinion was a mistake, because now Angel and Co. had no evil "big brother" plotting over them. That leads into a fairly weak (IMO) Season 5 with stories that went nowhere and several really poor episodes because now Angel is in charge of the baddies.

Well i have to disagree on last time, I loved the last season the return of spike the great power angel had, the loss in faith of the shan shu (hmm sounds lil like shan yu dont it??) it was an awesome season the greatest ever made by joss though a lil rushed and he wasnt able to continue on and had to get rid of thing quickley(damn cancellation whats wrong wif the network)and the seris finnally was the GREATEST eppisode of all time i loved it more than anything ive ever seen (even some firefly eppisodes).

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Overall, however, this season was a huge continuing arc that worked really well. It got a little weird with the Jasmine stuff. I can overlook those bits for the great writing of this season.

What does everyone think?

I agree it was a great season, and jasmine was weird but a good JOSS weird it was a great idea and he pulled it off perfectly

"You can live with a man for fourty years , share his meals, talk on every subject, then tie him up, and hold him over the volanoes edge. And on that day, you will finally meet the man"

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Thursday, April 7, 2005 7:02 AM

THIEFJEHAT

I'm kinda sad I'm chiming in so late on this thread.

I posted a long rant on the Buffy board about how disappointed I was with season 7 Buffy. My opinion of season 4 Angel is very similar.

No one thing stands out as the single terrible mistake for angel season 4.(I maintain that the Kennedy/Willow relationship holds this distinction in Buffy 7) But as a whole, the entire story arc never made sense. It never gelled. To me it felt like a ship with no rudder, the story never progressed logically, you just kept jumping from one illogical plotline to another.

I mean lets think about it. Season 3 ended with Cordy assending. That was awsome. I liked it. But then she just comes back in S4. There's no reason offered. I initally thought that TPTB were punishing her for somehow influencing Angel's slot machine win in vegas, which would have made some sort of sense, but in the end no real reason was offered. And she was now possessed too. Again, flimsy reasons why.

Jasmine? When I saw this I was like whaaaa....? Come on...this is trash sci-fi. If I wanted trash I'd watch the 70's Battlestar Galactia reruns on the sci-fi channel(not knocking the new show, it's alright) The whole entire idea was just...silly. And again, illogical. I understand that Gina had a contract to fulfill as did Nathan. But in each case it was clear that writers just pulled characters out of the air to give them screentime. The entire time you watch you're not really suspending your disbelief. It just feels forced. Then just like Caleb in S7 buffy, once the contracted # of episodes is reached the writers dispose of the character. I feel betrayed when I consider this.

I was annoyed that Skip the demon was actually evil. It was so much better that this monster-ish guy actually served powers of good..it was just better storytelling. When we got the good/evil switcheroo it became trash writing, no surprises and no cool juxtapositions.

Connor. The most poorly developed character I've seen in awhile. This statement has utterly nothing to do with his foolish character behavior...I hated Kennedy too in S7 Buffy but have since stated that it's not for me to be upset at a show just because a character is grating. Connor was to be to AtS what Dawn was in BtVS. Dawn was developed correctly. Connor was a total waste. You never felt tied to him. When he suffered the memory wipe at the end I just felt like Angel writers had spent an entire season wasting my time and that they owed me something. I sensed that they tried to patch this up in S5, maybe because so many people were upset at the character. But again I'm not upset at the behavior...I'm upset about the development.

Gwen. What was the point here? Just side story? I guess I can swallow a side trek occasionally.

The beast. Worst Villian in the buffyverse. I'm so weary of invincible, unstoppable enemies. They just make everything feel fake and forced.

Lorne was totally underused. Just like spike in season 7 buffy. Lorne is a character that adds value to every scene he's in. He was needed in so many scenes I can't even begin to count and I won't.

There are a few redeaming qualities about the season. Some folks posted on this thread that they hated the Wes/Lilah sex scenes and his new attraction to handguns. Honestly I very much liked this Wesley. Man just think of how developed he has become since buffy season 3. I love good character development. I liked Angel's soul in the bottle. There were other tidbits scattered throughout too.

I need to qualify this season though. This was all being shot the same time Season 7 buffy was in production and also Firefly. It's clear to me that Joss had too much on his plate at once. I felt terrible watching season 7 buffy. Buffy was the show that I loved. Angel as a spin off didn't hurt as much but it still stung. However, when I consider what we all got out of it...Firefly...well perhaps it was worth it. I like to think Joss drained all the energy out of Angel 4 and buffy 7 and poured it into Firefly. And as a work of art, Firefly is beautiful. So perhaps it's ok to break a few eggs to make the omlette so-to-speak. You can see a marked difference in the quality of AtS once season 5 gets going. And finally some logical plots kick back in...though I maintain S5 was never as good as S1 or S3. But you can sense the improvement of the show and that Joss is back fully at the helm.

But without Joss steering, S4 was directionless and wound up in the toliet.

Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.

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Thursday, April 7, 2005 8:02 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by thiefjehat:
Lorne was totally underused. Just like spike in season 7 buffy. Lorne is a character that adds value to every scene he's in. He was needed in so many scenes I can't even begin to count and I won't.

Yeah this was a big one for me. When he was originally introduced, he was used to great effect, even though he wasn't in every episode. Once they brought him in full time they didn't seem willing to give him a solid storyline of his own and ended up letting him drift on in the background. I recently caught some repeats of S5 and totally forgot about some of the eps where he was completely cut out except a token couple of lines.

Although I agree with your Connor rant I'd have to say I don't think Dawn was developed at all correctly. She was on the show three years and did practically nothing.

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Wednesday, April 20, 2005 10:21 AM

DIETCOKE

I agree with the Conner and Dawn annoying thing, but I think they were supposed to be annoying. They annoyed the other characters on the shows and we were just feeling what they were feeling. I think it was ment to be!

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Friday, June 24, 2005 11:10 AM

CAPTAINCDC

Quote:
Originally posted by dietcoke:
I agree with the Conner and Dawn annoying thing, but I think they were supposed to be annoying. They annoyed the other characters on the shows and we were just feeling what they were feeling. I think it was ment to be!

I agree. The way the Connor character was written he was supposed to be annoying. He had been through some bad sh*t and was grappling with tough choices. He had been raised to hate his real father by a mad genius bent on revenge. Then when he finally meets his father and the rest of the gang, he was confronted with conflicting information. What he had been raised to think and what he was witnessing with his own eyes. Add that to a mind that is also struggling with adolescence in a strange new world and you get a kid who makes some bad and yes sometimes annoying choices.

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The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason!

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Friday, June 24, 2005 11:53 AM

GROUNDED

His annoyingness (!) doesn't really bother me - it's the fact that his character is totally changed between the end of S3 and the start of S4 without enough justification. Go rewatch Brave New World - S4 would have been brilliant if they'd stuck to the character's roots.

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Saturday, June 25, 2005 4:40 AM

CAPTAINCDC

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
His annoyingness (!) doesn't really bother me - it's the fact that his character is totally changed between the end of S3 and the start of S4 without enough justification. Go rewatch Brave New World - S4 would have been brilliant if they'd stuck to the character's roots.

I'm just spitballing here, but don't you think that the way season 3 ended would have a pretty profound impact on Connor and his behavior. Connor was led to believe that Angel had killed the man that raised him. He sought revenge just like he was raised to do, and committed a vicious act. All summer he had been consumed by his efforts to keep Fred and Gunn from finding out what he had done to Angel.

I assume you were talking about A New World from S3, the ep where Connor came back to this dimension. If so, are you saying they should have kept Connor more as a feral warrior? Do you think they tried to domesticate him too much?

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The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason!

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Saturday, June 25, 2005 6:41 AM

GROUNDED

I'm saying that they played with his character too much without actually thinking about his background. The most profound influence on him would be the fact that Holtz raised him, and is presumably the only human he's ever known until he gets back in BNW. I would have expected Holtz to have raised Connor in the same way he raised his own children--probably with great emphasis on the Bible. I think it would have made Connor far more interesting if they'd played off the desire for vengeance by giving him a conscience rooted in religion. Instead, within about 4 eps after BNW, they turned into the typical horny teenager who hates his father. What a waste.

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Saturday, June 25, 2005 7:25 AM

CAPTAINCDC

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
I'm saying that they played with his character too much without actually thinking about his background. The most profound influence on him would be the fact that Holtz raised him, and is presumably the only human he's ever known until he gets back in BNW. I would have expected Holtz to have raised Connor in the same way he raised his own children--probably with great emphasis on the Bible. I think it would have made Connor far more interesting if they'd played off the desire for vengeance by giving him a conscience rooted in religion. Instead, within about 4 eps after BNW, they turned into the typical horny teenager who hates his father. What a waste.

I hear what you are saying. And though Connor was not spouting bible thumping rhetoric, he did kind of enact the eye for an eye philosophy of revenge by sinking Angel believing he had killed Holtz. Having said that, I think the path the writers chose for Connor was not an unrealistic one. After all he was a teenage boy whose hormones were practically bouncing off the walls. All of a sudden he was confronted with women being around, which I assume he had only heard about. We have our formative years to learn and experiment and come to terms with our sexuality. With Connor it was thrust upon him all at once. If I was in Connor's place, I would probably have been crazy about Cordelia too.

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The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason!

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