Angel Season Five question within. [spoilers abound] by TheSomnambulist

ANGELUS ARCANUM

Angel Season Five question within. [spoilers abound]

POSTED BY: THESOMNAMBULIST
UPDATED: Monday, July 9, 2007 11:59
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Sunday, July 8, 2007 10:24 AM

Having just re-watched season five and paid particular attention to it's finalé I can't help but wonder at what they actually achieve in the end?

To me it just seems Angel brought about the demise of a very successful 'evil fighting team' to a premature conclusion.

How do you all feel about it?

www.cirqus.com

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 11:30 AM

EMBERS

If you recall from one of the earlier seasons, it was impressed upon Angel that nothing he ever does will ever make any difference... That there has always been evil on earth, that mankind carries within them the power to do the evil all the time, so that is never going to change.

So Angel said: if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do.

In the finale Angel goes to the wall doing what he can, and the biggest thing he could find to do, the most dire thing at that time, was to destroy The Black Thorn. But of course we know that that won't stop Wolfram & Hart's other branches around the world, it won't even stop evil from being done in LA...

For me the metaphor worked perfectly: it was Angel's fate to fight. And keep fighting. He was never going to earn the rest, he had even willingly given up the hope of the happy ending. He accepted his fate and the fight was never going to end.

It was a powerful ending, IMO.

But it doesn't stop me from wanting to read IDW's Angel Season 6 comics which are being written by Brian Lynch and Joss Whedon!

Joss had always hoped to have more seasons of Angel, so even though he had created a great ending to the show, there are still more stories to tell!

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 11:59 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Hey Embers. How you doing?

Yeah I got the 'myth of Sisyphus' style philosophical angle on the evil will always be around no matter what you do, but this line:

"For me the metaphor worked perfectly: it was Angel's fate to fight. And keep fighting. He was never going to earn the rest, he had even willingly given up the hope of the happy ending. He accepted his fate and the fight was never going to end. "

If you take this as literal then surely it stands to reason to keep ALIVE and keep fighting. No? I mean in Angel and Spike you have two Vampires that can live for ever and they can keep the fight against evil going, but the way they went out it just seemed to be an almost kamikaze type battle cry.

If they were to die (as I believe they did) then that's two less warriors fighting against evil.

Is this really the way to go?

I never really felt that the idea of there always being evil as that much of a revelation to be honest with you (especially with characters immersed in such a fight to start with)- the very notion of a Slayer established the omnipotence of evil way back when, so that really wasn't anything new.

But supposing the gang realised their efforts were futile, hopeless as Sisyphus' rolling of the rocks up hill only to return to the bottom to retrieve them once again, ad infinitum, does that mean their only choice is to decide their own end? By their own means....?

www.cirqus.com

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 12:51 PM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Hey Embers. How you doing?

I'm doing great, I'm all excited about going to Comic con for the first time ever9!)

Quote:

If you take this as literal then surely it stands to reason to keep ALIVE and keep fighting. No?

but how do you reliably decided to walk away from this fight so you can live to fight another day?

That thinking clearly works for Mal in his world,
but Angel couldn't very well leave all those demons and a freaken dragon to roam Los Angeles!
I thought it was pretty clear that he HAD to fight.
If he died then that that's the way it goes...
if he lives then there will be another fight to fight tomorrow....

I never saw it that they were all necessarily dying in that alley way on that night. I just took it that eventually they would be dying in some random alley way on some night in the future.

Quote:

If they were to die (as I believe they did) then that's two less warriors fighting against evil.

actually we do kinda know now that they didn't die that night, since Joss says that IDW's Angel S6 will be canon ...
but even if they had, were you sure that that wasn't the righteous fight that needed to be won?
How is a hero to pick and choose?
Clearly Angel had given up his Shanshu to take down the Blackthorn, which is quite a sacrifice right there.

Quote:

I never really felt that the idea of there always being evil as that much of a revelation to be honest with you - the very notion of a Slayer established the omnipotence of evil way back when, so that really wasn't anything new.

well I really do agree with you,
but then true statements are often cliches....

I think it was just that Angel always thought that he would ultimately make a difference,
and in the broad scheme of things, once the meteor hits and we all go the way of the dinosaurs, none of us will have made any impression upon the universe. I think that Joss is ultimately a bit of an existentialist and would have us live in the moment, accepting what is right in front of us.

Quote:

But supposing the gang realised their efforts were futile, hopeless as Sisyphus' rolling of the rocks up hill only to return to the bottom to retrieve them once again, ad infinitum, does that mean their only choice is to decide their own end? By their own means....?

I'm thinking that sometimes you just gotta roll that rock up the hill regardless....

you tote that barge and lift that bale...
and just accept that none of us (not even Angel) are getting out of this life alive.

That is just what I took out of it, other's mileage may vary.

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 1:21 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Well Embers I hope you enjoy Comic con :D

You know looking over your posts It reaffirms to me how great Angel was as a show. Maybe as you say a lot more existential than I gave it credit for.

I did always enjoy Angel from that very point of view. I think it first hit me with that episode where Holland Manners takes Angel to hell.

Nice comparison between Angel and Mal by the way. I'm maybe more Mal inclined....

While I don't necessarily disagree with what your saying I do find myself wondering... Maybe it's more about the choice really. I'd maybe have chosen differently, but as you say either way results pretty much to the same thing...

......Little significance on the universe...

Pheeuw Jean Paul Sartre anyone :D

Cheers.

www.cirqus.com

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 2:26 PM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Well Embers I hope you enjoy Comic con :D

You know looking over your posts It reaffirms to me how great Angel was as a show. Maybe as you say a lot more existential than I gave it credit for.

......Little significance on the universe...

Pheeuw Jean Paul Sartre anyone :D

seems to me that Joss mentions some Sartre in his 'Objects in Space' (as in that is all we are) commentary...
I need to listen to that commentary again.

And maybe the commentary to Angel's S5 finale

and even the commentary to that episode when Holland Manners takes Angel to hell
(God I love listen to Joss give commentary! LOL)

I am so excited about Comic con, I can't compete for a place at Joss' special dinner:
http://cgi3.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=joss-whedon-
supports-charity
but I do plan on getting into Joss' panel while I'm there (maybe he'll expand on this topic?)

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 4:18 PM

REGINAROADIE

I don't remember Sartre being mentioned in the OiS commentary track. All I remember from that track was him saying how CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND confirmed in his mind the non-existence of God, when when I first heard it thought was the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I had the opposite reaction of that when I saw CE3K. I saw the movie as a religious parable on how by putting your faith into a higher being that once can achieve a transcendence of sorts.

I realize now that it's all about personal experiences and how it shapes individuals, so I can't really rag on him for saying that. It just seemed so startling to me that a movie I found to be spiritually redeeming and transcendent had the complete opposite effect on someone who for all intents and purposes should be into this stuff. I'd like to know what he thinks of CONTACT.

As per the ANGEL season 5 ending, absolutely perfect.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Monday, July 9, 2007 7:01 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
I think that Joss is ultimately a bit of an existentialist and would have us live in the moment, accepting what is right in front of us.

That's exactly what I get from much of Joss' stuff, particularly the last ep of Angel.

Agreeing-with-Embers Chrisisall

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Monday, July 9, 2007 11:59 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

The thing with the season Five commentary is that the last episode doesn't have a Joss Commentary. It is Jeffrey Bell, who while informative isn't really the one I wanted to conclude the whole show. Nothing against him at all he does a very nice job, but much like Buffy you want Joss, the creator giving you his insight after all these years....

Still Jeffrey Bell does go into a little more detail on the stunts aspect. Which is very useful.

www.cirqus.com

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