ANGELUS ARCANUM

*spoiler* Question about Forgiving

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Saturday, July 16, 2005 01:42
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Wednesday, June 29, 2005 12:18 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Ok, so I'm enjoying watching Angel reruns. Goodie goodie for the folks at TNT. And I know all this has been hashed out eons ago, so I won't bother w/ the spoiler stuff, but here goes anyway...

Just saw the ep where Wes thinks he's saving Baby Conner from Angel. After everything falls out, and Wes 'somehow' gets saved from the throat slashing, everyone puts the pieces together of what went down. What Wes did took a great amount of guts. Angel has everything explained to him, and it's damn clear that had Wes NOT taken action, Conner would be dead. Period. And things almost worked out for the best, as Angel came close to saving Conner. So, knowing all that, why does Angel STILL try to murder Wes??...even as Angel's just acknowledged that he KNEW why Wes did what he did..because he was trying to SAVE Conner!! Grrrrrr! I've not seen such betrayal of one character toward another like this since Frodo tried to kill Sam in LOTR!! Truly a low mark of the story. But at least Frodo was half mad from the power of the Ring. What the hell is Angel's excuse ?

Flame away all you want, but this has taken some of the shine off my view of all things Joss. It simply made no sense.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, June 29, 2005 12:26 PM

HOTFORKAYLEE


I'm not going to get into the Angel-Wes thing but something else. As I watched the ep (Forgiving 3-17) again it hit me for the first time, is it just me or does the little girl in the white room have an uncanny resemblance to Eve from season 5?




"Captain, I sure would like to know where you are going with this?"
"Someplace very dark. I hope to God I'm wrong."

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Wednesday, June 29, 2005 12:29 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by HotForKaylee:
I'm not going to get into the Angel-Wes thing but something else. As I watched the ep (Forgiving 3-17) again it hit me for the first time, is it just me or does the little girl in the white room have an uncanny resemblance to Eve from season 5?




"Captain, I sure would like to know where you are going with this?"
"Someplace very dark. I hope to God I'm wrong."



Hey, I was thinking the same thing! Not sure who it was I thought it was, but she sure did look familiar.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, June 29, 2005 12:47 PM

BIKISDAD


Going back to your original question... Everything you said was true, except... I don't see why you said that if Wes had not taken action, Connor would have been dead. I got out of it that Connor would have been just fine if Wes had done nothing at all. And the big point is actually made by Fred in a subsequent episode (unfortunately, I don't remember which one, but it's coming up soon after this one - obviously). The point is: Whatever Wes had found, he 1) Shouldn't have acted on his own; 2) Should have told the people he trusts and works with (Fred, Gunn, Cordy, Lorne) rather than 3) going to Angel's worst enemy, Holtz, with the information.

In an episode soon to follow, Fred tells Wes all of this, and Wes realizes that she's right.

As to Angel trying to kill Wes... his son had just been spirited away to a hell dimension from which he was, in all probablility, likely never to return. If someone had done that to my son, I'd want to kill them, too - no matter what their reason for doing it was...

I hope that helps explain (my take) on Angel's motivations and Wes' culpability.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

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Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:09 PM

SIMONWHO


Yup, Angel wasn't going to just forgive and forget what Wesley did. This was his son, a miracle that he should never have gotten and Wes took it away from him.

Plus he's used to killing people. Makes it that much easier if Wesley was merely number 185,582 rather than number 1.

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Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:30 PM

GROUNDED


What they said ^

One other thing: I've noticed a few people coming on recently to chat about Buffy and Angel as they're watching them for the first time. Maybe it would be better to title your post 'Question about Forgiving' instead of writing a spoiler where people can't help but read it.

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Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:35 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
Yup, Angel wasn't going to just forgive and forget what Wesley did. This was his son, a miracle that he should never have gotten and Wes took it away from him.

Plus he's used to killing people. Makes it that much easier if Wesley was merely number 185,582 rather than number 1.



So why the pillow-over-the-face bit? Snap Wes's neck, throw a few punches, etc. Hey, Wes DOES have that fresh wound on the neck...no ideas form that, Angel?

As for why Wes didn't communicate w/ the rest of the gang... who knows. Beating up on Lorn, even for the sake of saving BabyConner...meh. To me, that shows the level of desperation on Wes's part, and how alone he felt. Not to mention the burden he was carrying, whether real or imagined. HE thought it was real, and that's all that matters. Why he felt that way, I can't say.

I kinda makes me think of SW RotS. Aniken has to choose between killing Palpetine right then and there( taking the law into his own hand ) or doing what is viewed as the JEDI way....turing him over to the proper authorities.

Damned if you do, either way.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, June 29, 2005 2:22 PM

BIKISDAD


I am assuming from some of the things you've said, that you haven't seen episodes subsequent to "Forgiving", yet. When you do, you'll come to find out more information, that is currently not known, that will show you Wes definitely did the wrong thing. Granted, he did the wrong thing for the right reasons, but it was still the wrong thing - and Fred's subsequent lambasting of him for not coming to her, or Cordy, or Gunn is spot on correct. Just trusting his friends might have prevented this whole mess.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

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Thursday, June 30, 2005 9:07 AM

ODDNESS2HER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
Yup, Angel wasn't going to just forgive and forget what Wesley did. This was his son, a miracle that he should never have gotten and Wes took it away from him.

Plus he's used to killing people. Makes it that much easier if Wesley was merely number 185,582 rather than number 1.



So why the pillow-over-the-face bit? Snap Wes's neck, throw a few punches, etc. Hey, Wes DOES have that fresh wound on the neck...no ideas form that, Angel?

As for why Wes didn't communicate w/ the rest of the gang... who knows. Beating up on Lorn, even for the sake of saving BabyConner...meh. To me, that shows the level of desperation on Wes's part, and how alone he felt. Not to mention the burden he was carrying, whether real or imagined. HE thought it was real, and that's all that matters. Why he felt that way, I can't say.

I kinda makes me think of SW RotS. Aniken has to choose between killing Palpetine right then and there( taking the law into his own hand ) or doing what is viewed as the JEDI way....turing him over to the proper authorities.

Damned if you do, either way.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "



It's Wes' fatal flaw: trying to solve a problem all on his own and ultimately making it worse. He's been doing this since season 3 of "Buffy" with his handling of Faith. The tragedy is that he doesn't seem to learn from his previous screw-ups.

As for the pillow? If Angel wants Wes to suffer, suffocation is slower than neck-snapping or artery-draining. As you remember, he was supremely pissed. Blood being thicker than water and all.

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Thursday, June 30, 2005 9:54 AM

BOBSTER


Hey folks -- first time poster here, semi-long time lurker (I've been around Whedonesque some)....

Actually had a slightly similar reaction to that scene (but now I'm trying to remember when Frodo actually tried to kill Sam...don't really remember it ever quite getting to that point...)

Re: pillow as weapon of death....I would add that it's possible that, semiconsiously or subconsciously, Angel wasn't so sure he really wanted Wes dead and was just sort of "acting out" out of super-extreme anger...but since he's a killer, his type of "acting out" can be deadly. If he'd snapped his neck or "ate" Wes, that would be the kind of cold blooded murder the fang gang would never countenance.

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Thursday, June 30, 2005 11:13 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
Hey folks -- first time poster here, semi-long time lurker (I've been around Whedonesque some)....

Actually had a slightly similar reaction to that scene (but now I'm trying to remember when Frodo actually tried to kill Sam...don't really remember it ever quite getting to that point...)

Re: pillow as weapon of death....I would add that it's possible that, semiconsiously or subconsciously, Angel wasn't so sure he really wanted Wes dead and was just sort of "acting out" out of super-extreme anger...but since he's a killer, his type of "acting out" can be deadly. If he'd snapped his neck or "ate" Wes, that would be the kind of cold blooded murder the fang gang would never countenance.



I didn't get the impression that Angel cared one bit what anyone else thought of how he treated Wes at that moment. And the more I ponder it, the less I think of Angel. Wes wasn't faultless, but knowing what he risked for the sake of saving BabyConner......it showed true loyalty.(misguided, as it was) I doubt, were I Wes, I'd have any problem in staking Angel.

As per Frodo, it was more explicit in PJs version than in Tolkiens book. Still, when Frodo DID turn on Sam, it was because Frodo wasn't himself...power of the ring, and all.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, June 30, 2005 11:18 AM

STEVETHEPIRATE


My first son is on the way (days away, even). I gotta say, if I'm in Angel's position, I probably do something similar. Surely, no one expects him to hear of Wesley's good intentions, then all of a sudden go, "Oh, I get it. That's OK," then start whistling and walk away like it's no big deal.

Connor was his son - his ONLY son - and he shouldn't have been able to exist in the first place. Quite a father-son bond, if you ask me. There's no way to predict what might happen when a bond like that is broken, and I thought that scene captured that feeling perfectly.

----------------------------------------------
"MY APOCALYPTIC TENOR HAS NOT BEEN DISPELLED!" - T-Rex ( www.qwantz.com)

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Thursday, June 30, 2005 11:44 AM

EMBERS


this was always Wesley's big problem:
when he first shows up on Buffy he ignores what the experienced people say and he acts with total arrogance. He thinks he is the smartest one and can just decide things that effect the lives of other people. He screwed up with Faith, but he didn't really learn his lesson.

He had no business making any decisions for Angel or his baby, he had no rights or authority over their lives (and he had had with Faith). He just decides he knows what is right and does it.
That is not the way a team works, he should have discussed it with everyone.

And of course it does turn out he was completely wrong, that the prophecy was false....

So personally I don't think Angel's reaction was that over-the-top (if the question ever arises, don't ever steal anyone's baby away from them...they will not thank you for it, no matter how well intentioned you believe yourself to be).

Having said that, I will say that I adore Wes; I think his character arc is more interesting than anyone else on Angel. Him ending up all alone and bitter (and sleeping with the enemy) is all good IMO!


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Thursday, June 30, 2005 12:11 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by STEVEthePIRATE:
My first son is on the way (days away, even). I gotta say, if I'm in Angel's position, I probably do something similar. Surely, no one expects him to hear of Wesley's good intentions, then all of a sudden go, "Oh, I get it. That's OK," then start whistling and walk away like it's no big deal.

Connor was his son - his ONLY son - and he shouldn't have been able to exist in the first place. Quite a father-son bond, if you ask me. There's no way to predict what might happen when a bond like that is broken, and I thought that scene captured that feeling perfectly.

----------------------------------------------
"MY APOCALYPTIC TENOR HAS NOT BEEN DISPELLED!" - T-Rex ( www.qwantz.com)



See, the problem w/ your scenario is that it fails to take into account a couple of key things.

1. Wesley assumed the prophecy was right. He had no reason NOT to.
2. Angel's irrational moods. Especially when he was about to snap Conner's head off. Naw, no warning signs there. I'd ignore any silly prophecy my own self.

Angel should be angry. Angry at Holtz, at Wolfram & Hart, but not Wes. Wes, as Sahjhan said, was the only one that showed half a spine in all this by carrying out ( what Wes THOUGHT) was the right thing to do. Lorn was dead on, but no one pays attention to what he has to say. ( What part of always being right do they NOT get? )

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, June 30, 2005 12:13 PM

BIKISDAD


Well, he was "Head boy" after all...

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

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Thursday, June 30, 2005 1:39 PM

BIKISDAD


AURaptor,

I think we understand why you're upset. But you're expecting a reasoned and compassionate response from a guy who had just had his only son taken away from him forever (he thought). Guess what, you're not going to get a reasoned and compassionate response from someone in that situation - not Angel, or any other guy who had just had his only son stolen from him. Wes' rationale and intent ARE IRRELEVANT to Angel. To Angel, his son is gone, period - and Wes is the guy who stole him away. That's the only thing he cares about. Angel's reaction is purely emotional. If you can't understand that reaction, then I'm pretty sure you've never had a son. That's the only reason I can think of why Angel's actions don't seem completely natural to you, like they do to me.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

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Friday, July 15, 2005 8:16 PM

SHANYU


Ok well im not sure if this has been said yet (i only read a few reply's) But... first off conner would have been fine if he was not taken, angel got a taste for his blood yes, but he would never kill his son... well unless of course you take the season finally into account but thats a different situation, back to the one at hand.

Whats Angels reason for trying to kill wes, frodo went mad because of the ring... ok, but

Angels son was just dragged into a hell dimension with angels enemy, never to return, and most likely die! hmm i wonder why hed be mad as wesley... If it were me... id take my axe into that damn hospital rather than having the sympathy that angel did have. if angel really wanted wes dead hed be dead, angel was just making a point. That he hated wes.

"You can live with a man for fourty years , share his meals, talk on every subject, then tie him up, and hold him over the volanoes edge. And on that day, you will finally meet the man"

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Saturday, July 16, 2005 1:42 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

... if angel really wanted wes dead hed be dead, angel was just making a point. That he hated wes.


Probably the best way to explain it. Despite Angel's understanding of why Wes did what he THOUGHT was the right thing to do, Conner was gone. Angel was pissed off, and Wes bore the brunt of that rage. I get it more now, but I still don't like it.



" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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