ANGELUS ARCANUM

'You're Welcome' is a HORRIBLE episode!!! (spoilerish)

POSTED BY: JWHEDONADDICT
UPDATED: Thursday, October 18, 2007 18:58
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4504
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Monday, October 8, 2007 7:17 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


Now that I've got your attention () let me explain.

What I meant by "horrible" is that it truly pisses me off that--how many years later?--it still brings me to tears as much as it did the first time.

I actually love the episode...just hate what happened at the end and that I still spend the first 40 minutes crying (the hugs w/Angel and Wes, then the rest of the gang, researching w/Wes again, the realization that everything went to hell BECAUSE she was gone, the "first soldier down" video, etc.), because I know what it's leading up to. Seriously, I think Joss owes me a lifetime supply of Kleenex for this one (even though he didn't write it, I still completely blame him for the outcome).

Aaah!!! It's been said that the ep. is basically a love letter to Cordelia. I completely agree with that, and I'm on board with it because she deserved it.

I never expected to love this character as much as I do, and I just still wish it could've ended some other way.

Thanks for allowing me to vent.

***********************************************
Joss is like a present, he's like a gift as far as I'm concerned.--Ron Glass

"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"All I had to do is want it bad enough...and guess what I want to do now, you prissy son of a bitch?"--Spike

For Joss!




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Monday, October 8, 2007 9:28 AM

REGINAROADIE


Yeah, I always thought that this was a great send-off for Cordelia. I have to admit that when I first started watching Buffy, I really didn't like Cordelia because she was just really annoying. But by season 3, she started to become less so and more enjoyable. But when she moved to L.A. with Angel, I thin part of the appeal of the show was just seeing her transform from the spoiled little princess to a warrior woman on the same level as Buffy.

It's almost a shame that what happened to her in Season 4 was just a rouse and nearly destroyed her character. I would think being asked to become a God or a higher spiritual being would be a good thing instead of getting knocked up again with an evil being. So I'm glad that this episode existed just so that our memories of Cordy weren't tarnished by season 4.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Monday, October 8, 2007 10:19 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


Quote:

Originally posted by reginaroadie:
Yeah, I always thought that this was a great send-off for Cordelia. I have to admit that when I first started watching Buffy, I really didn't like Cordelia because she was just really annoying. But by season 3, she started to become less so and more enjoyable. But when she moved to L.A. with Angel, I thin part of the appeal of the show was just seeing her transform from the spoiled little princess to a warrior woman on the same level as Buffy.

It's almost a shame that what happened to her in Season 4 was just a rouse and nearly destroyed her character. I would think being asked to become a God or a higher spiritual being would be a good thing instead of getting knocked up again with an evil being. So I'm glad that this episode existed just so that our memories of Cordy weren't tarnished by season 4.



Originally, I thought they were nuts to put her on Angel when I first heard about it (David Greenwalt's idea, not Joss's). Not that I didn't enjoy the character, just couldn't see how that would work. (Thank you, DG!!)

In the writer's defense though, they had to change it a bit when Charisma got preggers, but she was apparently gonna go evil anyway. I think I remember Joss saying once (maybe it was another writer I don't know) that they had run out of ideas for Cordy because too much of the audience were against the pairing of her and Angel...which I guess is where they'd been heading from the get-go (from her getting the visions, maybe? JMO).

***********************************************
Joss is like a present, he's like a gift as far as I'm concerned.--Ron Glass

"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"All I had to do is want it bad enough...and guess what I want to do now, you prissy son of a bitch?"--Spike

For Joss!



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Monday, October 8, 2007 10:41 AM

DEEPGIRL187


I'm glad you clarified, JWhedonAddict. I was about to get evil.

Although, I don't understand why people didn't like her and Angel together. That was my favorite pairing out of the entire series.

*****************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

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Monday, October 8, 2007 10:46 AM

REGINAROADIE


Actually, I would have preferred to see Angel and Cordy hook up over Angel and Buffy. I know so many fans out there see Angel and Buffy as a couple that would give Romeo and Juliet a run for their money, but I personally never bought the relationship. At least not until SMG guest starred on ANGEL in "I Will Remember You". Angel/Buffy just seemed more of a plot contrivance than an organic part of the story. Plus, the two actors had zero chemistry between them.

But with Angel and Cordy, I honestly felt some sparkage there. Two people that used to be awful people and are slowly working towards personal salvation. I think they'd have more in common than some whiny teenage girl bemoaning her title as the Vampire Slayer.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Monday, October 8, 2007 1:26 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


And thank YOU for venting ! I agree w/ your sentiment, and loved the episode as well. One of my all time favs.


It's been a long running issue w/ me, as to which character 'grew' or changed the most, between Cordy and Wes. Even if I give the nod to Wes, Cordy definatly became the better person. (Despite the whole evil mother of Jasmine thing, not so much her fault. But boinking Conner? ....meh. )

Much of Wesleys transformation was based in a very bad spot.



People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, October 8, 2007 1:56 PM

DEEPGIRL187


The whole boinking Connor thing is still a bit of an issue for me. If Jasmine needed to use them both to be "born", then is it possible that she influenced Cordy to do it in the first place? I just feel that if she was in her right mind (i.e., having all of her memories), it never would have happened.

As for Wesley, I can't help but love the guy. Maybe he did go through more than a few rough patches, but he's still the man in my book.

*****************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

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Monday, October 8, 2007 5:31 PM

GROOSALUGG


Well, I would've liked to see Cordy end up with Groo, but... :whistling:

The only thing I didn't like about "You're Welcome" wasn't anything in the episode itself, but rather the episodes that followed it: that is, it would've been nice if there'd been some remorse shown from the likes of Wes, Fred, Lorne, and Gunn. I remember that watching the season the first time thru, when it was revealed at the end of YW that it was some kind of spell, that Cordy hadn't really been there, I wasn't sure if the others even remembered she'd come back--that maybe it had been some kind of 'Connor' type thing where no one (or only Angel) actually remembered the events of YW...

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Tuesday, October 9, 2007 7:03 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:
I'm glad you clarified, JWhedonAddict. I was about to get evil.

Although, I don't understand why people didn't like her and Angel together. That was my favorite pairing out of the entire series.



I was among those who did not like them together. I always saw Angel and Cordy as a bro-sis relationship until season 3...I was thrown for a loop at the time. I was HUGE into Buffy and Angel together for the longest time, and that was part of it, I'll admit. I ended up being okay with her moving on (especially if it's w/Xander), but had always felt his character worked best if she was the one he couldn't get over (since I felt she was the one who inspired him to change his life). I was okay w/Cordy being in love with Angel (he inspired her for the same reason) but not having it reciprocated, maybe. Then the Connor stuff happened. I really don't think Cordy herself was in charge of that decision to sleep w/him but I could be wrong. I think it was Jasmine in control from the moment she got her memory back.

My feelings about Angel/Cordy changed at some point, I think it was probably when I found out they ran out of ideas for the character. I would've accepted ANYTHING rather than have her go evil and/or die. I personally would've liked to have seen her and Gunn have a go since I never saw chemistry w/ him and Fred. I thought they were cute together in the ep. where Cordy and Wes met him for the first time (drawing a blank as to the title) and she decided it was her mission to save him from himself.

***********************************************
Joss is like a present, he's like a gift as far as I'm concerned.--Ron Glass

"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"All I had to do is want it bad enough...and guess what I want to do now, you prissy son of a bitch?"--Spike

For Joss!



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Tuesday, October 9, 2007 7:14 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


Quote:

Originally posted by reginaroadie:
whiny teenage girl bemoaning her title as the Vampire Slayer.



Part of what I liked about the character, actually. Yes she was strong, but at the same time she was just a girl with an unimagineable weight on her shoulders. Made her relatable and human, not being SO strong all the time. How could a viewer be expected to care at all about a character who never showed any sign of weakness? NO ONE is that perfect, IMHO.


***********************************************
Joss is like a present, he's like a gift as far as I'm concerned.--Ron Glass

"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"All I had to do is want it bad enough...and guess what I want to do now, you prissy son of a bitch?"--Spike

For Joss!



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Tuesday, October 9, 2007 7:18 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
And thank YOU for venting ! I agree w/ your sentiment, and loved the episode as well. One of my all time favs.



Um, you're welcome. No pun intended!

***********************************************
Joss is like a present, he's like a gift as far as I'm concerned.--Ron Glass

"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"All I had to do is want it bad enough...and guess what I want to do now, you prissy son of a bitch?"--Spike

For Joss!



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Tuesday, October 9, 2007 10:09 AM

GROOSALUGG


Quote:

Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:
I think it was Jasmine in control from the moment she got her memory back.


Correct. But don't feel bad for not being clear on it--that storyline wasn't exactly brimming with clarity or direction, right from the get-go. Am I the only one who wonders how much different--and better--S4 would've been if Greenwalt had still been there...?

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Tuesday, October 9, 2007 10:39 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


It is a great episode and very poignant too. One of the best of Season Five and totally true to the mission statement of ANGEL. You know if anything I'd say they didn't do enough of this kind of thing on Angel. Instead they seemed to obsess about the season arc a little too much.

I must admit I wasn't a fan of the pairing of Angel and Cordelia but I would have accepted it nonetheless. Thing is though after investing in all that story between Buffy and Angel in the BUffy seasons it did kind make Angel and Cordelia redundant.

Somehow there is greater romance to a Vampire Slayer and a Vampire falling in love. That really made Buffy something beyond just another TV show. That conflict was superb and really Angel and Cordelia were never going to top that.

It's just poetic. (As Giles once put it)




www.cirqus.com

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Tuesday, October 9, 2007 1:16 PM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
It's just poetic. (As Giles once put it)



You forget the latter half of the quote. I believe he stated it was in a "maudlin sort of way"?

I do like the Angel/Buffy pairing. But I loved Angel and Cordelia together just for the fact that it felt more realistic. Angel and Buffy was poetic, to be sure, but also more than a little melodramatic. Not to mention the fact that Angel and Cordy had a lot more in common. They both understood the idea of redemption, something I don't think Buffy will ever really deal with.

And Groo, I definitely agree. If DG was there, season four would have been a hell of a lot better.

***************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

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Friday, October 12, 2007 2:15 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


Am I in the minority again? I actually loved Season 4...could've done w/o Cordy being evil, and would've liked for Connor to be redeemed earlier and been a regular in Season 5, but oh well. Even my mom and sis got into that season when I got them to watch it. They liked the soap-operay continuation, but got bored (mostly but not completely) by Season 5's stand-alones.

***********************************************
Buffy: I'm just worried this whole session's gonna turn into some training montage from an '80's movie.
Giles: (sighs) Well, if we hear any inspirational power chords we'll lie down till they go away.


"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel


Joss is like a present, he's like a gift as far as I'm concerned.--Ron Glass

For Joss!










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Friday, October 12, 2007 11:11 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Not all of Season Four was bad. A few of my favorite episodes are in that season (The House Always Wins, Spin The Bottle, Orpheus). I just feel the storyline was too convoluted. Had David been there, we might have avoided this.

*************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

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Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:22 AM

GROOSALUGG


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:
I just feel the storyline was too convoluted.


Probably the easiest, shortest, best description of it. I also hated the way Connor's character was developed (or rather, not developed) since I felt he had a lot of potential at the end of S3 to be a really intriguing character going forward. And Evil Cordy... I can't figure out if she was utterly unwatchable because of poor writing, poor acting, or both...

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Saturday, October 13, 2007 11:46 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


Quote:

Originally posted by Groosalugg:
And Evil Cordy...I can't figure out if she was utterly unwatchable because of poor writing, poor acting, or both...



I guess I just don't get that. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, Groo.

***********************************************

Buffy: I'm just worried this whole session's gonna turn into some training montage from an '80's movie.
Giles: (sighs) Well, if we hear any inspirational power chords we'll lie down till they go away.


"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel


Joss is like a present, he's like a gift as far as I'm concerned.--Ron Glass

For Joss!










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Saturday, October 13, 2007 12:59 PM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by Groosalugg:
And Evil Cordy... I can't figure out if she was utterly unwatchable because of poor writing, poor acting, or both...



I choose to believe poor writing. Charisma did some really great scenes turing her tenure on the show. And even the best actors can only do so much with a bad script.

*************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

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Wednesday, October 17, 2007 11:40 PM

LEXAN


It wasn't poor writing at all, the dialogue was excellent, or could have been, but it seemed to me as if Charisma was given a role that really was not suited to her. There are certain types of villains I think Charisma would be great at playing but the personality of the villain the writer's gave her was, I must admit, a fairly dismal choice. In this way, and this way only, was it poor writing.

Ultimately, it was a lack of compatibility between the writing of Evil Cordy's character, the actress and the story.

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:31 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Perhaps instead of bad writing I should say bad storyline. You can have the most wonderful dialogue in the world, but it won't necessarily save a bad story. So great dialogue-

Quote:

"How have you been?"

"Higher power. You?"

"Ultimate evil. But I got better."



-but bad plot. Happens to the best.

*****************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 8:09 AM

GROOSALUGG


I think it was a combination of both. The character wasn't written well--she was, in fact, pretty boring. With the exception of Holtz (who had Sahjhan around as comedy relief), nemeses without senses of humor in the Joss-verse just don't turn out very good. But Charisma didn't make much out of the material she was given, either--she played it WAY too arch--and I believe a different actress might've at least been able to do something with that character. That's not an indictment of Charisma (even if it sounds like one); she played the real Cordy as perfectly as that character possibly could be. But I think the version of Evil Cordy that the writers gave her was just beyond her range...

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Thursday, October 18, 2007 6:58 PM

LEXAN


I agree with what you're saying about Evil Cordy in relation to Charisma, though I can't agree about the bad plot or dialogue (even with that particular character, who was, granted, the worst part of season four). As I was implying before, it was like the character the writers wrote was a positive electrical charge and the actress (and also the story, actually) was another positive electrical charge that the writers were trying to put together, not realising that they didn't fit.

As you already know though, IMAO all other aspects of season four are basically flawless.

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