ANGELUS ARCANUM

questions to tie up angel

POSTED BY: EST120
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 09:25
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Tuesday, March 1, 2005 3:05 AM

EST120


okay, i have seen all the episodes of angel (and they were great!), but i still have a couple of questions. perhaps some people can help me. just a quick note, there may be spoilers for people who do not know the whole story, so beware!

1. in the finale, connor tells angel he knows who he is. does he figure this out in the previous episode where wesley smashes the "thingy" from vail? does he know then and just not say anything? does that make his last line in that episode, "you protect your family, i learned that from my father" directed at angel?

2. why does lindsay end up helping them? of course, we know that he is obsessed with the senior partners, but he never said that he wanted to destroy them or fight with them. also, why does angel have him killed? they have been adversaries for years, but was there really no way angel could trust him or even just let him live?

3. if angel can feed off of hamilton and gain some of his strength in order to defeat him, does that mean hamilton is human? we know that the liason to the senior partners is immortal, but are they (hamilton and eve) just immortal humans?

4. when gunn goes to the white room to plead for fred's life, who is it that he is talking to? in season 4, we see the little girl that, i thought, was the conduit to the senior partners. does the beast kill her? why all of a sudden does the conduit alter forms?

i know this is a lot of minutiae, but i am sure most of these questions have answers that i just missed while watching the (most likely) edited episodes on TV.


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Tuesday, March 1, 2005 5:05 AM

STEVETHEPIRATE


1. in the finale, connor tells angel he knows who he is. does he figure this out in the previous episode where wesley smashes the "thingy" from vail? does he know then and just not say anything? does that make his last line in that episode, "you protect your family, i learned that from my father" directed at angel?

Answer: In short, yes.

2. why does lindsay end up helping them? of course, we know that he is obsessed with the senior partners, but he never said that he wanted to destroy them or fight with them. also, why does angel have him killed? they have been adversaries for years, but was there really no way angel could trust him or even just let him live?

Answer (mine, at least): I think Lindsay helped because it suited him at the time - make everyone think he's using the "if ya can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality and use that to try to kill Angel later. Angel sees through it and, after Lindsay has served his purpose, *bang*.

3. if angel can feed off of hamilton and gain some of his strength in order to defeat him, does that mean hamilton is human? we know that the liason to the senior partners is immortal, but are they (hamilton and eve) just immortal humans?

Answer: It's been established that vampires can feed off of more beings than just humans, so Hamilton could be anything. It's the "their mystical power flows through my veins" thing that's important.

4. when gunn goes to the white room to plead for fred's life, who is it that he is talking to? in season 4, we see the little girl that, i thought, was the conduit to the senior partners. does the beast kill her? why all of a sudden does the conduit alter forms?

Answer: The Beast did kill the little-girl conduit in mid-season 4. Conduit became a tiger several episodes later (season 4 finale or season 5 premier - I forget which). What form the conduit takes is not really integral to its purpose.

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Tuesday, March 1, 2005 5:48 AM

MAUGWAI


1) When the box breaks, one of the images that flashes by is Connor with a tear rolling down his face because he just got all his memories back. That's why he's able to kick ass. He remembers how.

2) Angel is bringing down every bad guy he can until he can't fight anymore. That includes Lindsay, because Lindsay has already had three opportunities to give up evil and has failed each time. He will always be evil, even if he thinks he's part of the team now. Angel had to have him killed.



"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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Tuesday, March 1, 2005 7:17 AM

ODDNESS2HER


1) Yes

2) Lindsay wanted to be on the winning side. This does not mean he embraces the values of Team Angel. Lorne's speech says it all.

3) Not sure what Hamilton is, but if he has blood, he's fair game.

4) The replacement conduit seems to take whatever form will be most effective at delivering its message, whether that be a leopard or a mirror image of the one seeking answers.

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Tuesday, March 1, 2005 7:49 AM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by oddness2her:
4) The replacement conduit seems to take whatever form will be most effective at delivering its message, whether that be a leopard or a mirror image of the one seeking answers.



I might add that I think that there were elements of Gunn in the leopard, and the leopard in Gunn...
remember in Angel's 'dream' when Gunn's eyes turned to cat's eyes?
There was some kind of connection or meeting of the minds there, so I didn't see that the conduit was necessarily 'changing forms' between the cat and Gunn.
But, yeah, the Beast DID kill the little girl as conduit.

Now I have a question:
In Lineage We understand that Wes' Father masterminded the whole thing with the robot attack in order to steal Angel's whatever...
BUT when Wesley kills his Father, and discovers that he is really a robot, we figure that the 'father robot' was programmed with all kinds of info from The Council.
But by whom?
Who programmed the 'father robot'?
Who was behind that attack?

just wondering

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Tuesday, March 1, 2005 7:56 AM

GROUNDED


I don't think it matters. I think the point is that they have a whole new set of enemies now they're in W&H, including ones with far greater reach and motivation that before.

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Tuesday, March 1, 2005 8:12 AM

ODDNESS2HER


Yeah, Embers, I think you're right about there being a "connection" between Gunn and the leopard on a primal level. That's why it was a good incarnation for the conduit to take. In that sense the appearance of the conduit is always a mirror image, no matter what it looks like. Whoa, heavy.

Re "Lineage" questions:

How funny, I just re-watched this episode last night! I don't think it was really explained who was behind the robot attack. This was probably a story line they meant to expand on later, but couldn't due to cancellation.

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Tuesday, March 1, 2005 8:44 AM

ZEEK


I heard at one point someone said the sign of the black thorn (whatever the uber evil dude society was called) was on the robots. So it's possible that one of them sent the robots to take control of Angel.

When I watched the episode though I thought it must have been a surviving council member. There was a thread here about the possibility that Giles sent the robots even.

I too believe this would have been explored had the show not been cancelled.

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Tuesday, March 1, 2005 8:51 AM

EST120


Quote:

Originally posted by oddness2her:
1) Yes



so, does this mean that connor has, on some level, accepted angel? he says in the finale that he understands why angel did what he did. even mentioned that he appreciated it. did connor kind of overcome the hate towards angel that holtz had bred for years in that alternate dimension?

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Tuesday, March 1, 2005 9:11 AM

IDEFIX


Connor in S5 was the boy he could/should have been. he was happy, healthy and well-adjusted. when he got his original memories back it seemed like a dream to him. he now knows the whole story and being a normal happy kid he's able to deal with it and accept his father for what he is. and what he's done for him in making sure he got this second chance.

and the big cat conduit was a black panther, wasn't it? no stripes no spots, shiny black fur all over. unless I got something very confused in my mind.

Idefix

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Tuesday, March 1, 2005 10:14 AM

ODDNESS2HER


Yes, est120, he has. That's why he shows up at Wolfram & Hart that night to fight alongside Angel.

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Tuesday, March 1, 2005 10:16 AM

ODDNESS2HER


Idefix, there's no such thing as a black panther. What people call black panthers are really a species of leopard. They have spots, but since the cats' fur is black, they are less visible than those of regular leopards.

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Tuesday, March 1, 2005 7:51 PM

SHANYU


Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
I heard at one point someone said the sign of the black thorn (whatever the uber evil dude society was called) was on the robots. So it's possible that one of them sent the robots to take control of Angel.

When I watched the episode though I thought it must have been a surviving council member. There was a thread here about the possibility that Giles sent the robots even.

I too believe this would have been explored had the show not been cancelled.



Zeek, this be about ur first point that someone said the sign of the black thorn was on the robots... this episode happened before any one at Angel Inc. knew about black thorn so no one would have mentioned it.

Quote:

Originally posted by est120:
okay, i have seen all the episodes of angel (and they were great!), but i still have a couple of questions. perhaps some people can help me. just a quick note, there may be spoilers for people who do not know the whole story, so beware!

1. in the finale, connor tells angel he knows who he is. does he figure this out in the previous episode where wesley smashes the "thingy" from vail? does he know then and just not say anything? does that make his last line in that episode, "you protect your family, i learned that from my father" directed at angel?

2. why does lindsay end up helping them? of course, we know that he is obsessed with the senior partners, but he never said that he wanted to destroy them or fight with them. also, why does angel have him killed? they have been adversaries for years, but was there really no way angel could trust him or even just let him live?

3. if angel can feed off of hamilton and gain some of his strength in order to defeat him, does that mean hamilton is human? we know that the liason to the senior partners is immortal, but are they (hamilton and eve) just immortal humans?

4. when gunn goes to the white room to plead for fred's life, who is it that he is talking to? in season 4, we see the little girl that, i thought, was the conduit to the senior partners. does the beast kill her? why all of a sudden does the conduit alter forms?

i know this is a lot of minutiae, but i am sure most of these questions have answers that i just missed while watching the (most likely) edited episodes on TV.




OK now to answer ur questions as best i can.
1) At the end of that episode it seems that conner does have the memorys of his father, just by the way he act, but tehre is no for sure way to tell because it may have taken longer for the spell to kick in becasue conner aint human, or beacause conner was far away fomr the blast and behind a magic wall.

2)Lindsey helps angel kill the snior partners because ever since he left WR&H he has hated them he knew more about them than anyone, he wants them hurt almost as much as he wants angel hurt. And of course there was the TORTURE they put him through... i dont see Lindsey as a forgiving guy... Angel cuts off his hand they hate eachother, the senior partners cut out his heart over and over... thast something he might not have liked so much.

3)We end up leanring eve is only immortal because she is under contract, but we dont know whether or not they're human or not but as long as they have blood angel can feed off them.

4)The little girl is killed by the beast and after that, it is a different conduit, this one, as gunns evil twin conduit type thing said, the conduit appears different to each person(something along those lines).

"You can live with a man for fourty years , share his meals, talk on every subject, then tie him up, and hold him over the volanoes edge. And on that day, you will finally meet the man"

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Tuesday, March 1, 2005 8:29 PM

IDEFIX


ok I translated the species from german to english, maybe you call both leopards but my dictionary gave me the name 'panther'. and since they are called 'Panter' in german I believed it. we pronounce it pretty differently but loepard is Leopard as well. if they are related or not I do not know, I'm no biologist.

sorry if I confused anyone. we call the black ones 'Panter' and so I assumed you do too and just got them confused.

Idefix

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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 3:34 AM

MAUGWAI


Quote:

Originally posted by oddness2her:
Idefix, there's no such thing as a black panther. What people call black panthers are really a species of leopard. They have spots, but since the cats' fur is black, they are less visible than those of regular leopards.



Well, slap me silly and call me Susan.

I didn't believe you, so I looked up a bunch of stuff all over the web, and kept coming across corroborating evidence. I have learned something today. Most importantly, that the Carolina Panthers mascot is misnamed. Secondly, that I can now refer to my tattoo as a black leopard, thus avoiding the inevitable strange looks and racial innuendos I have gotten in the past.

So thanks for the science lesson, Oddness.



"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 7:06 AM

ODDNESS2HER


Maugwai, you are most welcome, but I must share credit with Animal Planet. I'm just tickled that what started as a discussion of a minor plot point on a tv fansite could inspire biology research. Inquiring minds rule!

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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 7:14 AM

ODDNESS2HER


Okay, I checked my dictionary and apparently black leopards can also be known as panthers.
So I guess saying black panther is redundant. If a leopard is black, go ahead and call it a panther. Glad we cleared this up.

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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 7:41 AM

ZEEK


Quote:

Originally posted by ShanYu:
Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
I heard at one point someone said the sign of the black thorn (whatever the uber evil dude society was called) was on the robots. So it's possible that one of them sent the robots to take control of Angel.

When I watched the episode though I thought it must have been a surviving council member. There was a thread here about the possibility that Giles sent the robots even.

I too believe this would have been explored had the show not been cancelled.



Zeek, this be about ur first point that someone said the sign of the black thorn was on the robots... this episode happened before any one at Angel Inc. knew about black thorn so no one would have mentioned it.


Sorry. Clarification: someone on this site said that they saw the black thorn logo on the robots. Not someone on the show. They must have seen it after the series was over and they rewatched the season or something. Never heard anyone else back that up though.

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Tuesday, August 23, 2005 1:17 PM

ROGUEDEMONHUNTR8


Quote:

Originally posted by est120:
okay, i have seen all the episodes of angel (and they were great!), but i still have a couple of questions. perhaps some people can help me. just a quick note, there may be spoilers for people who do not know the whole story, so beware!

1. in the finale, connor tells angel he knows who he is. does he figure this out in the previous episode where wesley smashes the "thingy" from vail? does he know then and just not say anything? does that make his last line in that episode, "you protect your family, i learned that from my father" directed at angel?

*Yeah.I do.Because he probably remembers what Angel said before he 'killed' him.Plus,I don't see his fake-father(in the very little time that we see him)as the big 'protect your family'type.Also,just the way Connor looked at Angel when he said that.*

2. why does lindsay end up helping them? of course, we know that he is obsessed with the senior partners, but he never said that he wanted to destroy them or fight with them. also, why does angel have him killed? they have been adversaries for years, but was there really no way angel could trust him or even just let him live?

*I think the only reason Angel asked Lindsay to help him is because his team wasn't big enough to kill all of the Black Thorn at once unless you count Lorne and he really isn't in to fighting.*

3. if angel can feed off of hamilton and gain some of his strength in order to defeat him, does that mean hamilton is human? we know that the liason to the senior partners is immortal, but are they (hamilton and eve) just immortal humans?

*Pretty much.From my understanding of it anyway.*

4. when gunn goes to the white room to plead for fred's life, who is it that he is talking to? in season 4, we see the little girl that, i thought, was the conduit to the senior partners. does the beast kill her? why all of a sudden does the conduit alter forms?

*Probably cause it knows that he is going to betray him soon.*








You protect your family.I learned that from my father.

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Tuesday, August 23, 2005 1:44 PM

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL


To touch upon the Lindsey question:

Angel gives Lindsey a chance to join the good guys, and tests him - Lindsey fails the test. When Lindsey agrees to help, Angel asks him why - the answer he was hoping for is "because it's the right thing to do". He was hoping that Lindsey has learned that by now.

However, Lindsey responds by saying that it's going to be one hell of a fight, and he doesn't want to miss it, so basically what the hell. (That's a paraphrase of course.) At that moment, you can see the decision in Angel's eyes - he knows he has to kill Lindsey because he doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, and in the end is just going to be another bad guy.

It's a subtle scene, and of course this is my interpretation of it. However, it was a very harsh judgment on Angel's part, assuming that Lindsey is beyond the chance of becoming one of the good guys, given that Angel gives such lip service to the notion of redemption. (And also given that Angel/Angelus has committed far greater evils that Lindsey could ever dream of, and was still redeemed.)

"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care. Or indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all." -Kerr Avon

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 9:04 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by oddness2her:
Okay, I checked my dictionary and apparently black leopards can also be known as panthers.
So I guess saying black panther is redundant. If a leopard is black, go ahead and call it a panther. Glad we cleared this up.

Y'all would've known all this already if you only watched Zoboomofoo!

PBS has the answers Chrisisall

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Thursday, August 25, 2005 6:27 AM

BATMARLOWE


Catamounts, Cougars, Mountain Lions, and Pumas are all the same animal. "Panther" is another word for Black Leopard. Whether or not there is actually such a thing as a "Panther" is matter of how much of a social contructivist you are.
"Black Panther" is redundant as all Panthers are black. But "Black Panther" sounds so cool, let's keep saying it anyway.

Wait a second. Florida Panthers aren't black. Are Florida Panthers Leopards? No hockey jokes, please.

Connor, I think, gradually gets back all his memories and he becomes very appreciative of the sacrifice Angel made for him. And I think he loves Angel for it.

Now that Connor knows he has lived two lives, I think there are places to go with the character.

I didn't realize the Fatherbot was sent by the Circle of the Black Thorne, but it makes sense to me.

We've all seen overbearing, condescening, heartless, mindfucking parents on T.V. shows before. But when was the last time you saw a main character (on regular series television) who was a protagonist pump bullets into his father without a second of hesitation before we saw Wesley do it?

Never, that's when.

I know it was a robot, but neither Wes nor we knew that at time. Psychologically speaking, Wes was murdering his father.

In an odd way it was an exhilarating moment. It certainly was a cathartic one. And my second favorite moment from ANGEL S5. The end of NFA being the first.

Anybody think Joss has father issues?

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Monday, August 29, 2005 8:36 PM

AMYEL


Big yes to the father issues thing. There are a handful of decent mothers in the two shows, but the only father who wasn't a total bastard was Roger Burkle. And Lawrence Reilly (Connor's fake dad) seemed decent from the little bit we've seen of him. We don't know a whole lot about Ira Rosenberg, but from description he was probably just the male equivalent of his wife. Willow's parents weren't completely awful; just frequently absentee. Too bad Xander's parents couldn't have left him the hell alone more often. But generally, Jossverse dads are either abusive or not present.

And Angel as a dad, well... I think the saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" basically sums him up.

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Monday, August 29, 2005 10:09 PM

BATMARLOWE


Hadn't thought about Fred's dad--good call. But he's the only one. Lawrence Riley is, as you said, a fake dad. I agree that we were to assume Willow's father was as bad as her mother. How 'bout Cordelia's father, huh? A white collar criminal. Don't forget Ted (although he was neither Buffy's father nor an actual person he was a father figure). Holtz was a good father in his own time but in regard to Connor ultimately he was manipulating him. But I think Holtz did have some geniune affection for him.

Angel is an interesting case. He certainly loved Connor. They never got a chance to cut through the B.S. and connect. Until the end of season 5, that is. My gut feeling is on balance, Angel goes in the "positive" column.

FIREFLY. The only father we see is Simon's and River's. I think he's one for the "negative" column.

The portayal of Buffy's father has always intrigued me. We were told (a lot) what bastard he is, but it was all off-camera. We only see him for real once. We first see him as Buffy's nightmare (a scene that always tears my heart out), but it's not real. Later that episode he shows up for real and he's a good guy. And it's the only time he gets some solid screen time.

We see him again in when Willow's walking around in Buffy's head. We can assume Buffy's memory of Joyce and Hank, is it? coming home with baby Dawn is genuine (or the rewritten-by-monks genuine) and while he doesn't do much in that scene--he certainly comes across as positive. The next time is Buffy in the asylum which is not real, but again he's portrayed positively.

So we see him 4 times. Two of them aren't real but only once is he cast in a negative light and that's one of the times when it's not real.

We are told he's bad but the few times we see him he's good. Always thought that was an interesting contradiction. That and the writers were doing one of those things writers shouldn't do--which is saying it instead of showing it.

It's also interesting that--assuming Joss does have father issues--his chosen profession is the same as his father's (and his grandfather's). Ironic, eh?

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 4:47 AM

AMYEL


Hank was okay when we saw him, but he became a completely absentee father. (btw, you forgot another Hank appearance, in When She Was Bad). Buffy couldn't find him when Joyce died. He had moved off to Spain with his secretary and Buffy didn't have a correct phone number for him. That's a "bad thing." But then in season 6 the Scoobies were worried that Hank would take Dawn away if he figured out something was wrong by talking to the BuffyBot. So maybe they had had some contact with him recently if they thought that he would actually call.

Buffy had gone to visit her father semi-regularly up to season four, but then he disappeared. It could have just been a midlife crisis thing that made him disconnect himself from his daughters' lives and try something new with the secretary.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 6:09 AM

BATMARLOWE


Really, he's in "When She Was Bad"? I'm gonna have to check that out. I'm not trying to defend Hank, I'm just saying that all the bad stuff we know happened off-camera whereas when he actually saw him (or some representation of him) he came across as a decent guy. But I accept what they said about him off-camera as being the case and that he definitely goes in the negative column.

But I also suspect they made him a bad guy because if they didn't then he's an obvious solution after Joyce dies. And they needed a reason to keep him out of the picture.

I also felt a confrontation between Buffy and Hank would have been good to see. But post-"Normal Again". If we saw a bad Hank then it would have taken away from the ambiguity of "Normal Again", where we see a good Hank.

But, yeah Hank is definitely on list of the bad dads in the world of Joss Whedon.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 7:22 AM

AMYEL


Yeah, Hank was in quite a bit of When She Was Bad. She spent the whole summer with her father in Los Angeles. So that's why Xander and Willow were so freaked out by Buffy's behavior since they hadn't seen her at all in months. Anyways, Hank was there to drop her off or something. I just remember the conversation between Hank and Joyce about Buffy's weird mood.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 7:30 AM

JACQUI


Quote:

Originally posted by batmarlowe:
FIREFLY. The only father we see is Simon's and River's. I think he's one for the "negative" column.



But we do hear about Kaylee's dad. "My daddy says I have a natural talent!" (Out of Gas) and later (Objects In Space) where she refers to being caught with that boy. Yes, she claims that her daddy whupped her hard, but she doesn't sound entirely too traumatised by this, (more that she knew sleeping with fourteen year old boys with genetic abnormalities was wrong and she deserved the whuppin'), which I think we can mark him - along with Roger Burkle - into the good dad column.

Which makes 2 fathers in three series, 13 seasons of television.

Joss had Daddy Issues (maybe he needs Daddy tissues... sorry... Austin moment... ahem).

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 9:25 AM

BATMARLOWE


Just watched that scene, Amyel. And he really comes across as a good guy in that one too. I guess in a nutshell what I'm trying to say is making Hank a bad guy after what we'd seen onscreen felt contrived and convenient for the creators rather than organic.

But since they said it soooo often, we have to accept it. So Hank's in the bad dad column.

Jacqui: Kaylee's dad does sound supportive and they did let her go follow her dream. Not crazy about that whuppin', though. Still one for the "good dad" list.

And as I said, Angel...it's arguable either way but he wanted so badly his relationship with Connor to work out, that I'd put him on the "good" list. So that's 3 for me.

Oh, and Angel's dad. There's another one for the bad list.

Makes ya wonder how Joss will deal with these issues (because he MUST be aware of them) when it comes to the raising of his own children.

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Connor's hair...I should have appreciated it more
Fri, June 14, 2013 01:34 - 9 posts
So, that's finally it for Angel on TNT ?
Tue, August 21, 2012 01:09 - 1 posts
David Boreanaz' ho Rachel Uchitel had starring role in 9/11 Coverup
Tue, May 29, 2012 21:41 - 4 posts
Angel: "Give me a stake!" Cordy: "What? It's 8 in the morning."
Fri, March 9, 2012 12:33 - 2 posts
Vincent Kartheiser on the big screen - In Time
Mon, September 12, 2011 12:10 - 1 posts
Summer Glau on Angel
Sun, August 21, 2011 03:40 - 15 posts

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