M/I Fanfic Cliches by Steamer

BLUE SUN ROOM

M/I Fanfic Cliches

POSTED BY: STEAMER
UPDATED: Thursday, August 2, 2007 21:28
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VIEWED: 9584
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Friday, June 1, 2007 10:51 AM

As I was plowing ahead through the furrows (snerk snerk) of a multi-pairing fic, a thought struck me and here I toss it out for your collective wisdom.

In a Simon/Kaylee story, do you find that it's too cliche for Inara to try and give Mal some perspective on their relationship, possibly leading to a quarrel? This could be whether or not there's also an M/I romantic pairing in the story. Like for instance, Mal giving Simon and Kaylee the mean-old-man routine, only to have Inara rebuff him on the virtues of young love.

That's a concept I think I wanna avoid if it's too cliched. Any thoughts? For that matter, are there any other M/I cliches you can think of that you'd like to bring up?

River's fixing
Book is balking
Preacher man
Just keeps walking
FIREFLY

Captain of the New England Browncoats

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Friday, June 1, 2007 11:45 AM

NBZ

The thing about cliché's is if you do it well, no one will care. (as a point in mind, the TV show Dexter has a pretty cliché'd villain - but I have not heard a single complaint. It is carried through that well.)

It's only when done badly that people will jump on you.

Or you could set up the cliché but then not follow through... (could be lame)

In your specific example, Simon expects a threat or two. Mal refuses to entertain the notion and just walks on. Now that could be chilling. What does it mean?

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Friday, June 1, 2007 10:20 PM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by Steamer:

In a Simon/Kaylee story, do you find that it's too cliche for Inara to try and give Mal some perspective on their relationship, possibly leading to a quarrel? This could be whether or not there's also an M/I romantic pairing in the story. Like for instance, Mal giving Simon and Kaylee the mean-old-man routine, only to have Inara rebuff him on the virtues of young love.

I think this has been done before quite a bit. To avoid repeating a popular theme, you could twist it a little.

They might just... not fight about it. After all, love is a touchy subject for Mal and Inara and they're both perceptive enough to know that it might get ugly. Inara suddenly speaking up for love would be like an invite for Mal to turn the conversation on her own avoidance of it and Inara's too smart to set up herself like that.

Instead of making a stand for young love, Inara might take a different angle about, say, it being none of Mal's business because Simon and Kaylee are both adults.

Or, Mal might actually be pretty at peace with Simon/Kaylee, and just mess with both of them for laughs.

Or they could both come to the private, pessimistic agreement that foolishness must run its course. What if Inara herself isn't overtly optimistic about the longevity of Simon/Kaylee? But the two prove them wrong?

Many ways to liven up the basic idea of Mal and Inara talking about the subject of S/K. :)

As for cliches in general... ..discounting anything Mary-Sue related....

I would say anything that has Inara suddenly realizing that she doesn't like her job after all. Or having secretly hated it all along. That's just taking the easy way out for the writer.

Or post-"HoG" fics where any member of the crew tells Inara it's her duty to stay on the ship because her leaving makes Mal sad.

Or River reading their minds and telling either of them about the other's feelings.

But I LOVE the chivalry cliches! Mal giving Inara his coat to keep her warm? Total cliche but gets me every time.

Or the tea-in-the-galley-at-night cliche. Lovely set-up, even if everyone uses it.

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Friday, June 8, 2007 5:12 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

There is only one cliche that drives me nuts, no matter what the pairing, and that is the sappy happy ending. Most writers can get the chaos of the job and all close to right, but within the crew it's domestic bliss. True love and soulmates. Marriage and babies. Minor spats that end with rolls in the hay, if there's even conflict. Trouble hits the crew over and over, but they're all just fine, the strain doesn't show, and the love lives go swimmingly. Please! This is a Joss creation we're talking about, and very few of the relationships go smooth! And when they do go smooth, someone dies. I was reading the second visual companion, and a conversation with Joss was mentioned by one of the writers. They talked about Mal and Inara and how perfect it would be if they slept together, because then Mal would screw it up completely and it would make for really good drama. Yeah, that's right, some drama in the storytelling! How about that!
Most stories have the shiny-happy-perfect approach to the relationships onboard, and I do still read them, but I start to get kinda sick of that aspect.
Rant over.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Saturday, June 9, 2007 1:56 AM

PLATONIST

Mal already screwed-up with the Nandi nighter, leaving them both confused and Inara fleeing for cover. Because those two keep getting it wrong, but that's what is so fun about their nonrelationship.

Love doesn't neccessary equal togetherness in the happily-ever-after kinda way, but it makes for great storytelling.

Together or apart, their little love dance IS the drama.

The same could be said for Simon and Kaylee. Someone is bound to get hurt there, I'm guessing Kaylee.

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Saturday, June 9, 2007 2:11 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
The same could be said for Simon and Kaylee. Someone is bound to get hurt there, I'm guessing Kaylee.

The dramatic beauty of Simon and Kaylee, to me, is that Kaylee really tends to hurt herself, using Simon as a projection surface.

That's a Simon/Kaylee cliche that kills me. The "Simon is a boob" thing. Because.. he really isn't.

That works as a really beautiful way of forcing Kaylee to grow up, either to turn into someone who can handle another person, or by growing stronger through the pain of it not working out.

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Saturday, June 9, 2007 2:17 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
They talked about Mal and Inara and how perfect it would be if they slept together, because then Mal would screw it up completely and it would make for really good drama. Yeah, that's right, some drama in the storytelling! How about that!

Good point!

People keep focusing on Inara's committment issues as an obstacle in their relationship, and often ignore Mal's own issues.

Sleeping with Nandi wasn't a screw-up in the true sense because he was, at the time, convinced Inara really never would want him. It was a comfort thing that led him to finding out the truth.

A real screw-up would probably have more to do with trust and acceptance issues. Accepting Inara as she is (Companion and all), trusting her to mean what she says (if she overcame her fear of saying what she means).

I can easily see Mal waiting for the inevitable end of their relationship even while in it, and ending up hurting Inara because of that expectation and the connected resentment.

Mal's got abandonment issues about as large as a minor moon.

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Saturday, June 9, 2007 4:45 AM

NBZ

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Mal already screwed-up with the Nandi nighter,

I would have to disagree with that.

I actually see that as part opf that same discussion between Joss and the other writers about Mal screwing up. What if it was Inara that did so? It's the twist used.

They are not in a relationship and do not owe each other anything.

Inara sleeps with people for a living and Mal has to put up with it. Mal sleeps with someone once and Inara decides to leave.

I do not see that as a mistake by Mal. He had no commitments to Inara. Even if he did, what with her job, they would not exactly be "exclusive".

What would you have him do? Keep his virtue waiting for Inara to eventually see the light?

/Sorry for the rant.

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Saturday, June 9, 2007 5:25 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
Inara sleeps with people for a living and Mal has to put up with it. Mal sleeps with someone once and Inara decides to leave.

Mal's sleeping with Nandi was not the reason Inara left. It was a last push toward a decision she must have been contemplating for a long time.

Not to mention, Inara's job is a job. If she slept with an old friend of Mal's outside of a professional capacity, that'd be truly comparable. And I doubt Mal would have born that as well as he does her clients, which would have had the same level of rationality as Inara's tears.

If we insist on rationality, I mean. But there's a difference between rationally correct behavior and emotional entanglements, after all.

Mal hurts because Inara takes clients, Inara hurts because Mal slept with Nandi. It's not rational according to the perimeters of their relationship, but those are the emotional facts.

Their emotions take into account a more complex web than just the present status quo: the if's and maybe's.

Personal relationships navigate those irrational conditions and consequences, in order to avoid causing pain. That is why honesty is so important in complicated situations, and so difficult to do, because it exposes our own entanglements.

If Mal doesn't owe her anything, Inara can't be maligned for leaving, either, even if it breaks Mal's heart. Rationally sound. Emotionally, obviously, a minefield.

Quote:

I do not see that as a mistake by Mal. He had no commitments to Inara. Even if he did, what with her job, they would not exactly be "exclusive".

I don't think so. Her job is a job, after all. And a relationship would be separate from that. It'd be up to negotiation between the two, just like with any other couple.

Quote:

What would you have him do? Keep his virtue waiting for Inara to eventually see the light?

/Sorry for the rant.

If waiting for her to see the light is what he was doing, then... yes.

Sleeping with other people isn't waiting. It's moving forward with all options open. Different thing.

Just saying.

Not being with others signals a readiness and desire for committment. Sleeping with others doesn't, so it does make a difference in terms of "seeing the light" to the other person, really.

Mal was the one making relationship overtures, so his suddenly sleeping with Nandi - while ethically unquestionable - signaled a change in his stance to Inara. A stance she had enjoyed, even while not taking up on it, because it responded to her emotional desires. Loosing that offer of commitment hurts her, irrationally.

(What the relation between Mal's actual feelings and what it looked like to Inara was, is anyone's personal take.)

And if committment wasn't the issue between Mal and Inara, they would have had meaningless sex happily the moment they felt the need, methinks. So it's the irrational area that counts, not the rational one.

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Saturday, June 9, 2007 6:14 AM

PLATONIST

I should rephrase!

Mal didn't intentionally hurt Inara by sleeping with Nandi.

He failed to recognize Inara's true feelings for him because he takes everything she says to him at face value. He can't look below the surface because of his insecurities and prejudgements.
He is just being human and so is she when she guards her feelings for Mal, stashing them away in the shuttle.

It's like in The Wizard of Oz when Toto unveils the Wizard as an old human man.

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Saturday, June 9, 2007 7:21 AM

NBZ

I understand the lack of rationality etc (becasue... well... they are emotions... not really rational...), but it is still not a mistake.

I do not think either of them made relationship overtures to the other. I don't even see it as anything to do with insecurity or prejudgement. (but that could be just me. I asked for opinions on another forum before I almost "got" the ending of HoG...)

It made Inara realise what it would mean (for both of them) if they went down that road. She decided to run. I am not even calling that a mistake.

But because it is a job probably does not too much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

Everyone (yes, I am generalising) always thought it would be Mal who ups and runs because he cannot deal with Inara's fidelity. Joss showed the polar opposite.

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Saturday, June 9, 2007 8:38 AM

PLATONIST

Well that's just it nbz, I don't see it as a mistake or either one of them at fault.

They were both dishonest with their feelings. Mal actually realizes this first when he tries to come clean and truthsome (end HOG), but it's too soon or too late in Inara's case because she's already decided to do the bunnyhop (spare herself and Mal the messy entanglement) She's not ready to listen until perhaps the end of the BDM. When she realizes that being apart emotionally isn't solving their shared pain.

So, no I don't see either action (Nandi or Inara's run) as a mistake...just a misinformed screw-up.

Will M/I screw-up again? Probably! That's what their coming together subplot is all about. Will the viewers need a firmer resolution at some point. Absolutly! It's part of the story structure.

But, until then we have some good fanfic writers that explore their issues and resolve.

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Tuesday, July 24, 2007 9:39 AM

HERMITSREST

I love the Mal/Inara conflict, it's what attracts a lot of people to them as characters. I agree with Platonist's comments too. I find Inara the hardest character to write, but I still enjoy their on-off relationship.
As a fanfic writer I have no problem with writing cliches as long as it's done without cheesiness. By which I mean the construction still has to be believable (yes, I know it's sci-fi). In the same way I don't mind if people think my writing is predictable, as long as they enjoy the journey.
I agree with PhoenixRose about mushy though. Mushy and sappy is all very well, but you have to have conflict to balance. It's just Karma, man.
As a person I'm a glass-half-full kind of girl. As a writer I'm meaner. Bad shit happens - a lot - but climbing out of the mire (triumph over adversity) is something I love to read and write about. I keep the mush firmly under my boot when I write, although sometimes you slip on it, just like poo.

ri shao gou shi bing

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Wednesday, August 1, 2007 12:57 AM

SPACEANJL

The M/I is a great conflict relationship.

I don't see them ever getting it together, because of the big work issue.

Inara is a Companion. In her world, that is a respected, valued profession. To Mal, she sleeps with other men for money.

Mal is a man who values his freedom, has commitments to his crew to keep them safe. To Inara, he's a thief.

She can't walk away from a lifetime of training and a career she values, to do...what? She doesn't like to fight, values peace and order.

He can't walk away from his ship and his freedom, the crew he is responsible for, to...live on her earnings?

Two worlds. And both have too much to give up. If either of them did, there would be big-time resentment and that would take the relationship down.

Of course, neither of them are being rational in any way, because they are human. The big deal is Inara getting whiny because Mal might actually move on. There's a whole 'Verse of women out there, and a year or so of unrequited angst can get pretty dull after a while.

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Wednesday, August 1, 2007 7:30 AM

PLATONIST

Mal values freedom, yes...but Inara HAS freedom, especially emotional, spiritual, and definitely SEXUAL freedom (you go girl! luv ya!). She gets her strength from her freedom. It is her freedom and autonomy that she's holding onto when she leaves Serenity, not her job, considering, she dashes away from the Training House, without even a second glance. Her training and the Guild may be the freedom vehicle she is committed to ride on, but they don't define her as a person or create character choices or growth. That's why she rejects Atherton's offer. Inara wants to maintain her freedom ...and, decorate her beloved little shuttle with all her things. You can't put a dollar value on that.

Mal is bound by honor, loyalty, and responsibility to his crew. His 9 to 5 is as restrained as my accounting neighbor. In a way, he is trapped in and on Serenity. He has traded one prison for another. He doesn't move on emotionally. He has failed to make any lasting intimate emotional relationships. He doesn't know what he wants because he is an emotional mess. And he certainly doesn't know how to connect with the woman he wants (Inara), so he lets her go to maintain HER freedom and stares at her picture for six months!
Not too much with the moving on.

I think Mal and Inara could share and learn a few things from each other about freedom and love, and I don't know if they are meant to be in a fairytale kind of way. But Firefly isn't about fairytale relationships. It is about real people that argue and say and do the wrong things. And hurt each other unwillingly.

The real dullness for me is to have Mal in a one demensional relationship, with a women that is just like him, with the guns and attitude and all.
Let's face it, beyond gun talk, a few shots, and Nandi bragging about her "carving out a whorehouse" what could they have really created? A flying whorehouse?

Just another opinion

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Wednesday, August 1, 2007 7:52 AM

EMPIREX

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
In a way, he is trapped in and on Serenity. He has traded one prison for another. He doesn't move on emotionally. He has failed to make any lasting intimate emotional relationships. He doesn't know what he wants because he is an emotional mess. And he certainly doesn't know how to connect with the woman he wants (Inara), so he lets her go to maintain HER freedom and stares at her picture for six months!
Not too much with the moving on.

The real dullness for me is to have Mal in a one demensional relationship, with a women that is just like him, with the guns and attitude and all.
Let's face it, beyond gun talk, a few shots, and Nandi bragging about her "carving out a whorehouse" what could they have really created? A flying whorehouse?

You made me laugh, Platonist! "A flying whorehouse." Classic!

I agree with your estimation of Mal and Inara's relationship. I don't think it would work unless both were willing to make some big sacrifices. But in love, sometimes you have to make those sacrifices, no? Who knows where Joss and Tim would have taken them? I hope we'll find out one day. Till then, we've got fanfic, baby!

Patsy: When you were two years old, we tied you to the central reservation of a motorway.

Edina: But you were like a homing pidgeon, sweetie....back within a week!

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Wednesday, August 1, 2007 8:42 AM

HOPERULES

Sleeping with rich people for money, telling them what they want to hear, and pretending you connect with them even though you don't really know them are not actions that represent my idea of freedom, sexual or otherwise. To me they seem more like letting people use you for money and selling chucks of yourself. It is hard to see Inara as free when she can't act on her obvious feelings for Mal.

I have to agree with you about the dullness and unlikelihood of the Mal/female Mal relationship. If he and Inara don't work it out, I don't see him falling for a girl who is basically him with breasts.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Wednesday, August 1, 2007 9:36 AM

PHAEDRA

The question of Inara's freedom really turns on how one views prostitution/being a companion. If you think that using your body as a comodity is anti-freedom, then yes "sleeping with rich men and telling them what they want to here" makes Inara, in Mal's words, a slave.

However, all forms of employment, particularly legitimate ones, require a person to "whore" themselves on a regular basis. You smile at your boss when you just want to flip them off. You go to your office and are trapped there, when you'd rather be at the beach. So what makes Inara different from any other professional? If the answer is duh she sells sex; well then what's wrong with that as long as it is her choice? As a lawyer, I feel a particular affinity with prostitutes since we both screw people for a living and charge by the hour.

Is it something about the use of her body that makes it somehow repugnant? Is it the concept of being penetrated? Mal gets shot everyother episode yet no one call's him a slave for being repeatedly penetrated with metal.

In my opinion, Inara is one of the most liberated characters on the show. She chooses her clients (that's guild law). She doesn't tell them what they want to hear, so much as what they need to hear, i.e. Fess Higgins and the Council-Woman. When one is blessed enough to be chosen by Inara, they recieve both the benefits of her body and her brain. Moreover, as her interactions with various clients (excluding the ass in the first episode and Atherton) demonstrate that she has a deep level of empathy for them. She seems to derive pleasure beyond realm of the merely hedonic (of course there's nothing mere about a really good orgasim)by bringing them pleasure.

To push the envelope a little further, I would say that its her level of liberation that is partially problematic for Mal. In a sense he envy's her freedom. (There's also that pesky Alliance connection, there's nothing worse than panting after the enemy). Unlike the rest of the characters who are bound to the ship through either hyper loyalty or sheer necessity, Inara can leave at any time. For someone with clear control, loss and abandoment issues like Mal, that's a palpable threat.

Inara's freedom is kind of interestingly reflected in her shuttle which not only spacially seperates her from the crew, but also detaches from Serenity itself. Mal's need to reasert control over this space and by extension Inara is reflected in his constant unannounced invasions and their arguments over whose shuttle it really is.

Moreover, she often uses her freedom as a bargaining chip in fighting with Mal. In episode one she threaten's to leave if her turns Simon and River out. Inara's one of the few crew members (except for Jayne which is a seperate essay) who will actively and openly challenge Mal. She also has more say than the other's in where Serenity goes, since she has the only other and presumedly more successful business on the ship. Mal is, oddly enough, often in the position of a client having bargain and compromise inorder to retain her capital and presence (and all the pleasure he derives from it) on the ship.

Career and criminality aside Mal and Inara will always have relationship problems because they are both fiercly independent and loving someone means losing a bit of yourself. For individuals like them, that level of surrender is not acceptable.

Phaedra (a bad luck name)

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Wednesday, August 1, 2007 10:33 AM

HOPERULES

I guess I'm just a romantic who feels that sex should be something more than just another business transaction. If I were Inara, I think I would feel used up because I was always giving myself to strangers who only gave money in return. After being a companion for awhile, I probably would not be able to feel anything at all and I am sure I would not feel free. To me, selling sex is not the same as selling legal services because sex is extremely intimate act that says something about your feelings for person you're doing it with and that person's feelings for you, even if those feelings are just honest, no strings attached, mutual lust.

Also, if Inara is so free why doesn't she just jump Mal's bones? It seems like she wants him and Mal has proven susceptible to the wiles of others with similar training.

Finally, as far as I can tell the crew can quit and leave Serenity at any time as long as it is not in the middle of a job. I don't think Mal is holding any of them prisoner.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Wednesday, August 1, 2007 11:45 AM

PLATONIST

Quote:
Originally posted by Hoperules:
I guess I'm just a romantic who feels that sex should be something more than just another business transaction. If I were Inara, I think I would feel used up because I was always giving myself to strangers who only gave money in return. After being a companion for awhile, I probably would not be able to feel anything at all and I am sure I would not feel free. To me, selling sex is not the same as selling legal services because sex is extremely intimate act that says something about your feelings for person you're doing it with and that person's feelings for you, even if those feelings are just honest, no strings attached, mutual lust.

I agree and I am in no way denying that Inara doesn't have some serious issues to consider, like her job, losing some of her freedom weighed against her love for Mal and Serenity.

None of us can have everything. At some point soon, looking at their BDM resolution, she will have to choose and sacrifice what doesn't work for her anymore. After all, strong relationships and families take work and sacrifice. Mal also, would need to consider safer and not so reckless jobs. A compromise, maybe?

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Wednesday, August 1, 2007 4:40 PM

HOPERULES

I agree compromise would be in their future if they are going to be together. First, they would have to realize they need each other. Then the day would come when they'd have to figure out how to fit their lives together. In words of Jayne Cobb, "That'll be an interesting day." I like to think they would work it out, but it's tricky.

P.S. Sorry if I take this stuff too seriously. I tend to do that. I would not let my son be Darth Maul (bad guy) for Halloween and he is still not allowed to wear t-shirts with skulls (death) no matter how cool they are.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 5:09 AM

MAL4PREZ

I just have to throw this in - who's to say that the reason Inara doesn't make her move with Mal is because she's a Companion? I mean, that's certainly an issue they'd need to deal with, because Mal obviously has a problem with it, but I feel like whatever's blocking her goes much deeper than that...

If only the series had run it's full term and given up all these secrets. *sad sigh*

Oh, and Platonist, re: "In a way, he is trapped in and on Serenity. He has traded one prison for another. He doesn't move on emotionally." Sooo true, and what a good point. I mean, it seems most folks (including me!) have taken Mal's love for his ship to be a purely wonderful happy thing, but it's got a darkness to it. Big darkness. He named it after the event that destroyed him for heaven's sake! Talk about not able to move on...

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 9:28 PM

JETFLAIR

I've nothing useful to contribute, and as a fic writer I'm far from being brave enough to try my hand at Mal/Inara. But I wanted to let all of you know I've enjoyed reading your thoughts greatly.

Theirs is a complex non-relationship with potential for disaster or great beauty, and quite possibly both at once.

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

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